The women who have sex with gay men will now be safe - but not from Stonewall

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-19T06:30:24+00:00

You dismissed the point of my posts twice to rehash a disagreement

If you want to trademark sounding like a broken record, go ahead. Surely none of us can compete with you on what you do best.

Olympic levels of projection.

and complain that I don't care about lesbians' feelings. You're noticing things about me now, apparently.

🤣 Says the dope who just quoted herself lecturing me on empathy and seems to have joined a group about lesbian-gay-bi solidarity for ironic reasons?

Why do I want to keep talking to you? I'm moving on.

Idk maybe because you’re here to start s/BDropTheLGT? Or because you lack self-control and never miss an opportunity to show your ass?

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-19T01:54:45+00:00

No, I don’t think that would be any reasonable person’s takeaway.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-19T01:04:12+00:00

A while back I typed out a response to your comment that I described above and then ended up deleting it before I could post it because ultimately I did not think it was productive. I thought you were acting hypocritical af and exhibiting as much of a blindspot and grudge as you were accusing myself and others of having.

But what you don’t seem to realize is that “lesbian” is not really an important “identity” for me. The only person I tend to refer to myself as such to is my girlfriend. There is nothing on the public record attaching my name or face to the word “lesbian” or “gay.” I’m out in that I openly date women, and I engage in public displays of affection with women. But I never made any public statement on social media or otherwise about being “gay” or a “lesbian” or “LGBTQ” or whatever. So I think probably a lot of people do assume I am bisexual because I was in a long-term relationship with a man, and that is on the public record. But people making that assumption about me doesn’t bother me at all and it would not an unreasonable assumption to make.

My point is I don’t feel like I’m engaged in some homosexual vs bisexual or lesbian vs bi woman battle. That seems to be more your lens than mine and you’re projecting it on me. I view same-sex attraction as one thing with different strains. I view the sameness before the differences. I recognize that we have overlapping interests and experiences but not identical ones. I want there to be some semblance of LGB solidarity that exists independent of gender identity. That’s why I’m here. To learn about what others are going through.

I’m willing to listen, and I don’t apply different standards to people in here based on their sexual orientation but sometimes that information is helpful in understanding where they’re coming from, and potential biases, and blindspots.

But I do know why I found a number of your comments notable and that was because you didn’t seem to care or understand how [insert emotion here] it is for people to tell us homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and how absurd that feels based on our own life experiences. I initially noticed it when you tried to call me out for suggesting that a person who was literally preaching to us that he is attracted to both sexes but chooses to be with one for moral reasons and that therefore we must be attracted to both sexes too and that our homosexuality was inherently a choice, is bisexual.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T23:32:39+00:00

Glad it resonated. I try to keep myself grounded in the real world and thinking about practical solutions and consequences. I aim to develop practical rules for myself that are a general starting point but are subject to change if the right circumstances present themselves (which now that I think about it is how the common law system we have in America works). I don’t want to be swindled by charlatans and I don’t want to get caught in the web of reactionaries of any kind either. Activists play an important role in keeping issues in the public consciousness but to implement policies that have to balance the interests of greater society and a number of people with varying amounts of political power, it’s dangerous to just let an activist/ideologue implement their vision whole-cloth. It’s simply not in their nature to be thinking about everyone else’s interests.

I’m also reminded of the “Just So” children’s stories and their like. They give plausible stories and explanations for how things developed and why they are the way they are. But they’re all made up. Just because something sounds right doesn’t make it right or accurate and while it feels good to have simple explanations and solutions for complex and stressful problems. I feel like ideologies are prone to this.

For example, when radfems say that men prefer no body hair because their preferences are pedophilic in nature. Like nah fam, as a lesbian I don’t like body hair on women (or men). I’m just very tactile and sensitive to texture (in both good and bad ways) and it’s not visually appealing on women or men. But pedophilic? Christ.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T21:08:46+00:00

From a legal standpoint I’m worried about this becoming bad law that affects us. People like him want to conflate trans with gay for personal gain, ride our coattails or take us down with them if they can’t. But as we’ve seen time and time again, when it’s to their benefit they are happy to throw gay people under the bus.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T21:05:00+00:00

Lol then I direct people to my other comment in this thread about the ironic symbolism in that.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T20:58:24+00:00

In Tuesday's ruling, Denver District Judge A. Bruce Jones said Autumn Scardina was denied a cake that was blue on the outside and pink on the inside to celebrate her gender transition on her birthday because of her transgender status in violation of the law.

I mean if we stick with the blue/pink dichotomy (they LOVE fossilizing gender stereotypes), then it would be more accurate to have a MtF transition be represented by blue on inside and pink on the outside. Because no matter how they cosmetically alter their body to look like the opposite sex, their internal biology remains that of their actual sex.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T20:35:51+00:00

Well I’m glad you typed all that out so I didn’t have to.

My other thoughts are, if you all haven’t seen Jazz Jennings’s transition cake and how they had that child simulate cutting a penis, you really need to (🍆 ✂️ basically). My further thoughts are that other than that cake, how common are transition cakes and what do they consist of?

My gut instinct is that they are likely to be extremely regressive in gender stereotyping, even more so than the baby showers and gender (sex) reveal parties these days they’re always whining about. When most people just want to learn information about the baby that makes the baby seem more real and to foster closeness when the baby is “not there yet” for most people other than the mother.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T20:14:26+00:00

I think most people here of a non-Orangina (and a few others) variety would be OK with discussing both, but I think you are oversimplifying what other people have said and what you have said, which is complete denial that there are bisexual people in denial (or who don’t realize they are bisexual) contributing to scenarios like this or seem to realize how that can happen or why other people could reasonably come to that conclusion without hating bisexual people. Instead you accused me and other people who are reasonable and compassionate and interested in learning about bisexual issues of acting like bisexuals are “dirty” or that bisexuality is a dirty secret.

You even accused me of being a bisexual in denial (but also denied that anyone could be) and acted like I have some sort of anti-bisexual agenda, which I think the long-time bisexual contributors here would find as ludicrous as I do.

You also seem to misinterpret my longstanding curiosity at understanding the differences in experiences and issues between and among each group in here (lesbians, bi women, bi men, and gay men) as a bad thing. I am especially curious about the differences between bisexual women and lesbians because like a lot of bisexual and lesbian women, I have given thought about which one most accurately described my experiences. All the more reason for me to have the compassion for both groups that I have.

But as I’ve said in comments to you and/or others, in order to protect the interests of all of LGB and understand and support the unique interests of each group, we need to be able to delineate ourselves and work from a common set of definitions and understandings.

Also, I’ve been very open on here, in s/lesbians, and through pms about my coming out journey and process, including my limited experiences with men and my prior heterosexual marriage, so if I’m afraid of being called or considered a bisexual, my strategy leaves something to be desired. And if someone does think I’m one, I’d be more curious as to what made them draw that conclusion.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T17:34:52+00:00

A lot of what is holding us back is media conditioning. I do mean conditioning in the literal sense. Democrats are above reproach and unreachable.

Oh absolutely. If I didn’t come face to face with the girldick squad, I would be stuck in the morass too. It’s not going to make me a Republican but it’s sure as hell going to get me to think critically about how I’ve come to the political positions I have and whether or not my interests are being represented by the people who I’ve voted for and claim to support my interests.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T17:27:44+00:00

I mean I think it’s both really.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T17:25:09+00:00

I think it’s a perfect storm of social justice dogma not just or exclusively feminism, and there are different strains of feminism. At this point I don’t adhere to any of them and don’t want to outsource my thinking to any ideology, but I do agree with a lot of points and goals.

Anyway, just keep in mind that there are a lot of people thinking this about gay people as a result of gender ideology and I think we need to think and talk about why that is. Of course supporting gay rights now doesn’t mean we can’t talk about whether we would or should have done things differently before and how the gay rights movement led to this (not that I think it was inevitable). We do need to talk about how and why the T got added, by whom, and why we went along with it and didn’t question it (for those of us who didn’t question it).

So “funny” isn’t the word I would use but it’s a point worth making, and it’s not totally wrong. Sigh.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T17:16:19+00:00

I will break with a lot of the other women in here and say that I think this does demotivate a lot of men but also in my experience it’s easier to convince men (rather than women) that there’s something rotten in the state of gender identity but it’s much harder to convince them to care and that it’s not merely a fringe issue, other than maybe as a free speech concern. And while they can recognize the conflict with free speech, they also feel like they have less need to speak about it because they’re not seeing the frequent incursion into their lives or the language they are expected to use to describe themselves and their own lives. So you can see how that also contributes to a sense of them thinking women are blowing this out of proportion.

So while I find more gay men than gay women are able to see the trans nonsense for what it is, they also have more of an ability to opt out of it (though increasingly less so).

On the woman side it’s like a lot of us are living in the dark in isolation worried about how this will affect our friendships and ability to find partners. And the rest of gay women don’t even realize the amount of us living in fear and they don’t know because we’re afraid to tell them because we’re not sure if they will treat us like an enemy or not, so it’s easier for them to dismiss that this is happening.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-18T09:45:12+00:00

I’ve unfortunately come to have distaste for “reclaiming” the word. It’s usually used as a slur against more masculine lesbians, which I am not. My girlfriend doesn’t like the word because it has been used against her a lot in her life including within the last year, whereas it really doesn’t get wielded against me. And for people who call themselves that proudly, I’ve come to associate it with MtFs and political lesbians (basically, non-lesbians).

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-17T20:11:46+00:00

Moments ago I was just referred to as an “LGBTQ person” in the singular at work. 🤮 So I’m apparently doing a pretty fucking bad job at it.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-17T12:33:20+00:00

All I can think is this person is not in touch with reality for so many reasons, looks super young, and yet some surgeon removed her breasts so she can do what without them? This? Why are they allowed to removing the body parts of the mentally unwell? I do agree that the only “SRS” procedures that should be allowed to happen are those performed on people who must first acknowledge the reality and immutability of their sex, be educated on the risks, complications, and experimental nature of these procedures.

So yes she’s a creep, but she’s a creep that’s been enabled by all sectors of our society to encourage and affirm her thinking and to believe she’s being discriminated against.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T20:17:22+00:00

My annoyance is the gay community at large saying one thing and then doing another.

While it’s certainly not a uniquely gay issue some have made an Olympic sport of this. It’s a purity spiral of everyone trying to be more open-minded and inclusive than the next person until their brains have fallen out and the entire alphabet is forcibly attached to LGB.

Anyway, I have wanted to make a post like this for a while, about common hypocrisies we observe among LGB people. I would say I’ve observed gay women getting indignant at the dies of being presumed to be straight while simultaneously assuming every woman she meets is straight as a default unless proven otherwise.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T20:03:13+00:00

Sorry to clarify I don’t mean the people in the hijacked LGBT and trans subs but rather the enablers, enforcers, and the mindless affirmers who think they’re closer to the issues than they are. The ones who think they’re allies in a battle for life and death. They are often young and female in my experience, or just young (since Reddit is overwhelmingly not female).

I really do feel like this group of people has a very different sense of what “gay” is and think of it more as an esoteric internal identity, a lifestyle, and/or a set of stereotypes and prescribed roles (e.g., this top/bottom nonsense among young lesbians). No wonder “homosexuality” sounds like a bad word to them. And it is inherently suspect when L G or B have criticism ld Q or T but ragging on and denigrating LGB is a TQ pastime.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T13:00:53+00:00

Thank you for doing this! I don’t remember how I found LGBDroptheT but I remember that what finally peaked me was me actively looking for answers and trying to underhand gender ideology and going straight to the trans subreddits themselves and searching around GCDebatesQT to try to see both sides. The fact that they banned the debate subreddit is all you need to know. When I discovered LGBDroptheT (I think in February 2020) I was looking for an island of sanity because once you peak, everything suddenly makes sense and it becomes intolerable to try to stay afloat in those censorious bubbles that preach love and inclusion while acting extremely aggressive, intolerant, delusional, and exclusionary.

And really what I needed was to be around other LGB and actual allies of LGB. Our voices were sorely missing from the discourse yet our spaces and institutions were in shambles.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T07:39:04+00:00

Fam, this isn’t a high school debate. No point in responding to each unique way in which you misconstrued the core elements of my own comments based on flawed logical reasoning, and somehow convince yourself in the process that I’m the one denying the realm of possibilities in which various lesbians can and do have sex and get off. Particularly when you didn’t substantively respond to all the points I and others raised. I’m not the one who’s saying that lesbians who experience pleasure or orgasm from the specific type of penetration for which a strap-on is necessary (or among a limited range of similar possibilities) might as well fuck the men who want to wear their skin.

Nor am I denying the way in which your body gets off. Like what? I enjoy some penetration too but don’t get much out of penetration by strap-on specifically because out of the various types of penetration in existence that I was apparently supposed to provide an encyclopedia of in order to provide an acceptable response, that’s not the kind of penetration that does it for me. And as I mentioned I’m personally incapable of getting off from penetration (of any kind) alone. None of this is a denial of any lesbian’s own experience.

So continue your strap-on free sex life, let’s leave this looney tunes thread behind, and let’s just all move the hell on.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T06:42:59+00:00

My thoughts exactly. Allowing same-sex marriage also facilitated LGB to form more stable family and social units. It fosters community.

What’s the difference between “you can get married, just to a member of the opposite sex like everyone else” and “trans people can play sports, just with their biological sex like everyone else?” I would say (1) the purpose of the institution and (2) whether or not there’s a conflict of rights to be reconciled.

For the first point, the question is whether or not same-sex marriage is consistent with the purpose of civil marriage in a modern society. You can debate what kinds of partnerships the state should recognize, why, and how. And we did.

For the second point, allowing same sex marriage doesn’t affect anyone else’s marriage or the rights and privileges they get from their marriages. There’s no conflict of rights other than in contexts involving alleged conflicts with sincerely held religious beliefs. But we’re not talking about requiring religious institutions to perform or recognize same-sex marriages. At least I’m not.

In contrast the gender identity movement mostly has nothing to do with civil rights or any kind of right as we ordinarily think of it. Rather, it’s a system of belief that demands constant demonstrations of belief and loyalty and seeks to redefine even the most fundamental aspects of other human beings, their relationships, and their social interactions even when a trans person isn’t involved. This inherently implicates several conflicts of rights and interests, but proponents refuse to recognize the interests and rights of others at stake. And therefore they assume (project) any attempt by another group or individual to defend an existing right as inherently motivated by bigotry.

For same sex rights, I do regret lazy tactics, advocacy, and sloganeering but I did participate in actual debate in which need I nor my opponents sought to prevent the other from being able to have a job, get an education, or participate in society.

I think we failed to see how trendy we would become to the point of straight people trying to become and replace us.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T06:13:39+00:00

Consider also that Reddit’s userbase skews younger and kids are absolutely being taught sexual orientation in a way where up is down. Does the younger generation actually know what gay, lesbian, bisexual, and straight are?

How many articles are there about men having sex with trans-identified males being totes straight? And how some lesbians have penises and can get other lesbians pregnant?
Or the feckless and delusional misandrist fake lesbian women in r/AL who claim they “love dicks, just not when they’re attached to men.” These are the people controlling the discourse about what the sexual orientations are and whining about gatekeeping and inclusivity. But where are the articles with headlines telling lesbian trans men that they’re totes straight and have transed away their gay and can now have heterosexual sex and relationships with women? Or headlines trying to convince lesbians that they’re straight or bisexual now their female partners identify as straight men? I guess that’s just a little too on the nose. They know there are more gay and bi men who would love to indulge their same-sex attraction while cloaking it with the label of heterosexuality and arming them with moral high ground to beat others over the head with should they question the shiny veneer or heterosexuality.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T05:57:39+00:00

The culture comes last. It didnt matter what the culture was, it flows from whatever the hell gay people say it is and that if gay people didnt exist, then her identity wouldnt exist.

Yes. All in all, I identify with little of gay or lesbian culture. In part it is because I came out later so I did not grow up within gay spaces or around a lot of gay people. But another part of it was that I didn’t identify with what was being presented to me as “gay” or “lesbian” and so I thought what I was feeling must be something else. And “bisexual” did not seem accurate either.

It took me a longass time to meet a single out lesbian and even longer to meet one I could relate to. The FtM’s idea that she “would know she’s gay” even if she never met another human being seems ludicrous and mirrors the transbians saying they knew the heterosexual sex they were having was “queer” or that they loved women in a “queer” way. Nothing feels “queer” about my sexual or romantic interactions with women. I’m just very attracted to women on a visceral and psychological level. But it just feels normal and natural, not queer. I feel none of that toward men. I have no drive or interest beyond friendship. I feel like if I had not been presented with pervasive examples of heterosexuality in my life it would never have occurred to me that I should try to partner with a man.

It’s the sum of this that makes me know I’m gay. But I did need to be shown what it looked like for two women to be together in order to recognize my feelings as indications that I was exclusively attracted to women and should actively partner with women (and not just think about it). I never “felt gay.” I still do not “feel gay.” I have zero internal feeling of gay identity. A lot of the time I don’t even think of myself as gay or lesbian or include myself mentally when I hear those words. I definitely don’t think “we” when I hear “the LGBT(Q) Community” and feel even more isolated from it by the day.

The idea that if you’re gay you just know independent of anything else was harmful to me. And it’s also a total nonsense. And if you have an internal gay identity but you are not homosexual and are in fact heterosexual, no fucking wonder you feel dysphoria from trying to utilize tired stereotypes to shove yourself into a box that was not meant for you.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T05:24:36+00:00

So they lacked the words and didn’t feel a life-dependent need for hormones and various cosmetic procedures? And giving them the words created a life or death need for hormones and plastic surgery? Maybe we should phase out those words. . . .

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T03:11:22+00:00

Nope not that one but thanks anyway.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T02:35:32+00:00

I note only the standard rainbow flag being wielded in pictures. None of the woke flags because there is no benefit for outsiders to identify in and hijack infrastructure.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-16T02:24:48+00:00

Totally agree. If I make substantive and impactful contributions to this discourse, one or the primary areas will be through highlighting and explaining the historical revisionism involved. “LGBT(Q) community” just became a thing in recent years. It’s even more obvious in the UK where Stonewall didn’t even add the T until 2014. How interesting though that the acronym ends after T or Q when talking about history. That’s an implicit recognition that current “community” we are deemed to be a part of is a recent invention, so why should it be worthy of censure and censorship to point out that TQ were also latecomer additions added from the top down.

But what really confuses me is the people who have been participating in the gay community and frequenting gay spaces and involved in gay orgs long enough to know there were not these hetero trans, non/binaries, or even this amount of homosexual trans in those spaces even a decade ago. They know they never socialized with such people and such people were not beside them in the fight for gay rights. So where so they think they came from? When did they start noticing them there? When did they start saying “LGBT” instead of “gay” or “same sex?” When did they hear the phrase “gender identity” for the first time. When did they start noticing their gay friends and community members transitioning or changing pronouns? I can forgive the youngest for lacking the personal knowledge and for being saturated with this propaganda from an early age.

The problem is we are not like other minority groups. We don’t come from gay families. We don’t have gay families to retreat to. We don’t have gay parents to tell us about gay history. We get lumped together with a bunch of unrelated things like no other group, and unlike other groups we are not allowed to talk openly about our own experiences. We must be subservient to others and prioritize their needs and “their truth.” No one is deferring to gay people on gay issues. We are told we have no unique issues. That we have everything we need and are privileged now. And because we were born into gay families, we overly depend on this community from whom we seek role models and support. Our institutions were ripe for the taking and our communities were ripe for cannibalization and misappropriation by outside interests.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-15T20:30:34+00:00

these straight people feel entitled to sexually pursue others based on biological sex, while forbidding homosexuals to do the same. . . . gender-based-attraction-for-thee-but-not-for-me.”

You are so good at distilling down the genderfuckery to their underlying “logic.” Allowing only trans people open sex-based attraction while everyone else gets held to the standards of gender-identity-based on Self-ID attraction. And it’s everyone else who’s obsessed with genitals and has a fetish, and also sex-based attraction by non-trans people is the only “fetish” or “kink” that is permissible to shame.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-15T19:46:37+00:00

The lower our boundaries are, the less they feel the need to transition.

This is consistent with my observations, particularly on the heterosexual FtM side. I have also noted it among homosexual MtFs for whom sexual access to men they perceive as straight seems to drive a lot of their transition decisions. A lot get told “if you didn’t have a penis, then it wouldn’t be a problem” by men they don’t seem to grasp are trying to let them down as easily and non-confrontationally as possible without meaning it. It seems that many of them don’t have any issue with their genitalia other than the hindrance they believe it poses to them finding a fulfilling relationship. As someone said on here recently, “they want to be seen as chicks, not chicks with dicks.” Hence it is other people’s perceptions of them that drive transition decisions including and especially the decision to get genital surgery. It’s strange because I can understand not wanting to be fetishized but at the same time their is so much commentary about not wanting men to be attracted to their penises. It destroys the illusion that they are with a straight man and if they’re not with a straight man than there is too high a risk that they’re not being seen as a woman. With all of this hyperfixation on other peoples’ perceptions, no wonder they’re dysphoric.

A while back someone on here or s/GC linked a video of an Australian HSTS and I found his YouTube channel to be a fascinating (but also sad and other times angering) look into his mindset. In the linked video, he was complaining about dating as a TW. His other videos revealed that he had no discomfort with his genitalia, only wanted genital surgery to attracted straight men, didn’t even know what female genitalia looked like, and had a friend tell him that the photos he was using as a model for his surgically altered genitalia was terrible and didn’t look anything like female genitalia, and he apparently had no idea.

As an aside: He complained in a video about a situation where he stealthed a straight man and revealed his male status right before sex was about to occur, which did then occur after the man was taken aback, and the next day the man said he felt extremely uncomfortable with what happened and didn’t want to see him again and he acted incredulous and like he was the one who had been wronged. Total lack of empathy. Wish I could find this channel again.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-15T17:35:23+00:00

So since dysphoria as it is currently being used means fuck all, we should try saying without any elaboration that transbians’ penises and gaydens’ vaginas make us feel dysphoric. Why can their genitalia give them but not us dysphoria? Especially when so many transbians have said they only want “cis lesbians” because their fellow transbians’ penises give them dysphoria.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-15T17:21:42+00:00

So lesbians might as well be fingered and have their pussies eaten by men too? After all men have fingers and mouths.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-15T13:01:34+00:00

Further to my other comment, do you see the problem with the converse of what you’re saying? That is the rhetoric that gay men should be attracted to biological females who wear strap-ons. If this were the case, many gay men and lesbians could frolick into the sunset together never having to worry about homophobia again unless they were to, you know, choose to indulge our fetishes for natural, biological sex parts.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-15T12:24:08+00:00

This is such a weird comment for a lesbian to make. I think you're just projecting the way your body experiences pleasure onto others. That's no better than people saying that because they are attracted to both sexes and have a preference for one, that every straight or gay person chooses to be gay or straight.

Lesbians are attracted to women and women alone both when sex is occurring and when it isn't. Lesbians are attracted to female bodies, including and especially female genitalia. I don't know any lesbians who are attracted to sex toys whether or not they use them. Strap-ons are sex toys that are temporarily attached to women who have female bodies 100% of the time. The woman wearing it still has a vagina, vulva, breasts, a female skeleton with wider hips and butt, and other female sex characteristics. What penises and strap-ons have in common are that they are both shaped to fit inside a vagina and many women regardless of the sex or sexes they are attracted to experience pleasure from penetration. I don't know any lesbians who use dildos that are even shaped or made to resemble penises, but let me know if you do.

Many women orgasm from penetration and there are women who orgasm primarily from penetration. My girlfriend is in this latter category and is very obviously and indisputably a lesbian, definitely not attracted to men/male bodies, and would never be attracted to transbians who have obviously male bodies whether artificially altered or not. I also used to think women like her were a myth. In contrast, I'm incapable of orgasming from penetration alone so yea, strap-ons are not going to get the job done for me. Strap-ons/dildos and other sex toys are tools. No more. No less. Not evidence of attraction to biological males.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-15T11:58:36+00:00

Thanks Sue! I appreciate that you connected together a lot of the issues I've been trying to share with anyone whose ear I have including other gay people and sympathetic friends and family of all political backgrounds.

Warning I need to streamline this . . .

I've been thinking that we need a rebranding and need to step away from centering our concerns on "identities", but unfortunately this makes discussions sound more clinical, long-winded and less personal even if it's more accurate. But when we frame the issue as LGB vs. TQ, a lot gets lost in translation in our current political climate due to queer theory and gender identity ideology confusing people about the overwhelmingly sex-based nature of sexual orientation resulting in a lot of legitimate LGB people (meaning they are actually same-sex attracted) now affirmatively identifying exclusively or concurrently with TQ. In many cases actual gay/lesbian people are now considering themselves "straight" through gender identity ideology and gay, lesbian, bisexual, heterosexual, and asexual people are now all "queer" through gender identity ideology and there's no common factual trait that unites them altogether.

Further, to frame the issue as being about sexual orientation vs. gender identity, we end up obscuring the specific issues related to same-sex attraction at play and the disproportionate impact of gender identity ideology on same sex-attracted people regardless of their identity. So I think I'm now going to frame the two relevant categories that are in tension within the "LGBTQ+ community": (1) issues of same-sex attraction and same-sex rights and (2) issues of gender identity and political demands and goals associated with gender identity ideology.

But that gets me to my main point. I know the word "sex" is still considered dirty, hence people using "gender" when intending to refer to biological sex. But I think we need a rebranding of LGB institutions, organizations, and infrastructure as specifically focused on same-sex issues (i.e. same-sex attraction, same-sex behavior, same-sex rights, and homophobia) rather than on lesbian, gay, and bisexual identities. One unfortunate problem is that people with little to no skin in the game are controlling the dialogue based on identity or extant attraction alone and then play the victim (i.e. people who have no need for same-sex rights whether because they're either (1) heterosexual or (2) bisexual but have never had same-sex partners or actual interest in same sex-partners, which does not make them not bisexual but does make them less proximate to issues of same-sex rights).

We need to analyze and talk about the underlying issues in factual, observable sex-based terms rather than exclusively identity terms, and focus on practical needs not ideology and thought control IMO. This means in analyzing and discussing issues breaking things down to biological sex of individuals, the biological sex(es) they are attracted to, and even on top of that you can add in gender identity identification to see where the trends are. From what I have observed, the kids who are getting kicked out of their houses, even if they adopt some sort of trans-identification (whether before or after being kicked out), the real reason is homophobia. And based on my observations and interactions with my local LGBT population, the most disproportionate victims are black biological males who are attracted to other biological males and have engaged in homosexual behavior or are at least suspected of it. Are heterosexual kids who identify as transgender or adopt some other gender identity getting kicked out of their homes anywhere? I've never heard of such a thing. Has anyone else?

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-14T16:38:57+00:00

So who isn’t part of LGBT+ now? Can they formally evict openly homosexual people finally?

This shows how nonsensical this all is. And who is even deciding who gets added to the acronym and when? Can you name a single person who can accurately recite what LGBTQQIP2SAA stands for, much less explain how they got there?

How does it possibly make sense that we all have this shared community and history when they keep adding and changing the meaning of the letters? And why are we considered bigots for saying “hey this isn’t actually a community that exists anywhere and this doesn’t represent my interests.” I got banned from the hobby subreddit that I go to occasionally the other day because of this. Imagine someone putting Indonesians, Fijians, New Zealanders, and Moroccans in one identity group and censoring and de-platforming Moroccans for saying “this doesn’t make sense, we have little interests in common, and my needs and goals are being ignored in this forced alliance.”

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-14T14:05:25+00:00

This is a helpful list to have on hand. I would propose one edit: “people with a paraphilia-- AGP or AAP-- or who otherwise fetishize lesbians and gays as a result of their consumption of hardcore or soft core pornography and/or erotica, often but not always or exclusively anime-based (e.g, sissy porn, lesbian porn, Yuri, and hentai for MtF and yaoi for FtM).” And although this isn’t exclusively for this category because I think this includes other paths to trans such as seeking to dissociate from their bodies due o sexual trauma or abuse, but both MtF and FtM seek out exclusively lesbians or gay men (or people who outwardly identify as such) as partners purposes of validating their transition in that they can feel reassured that they are being seen as the opposite sex, even when the belief that that the person they’re with is homosexual (or even bisexual) is downright ludicrous.

I stumbled upon a good example of the latter recently when doing a rare foray into FtM subreddits to learn and check on my understanding of some things (which could be the subject of its own post) but I was curious about discussions of preferred sexual activity by FtMs, particularly “gay FtMs” (aka straight girls) based on the constant posts in r/AGB and propaganda from hijacked gay media shaming gay men as shallow sex freaks for being exclusively attracted to male bodies and sex organs, and acting like gay men should be willing to stick their dicks in any hole and let anyone penetrate them with whatever phallic objects the other person wants. The short version of the story is that while sexual activity is obviously a frequent topic on r/agb (as it likewise is in appropriate gay men’s spaces generally and a lot of gay men’s spaces center around sexual activity between men), the FtMs are having very little sex and they overwhelmingly are not interested in anal sex, like less interested in it than women who don’t identify as men or gay men specifically. There was more discussion of dysphoria around their female genitalia and discussion of not wanting to involve it in sexual activity than there was affirmative discussion of how they like to have sex. What little sexual discussion happened was pretty much entirely focused on the issues and aversions of the FtM poster and not about active enjoyed sexual attraction to men (gay or generally). Discussion of male anatomy was limited to discussions of dysphoria, not active attraction.

So the “stick goes in hole” and “drawer full of dicks” pressure propaganda is unsurprisingly by and largely hypothetical in the FtM space based on my unscientific survey based on basic search terms you would expect to find in posts about sexual activity.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-14T01:25:00+00:00

Just about every actual lesbian (aka female with exclusive attraction to other females) is going to laugh at the absurdity of the premise because no way are lesbian relationships some blissful paradigm devoid of sexism, misogyny, and unrest. We’re with women because women alone make us hot and wet. I think it is true that if I didn’t live in an society where I saw exclusively heterosexual couples growing up it wouldn’t occur to me to try to be with a man romantically and sexually. But not because we’re so different we can’t get along. The family members I’m closest to are men, as are a lot of my close friends.

I had one relationship with a man who I married and we were compatible in so many ways and remain close friends. The relationship was much easier overall. But I wasn’t attracted to him and I had to suppress a huge part of myself to remain in that relationship and leave myself unfulfilled. Leaving that relationship was hard and I can’t say my life is necessarily better now. I just feel more right with myself, in touch with my body, and have a fulfilling sex life. I’m in a relationship with another woman and there is a lot of mutual understanding because we’re both women, but there are also tensions too, and that’s not just because same-sex relationships are not fully accepted in society.

Sometimes you need more yin to your yang. I don’t think any sexual orientation is more natural than another and I hate ascribing more value toward any sexual orientation.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-13T18:06:53+00:00

Possibly also why they feel so comfortable abusing gay men too. Gay men are men but they’re not the same threat since gay men don’t pose a risk of sexually assaulting or raping them and they’re men they can act like they’re above and dominant toward in their quest to be seen as men (or as non-women). Some complicated and fragile psychological dynamics going on there. This is one of the areas that radfems act totally ignorant of because it doesn’t fit a black and white view of the situation where men/boys are all offenders and women/girls are all pure victims, as we already know based on how many pedophiles, serial killers, and rapists were themselves abused, often victims become victimizers regardless of their sex. They also seem to not acknowledge how much of the enforcers of the gender identity ideology are themselves young girls. Abigail Shrier did at least convey some aspects of that in her book though she didn’t cover the FtMs who target and victimize gay men.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-13T00:08:02+00:00

Yes but we should encourage personal growth and learning from and admitting our mistakes. This is the path we need to encourage the TRA enablers to take.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-13T00:00:29+00:00

This seems like it has a lot of merit to it.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-11T19:44:53+00:00

Ah, yes and all the gay trans men who perished with them. So many teenage girls clamoring to be and have sex with gay men back then. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. There was validation to go around like you wouldn’t believe as the Fujoshi fought so tirelessly for their right to have their CD4 count plummet so authentically into nothingness.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-11T16:17:19+00:00

At this point I would be OK with a new word that connotes natural, exclusive female homosexuality and lacks political connotation. I’m willing to throw lesbian into the memory hole. Gay woman and homosexual work until that word exists.

That’s the thing, does Julie Bindel even call herself gay? Or just “lesbian” and “homosexual?”

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-11T16:09:08+00:00

Lone, rogue homosexual lol. I don’t know of any others in my family but they could just not be out since most of my extended family doesn’t know I’m gay either and we’re not close. My dad did say when I was younger that he had a gay uncle, but that’s all I know of. My girlfriend has a gay cousin.

Notably gay seems to track in identical twins but most of the time trans-identification doesn’t. Homosexual transexual Laverne Cox’s identical twin is a self-reportedly has sex with both men and women (idk if he’s used the word bisexual). But to be honest, if you look at him, it is hard to imagine him with a woman.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-11T15:56:03+00:00

Her support for political lesbianism is one thing that she could be disputed on, but she does not appear to be a political lesbian. I can say she absolutely does not have a typical bisexual experience or presentation. That is something I can speak on definitively.

I will say the same thing about her account of her experience of being a lesbian being completely foreign and alien. The fact that she thinks that women who have attraction to men can “choose” to be a lesbian and attracted to women is absurd and completely detached from the experience of being a lesbian. Like, hey, I like that I like women because I think women are hot. I also know that I didn’t choose to. It’s just who my body responds to.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-11T08:17:47+00:00

It's that cognitive dissonance between not being the thing and desperately wanting to be the thing that causes the activism.

Oh absolutely. They doth protest too much. They can’t understand the nuances of being gay if they’re not gay to begin with.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-11T08:16:55+00:00

You think you’re the smartest person in the room but you’re a million steps behind and still somehow don’t even know what a lesbian is and what interests are prevalent among actual lesbians despite it being spelled out for you constantly. You look for opportunities to spout a bunch of non-responsive nonsense in a forum where lesbians, gay men, and bisexual men and women have actively agreed that we have common interests and should be allies, learn from and about each other, and try to work together. You do not feel that way, so why are you here? That was rhetorical, of course.

I’m convinced you’ve been raised in solitary confinement or would come out of it unchanged. You’re like the Point in Pointland in the book Flatland. Solipsist doesn’t even begin to explain it.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-11T08:00:07+00:00

I am so glad you posted about this. I have stopped reading most "Lesbian & Gay News" articles because of the homophobic angle in some of their articles. I already see enough of the same bullshit spouted by TQ+ activists.

Which ones tipped you over the edge? Just the radfem ones or others too?

(I do appreciate the legal articles though, those tend to stay pretty on-topic.)

Dennis Kavanaugh, the legal commentator for LGN also has a blog. He does provide quality legal analysis. His articles are my favorite too.

And I'm not sure how much overlap there is between LGN and LGB Alliance, but there seems to be some substantial amount of overlap, which concerns me.

I have wondered this too. I have been watching LGB Alliance though and I don’t think I’ve seen evidence yet that it is run by political lesbians but I also don’t expect them to call out political lesbians when they are focused on trying to gather a base of support.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-11T07:48:24+00:00

It’s sad but not shocking that natural, exclusive homosexual females have never represented ourselves or been allowed to have our own name separate from those who seek to co-opt our sexual orientation for their political, personal, or social ends.

“Lesbian” as she is defining it is inconsistent with the L in LGB and more consistent with the B. I can understand wanting a word that is female-leaning bisexual woman by nature and also wanting a word like FEBFem that represents the choice of female-only partners like Julie seems to have made. But to call herself L and then to say that L is a choice because I chose to be L is shitty.

She is vocal about her “identity” but as many of us are commenting, it’s not inherently an identity for us but a factual reality. Her “lesbian identity” is extremely foreign and unrelatable to me. And in the process she denies homosexuality and erases bisexuality as natural phenomena. Ultimately, she’a not merely asserting her identity, but denying our reality by conflating herself with us instead of respectfully recognizing the distinction.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-11T07:36:24+00:00

No, you doofus. This is exactly what we told you, Jiminy Cricket/exponent2/etc. when we said you were falsely ascribing the actions of political lesbians like this one here to actual lesbians (homosexual females). This is exactly what we told you. This isn’t new. What’s new is I actively looked for evidence that this woman is a political lesbian and shared it with the class.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-10T23:04:13+00:00

The difference is that a lot of people simultaneously believe that gay men are naturally gay but that lesbianism isn’t naturally occurring.

The fact that she proudly says she advocates for heterosexual women to leave men and “become lesbians” is also both equally ignorant and gross behavior.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-10T22:43:02+00:00

This article is from July 2014. What a quaint time. As many of you know, Julie Bindel is a prominent voice in the radical feminist movement and critic of gender ideology. But her thought process here underscores why her political lesbianism is just as much (or almost as much) of an appropriation of female homosexuality as transbianism. This gets reflected back onto us because she refuses to recognize that maybe just maybe there are women who are not like her who just happen to be attracted to women exclusively without it being a political statement or statement about men or an active rejection of men. This contributes to every actual lesbian getting labeled a TERF for having the audacity to be openly homosexual.

Not to mention, she sounds like an alien outsider who I can in no way relate to. She cannot advocate for the rights of young lesbians if she doesn’t even recognize that natural exclusive same-sex attraction exists. She cannot both advocate for us and our needs while denying our existence.

I find it sad how lesbians are never represented by actual lesbians. I can’t even extricate our own lesbian heritage from this misandrist political movement. I can’t relate to nonsense about “performing femininity” and butch and femme “identities.” It just comes across mostly as narcissistic projection.

And while I do appreciate the advent of the Lesbian and Gay News, it seems that nearly all content from lesbians and bisexual females is based in political lesbianism/FEBFem. It’s incredibly alienating and also makes it so that there is no room for any lesbian positivity on there. Because their entire notion of lesbianism is based on being “anti” things and not just being female while happening to only be attracted to other women. I have nothing in common with her.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-09T11:22:21+00:00

Hmm I wonder why your Asian parents didn’t teach you about “queerness” (whatever that means). But whatever the reason, it’s obv a conspiracy by white people talking about ourselves and our own experiences.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-09T00:20:58+00:00

Shhh! 🤫 We need to tell Ben what a great job he did so he’ll keep going out and doing this and peaking all of the Western world for us.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-08T16:40:56+00:00

In America we have the HRC’s Corporate Equality Index and other similar schemes. It’s downright racketeering.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-08T10:19:22+00:00

It’s basically said with a wink that says “You know I can’t say the real reasons out loud quite yet and that is exactly the problem.”

You know I’m realizing how much of a relief it must be for a lot of these institutions to have an excuse to leave this scheme and en masse too so they don’t get Stonewall’s wrath uniquely focused on them. People are in a fog but they know things are tense and that it’s impossible to have basic conversations and the kind of structured communications TRAs push for never happen outside of trans-controlled spaces.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-08T06:29:55+00:00

This flag was redesigned by someone named Valentino Vecchietti. What is known about this person and what intersex condition does she have? I see a lot of references to her being an intersex activist, but exclusively in ways that prop up TQ and the myth of a "LGBTI community" She is ostensibly female and identify as a non-binary lesbian but with facial hair, a male name, and she/they pronouns. They work for a magazine for lesbian and bisexual women and now apparently also "non-binary people." I keep seeing the words "Intersex Activist" linked to her name but I can't find any information out about her condition other than that she says she has facial hair and was ostracized by the "lesbian community" and "gatekeeping lesbians" when she decided to grow out her facial hair. and they spend zero time discussing the details of Intersex issues and instead pushing the myth of the LGBTI "community."

I couldn't get all the way through this video that ironically is supposed to be about lesbian visibility while constantly referring to lesbians as awful, "gate-keepers" without even relaying what any lesbian purportedly did. I don't think anyone in the video said what their intersex condition is, but who knows.

I have never met a in intersex person who considered themselves part of the rainbow gang. I don't even think there is much of an intersex community since that category covers wildly different conditions.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-07T22:44:20+00:00

I like your taste in books. I need to read Cancer Ward again. I read it over a decade ago and I can barely remember it though I know I enjoyed it. But my mindset is so different now that I think it would have an even stronger impact.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-07T22:37:43+00:00

Perfect example. This was a big shift in my changing worldview that came from peaking. I became disillusioned with big supposed Charity organizations that weren’t tied to the local community.

We still need institutional support IMO and obv we will need more as great society inevitably hits peak trans. Homophobia remains a problem in the west even in liberal areas but it doesn’t play into black and white us vs. them narratives that others can use to claim moral high ground over others. I would love for us to be thought of as boring so we can just move on handling our own shit.

Plus no one can eliminate all of the discomfort that comes from being different or the opposite of everyone else. Pretending there’s no difference between us and heterosexual people and prohibiting discussion about our differences doesn’t help. That’s why we have each other and need to be able to identify ourselves and each other with common language. We are what makes each other feel at ease and OK with ourselves. It’s each other who helps us get used to being out and about with same sex partners while we act like and other human beings. It’s not randos carrying around rainbow lanyards at work or making dogmatic Facebook posts that give us that comfort.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-07T06:16:51+00:00

He's got a point. We don't use bodies to be intimate and have sex with one another. We use pronouns, identities, and indescribable innate internal feelings. It must be so much easier for him to ask someone's pronouns before he can be attracted to them. Or better yet, to constantly re-define his own sexual orientation every time someone he's ever been attracted to changes theirs.

And let's pretend for a minute that this was just about genitals, as if that's the only obvious differentiator between the sexes. Who the hell, even bisexual people, think that male and female genitalia are interchangeable. Tell me you've never had sex without telling me you've never had sex.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-07T03:12:02+00:00

Perhaps this is one of those delightful LGB generational differences?

I think it is. My gay friends who are into gender woo still wouldn’t ever pull that kind of nonsense. I do think their gender obsession, more than anything, is a reaction to a lot of the impotence we have felt and trauma society inflicted on gay people. I don’t think this is something that many of the most vehement Gen Z TQ activists have experienced. I think for a lot of Gen Z, their sexual orientation has not ever been made to feel like a source of shame, depending on their ethnic, religious, and socioeconomic background ofc. And so they had a very different experience coming out as gay and don’t see it as consequential. Consequently, pride/the LGB(T) community has an entirely different meaning to them and is more like a team sport than a support group.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-06T21:09:18+00:00

I know! It’s so interesting to see commentary on it from around the time it came out. People panned it for playing into stereotypes when I think it subverted stereotypes. Megan didn’t change herself upon realizing she was gay. And the camp was all about enforcing gender stereotypes based on the idea that the young gay characters needed to be taught to be re-educated on their gender identity. They actually used the words “Rediscovering Your Gender Identity. Re-watching that in 2021 was like 😳.

At the same time the movie made it clear the that homosexuality itself was the biggest transgression because heterosexuality was the biggest component of gender identity. We know this because the main character Megan already acted in every other way consistent with how they were teaching her to act, from her academic prowess to her extracurriculars, to her rule-following, to her appearance and clothing. But all of that wasn’t enough because she was homosexual specifically. Everyone needs to re-watch this movie in 2021. For real.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-06T20:20:16+00:00

I hope people like Miranda Yardley who have been banned from Twitter are screenshooting this and plan to use this as evidence in the inevitable class actions against Twitter that will happen. By Twitter’s own logic, when they ban someone, they are depriving them of human rights. Twitter, the self-admitted transgressors of trans human rights. Beautiful.

I’m sure their legal team would be reeling over this. I love the smell of estoppel in the morning.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-05T16:38:06+00:00

But the point that we have straight people litigating against gay people on behalf of a third kind of person (some of whom used to be gay, but have become straight via transition) is not lost on me.

Yes! This is an even more on point way to look at it, especially given Green’a own testimony about why she transed the son she and her husband feared he was gay.m because of the toys and clothing he preferred.

And no matter how many surgeries he has or beauty pageants he enters and is praised for he still looks very much like a man. The public would skewer him for hubris for thinking he should be in a beauty pageant if they were treating him like an actual woman.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-04T23:11:39+00:00

I really felt the main character Megan in “But I’m a Cheerleader” and especially her “I’m a homosexual” moment. That movie was also a lot of fun.

I also very much enjoyed “Portrait of a Lady of Fire.” I felt the chemistry and it didn’t feel cheesy. It very much helps that it was directed by a lesbian and one of the two leads is played by a lesbian. If only we could get such realistic portrayals of female-female desire, flirtation, and romance taking place in the modern day.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-04T21:52:40+00:00

Insightful, eloquent, and downright poetic. 🙌

I hope all the AGP transwomen in their programmer socks and cat ears code dozens of upvote bots to get this to the front page.

Also LOL.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-04T21:43:57+00:00

Add this to the pile of other succinct and telling observations that show how very off the media narrative is. Just like where are the middle aged or older women who are married to men coming out as gay trans men? Nowhere to be found in any of the world.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-04T01:34:45+00:00

Thanks for the correction. I’m not sure who I was confusing her with. I will remove that.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-03T18:39:17+00:00

“Gender expression” exists as a term for two reasons: (1) so that lazy, narcissistic people can pretend to have a gender identity and claim to be “trans” without any semblance of a transition so they can just respond “gender identity is different from gender expression” and maintain some kind of moral high ground; and (2) to explain away sexism and homophobia because it’s obvious that discrimination and harassment cannot happen from strangers based on ideas in our heads that they have no way of knowing about, so they needed to come up with this bullshit to explain that.

Except what if I don’t think or intend any of my clothes or how I present myself physically to be an “expression of gender.” So what explains the harassment and discrimination now? Presumed gender expression and presumed gender identity, of course. Or maybe they would tell me that I’m expressing my gender whether or not I do so knowingly or intentionally because they always know my thoughts and feelings better than I do. 🙄

I would like to see a case where someone is accused of the latter and uses the defense that they make no presumptions about gender identity ever because they don’t believe in it as a concept. I would love to litigate that.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-03T17:50:41+00:00

They mention that Allison Bailey is a “lesbian barrister.”

Can they specify each time they mention Susie Green and Mermaids that she is a straight woman and that it is an org run by a straight woman? I can’t wait til they start scrutinizing her Ted Talk and call out that she is married to a man that she admits is homophobic?

Finally we are left with Gendered Intelligence UK. They are more mysterious. I can’t even find out who is leading them even after reviewing their website. But they describe themselves as “trans-led.”

I’d be more than fine with articles saying straight, and trans-led to describe these orgs and their leadership. It proves the exact point LGB Alliance is trying to make. They should call that out now that they’re getting mainstream press.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-03T17:35:11+00:00

Sky News is a prominent tv news channel in the UK. This is a major mainstream source.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-03T17:30:02+00:00

It is true that the general public thinks we’re one big happy rainbow family. And this puts them on notice there is a schism and may cause some people to look into this more bc if they spend 5 seconds thinking about it they’d realize gay rights issues have been a thing for a long time, finally gaining momentum in the early 2000s. But gender identity came out of NOWHERE. And since it did, they hear nothing about gay issues anymore. So it shouldn’t be strange that orgs would rise up to represent those issues since the current ones clearly aren’t doing it. Even weirder in their eyes should be the fact that most of the orgs that are fighting them don’t even pretend to be about gay rights. If Mermaids and Gendered Intelligence can focus on gender identity only why the hell shouldn’t LGB Alliance or any other org be allowed to focus on same sex rights only when that was the norm until the last few years. Like that was what Stonewall UK did until like 6 years ago so why should it be unthinkable for another org to fill that role now when they’ve clearly abandoned that mission.

IMO, some people will gloat over the cracks but the whole of society needs to know they’re there and that if they supposedly care about “LGBTQ” issues these they need to pay closer attention.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-03T13:45:01+00:00

I wholeheartedly agree.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-03T10:34:51+00:00

Keep up the post and the comments. There is value in the breakdown of this article in these comments. There is both good and bad in there. I do have the same concern about radicals feminism. In general, lesbians are almost never represented by actual lesbians.

But potentially giving Stock the benefit of the doubt where she says that it’s not about who you are attracted to right now, which in general I disagree with, it’s depending on what she is calling “attraction” and to what that person is “attracted” to.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-03T10:16:53+00:00

I mean specifically a lot of lesbigay people seem to treat it as taboo. I agree that both liberal and conservative non-LGB people push to make it an issue from parents who want to sus out and broadcast their children’s sexual orientation for woke points to conservatives who want to scare the gay out of kids before they’re old enough to understand what that even means. But among lesbigay people, we run into people all the time who strike us as having SSA they haven’t worked out yet but in my experience we don’t tend to push that conversation on them and say unprompted “have you considered you’re actually gay.” Again this is my experience, but I find that a lot of us are happy answer questions when they come to us but won’t initiate that conversation. When I came out as gay to gay people I knew, some did say they suspected I was gay or bisexual but they never pushed that conversation on me. I think there’s a recognition that everyone handles this process differently and at whatever point they’re ready to. Because even though we would like SSA to be neutral and it should be, there are still profound life consequences that come with acknowledging that. It’s a huge shift in recasting our lives for each of us to process.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-02T12:01:18+00:00

This has me thinking about a comparison to lesbigay youth and how we realize and acknowledge our homosexual and bisexual orientations. In my experience it’s always been considered taboo to not let people work that out on their own time. That being said I’ve talked about r/LBL and the “MasterDoc”being a breeding ground for obscuring the realities of gay and bi women and convincing straight and bi women that they are lesbians not based on recognizing their own homosexual tendencies but by confounding and redefining what it means to be a bisexual or lesbian woman. But it’s a TQ “words don’t have any real meaning” driven discourse.

yousaythosethings · 2021-06-02T11:54:56+00:00

I have to say that I appreciate Dennis Kavanaugh’s legal commentary. I don’t practice law in the UK but in a derivative common law system (the U.S.) and have some comparative law experience so I’m not completely clueless. I would appreciate the insights of another UK attorney to stress test it but it does appear pretty solid to me. I wish I knew more about his background but I definitely appreciate that he is an educated gay voice in this space.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-31T16:00:48+00:00

It’s a matter of what the publications thought was the most noteworthy.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-30T17:38:40+00:00

I went to school with, am friends with, have worked with, and was taught by several SCOTUS clerks including Thomas and Ginsburg. And I’m no stranger to being on the inside of the chambers of the federal judiciary myself. I know how this stuff works, but yes it’s taboo to admit the power recent law school grads have on the development of U.S. federal law. But it is what it is.

Whether Biden or Roberts don’t last until 2024, that still doesn’t give us Chief Justice Thomas and Thomas’s thinking on the issues scares me a lot less than others.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-29T05:44:46+00:00

I didn’t hear him say he is looking forward to becoming trans, but that he is “attracted” to trans. I do think you are right though in the rest of your analysis. This comes up right after he looks to be in understandable visible pain as he mentions his daughter rejecting him for being gay and telling him to Jill himself and that he was concerned that being gay was seen as inconsistent with being a champion male athlete.

I also looked up his career and he had a long career that ended the year before this.

And there is inconsistent reporting of his sexual orientation as gay vs bisexual because he came out as bisexual first and then shortly after just gay. The circumstances make it unclear which, but that he was struggling either way. It is very sad.

I also saw that he later said that he had an encounter (relationship?) with a famous MtF named Sidney Starr. Starr reportedly also had an affair or 2-year relationship depending on who you ask with rapper Chingy in 2007-2009 that seems to have coincided with the end of his career.

Everyone thinks the entertainment industry is pro-gay when in reality they don’t understand the machine that is the Hollywood Closet and how much infrastructure is built around concealing the sexual orientations of those who actively partner with the same sex while celebrating as “LGBT icons” celebrities who come out as some “proud” ambiguous “queer” or “refuse to label themselves” but for which there is zero evidence of any same sex partner while they continue to be actually (or given the appearance of dating) members of the opposite sex. I’m looking at you Harry Styles, Halsey, Jameela Jamil, etc.

Are we even allowed to discuss on here the celebrities who have not officially come out but for which there is abundant evidence they date the same sex and often evidence their relationships with the opposite sexual are fake?

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-29T05:09:37+00:00

Obergefell is essentially guaranteed to be overturned once Clarence Thomas is Chief Justice. It will be the gay apocalypse in the U.S.

Excuse me, what? What are you basing this on? Once Clarence Thomas becomes Chief Justice? Why is this a done deal in your mind, let alone a likelihood? Only 5 Chief Justices in history served on the Supreme Court as Associate Justices before their appointment, and I see no scenario in which Thomas becomes CJ.

The Chief Justice is not the longest tenured justice serving at a given time. They are generally appointed to the Court for the first time as the Chief.

The current Chief Roberts is 66 and Thomas is 6 years older at 72. We also just started a Democratic presidency so there will be no Republican appointment of a justice, let alone a Chief one for at least 4 more years. At that time, even if Chief Justice Roberts died or retired, Thomas would be 76. Republicans would want to maximize tenure and choose someone young. Selecting a 76-year-old would be a huge waste.

And I’m not sure what special powers you think a Chief Justice has, but their main power is to decide who writes the opinion, but the writer is chosen from among whichever judges were in the majority.

And in reality, the person who actually writes the opinion is a fresh out of law school grad clerking for the judge.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-29T04:32:44+00:00

This story and video I stumbled upon are from November 30, 2015 and what an interesting time capsule this is. For context, this was from a few months after gay marriage was legalized under federal law in the U.S. The headline is:

Boxer Yusaf Mack looking forward to transgender relationship.

Um OK. So this man is a boxer who just started dating a person whose most worthy attribute of mention is that they are transgender? No, not even because here is the blurb under the 2:30 video:

Pro boxer Yusaf Mack made a surprising announcement last week. Mack appeared in the gay porn video Holiday Humpin and caused a controversy with his accusations that he was drugged when he did the film. Now Mack has admits that he is gay and that he is looking forward to exploring his options with a new relationship.

At the end of the 2:30 video in which the main story is obviously that this boxer came out as gay, he says that he was inspired to come out by “Bruce Jenner” and consistently refers to him as “Bruce” and with male pronouns. This is comical in context because they flash the Vanity Fair cover with Jenner which says in large font “Call me Caitlyn.” Then he says briefly “My interest is [t-words]. I like [t-word]s. I’m attracted to [t-word]s. I don’t like nobody with muscles like me.”

The video is cut so we can’t see what questions he’s responding to and if he brought up transgender attraction himself or was asked by the interviewer. It’s also heavily implied by word choice that he is saying specifically he’s attracted to MtF trans with no mention of FtM, implying the baseline requirement of being attracted to biological males, feminized or otherwise.

I do have to wonder if the headline got changed later, and if so, when. If this was the original title they really kicked the transing of LGBT into overdrive immediately after the Obergefell decision and were not trying to hide it.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-29T04:29:06+00:00

This story and video I stumbled upon are from November 30, 2015 and what an interesting time capsule this is. The headline is:

Boxer Yusaf Mack looking forward to transgender relationship.

Um OK. So this man is a boxer who just started dating a person whose most worthy attribute of mention is that they are transgender? No, not even because here is the blurb under the 2:30 video:

Pro boxer Yusaf Mack made a surprising announcement last week. Mack appeared in the gay porn video Holiday Humpin and caused a controversy with his accusations that he was drugged when he did the film. Now Mack has admits that he is gay and that he is looking forward to exploring his options with a new relationship.

For context, this was from a few months after gay marriage was legalized under federal law in the U.S. At the end of the 2:30 video in which the main story is obviously that this boxer came out as gay, he says that he was inspired to come out by “Bruce Jenner” and consistently refers to him as “Bruce” and with male pronouns. This is comical in context because they flash the Vanity Fair cover with Jenner which says in large font “Call me Caitlyn.” Then he says briefly “I like trnnies. I’m attracted to trnnies. I don’t like nobody with muscles like me.” The video is cut so we can’t see what questions he’s responding to and if he brought up transgender attraction himself or was asked by the interviewer. It’s also heavily implied by word choice that he is saying specifically he’s attracted to MtF trans with no mention of FtM, implying the baseline requirement of being attracted to biological males, feminized or otherwise.

I do have to wonder if the headline got changed later, and if so, when.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-29T03:39:23+00:00

He understands that men who are specifically attracted to his dick and would not be attracted to him if he surgically inverted it are not straight, so he has some level of self-awareness and self-respect. He isn’t depending on a house of cards to validate himself and others to conform their identities to prop up his. Props to him. It is actually funny to see that comment justifying these men whose main requirement in a partner is “penis” as totes straight and then the OP being like “well obv they’re not.”

But the answer to his question about why these men are going for him specifically and not other men if “penis” not feminine artificial secondary sex characteristics is the deal-breaker is pretty obvious and he basically answers his own question: they have a specific fetish for feminized male bodies (as he guesses) and/or they want to maintain the image, identity, and label of being heterosexual when they’re plainly not. And in AGB they of all people should know the social pressures against appearing outwardly gay or bisexual. Anyone commenting there who acts as if those pressures aren’t there has my immediate suspicion.

I also re-read to see if he indicated his belief of whether it’s possible for a man actual straight man to be attracted to him, but he really didn’t indicate one way or another and leaves that open. He just said he wants someone to be specifically attracted to his feminine attributes, so he is not the type who is saying he wants “cishet” men only for validation.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-29T00:23:25+00:00

To address your claim, you are saying that there are two types of women who go by the lesbian label: 'real lesbians,' who are lesbians because they feel sexual attraction exclusively to women, and fake lesbians ('political lesbians'), who are not lesbians because they're either bisexual or heterosexual, not exclusively sexually attracted to women.

No, there are a lot of different reasons some females who do not experience exclusive female-attraction adopt or claim to be lesbians. The other categories were just not relevant.

A political lesbian is no different from a supposedly real lesbian.

You keep saying that as if we homosexual females out here in the field who are in the business of fucking women can't tell the measurable difference between women who are exclusively attracted to women vs. women who are not attracted to women or are attracted to both men and women but pursue women out of misandry. The latter think and talk about men way more than the rest of us.

I'm sorry I mis-identified you as a woman. I did see that later. Unfortunately though, almost nothing you say resonates with my sexuality or my sexual orientation. "Lesbian" is not my identity. In fact, IRL I use this word to describe myself almost never. But it is the word that describes the reality of my sexual orientation. As I said, almost nothing you said resonates with me. I'm a lawyer and constructing, analyzing, deconstructing, and evaluating arguments is what I do for a living. As for yours, you start with boldly stated premises that I don't agree with to begin with because they are so far removed and in conflict with my own experiences and observations. And then from there you jump to an equally preposterous conclusion. That's not worth my time to break down because it would be like arguing with a flat-earther. That you are a man makes a little more sense because you seem to have little understanding of female sexuality and homosexual relationships between two women.

But you know, the easiest relationship I've ever been in is the only relationship I've ever been in with with a man. He was an excellent partner and remains one of my very best friends and close confidantes. So maybe you're onto something. Maybe we should all force ourselves to be in relationships with people we are not attracted to.

Godspeed dude.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T22:20:08+00:00

I'm not all that familiar with Kehlani and don't know her music, but I did independently stumble upon this fact recently and also had the thought that I was surprised I hadn't heard of it. But she is knee-deep in queer theory and gender identity/non-binary/pronoun nonsense, and based on other things she's said about men, it did make me take her newfound lesbian identity less seriously. While I hope she's legit and happy, I am feeling pretty cynical right now about all of the homosexual and bisexual erasure.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T20:08:37+00:00

She is being sucked deeper and deeper into obvious mental illness before our very eyes and no one is willing to talk straight about this publicly. Where are her friends and family? She clearly has some sort of body dysmorphia and eating disorder going on, and also appears to be experiencing hair loss, which is inevitable with exogenous testosterone it seems. Will the the media and the public still pretend anyone is lusting after her we when she's a bald, 5'1", 65 lb "man" with no career prospects who has removed all sexual organs from her body while her vagina atrophies, dries up, and causes constant pain? Will they still pretend to celebrate her? How far is the public going to let this get before anyone says anything or is willing to publicly ask whether everything is OK with any aspect of this situation? I have no doubt there will be leeches in her life who will use her for her money and fame without regard for her. What will she do when there's nothing left to transition toward? When will she stop and why?

This is a tragedy in action and a new low for humanity.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T19:53:24+00:00

Some detrans heterosexual women care. Waffling Willow on YouTube is one such person who has made it a priority to expose and discuss the homophobia and cult-like environment of the modern trans community. She's done great videos assessing her experiences in the trans community against the BITE Model of Authoritarian Control and exposing the Boxer Ceiling.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T19:09:29+00:00

This is actually extremely common. It's all over the dating app profiles of every transwoman. They love "dyke" probably for the same reason transmen love the f-word. Curiously they also all love making up stories where they claim they were called this by a stranger. I have never seen any transwoman IRL or anywhere online look anything like someone who would get called "dyke" by a stranger because absolutely no one would have think they're a homosexual female, but at best a cross-dressing male who wants to be seen as a woman. My girlfriend was aggressively called "dyke" by a stranger within the last few months while she was minding her own business because she's female but presents masculinely, so it is very much still being used as a slur against masculine women who are presumed to be lesbians (which she is).

In contrast, I fully believe transwomen of any sexual orientation get called the f-word because the vast majority are obviously male and are presumed to be homosexual. If you ask around, most people assume that Caitlyn Jenner was/is a closet homosexual male. It doesn't help that he is in that weird "non-relationship" with a fellow, but much younger transwoman that is his youngest kids' age. But it doesn't mean that trans women get to reclaim the f-word if they're not homosexual males or they are trying to identify out of being homosexual males.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T17:11:00+00:00

I'm pretty sure she's blocked me, but me and her have had several long arguments where she denies that these people exist and accuses me of hating all bi people for bringing it up.

This is what I had in mind when I asked her, and I think she has fundamentally misjudged me and where my concern is coming from. I gathered she was very touchy about that and I know from that that she does not believe that there is a significant subset of bisexual people who call themselves gay or lesbian while knowing they are attracted to both sexes. I quite frankly do not understand the denial because there is abundant evidence that this is the case, many people openly admit to it, and we benefit from being able to recognize and respect differences and understand that words have consistent meanings when we use them and from our words being based on a common baseline understanding. By not recognizing this problem, the result is simultaneous bisexual and homosexual erasure here. So I think we all have a stake in this, especially because I would like there to be an actual community -- a social community and a community of understanding -- of lesbians, bisexuals, and gay men, and separately between lesbians and bisexual women, and separately for each of our individual groups. And I think we all need to be able to recognize and call out the bad actors/transgressors within and from our own communities or at least not jump on others who do, because we understand the nuanced issues at stake.

(Also, you, I'm still planning on replying to your message, it's just hard to type it all out)

No rush on that. Seriously.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T16:01:40+00:00

I believe this was a huge puzzle piece that was missing from Abigail Shrier’s book because it may very well be that the parents don’t know about this component.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T15:59:15+00:00

I've been told not to call a marriage between a lesbian and a bisexual woman a homosexual/gay marriage, but rather a "same-sex marriage." I've also been told not to call bisexual-lesbian couples "lesbian."

I am not too miffed by a relationship between two women whether the individuals in it are bisexual or lesbian calling themselves a “lesbian relationship” because there is still no good, non-awkward word for causal use. Hence the popularity of “queer.” That is one reason I would like “sapphic” or an equivalent to become popularized because a word is absolutely needed to fill that void and I want it to be a word that lacks ideological and political connotations. “Lesbian couple” is a little more iffy than “lesbian relationship” for some reason because it does for whatever reason give me more of a connotation that they’re both lesbians, but again it’s not a hill I would die on because I understand the criticism on both ends.

Some people take those rules to their logical conclusion and extend it to heterosexual relationships.

In my experience this is coming from two different groups of people with different motivations. The first is coming from people who are concerned with homosexual erasure which is now newly as much an internal problem as it is an external problem and is resulting in sexual orientation (and sexual preferences on top of that) of both homosexual and bisexual people becoming dangerously reframed in the language of discrimination and inclusivity.

In my experience, for the second group who don’t want me to call my prior marriage “heterosexual,” they tend to be of the woke/queer mindset where they want to “queer” everything no matter how shallow and meaningless even when the inevitable result is that they end up conflating with and supplanting real issues of erasure.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T15:37:09+00:00

all academics, no natural biological drive.

Perfect summary. Their idea of utopia sounds miserable.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T14:48:01+00:00

You’re entitled to your opinion. I happen to disagree with yours here. It’s not the first time. I agree with some things you say and disagree with others. That’s what I like about this place. That we can do that here and there’s not hard feelings on my end. I don’t think our differences of perspective or priority are harmful to my reasons for wanting LGB orgs to detach from gender ideology.

I try not to be dogmatic but every time I feel myself getting there I like to take a step back and get some perspective.

If you can't empathize with others

I empathize just fine with others, including the poster, but doesn’t mean I don’t think their projections are not harmful. I didn’t report their post or try to take away their right to speak, but I sure as hell want to convey with my limited time and energy resources why their perspective is inaccurate and harmful.

So no, my actions do not arise from a lack of empathy. In my life I surround myself with people with a diversity of experiences and viewpoints, some of whom I vehemently disagree with on some things. One of my closest friends is a TRA. She’s messaging me right now, in fact. I follow and read the work of a lot of radfems and gender critical feminists. I follow and am friends with conservatives, but I am not one. I’m pretty good on empathy and tolerance.

at least understand that you never have the right to scorn and abuse them.

Yea, that’s a weighty accusation. Could I have been more gentle in my delivery? Sure, but abusive? I don’t see it. Feel free to point out what you think arises to the level of abusive.

I have to ask, did I touch a nerve by accusing OP of being a bisexual in denial?

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T13:10:51+00:00

The “ex-TRA” aspect is interesting bc it’s horseshoe theory in action. They still sound a lot like a TRA still in their beliefs. They think gay is a choice and an identity. They’re gay-identified but clearly a bisexual in denial who assumes all heterosexuals and homosexuals are too but we just won’t admit that we are and that we’ve made a choice. So in their minds we’re disingenuous liars when really they’re just projecting their sexual orientation and politics onto us, just like the typical TRA does. Still woke homophobes.

yousaythosethings · 2021-05-28T11:36:19+00:00

I think radical lesbians (lesbians who are radical feminists, whether they consider themselves political lesbians or not) want to redefine both female sexuality and female sexualness.

They, firstly, want to recognise that heterosexuality is a political institution, and not natural by any means.

Radical lesbians, they, secondly, want to cease the fetishization of lesbianism by both men and women.

This is all supremely ironic. How do you not see how you fakeass “radical ‘lesbians’” are also objectifying and fetishizing female homosexuality? This isn’t the way actual homosexual females/lesbians think. Though it can inform our view of the world, our naturally occurring sexual orientation is not a political ideology like you want it to be nor do we view others as such because it would be counterproductive. You’re misappropriating it and holding yourselves out to the public as us, as the same thing as us, and as representative of us. Quite frankly my dear, you do not have our interests at heart and you at trading one dogma for another. With no sense of irony, you are the colonizers here.

yousaythosethings