Sailing Straight

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T16:43:25+00:00

There's some overlap, yeah. I made a comment about this recently; take a look at r/transmaxxing if you want to really see it in action.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T16:39:58+00:00

all because they're too greedy and slutty to be happy with one person

Ok... I don't know if that's a fair accusation. I have zero interest in being in a polyamorous relationship myself, but I could see situations where people might get pressured into one, for example, when that wouldn't be true at all.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T16:37:16+00:00

I agree with this, and I think the mentality described by the OP might have been partially responsible for my slowness to acknowledge my sexual orientation... hmm. I hadn't really thought about that before.

"But gen Z labels everything"

No. Gen Z has a million labels for being transgender and pressures people to label their transgender identification, but often pressures people to NOT label their sexual orientation. Double standards. We end up seeing more discussion of labels on the whole because the "LGBTQ+" movement talks about transgender-related topics way more than LGB-related topics.

edit: grammar

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T16:16:06+00:00

Never heard of this person before, thanks for the heads up. Just awful. I feel for the men she raped.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T16:13:03+00:00

Sickening to see the exact same stereotypes taught to me by my homophobic religious family about lesbian women, also taught by people in the transgender "rights" movement.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T16:09:57+00:00

I'd be curious to read it! What annoyed you about the film?

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T16:07:13+00:00

Yep, exactly. So simple to point out the similarities in contrast between these two messages, yet so few people seem aware of this.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T16:05:20+00:00

A sort of narrow conception of being "cis" seems especially unhelpful when really most people have always varied in the degree to which they identify with such roles and fulfill those social expectations, and in modern times these social expectations have already become so much less strongly enforced. How I look/dress/speak and what interests I have aren't defined by my gender and I don't see why those things should be connected in the first place - I'd never identify as anything other than a man simply because I don't think "man" means all that much on its own anyway, it's as good as any other label and colloquially the most useful in my experience.

Completely agree. Would you mind linking the thread? Awesome to see this sort of suggestion being shared on Reddit.

Also, thank you for sharing this post, it's an important topic. :)

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T16:03:25+00:00

Honestly I do think that's an important component of the issue, yeah. Mainstream media narratives that criticize the transgender movement tend to focus on women's issues to the detriment of every other minority or subgroup that is harmed by the transgender movement.

Not to say that we shouldn't talk about women's rights... just, let's also talk about how kids with ASD are getting pressured to transition, how LGB kids are getting pressured to transition, how straight gender-nonconforming kids are getting pressured to transition, etc.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T16:00:25+00:00

Ughhhh. s/TransTheGayAway I almost went through this pipeline.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-21T15:54:36+00:00

So I've thought about it. A lot. I just don't think I'm queer.

I thought as much.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-18T11:07:59+00:00

Oh god lol, I could see a TRA saying this unironically.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-18T11:06:07+00:00

Yeah that really makes no sense to me. The only mechanism I could see that happening through, logically, is:

woman is unaware of, denies, or downplays her interest in men/dick
woman starts on testosterone
testosterone heightens sexual arousal
woman is suddenly more aware of her sexual arousal and what she actually wants-- which is dick
"testosterone made me want dick!" when the picture is more complicated than that.

I kind of wonder, if just dosing testosterone changed sexual orientation, then homophobes probably would've been doing that to gay/bisexual women for ages already...

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-18T11:02:26+00:00

Do you have any examples of this? Just curious, since there seems to be little enough material describing women's analogous experiences to AGP (i.e. AAP).

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-18T10:58:29+00:00

I completely agree and I really appreciate the way you described this phenomenon, it's a tough one to get a grasp of.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-18T10:53:04+00:00

It's important to adress that many HSTS have a fetish on straight men

Do you have a source or some reading material about this? I'd be curious to learn more. It does kinda seem like a difficult side effect to deal with after transitioning (presumably because of gender dysphoria)-- they'd have to either be content with chasers, with gay men who may not validate their trans identity, or try to persuade/pressure straight men, I guess.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-18T10:44:31+00:00

Identities can be inaccurate and don’t always reflect sexual orientation.

An often-forgotten and frequently misunderstood point.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-18T10:25:25+00:00

Thank you for sharing. Maybe worth its own post?

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-18T10:23:20+00:00

Ms Bell said she now intends to ask the Supreme Court to consider the case.

Well, it sounds like she is planning to challenge this. Godspeed Keira.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-17T04:08:07+00:00

Wow, the "lesbians" sub has really been having a lot of dick posts lately.

edit: Missed that this was r/lgbt, my bad. Still amazed to see how many people describe themselves as "lesbian" and then talk about how much they like dick. It sounds like it's straight out of a straight male porn fantasy.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-17T04:05:58+00:00

I mean, asexuality is a real thing. Unfortunately, it's also been colonized by people in the TQ+ movement, so the odds of this person actually being asexual are pretty low.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-17T03:57:30+00:00

Elvira always asking the real questions. LOL

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-17T03:52:06+00:00

Never heard of him before but he seems cool. In case anyone else wanted to see his profile: https://twitter.com/DuncanHenry78?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-17T03:46:24+00:00

I live in an area that’s one of the fattest in the nation. Anywhere you go, I’d venture that 45% of people are perfectly normal or underweight, 45% are a bit overweight, and 10% are super fat.

Math nerd poking my head in here... If those were the actual stats in your area, then your area would be probably one of the least overweight in the nation, not the most. There was a 2017-2018 general population survey that got released recently, and it suggested that 73% of Americans are overweight, and 30.7% of Americans are obese. Although, I will caveat, u/theytookourjerbs is right to point out that CDC and similar organizations can make mistakes on this stuff, and that people sometimes overestimate the US's extremity. This chart suggests that the US is #14 in obesity, though New Zealand, Australia and Canada are not far behind.

/nerd rant, sorry haha.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-17T03:24:21+00:00

Yeah. I think some may have already realized it, but get called "bigoted" for suggesting it...

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-17T03:21:55+00:00

People on these platforms don't care about Butler, but about attention and clout chasing.

They may not know or care about her, but they do care about her ideas. Because those ideas are how they obtain attention, clout chasing, pressure people into sex in the case of (for example) AGP transwomen, and so on.

See my comment above.

Which I refuted. Let me be more specific, if it might help: Judith Butler's academic theories have infected LGBTQ+ media among my age group. Gender identity beliefs are extremely popular on social media, and social media skews young. You could reasonably argue, "Many young LGB people aren't infected these beliefs, they're just being censored off social media so it only SEEMS like LGB youth believe this stuff." I will admit that's a possibility; I'm one of those people.

The ideology that Judith Butler helped formalize and spread, is the leader of, is the same one that Stonewall's rules go by and that the entirety of "LGBTQ+" social media is run by. You could argue that Judith Butler is not as influential a founder of this belief system as some other people, or that tons of people come up with stupid belief systems and it's really the fault of money-greedy institutions or angry men demanding sex that this belief system took off (as you did argue, and as I acknowledged is an important topic to talk about). However, it makes no logical sense to argue that Stonewall UK has nothing to do with these ideas that came from gender identity ideology leaders such as Judith Butler. They are directly related. I don't believe that she represents everyone in or all of the content taught in the field of gender studies, but I'm referring to her specifically, not gender studies.

I get the impression that we might be using different definitions, here. I have noticed I tend to agree with most of your other comments, though, so I am in inclined to doubt that our lack of agreement here is substantive.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-17T03:07:00+00:00

Yes, it was too blatant. Yet that is basically what most of these memes are saying.

Makes me so furious. It's just repackaged homophobia, all of it. Sometimes I debate just posting this stuff to public social media, just because I'm pretty sure most straight people have no idea that stuff like this is going on.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-17T03:02:17+00:00

Kathleen Stock doesn’t seem to be a political lesbian though as she doesn’t propagate that straight women should give women a try or that bisexuals should stop sleeping with men in the name of feminism, instead her argument seems to be that bisexual women who enjoy sex with men but prefer women should be called lesbians too (something I strongly disagree with).

Yup, I would agree with that assessment.

As Kathleen Stock is the trustee of the LGB Alliance that might be reason they don’t see problem with Julie Bindel stance on homosexuality as Kathleen Stock also sees homosexuality as a form of bisexuality.

Yes, exactly. This is what concerns me.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-17T02:59:04+00:00

This is a very relevant thread, thank you for sharing. A lot of those replies are echoing the same sentiments echoed by TQ supporters' belief in "compulsory heterosexuality," or comphet-- which is, in fact, a radfem belief. So I am not exactly heartened by that.

Do you see that top comment and its top reply, and the one after that (which is much higher rated like the first comment)? That is the spread of opinion among radfems, at play. The first and third comments acknowledge/accept the reality of sexual orientation being based in biology, the second comment minimizes and ignores it-- which is Julie Bindel's approach. The ratio's about 30:15 or 2:1, so if I were judging based on just this thread (questionable but I'm simplifying), I would say you are right, more radfems would disagree with Bindel than agree with her; I'm glad to see that. At the same time it seems like there's a pretty sizeable minority who are at least sympathetic to the anti-scientific part of her claims, so I'll continue to be concerned... but with the knowledge in mind that a lot (maybe the majority?) of individual radfems might completely disagree with Bindel on the homophobic parts of her claims.

Thank you for the thoughtful discussion, I appreciate it.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T05:34:13+00:00

Tell that to my nonbinary-identified coworkers. :/

the Macarena of identities.

Lol

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T05:32:13+00:00

Some straight women get way, way too into gender identity ideology.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T05:30:06+00:00

archive link of original post: https://archive.is/4Q4l3

archive link of Removeddit comments: https://archive.is/P5yVC

Some comments that got removed by moderators:

What? No.. no penis whatsoever

This entire thread is filled with bigoted comments suggesting that women who feel innately attracted to vaginas only should “unpack the transphobic root of their genital preference”, so I was suggesting that maybe the downvotes are coming from a place more reasonable than TERF ideology?

I get what you’re saying to an extent. But to be honest, there are legit NET POSITIVE posts on this sub telling women to “unpack the transphobic root of their aversion to penises” even though many of us have spent our entire fucking lives coming to terms with our attraction towards female sexual organs, so I’m not really buying the TERF allegations when this entire thread is filled will people provoking women (whether trans or straight!) into defending what is a 100% natural sexual preference. My god, what if I went to trans spaces and told people that they were shallow for committing to gender reaffirming surgery because it’s “not the genitals that count”. That may be true for some, but I shudder to think that there are comments routinely posted on this sub berating lesbians as transphobic for not liking dick. The moderation has made it clear that these posts are 100% acceptable, despite the glaringly obvious bigotry. It’s frankly gross.

I’m a lesbian. Female genitalia is central to my sexuality, so sue me!

but genitalia preferences exist and that’s not something people can control???? doesn’t make them idiots either

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T05:13:33+00:00

Yep, sure did with mine when I first started reading it a little over a year ago...

I have shown AL to two friends recently, though, and it shocked them and made them realize how homophobic the transgender movement can be. So now I have some moral support at least, lol.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T05:00:32+00:00

You know what lol, if you can get a laugh out of this insanity, I'd call that a win.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T04:59:42+00:00

A surprising amount are young teenagers, like 15 or younger. I'm not sure if you've ever clicked through their profiles but mid 20s or older men and young teenage girls seem to be the two biggest demographics on that sub.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T04:28:46+00:00

Found it! Here ya go, enjoy...

A real winner. I appreciated the "laugh" reacts on all my comments, though, lol. Think I pissed off a couple of them.

That post is exactly why I said in my earlier comment that I am "surprised and relieved," I assumed I was going to get another shitshow like that thread.

edit: bonus fun comments:

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T04:16:59+00:00

You're all good :) Ah, yeah that makes sense.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T04:15:13+00:00

I think most radfems find political lesbianism stupid.

Interesting. I wonder if there are any survey stats among radfems out there about this. Like, "most popular beliefs among radfems" or something.

The issue is some fruitloops have taken radical feminism not as the philosophical movement that it is , but turned it into an identity (like the genderfolk do with gender identity) .

I suppose what I really ought to do then is go lurk radfem forums and see what the consensus is. I don't have a ton of desire to do that but I am also curious now, lol. I just know that among a) radfems I've interacted with on saidit, and b) radfems who claim to speak for LGB people, "political lesbianism" is a popular concept. Perhaps both these groups are not representative of radfems in general. Not sure if you have seen it yourself but there are some users on this sub, including this one, who seem to believe it... which baffles me.

I would never call myself a radfem because i don't see it as an identity and some of the discussions are a bit too extremist for me. I am actually very much a more centrist person. I don't do extremes and I don't fit any molds.

Ah, okay, makes sense.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T04:10:11+00:00

I don't think this is a "colonizing" of lgb spaces or putting on an identity. She was a confused child. God i can't imagine growing up now it must be completely confusing.

She was an adult for some of it, though. And regardless of age, it's still colonizing LGB spaces that would've otherwise been for LGB teens/young adults her age. Perhaps I just find it easier to call her out for it because she's very close to my own age. It's frustrating as hell to watch my peers do this shit, and I think they ought to take responsibility for their actions. I actually really enjoy and appreciate Helena's interviews and work in the detrans community, but I also think it's fair to criticize her for this.

If you think the flair is misleading, though, I could switch it-- I was debating flairing it as "bisexual" as well since it's related to bi issues.

This is something else completely than a 30 year old straight guy calling himself queer because he's "non binary".

Yeah, that's true, and also, it still results in LGB spaces being taken over by straight people. I would call these both "colonizing," but perhaps opinion varies among this sub.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T04:01:00+00:00

No problem, I'm glad you found it interesting! Yes she really is. I have watched almost the whole interview, I thought she did an amazing job of describing what it's like to be knee-deep in gender identity beliefs and the trans community. She describes it in a level of detail that is often neglected in other videos/articles I've seen that try to describe it.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T03:58:10+00:00

In case you're curious, there was a discussion about her some months back: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/7xim/lesbians_arent_attracted_to_a_female_gender/

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T03:56:11+00:00

For example, a man who calls himself gay because he was molested as a kid and he internalised his abuse as a coping mechanism, believing that if he acted like he wanted it he’d feel less of a victim, and we all know that men don’t like being victims. Then he interacts with women and he starts to find them attractive, and realises he has feelings for them that he’s never had for other men, so he learns he is straight.

I've never heard this experience phrased like this before. Thank you for describing it. That makes a whole lot more sense, why a straight guy who was abused might mistakenly believe he is bi/gay just because he's avoiding accepting that he was a victim and did not want it. I almost wonder if Milo Yiannopoulos might be like this, since he said once that (basically) he was sexually abused as a young teen/child...?

Now, some of these straight men who previously thought they were bi or gay may mistakenly come to the conclusion that homosexuality isn’t real, or at least that bisexuality isn’t real. These men thought they liked men because they were deprived of male role models or they were abused then they were children, so they see homosexuality or bisexuality as something that is caused by environmental factors or mental illnesses that can be cured.

Ahh, okay. Wow, again, I didn't realize that this is the perspective that someone might come at it with.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T03:47:22+00:00

And...?

And, "LGBTQ+" circles include the entirety of social media that is dominated by "Queer Theory". You know, Tumblr? Reddit? I'm not sure how old you are, perhaps your perspective might differ because of age, but I am in gen Z and I see this stuff referenced on a very regular basis, not only online when I tried to find communities I could relate to regarding my sexual orientation, but among allllllll my friends and peers IRL. They parrot her talking points without even knowing it. Her "obscure" academic theories have infected my generation of LGB people and honestly I'm sick of it lol.

Hell, people joke about GS graduates working on dead-end jobs all the time, so you really think they have actual power to influence politics?

Yet Stonewall, up until this past year, and HRC still, has been raking in cash from the corporations that sign up for all their "gender identity" trainings. There is money in promoting gender identity ideology; whether it actually goes to gender studies major students per se, I am not aware. My guess is that the degrees of students who work at corporations that do these sorts of "training" probably come from a variety of social science degrees.

The problem is that people here focus way too much on Butler and way too little on the medical and legal industries and their role in the mess we are today.

It's easy to dunk on a single person, but way harder to do the same to institutions who do not have a tangible face.

I think that's a fair criticism. What sorts of posts would you like to see on this topic? I like to do longer researched posts with lots of statistics, but those take time. If you have a particular topic you have in mind, I can add it to my list.

I will say though, I also think there's nothing wrong with having a thread for venting, lol.

It's because almost anyone really cares about Queer Theory.

(*no one, I'm assuming you mean? Otherwise I agree, it does seem like a lot of people care about it.) Or because the faceless institutions, like you named, are doing a great job of censoring honest conversation about it...

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T03:38:40+00:00

100% the one accusing LGBAlliance as a money grabbing scheme.

Well they made a good case for it in this comment. You got a rebuttal for that? Like I said, I'm on the fence myself, but those are some good points.

I am less convinced they are a "money-grabbing scheme" per se and more convinced that they are a mostly-radfem organization seeking to exploit the existence of L/G people for their talking points. But just because I criticize an organization and its actions (or lack thereof) does not mean I am a troll.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-16T03:34:16+00:00

There's a difference between saying "the science is not yet settled" and "there is no evidence of genetic basis for sexual orientation." Julie Bindel has claimed the latter, not just the former. I do agree with you that the science is not settled.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T20:54:48+00:00

That's a fair point, she is the most extreme of the bunch. I guess the way I think about it is similar to how I think about religious organizations, e.g. the Catholic church: obviously, the people at the top tend to have the most egregiously harmful claims and actions. However, Catholics still are implicitly supporting those people at the top by being official members of the church, and while they might reasonable people in general, it seems unreasonable to support a pope who turned a blind eye to sexual abuse within the clergy, etc...

Perhaps there is a way for radfems and LGB people to coexist peacefully, without radfems trampling on the definition of sexual orientation. The "political lesbian" concept seems pretty popular in radfem circles, though. Maybe if there were some group of people who hold other radfem beliefs but not that one, then I would think much differently. It sounds like that's kinda more where you're coming from?

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T20:44:01+00:00

I think there exist more bisexual women in the world than straight women who are willing to suffer in same-sex relationships.

I am not convinced one way or another; they are both small groups but I think there are more straight women like that than you might think. It's a little tangential but I actually just posted about an example of a straight woman who was in a same-sex relationship due to gender identity ideology confusing her (the "some people claim that straight women never do this" comment was not in reference to you, to be clear!).

But, I would be curious to see actual numbers on these groups. This is all speculation though, I think it'd be hard to obtain those numbers.

She also says sex with women is hot in the article where she criticize bisexual women for not going febfem

Yeah, but she could just be lying, since she lies about the nature of sexual orientation. Generally, I think it's really important to believe people when they tell you something about their sexual orientation, but we're talking about somebody who is trying to hide/erase homosexuality and who believes that sexual orientation is a choice-- when it is not.

edit: Forgot to respond:

especially as there is no contradiction between being attracted to women and refraining to be with men for political reasons, febfems exist, and her actions make more sense in my opinion if we take her word for it.

That's true, she still could be febfem. But we still would not be "taking her word for it" because she claims she is lesbian, lol, not bisexual. This person has proved time and time again over a period of years that she is fine with spreading misinformation, regarding claims that have been debunked, so I think it's reasonable to question some of her other claims that are less easily debunk-able, as well.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T20:34:05+00:00

Reiche and Brooks scrubbed much of their online presence, but some remaining clues provided insight into the former. Reiche identifies as "non-binary" and uses "they/them" pronouns and was the deputy field organizer for Washington State Democrats, according to their now-deleted LinkedIn profile. Reiche is a radical queer and environmental activist who co-founded the Bellingham Lesbian Collective and co-hosted on "The L World" lesbian-themed podcast.

Is she...? She is "lesbian-identified" but she believes in "Queer Theory" where anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman. Could as easily be straight.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T20:20:52+00:00

I want to emphasize, I am not here to bash Helena, I think she does a fantastic job of speaking out about detransitioners' issues. However, I think it's fair to say that this is a pretty clear example of straight people "colonizing" LGB spaces. But at the end of the day, there are no repercussions for them leaving, because they aren't actually same-sex attracted, it's just an "identity" to put on and take off for them, like clothes.

Also-- I sometimes hear people on this sub say, "That never happens! Straight people NEVER pretend to be bisexual!" Well, here's your example.

edit: I should probably clarify, Helena did not intentionally "pretend" to be bisexual, it sounds like she genuinely thought she was back when she was confused. But she is a straight person who claimed she was bisexual when she wasn't.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T20:03:53+00:00

Who is the troll, throwaway999...? And if so, why do you think so? Sexual orientation is not a choice, and while I personally am not convinced either way about the motivations of LGB Alliance, I think it's fair to be cautious about an organization that purports to represent LGB people when so many other such organizations are, in fact, money-grabs. Such as Stonewall.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T20:00:04+00:00

Most radfems are reasonable.

Are they...? Bindel is one of the lead radfems and she is not reasonable-- she's homophobic and biphobic, and thinks that all women should "choose" to be lesbian.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T19:54:43+00:00

(There is no conclusive evidence that homosexuality is genetic by the way).

There is conclusive evidence that homosexuality is to at least some sizeable degree genetic, and conclusive evidence that to at least some degree that it is "environmental" in the sense of, formed/affected by conditions in the womb before birth-- not "environmental" in the sense of, say, something you could get bullied into.

I refer you to a couple of comments by u/GatitoMalo: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/8b6e/study_genetic_patterns_offer_clues_to_evolution/uuyb https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/7yuf/julie_bindel_theres_no_gay_gene_and_i_love_the/tr53

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T19:31:49+00:00

FINALLY found it!!! https://youtu.be/bt5DYGrZYnU?t=3584

Yes, it was Helena. Not a Benjamin Boyce video, this is with some religious guy, who asks great questions but take it with a handful of salt because he's religious, lol. At 59:44:

Interviewer: If I can ask, sexually, do you identify as lesbian, bisexual, or...?

Helena: Straight.

Interviewer: You do!? I thought you were bisexual. Or was that-- is that a whole nother podcast, or--

Helena: No, it's hard. I used to think I was bisexual, but, I realized, so-- I was in a pretty long relationship with a woman who also used to be a trans man, and like, we both got into a relationship when we were very confused, and like, in my head, a trans man was the same as like a biological man. So, like, we ended up becoming really close friends, and then, I guess just like, got confused... It was a really insane part of my life. So, this was, we met right after my mom and I had a huge fight, a huge falling out, where we ended up like, blocking each other and not talking to each other for like, six to twelve months...

... Probably six months before we ended up breaking up, I started realizing that like, Oh shit, I'm not attracted to women, this is not working, this is not gonna happen, this is really unhealthy, the only reason we're-- together like this, is because we kind of bonded over these traumatic experiences that happened to us. And so I started realizing I was straight. And we eventually broke up. And then now that that's over, and I don't have that influencing me anymore, it's very clear that I got majorly confused, and I am... pretty much as straight as it comes.

Then they get into the causes of sexual orientation... the interviewer mentioned that he has "friends" in "ex-gay arenas" (edit) though he doesn't agree with it. Ugh. Helena's answer is that you can't change her sexual orientation, but that some women who have trauma might misinterpret the signals their bodies are giving them as sexual attraction, or sexual arousal.

Maybe I should make a post about this. Didn't mean this to get that long, haha.

edit: posted https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/8dy6/former_mod_of_rdetrans_was_majorly_confused/

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T18:27:47+00:00

Nobody comes out looking like a hero fighting for women by implying that if they are with a man, something must be wrong with their ability to exercise agency or enforce boundaries.

Completely agree. Yet that is a common radfem belief.

I am all for "live and let live" as long as radfems can respect LGB people in that way, too, but it seems like Bindel cannot.

The more of this type of thought I encounter, the more it just seems like a TRA-abuse variant. It's so regularly both illogical and vitriolic.

Hmm, that's an interesting suggestion. I guess I meant it more in the sense of like, "Tolerance is something we should strive for." I think many religions have harmful beliefs but I also recognize that it's the right of people to believe in them anyway, and I don't expect to be able to convince all religious people ever to stop believing in them. But I could see how a trans rights activist might say, "Live and let live! How are trans people hurting you??" which implicitly denies that same-sex rights and "gender identity rights" are at odds with each other in many situations (sports, single-sex spaces, etc.).

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T18:23:49+00:00

Ours. I can go dig up the post if you're curious.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T18:23:12+00:00

These are mostly obscure academics who nobody outside specifics academic fields read or give a shite about.

They're not obscure in "LGBTQ+" circles, though. And even if the general public doesn't know their names, their actions have still vastly impacted the general public. It's the same reason why people these days will name and talk billionaires they've never heard of, who own giant corporations that influence our daily decisions. Just because we didn't know their names doesn't mean they aren't extremely relevant to talk about.

The ones who people here should be pointing fingers at are the medical and legal industries, also partly STEM and tech corporations.

Who were the ones going on TV in the 50s shilling proto-TRA talking points again?

Who are the ones gaining big money from surgical interventions on healthy people and case lawsuits?

All actors who should be kept in mind, I agree. But I still think it's entirely reasonable to angry at Butler as well. I will admit, even if she hadn't created this homophobic belief system, perhaps some other individual might have. But I am still going to hold her accountable for her actions. And the fact is, almost nobody (outside of this sub) seems to realize or acknowledge how homophobic and otherwise messed up "Queer Theory" is.

Perhaps there should be more content/posts about the money-making aspect of gender identity ideology as well, though. It's important to talk about.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T18:15:45+00:00

Thank you!

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T18:14:51+00:00

True, that's a good point. And a bisexual only organization against gender identity ideology would be pretty cool to see as well!

I guess I am just used to seeing the "only L/G" as a potential radical feminist calling card.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T18:13:20+00:00

Lollllll okay that is exactly what I am talking about haha. They sound so similar, because the points they're making are close to the same!

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T18:11:42+00:00

Whoops, thank you lol. Will fix!

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T18:11:05+00:00

Julie Bindel’s beliefs aren’t much different from trans activists as she also thinks sexual orientation can be unpacked.

That is what it seems like to me as well. I am really surprised that people at these two organizations don't seem to realize that... perhaps they are using selective applications of critical thinking, only applying it to TRAs' arguments.

It's said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I don’t think the intention was to cause harm in itself but I think most organizations who cause harm don’t have that as their specific intention. I.e I think even most trans activists who want to lesbians to unpack our “genital preferences” are probably genuinely under the illusion that sexual orientation is something a person can “unpack”.

That's very true. That perspective is important to keep in mind, if we (on this sub) are talking with any TRAs who are more willing to have a discussion, or with people who are unfamiliar with gender identity ideology.

I don't know why the LGB Alliance supports Julie Bindel, maybe they believe in the motto "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", or maybe they haven't done their research and thinks Julie Bindel is famous for being an outspoken lesbians instead of being an outspoken political lesbian.

All possibilities. I am also starting to wonder if perhaps they are just run by "political lesbians"... Kathleen Stock seems close to having those beliefs as well, or perhaps has them outright, and there are multiple other women around the same age as Bindel who I've noticed the same claims coming from.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-15T18:04:14+00:00

I think a woman who is exclusively attracted to men but doesn’t want to be with one due to political motives would rather stay single as there is no homonormative pressuring straight women to be in lesbian relationships so I think it would be quite rare that a straight woman would choose to torture herself like that decade after decade.

I think that many straight "political lesbians" might act in this way, as you described, but someone who is leading an ideology and who claims that "lesbian relationships are the best!" might well get into relationships with women in order to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, for the sake of the ideology rather than for the sake of reality (the reality of her sexual orientation). Humans who fervently believe in an ideology have done far stranger things.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T20:11:38+00:00

Could not agree more. It enrages me to see the damage that this one individual has brought upon generations of LGB people. And honestly, on women as well, and on other minority demographics, and on the general public.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T20:04:29+00:00

Thank you for taking a look, and no problem, I'm glad you think so too. I'm surprised and relieved so many other people on this thread share my concerns; I tried to say something similar to this in a post months ago, and got a lot of pissed-off comments telling me I "didn't understand radical feminism" and that I must be a woman-hating gay man (LOL).

Some of the people calling out LGB Alliance on that thread might be TRAs, but regardless, I think it is right to call her out on this.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T19:34:39+00:00

She often throws other women under the bus aswel.

Oh, really? I didn't realize, do you have any examples by chance? That checks out since she throws other demographics under the bus...

To me she is just a different version of a Judith Butler but her writing is a bit less word salad.

Right?? I really am having a hard time seeing the difference in beliefs. They both believe that sexual orientation is a choice you can make, that same-sex relationships are a "fun lifestyle," and that people "should" start identifying as different demographics than they objectively are in order to pursue political goals.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T19:28:44+00:00

Lol, I have not seen her Twitter, I'll take a look. Yeah sounds like it, good call.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T19:26:53+00:00

Most women who are slandered as "terf" are not even radfems or conservative.

Yes, that's true. (I just saw the comment you were responding to.) I think it's important to acknowledge that about the "T*RF" label.

I do also think that it is concerning that the DropTheT movement gets associated with homophobic people, though.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T19:20:05+00:00

I don't much like or agree with her, but I am basically in favor of heterodoxy.

I'm all for open debate and dialogue on a subject that we haven't found the final answers to. However, the key word here is dialogue. She completely ignores the science on the other side, and simultaneously parrots stereotypes about the demographics she claims to represent. "Lesbian relationships are all beautiful and perfect!" is some benevolent sexism BS, and she is still sitting there shitting on bisexual people. I do appreciate you looking out for supporting a diversity of views... but I guess I find this frustrating because she's not homosexual, yet claims to speak for homosexual women, taking up space that an actual homosexual woman might have used to describe our issues. And in doing so she choose to reinforce a bunch of stereotypes about same sex attracted people. AND, she has every incentive to use us as a convenient minority group to forward her political goals, literally calling her aim that of "political lesbianism". She doesn't seem like she's acting in good faith. And so I wonder, why should we put up with this when we don't put up with it from TRAs...? /rant lol, just my thoughts.

And I dunno, creating new words and them trying to enforce those words on people from older generations who didn't use those words/concepts is just too much of a TRA-style move for me to really feel comfortable with it.

Are the definitions "homosexual = exclusively same sex attracted" and "bisexual = attracted to both sexes" really new, though? I agree that although she might be febfem-- might, she also just might be a politically-motivated straight woman!-- it's not like we have to force her to call herself that.

edit: lol

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T19:09:53+00:00

That's correct, yes. That's part of why I'm concerned.

I won't jump to any conclusions about what her actual sexual orientation is, but it seems unlikely to be homosexual. She is clearly using the term "lesbian" to push her particular set of ideological beliefs and political goals, and she's doing it by spreading information about the phenomenon of same sex attraction, while posing as a community leader. That's why I'm worried about her.

I typed out a longer post that got deleted

Oh god I hate when that happens lol. Yeah no worries.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T19:07:09+00:00

Lol is this a covert anti-radfem post?

No, it's a post about homophobia and biphobia.

Saying women should choose to only date women is pro-lesbianism/bisexuality, imo.

How? Sexual orientation is not a choice. That's straight-up misinformation about lesbian and bisexual women, and I'd argue it's harmful because it encourages homophobic straight people to try to change our sexual orientation.

Women want companionship too much and will always succumb to men if they don't choose to be with women.

"Succumb to men"...? That's not true, some women are homosexual and in the long run the vast majority of them will live that out. And many bisexual women fall for women and don't necessarily "succumb to men" as well.

the rise of wives/moms leaving their straight lives and being with women is finally happening! A radfem's dream.

Do you believe in political lesbianism, then?

edit: typo

And, I would also add-- I am not radfem myself, and frankly yes I am suspicious of radical feminist ideology because its founders and leaders seem eager to spout homophobic BS, like Julie Bindel is choosing to do and has done for years. But the post is about LGB issues, first and foremost. I am all for "live and let live" as long as radfems can respect LGB people in that way, too, but it seems like Bindel cannot.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T11:57:31+00:00

That's something that always struck me about detransitioners. They were the helpless victims who were misled by Big Pharma and Big Trans and nobody tried hard enough to stop them.

This is a convenient narrative and I can definitely see the appeal. I have no doubt that a certain proportion of detransitioners were indeed helpless victims subject to perfidious doctors in the pocket of Big Pharma.

Late to this thread, but I just wanted to say, this is a really good point. Perhaps we ought to distinguish more often between child transitioners-- who really were pressured into it-- as opposed to those who medically transitioned as consenting adults.

I also worry that some of the people who do pose this framing of detransitioners may be emphasizing the experience of heterosexual detrans people, and disenfranchising that of LGB people. For example, a transman who fetishizes gay men then detransitions might suggest that she was conned, and to at least some extent she was, but it's worth acknowledging the part her actions played in negatively impacting gay male communities. She was still an identity tourist.

Even if you make an honest mistake, you still have to take responsibility for your actions. That's what's missing from the narrative. Ultimately, LGB people lose out in the end.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:44:13+00:00

I'm inclined to agree, but I also agree with OP that a lot of the comments on this post are homophobic...

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:43:02+00:00

"Good. No one needs kids being taught by a teaching showing off about his sexual behaviours. That’s just unnecessary narcissism and I’m glad the school stood up and said “inappropriate”!"

Basically repackaged I don't care if you're gay I just don't want to see it in public.

Homophobia from GC people , TRAs and the religious right. Not looking good.

Completely agree. While I think the discussions on this sub about the proper place for the Pride flag are interesting and relevant, this is an important point to emphasize, perhaps the main point. From all three ideological groups, too.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:41:04+00:00

Totally agree, there are some homophobic comments in there.

Relevant-- I saw this same twitter account, @ripx4nutmeg, retweeting Ben Schapiro. The person who runs this account works with Graham Linehan on The Glinner Update. I'm not sure if they are just more conservative, but I think the homophobia found in some radfem circles is leaking.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:35:28+00:00

Trump does not realise that these websites exist. He thinks that there’s only Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram and TikTok.

Yeah, that sounds like him...

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:34:24+00:00

Straight and "queer" is also my guess.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:29:11+00:00

No idea how French works so I vote you two have to do a rock paper scissors on it.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:28:25+00:00

I don't like the histrionics of the Résistance Lesbienne.

Not familiar with this group, so I don't know their values or background at all. But some of the American "lesbian resistance" groups I've seen tend to be about political lesbianism, not movements for/by homosexual women. So I would be inclined to be suspicious on that basis alone.

I think the title is pretty accurate though. "Trans rights activist waves object on fire threateningly" would also be accurate.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:23:34+00:00

It might have been mostly to piss off the pope, but he did it.

I mean, I can get behind that, lol.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:19:41+00:00

God damn. I mean, the truth has a way of haunting you.

I hope this person is able to find some quality therapy, and that they are able to accept the reality of biological sex... because it's not going away anytime soon.

(edited for consistency with post.)

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:17:02+00:00

My guess is that most are trying to express that they feel discomfort with their bodies, mistakenly assuming that most women don't and they're the odd ones out for feeling like that. In reality, it's the opposite; I don't think I've met a single "cis" woman, ever, who's had no discomfort with her female body in some way.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:14:37+00:00

One of the former mods of s/detrans did a Youtube interview describing how she thought she was bisexual, back when she was deep into gender identity ideology, and got into a relationship with another trans-identified female. Then she realized that she was straight and was kind of forcing herself to do that. Whenever I see a couple like this, I wonder whether they are straight girls thinking their sexuality is fluid and is whatever they want it to be, and not really paying attention to how their body feels, like the detrans mod did.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:10:59+00:00

Agreed.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:10:17+00:00

The New Gay Liberation Front is an organization that advocates for the rights of gay men and lesbians.

Not including bisexual people...? Not trying to rain on the parade here, but makes me wonder if this is a radfem front. They don't like bisexual women.

I hesitate to call this a victory until there is more information about this organization. I do recognize Belissa-- I believe she is/was a part of LGB Fight Back? But again, they are a relatively new organization as well.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T10:03:48+00:00

I think I get what you mean. I saw a conversation a while back on s/lesbians I think about how there seems to be a difference in the level of disgust that individual homosexual people feel about opposite-sex sexual experiences. E.g., some lesbian women feel somewhat grossed out, some feel very grossed out, by the idea of sleeping with a man, but some may have little to no feelings of repulsion, it just does nothing for them.

I totally get why many LGB people want to be clear about the fact that opposite-sex attraction is not something a homosexual person experiences; some homophobic people try to deny that, and further deny that there are any homosexual (exclusively same sex attracted) people at all. However, I kinda wonder if this is a topic on which there just happen to be naturally-occurring differences among homosexual people, which might lead to some trouble understanding each other and relating to each other.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T09:55:21+00:00

Perhaps they should stay in their experiential lane unless they have plausible studies to back up their claims about the inhabitants of bodies they don't possess.

Yuppppp. And that's unlikely to happen because a bunch of sex researchers seem to think that "wOmEn ArE tOo pUrE" to have the range of sexual feelings, experiences, and paraphilias that men do, so they refuse to investigate the possibility...

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T09:52:51+00:00

No prob, just being honest :)

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T09:51:17+00:00

(My ire is not directed at you, of course. I'm just tired of this lazy, bisexual-erasure, they're-attracted-to-everybody nonsense.)

All good, thank you for explaining your thoughts! I guess there needs to be some sort of distinction between, "people who are attracted to both sexes could be attracted to trans-identified people" vs. "all people who are attracted to both sexes are into trans-identified people." I do think there is real harm in suggesting that transgender people are "bisexual people's problem" as the phrasing of some users here might imply (intentionally or unintentionally). But I also think it's important to have a universally-agreed-upon term for people who are attracted to both sexes, and in most contexts (not TQ+ ones, and maybe not some bisexual communities?) that term tends to be "bisexual".

For me I guess, the way I think of it is, I might not be into a woman (female person, to be crystal clear) who has gone through a lot of transgender medicalization, but I wouldn't try to find a different word to describe lesbian women who are fine with that vs. those who don't. I am not really up to speed on the popularity of terms like bisexual vs. pansexual, though, perhaps bi people in general might think differently. I think u/PeakingPeachEater may have done an in-depth discussion post about this topic a while back, if you haven't seen it already.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-14T09:39:04+00:00

17 years old are not children. They're teens, almost adult

Almost adult, but still not-- that is, children. We shall have to agree to disagree. :)

Someone interested in someone that young is either perverted, abusive or emotionally stunted in search of extreme youth to feel young.

Yes, that is my guess as well.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-11T18:25:55+00:00

I would say in the states are much more taboo. Damn, you guys think 16 years old cannot consent lol

Yes I do think that.

Here there was a famous movies where a 17 years old girl ended up falling in love with 40 years old man and was popular.

That's really crazy to me. Massive power differential there because of the age difference... and one is a child.

I think that of course this kinda of age gap are perverted and can't never lead to an healthy equal relationship.

Well at least we can agree on that, haha.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-11T18:23:14+00:00

Nowadays, now that lifespan is much longer in many countries than it used to be, you mean?

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-11T18:21:59+00:00

For a second I thought you were responding to JulienMayfair and was like "Damn, I didn't think Elvira was 50."

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-11T18:17:51+00:00

Hahahaha wait I think I might've done something like that, too. Oh my god, lol. You've brought back memories.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-11T18:16:49+00:00

That is where I am at. At this point I feel more comfortable with "homosexual" than with lesbian. Yet both terms are mocked and called "bigoted" and "outdated" by many in the TQ movement.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-11T18:15:33+00:00

Come on, seriously?

You know, there is nothing wrong with being a gay woman who relates to straight men. Doesn't mean you are one. I have chatted before with my friends who are straight guys about being attracted to women. It is something that's relatable for us both, but it doesn't change reality, which is that I am not a straight man.

s/TransTheGayAway

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-11T18:12:21+00:00

Oh my god lol. That's so true. That is just beyond messed up.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-11T18:11:39+00:00

Link to discussion post

"Pronoun police" in the literal sense now... I can't believe it yet it's right there in front of my eyes.

reluctant_commenter · 2021-09-11T18:03:50+00:00

Right after interviewing bisexual lesbophobe identified as "non-binary lesbian" Judith Butler

YES. Didn't even get farther than this line and I just want to say, THANK YOU for describing her accurately.

This article is so fucked up. Sickens me. Lesbian women are being erased one by one. I feel like some kind of freak, not knowing almost anybody else IRL who is like me. It's just so frustrating to see an entire (albeit small) demographic get systematically wiped out of news articles and history books. :(

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