Women's Issues"‘If I had gone through with a gender transition, I would have committed suicide / As the controversial Tavistock Clinic is forced to close, one young woman reveals how deeply ‘transitioning’ on the NHS affected her"

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[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This perspective is important and I don’t want to take away from that, but admittedly the headline quote makes me feel all 😬. I’ve gotten rather sensitive about the way TRAs guilt and extort people using vague threats of suicide, and this is just too close to that for my liking. We need to be really careful about how we discuss suicide and “I would have committed suicide if I had transitioned” is not that, you know? You also don’t KNOW you would have committed suicide in a hypothetical situation that did not happen.

I really don’t want this to be the norm of discourse. Statements like that are intended to shut down discussion not facilitate it. Quite frankly it’s a childish way to think and to try to change others’ opinions.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You also don’t KNOW you would have committed suicide in a hypothetical situation that did not happen.

That's true; it is speculation. One could argue it's a cognitive distortion (specifically, predictive thinking / "jumping to conclusions").

Quite frankly it’s a childish way to think and to try to change others’ opinions.

I don't think "childish" is a fair characterization of this thought. In my opinion, it comes from a place of pain. Does pain have an age? -- I'll admit I'm biased, so, take my words with a handful of salt; I mentioned in my comment that I've often had this thought myself before. But on reflection I do agree with you that it is inaccurate (or at least, not necessarily accurate). I would even go a step further: the thought is in some respects "self-centered" in the most literal sense of the phrase: I'm not sure she was even thinking about how it might affect or harm other people.

I can't speak for this woman but if I were to try and better phrase the idea that I'm trying to get at when I think, "If I had gone through with a gender transition, I would have committed suicide," I might say something like this:

  • Some proportion of LGB people who (wrongly) transition do commit suicide.

  • There are a number of LGB people suffering "gender dysphoria" who have decided not to transition.

  • The suicide risk for gender dysphoric LGB people who decide not to transition is being incredibly understated and ignored.

Anyone feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong on the facts here, but my view is: There are next to no resources for people like her (or for people like me who never tried to transition). So there's little chance for these people to practice talking about this experience, the experience of being LGB and having the exact same gender dysphoric issues as trans people and yet getting reviled and shunned and gaslit for making the decision to not transition-- all while watching the entirety of social media fawn over trans people for their "suffering." It's hard being in this position in a way that I have trouble putting words to.

My biased opinion is that I think she used the best language that she is currently aware of. I do agree, the way that this person in the article phrased it is a harmful way to talk about suicide, especially in the long run; and for myself, I'll try to keep an eye on my own language. But if we want better communication on this subject we need more opportunities for people in this position to practice talking about it. (I do on this sub, occasionally, but I often feel hesitant to because I am not sure how well it will be received.)

Thoughts...? I'm not trying to be combative here, I hear your concern and I agree that it's important to get this right.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with you. I kind of knew I was typing out something half-baked because I didn’t have the time to get my thoughts fully in order but the issue was nagging me. By childish I mainly mean the “fully support everything we say about transition or you’re responsible for suicide” narrative that people throw around causally to shut down conversation and shame people. I don’t think this article is on par with that. It’s more that I don’t want it to reach that point, that I want us to be mindful, and that when we talk about something potentially leading to suicide I think we must heighten our standards of discourse and really explain the context and the thought process without tending toward sensationalism.

I still think it’s nowhere near on the level of “give me exogenous cross-sex hormones immediately and with no scrutiny so I can grow breasts or I’ll inevitably kill myself.” Of course it’s helpful to point out that studies do not support that medical transition reduces suicidality and logically giving exogenous cross-sex hormones to people experiencing actual suicidal ideation may not only not help but might make things worse.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course it’s helpful to point out that studies do not support that medical transition reduces suicidality and logically giving exogenous cross-sex hormones to people experiencing actual suicidal ideation may not only not help but might make things worse.

Yes... another reason why I'm not sure this claim is equivalent to the "transition me or I'll kill myself" threats that TRAs make. A great example is this study, which I discovered recently:

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9).

(aHR stands for confound-adjusted hazard ratio... e.g., they found that the risk of dying by suicide was 19.1 times higher in the surgically transitioned group.)

It’s more that I don’t want it to reach that point, that I want us to be mindful

Yeah that makes sense, I hear you there.