Sex & IntimacyTo any gay man here, would you seriously date and/or have sex with a TIF?

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.LGBDropTheT

So I've been in the middle of an annoying argument with a bunnch of other gay men on the r/askgaybros subreddit where they were saying that gay men would never be interested in me because I'm too feminine in my personal style and appearance and they were saying that the only men who'd be interested in me are "GAMPS". I did ay that I acknowledge that most gay men are not typically attracted to feminine, especially feminine presenting men but that at the end of the day, men who can find men like myself attractive are still falling in the homoexual orientation because at the end of the day, men like myseld (and this included TIMs) are still men, we are still biologically male. It doesn't matter if a guy gets fake bolt-ons and/or have his penis mutilated and inverted (he'd just be a dickless man), that we're still men when you remove the clothes and/or makeup.

The point I was trying to get across is that "Gamps" are not straight and are more than likely bisexual or the very rare case of a gay man being attracted to feminine men and I just got dogpiled on for saying this. It got to the point where they were saying that a gay man would sooner date and/or have sex with a TIF than a feminine man and to me I'm just thinking that if this is true, those men wouldn't be gay now would they?

It's true that tesosterone is a hell of a drug and can really transform a TIF's look to where I can see a gay man being attracted to them on the surface Heck, I've seen some TIFs who I thought were attractive like this woman and this woman to name a few. But it's the knowledge that down below they have a vagina is what kills the attraction for me and I'm more than confident that it's the same for other gay men as well. And that if you're a self-proclaimed gay man and you actually have sex with a TIF and actually like it, it just means that they had their bisexual awakening on the reverse end.

I mean, am I alone in this? Have any of you gay men actually slept with and/or dated a TIF? Would you? Could you?

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[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Even seeing these pics of these TiFs there is something really off about their faces. They just look like buff masculinized women.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That makes sense. I think it's the eyes.

[–]SerpensInferna 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's always the eyes for me, women's eyes are just shaped different. Also the lack of brow ridge is by far the biggest giveaway.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

also the lack of brow ridge

Oh my gosh this! This is the other feature that makes it noticeable as well but I couldn't really put it into words. But yes, the brow ridge is definitely a ringer.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The point I was trying to get across is that "Gamps" are not straight and are more than likely bisexual or the very rare case of a gay man being attracted to feminine men and I just got dogpiled on for saying this.

There's two schools of thought in regards to this subject: the people who believe GAMPs are straight men with futa fetishes and others who believe they're just bisexual men on denial.

I would argue that both have their points of truth, as there are straight men who have futa fetishes (aka biological women who have dicks) and men who use their MtF chasing as a front to hide their bisexuality.

There's also a third factor, which is sex addiction.

It got to the point where they were saying that a gay man would sooner date and/or have sex with a TIF than a feminine man and to me I'm just thinking that if this is true, those men wouldn't be gay now would they?

This looks like what some HSTS say about masculine women: that most straight men would rather go for a MtF than a butch women.

We all know that's not the case, because straight men know very well what a women is.

With all of that said, this is probably copium coming from TIFs or bisexual men.

It's true that tesosterone is a hell of a drug and can really transform a TIF's look to where I can see a gay man being attracted to them on the surface Heck, I've seen some TIFs who I thought were attractive like this woman JPG and this woman JPG to name a few.

There are women, and men, who can larp very well as the opposite sex, so I don't find this surprising.

It's also crucial to remember that most of these photos are carefully taken to make these MtFs/FtMs "pass" and that there's a big difference between how they really look on them and IRL.

Also, I love how the two examples of "passing" FtMs you provided went for the roided out look, which will totally not have grave consequences for them in the future (remember Buck Angel? Yeah...). Also they went the extra mile to hide their hips on the shot, so that's an extra 5 points for the effort.

Have any of you gay men actually slept with and/or dated a TIF? Would you? Could you?

No to all three.

Even if I ignore the fact these women are women, which is already an turn off for me, there's also the fact that most "gay" FtM tend to be huge fetishists who have even secret conversion therapy cravings.

Even the ones who aren't totally crazy are clearly straight women larping as gay from every pore from their body: behaviour, how they speak with other people and so on.

It just feels off.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I would argue that both have their points of truth, as there are straight men who have futa fetishes (aka biological women who have dicks) and men who use their MtF chasing as a front to hide their bisexuality.

I'm sorry but I still find this BS. In the real world "Futa" are actually just men with tits. I get that in the fantasy art world, "Futa" are drawn with overtly female faces but that's the art world and the guys who look at that kinda stuff are doing it for the dick, the male sexual organ. And again in real life, "Futa" are just trans-identified men who look like dudes in makeup regardless of the angles and lighting used in the "Tranny porn". I cannot accept that "straight" men want to see feminized men because they don't do dick no matter how feminine the man loos. So no, I think a "GAMP" is just a straight up bisexual man who is attracted to femininity regardless of the sex. It's still bisexual at the end of the day and not even close to "straight" like these closet-cases try to spin it as.

This looks like what some HSTS say about masculine women: that most straight men would rather go for a MtF than a butch women.

It does only the reverse since I'm getting it from delusional women who think they're gay men and that because they're attracting these bisexual men who call themselves gay, it satiates their deluded egos that they can attract gay men.

It's also crucial to remember that most of these photos are carefully taken to make these MtFs/FtMs "pass" and that there's a big difference between how they really look on them and IRL.

I think you're right tbh. I work at a gym and we have 3 TIMs and 2 TIFs who are regulars. The TIMs don't "pass" at all when you see them up close and especially when you hear their voices which sound like flamboyant "lisp" voice. The TIFs, they sound like women when they talk and one of them who "passes" at a glance, when you actually look at her for more than a few seconds, you start to see the female traits come through even though she has a beard but I've seen her on Grindr and she does some sort of editing that flattens her chest a bit to make it not look lie she has breasts when IRL, she does. So yeah agreed, all smoke and mirrors.

Also, I love how the two examples of "passing" FtMs you provided went for the roided out look, which will totally not have grave consequences for them in the future (remember Buck Angel? Yeah...). Also they went the extra mile to hide their hips on the shot, so that's an extra 5 points for the effort.

That's true, I forgot about that LOL Buck Angel's uterus fell out right?

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'm sorry but I still find this BS. In the real world "Futa" are actually just men with tits. I get that in the fantasy art world, "Futa" are drawn with overtly female faces but that's the art world and the guys who look at that kinda stuff are doing it for the dick, the male sexual organ.

Fair point.

I cannot accept that "straight" men want to see feminized men because they don't do dick no matter how feminine the man loos. So no, I think a "GAMP" is just a straight up bisexual man who is attracted to femininity regardless of the sex. It's still bisexual at the end of the day and not even close to "straight" like these closet-cases try to spin it as.

I think some people, myself included, are reluctant to call them full on bisexual because they almost never go for men who present in a masculine way, which ends up blurring things.

Personally, I would describe them more as "pseudo-bisexuals", to be fair.

I've seen her on Grindr and she does some sort of editing that flattens her chest a bit to make it not look lie she has breasts when IRL, she does. So yeah agreed, all smoke and mirrors.

That's a gigantic red flag right there.

That's true, I forgot about that LOL Buck Angel's uterus fell out right?

Not exactly.

What happened was that their reproductive system started to wither away because of the testosterone and roid abuse, which started to kill they from within.

That's why not-FtM women who abuse steroids (yes, those exist) generally go for hysterectomies before starting: it fucks them up even worse than men who do the same.

Fun fact: most of these roid abusing women are kind of very masculine themselves, to the point of passing as male if they chose to cut their hair short and have a mastectomy. This is because they're not that different (functionally speaking of couse) than FtMs in this regard.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think some people, myself included, are reluctant to call them full on bisexual because they almost never go for men who present in a masculine way

I'm sorry but my response to that is "so?" So they don't go for masculine looking men. It doesn't matter because they are still going for a type of man, a hyper feminized man. It's still a man at the end of the day and by definition that is a homosexual attraction. Do you get what I'm saying? We feminine men are still men at the end of the day. It's not "pseudo bisexuality" and this is part of the problem. The thought process behind that is that because we feminine men are not conforming to masculinity, we aren't seen as "real men" and that's ridiculous. Women are not emotional lapdogs and shouldn't be expected to widen their definition of "woman" to include men who refuse to conform to masculinity and that attraction to men like myself is just as gay as attraction to masculine men. We are a type of man and that's just the way it is.

Entertaining this BS nonsense that these men who go for hyper-feminized men are "pseudo bisexuals" sets a really bad precedent that fuels their internalized homophobia and makes these guys continue to treat feminine men as sex objects and as a feminine man myself who had to go through that in my 20s and still going through it now, I want that to fucking stop and the only way to stop that is to stop satiating and validating the absurdity that liking hyper feminized men doesn't count as a real homosexual attraction.

What happened was that their reproductive system started to wither away because of the testosterone and roid abuse, which started to kill they from within.

Oh right. I think she had a septic shock issue when that happened too right? Sorry, it's been a minute since I watched anything with Buck Angel, the last thing I saw of her was when she interviewed with Meghan Murphy and I remember she went into long detail about her past but it's been a while so I kinda forgot some things. Though I do remember that she said that she used to get treated like absolute shit back in the 1980s as a gender nonconforming woman like how she got beat up by some men and even raped, had parts of her truck stolen whenever she was out in public, and a troubles at her university. It's pretty obvious with how she developed internalized misogyny within herself that set her down the path of self-delusion.

That's why not-FtM women who abuse steroids (yes, those exist) generally go for hysterectomies before starting: it fucks them up even worse than men who do the same

Ah I see. I work at a gym and sometiems will come across a roided out woman but never knew about the possibility that they'd get hysterectomies.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So they don't go for masculine looking men. It doesn't matter because they are still going for a type of man, a hyper feminized man. It's still a man at the end of the day and by definition that is a homosexual attraction.

There's a canyon of a difference between a feminine man and a MtF, which is mainly due to the fact the latter goes for surgery specifically designed to emulate female characteristics, while the former does not.

It's also interesting to note that GAMPs mainly go for MtFs and not feminine males, but still, I believe your main point still stands: they're both males and there's nothing "straight" about a guy going for a MtF.

But then again, I could be wrong, as I have never seen chasers go for feminine males personally, so if you could clear if this is the case, I would be very grateful.

Entertaining this BS nonsense that these men who go for hyper-feminized men are "pseudo bisexuals" sets a really bad precedent that fuels their internalized homophobia and makes these guys continue to treat feminine men as sex objects and as a feminine man myself who had to go through that in my 20s and still going through it now, I want that to fucking stop and the only way to stop that is to stop satiating and validating the absurdity that liking hyper feminized men doesn't count as a real homosexual attraction.

This is very sad to hear.

Even though we are in 2022, gay culture still is pretty much "underground" in many places, which naturally ends up attracting very unpleasant types who are allergic to any type of serious attachments.

Case in point: even today there's still many married guys who only go to gay spaces to "relieve" day-to-day strees while leaving their wives and loved ones oblivious to it.

And yes, even on liberal areas this is still the case.

These are the ones most prone to seeing us as mere sexual objects (while being very homophobic, may I add) and are people who should be avoided.

Oh right. I think she had a septic shock issue when that happened too right? Sorry, it's been a minute since I watched anything with Buck Angel, the last thing I saw of her was when she interviewed with Meghan Murphy and I remember she went into long detail about her past but it's been a while so I kinda forgot some things. Though I do remember that she said that she used to get treated like absolute shit back in the 1980s as a gender nonconforming woman like how she got beat up by some men and even raped, had parts of her truck stolen whenever she was out in public, and a troubles at her university. It's pretty obvious with how she developed internalized misogyny within herself that set her down the path of self-delusion.

I didn't know this specific aspect of Buck Angel's background, so thanks for the info.

It really puts things into perspective, all while explaining why she decided to go for the roided out "tough guy" look.

Ah I see. I work at a gym and sometimes will come across a roided out woman but never knew about the possibility that they'd get hysterectomies.

The ones who do it generally are into pro weight lifting and other similar competitive fields, all of which are know to be filled with roid abusers.

They either have the procedure or risk suffering from the side-effects of roid abuse earlier than most males who do the same, which undesirable in such high performance field. Hell, some of them are even known to have abused testosterone as well.

We only don't hear many stories about it because this is a niche thing.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There's a canyon of a difference between a feminine man and a MtF, which is mainly due to the fact the latter goes for surgery specifically designed to emulate female characteristics, while the former does not.

The only difference between an effeminate, gender nonconforming man like myself and a trans-identified man is that the trans-identified man either grew hormone "moobs", or got fake bolt-on implants and deludes himself into thinking that doing all that makes them a woman. One is living in reality, the other is living in denial. And that's the hilariously stupid thing about it. Women are not breasts and "front holes" made out of penis tissue. The scope of being a woman is not measured by whether a man wants to fuck them or not. What I'm saying is that the men who go a step further and mutilate their bodies, they aren't any more of a woman for it and are just men who had cosmetic surgery and attraction to them is still homosexual, it's still same sex. Want proof? Ask how many men woudl seriously stick their dick in a "rotpocket"? The amount is gonna be next to none and its' because they know that it's not a vagina. And the reality is that the men going for these are closet-case bisexuals who want to satiate their craving for dick (something only men can have) but lie to themselves thinking that if they get the dick from a hyper feminized man than it's still "straight" and that is the delusion.

But then again, I could be wrong, as I have never seen chasers go for feminine males personally, so if you could clear if this is the case, I would be very grateful.

Oh it'd be my (dis)pleasure to share this with you. I'm on Grindr, not as much as I used to be because I'm not trying to find hookups and I get tired of the barrage of dick pics but when I was active on there in my 20s and even when I sometimes sign in on the app now, I would get messages from guys who were saying that they were only interested in trans-identified men and even when I told them that I wasn't trans-identified, that I didn't think I was a woman they didn't care, they still wanted to meet up with me. They'd still send me dick pics. And as you've seen in my photo, I don't have any cosmetic work done on me at all. And if Grindr kept chat logs that extended at least 10 years, I would show you just how frequent I was getting these so called "trans-attracted men". And I remember when I was talking to another gender nonconforming gay man on YouTube in the comments section (he wasn't a content creator like I was) who presents in a non-masculine or "boyish"passing way, he confided in me that the experience was the same for him. Are there some bi men out there who only want to engage with men who've gotten the cosmetic work? Sure but I can say a huge number of them really couldn't care less. As long as you're a man who doesn't present in a "manly man" or even "soft boy" way (though a good many even go for that, the "soft boy/flamboyant" look, they don't care, they want the feminine man dick whether he has bolt-ons or not. This is why I can speak with such clarity on the issue, this experience spans a decade. I'm 30 going on 31 and I hopped onto Grindr when I was 18-19 and was active on there for a good while. I started presenting more overtly feminine when I was 22 and the attention only tripled (even though most men were not my type tbf). So believe me, I know what I'm talking about here lol.

Case in point: even today there's still many married guys who only go to gay spaces to "relieve" day-to-day strees while leaving their wives and loved ones oblivious to it.

These are the ones most prone to seeing us as mere sexual objects (while being very homophobic, may I add) and are people who should be avoided.

This is true but there's another layer added to that when we're talking about men like myself, the GNC men who don't try to look masculine or mannish. A lot of those men I told you about who hit me up, a lot of them were married or guys who had a GFs. It was the biggest deal breaker for me even back when I first got onto Grindr. A lot of these men were those ones who claimed to only be "trans-attracted" ("transwomen only, no men" they shout in their bios yet still go for guys like myself lol).

But I argue men like myself get it worse in this regard because there are plenty of non-feminine/Gender nonconforming men in relationships with other men be them gay or bisexual. You know the whole Masc4Masc crowd, at the gym I work at I see plenty of "normal" gay men in relationships. But guys like myself? Hardly. And it's because feminine men, mainly the ones who actively look feminine are still stigmatized in society and this stigmatization is what the (usually) bisexual men worry about and it's why they take special force in only seeing men like myself as sex objects. Even the deluded TIMs still have to deal with this even when they get the fake "moobs" and the few who do get into relationships with other men, these men will hold them to a ridiculously high standard that they wouldn't hold women to like expecting the TIM to be dolled up 22/7, anything that won't "trigger" the reality that they're actually dating another man at the end of the day. Relationships built on lies never last and that's why it's rarity for even TIM to have a long-lasting relationship and even with that, built on truth and honesty.

I didn't know this specific aspect of Buck Angel's background, so thanks for the info.

I actually used the wrong term, it wasn't "septic shock". So what happened is that she had a uterine atrophy from the testosterone that turned into sepsis which almost killed her and it's why she had to get the hysterectomy. My bad but yet she still has the nerve to say that her life was improved since she "transitioned". Is she that fucking mental? lol She almost died from it and I'm sure she's still experiencing messed up health complications that have tied her to be a life-long patient to the hospital.

We only don't hear many stories about it because this is a niche thing.

Right well I hope we do see more women talk about it with time. Thought I think the reason why it hasn't happened yet is because women interested in bodybuilding is quite rare compared to men. Like at my gym, there are only about 3 obviously roided out women who go there whereas there are like 10-12 roided out men and this is chain gym too so it's not one of those smaller ones.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Want proof? Ask how many men woudl seriously stick their dick in a "rotpocket"? The amount is gonna be next to none and its' because they know that it's not a vagina. And the reality is that the men going for these are closet-case bisexuals who want to satiate their craving for dick (something only men can have) but lie to themselves thinking that if they get the dick from a hyper feminized man than it's still "straight" and that is the delusion.

Excellent point.

I agree 100% with this: these chasers go for MtFs specifically because they provide a relatively "safe" environment for them to experiment with their sexuality, and by "safe" I mean that it provides them with deniability which they can cling into.

I've heard stories of MtFs getting really frustrated because the "straight" males which go for them are really obsessed with dicks, hilariously enough.

I would get messages from guys who were saying that they were only interested in trans-identified men and even when I told them that I wasn't trans-identified, that I didn't think I was a woman they didn't care, they still wanted to meet up with me. They'd still send me dick pics. And as you've seen in my photo, I don't have any cosmetic work done on me at all. And if Grindr kept chat logs that extended at least 10 years, I would show you just how frequent I was getting these so called "trans-attracted men".

Wow, I didn't know that was the case!

This only confirms that these men go for MtFs as a way to cope with the fact they aren't really straight.

Even the deluded TIMs still have to deal with this even when they get the fake "moobs" and the few who do get into relationships with other men, these men will hold them to a ridiculously high standard that they wouldn't hold women to like expecting the TIM to be dolled up 22/7, anything that won't "trigger" the reality that they're actually dating another man at the end of the day.

The most interesting thing to take from this is that GAMPs are not only deluding themselves, but also the MtFs they orbit around, putting lies on their profiles in order to better attract them.

Remember: most HSTS are turned off by males who also go for other males, which makes this all even more hilarious. They lie about being female while at the same time they're being lied to by chasers.

How poetic...

My bad but yet she still has the nerve to say that her life was improved since she "transitioned". Is she that fucking mental? lol She almost died from it and I'm sure she's still experiencing messed up health complications that have tied her to be a life-long patient to the hospital.

This is copium with a mixture of sunken cost falacy, you know that.

If she admits now that transitioning was a mistake, then what's left for her? She would have spent multiple years of her life sustaining a lie, and what for? Being cheated on by her wife, fetishized by creepers and multiple crippling health problems?!

And unfortunately, this is going to be the exact destiny reserved for many of these FtMs, if not worse!

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree 100% with this: these chasers go for MtFs specifically because they provide a relatively "safe" environment for them to experiment with their sexuality, and by "safe" I mean that it provides them with deniability which they can cling into. I've heard stories of MtFs getting really frustrated because the "straight" males which go for them are really obsessed with dicks, hilariously enough. Yep, it's a relationship and attraction built on delusional lies. And exactly, the fact that these men are so obsessed with dick and how that drives them to TIMs who they themselves, don't want attention on their dick most of the time is just hilarious but again, shows why at the end of the day, these "trans-attracted" men are closet-case bisexuals deep down because they know the only way to get dick is to go to men, adult human males.

The most interesting thing to take from this is that GAMPs are not only deluding themselves, but also the MtFs they orbit around, putting lies on their profiles in order to better attract them. Remember: most HSTS are turned off by males who also go for other males, which makes this all even more hilarious. They lie about being female while at the same time they're being lied to by chasers.

Exactly and that is why in the end no one is truly satisfied. No one is truly happy and things would be different if both parties accepted themselves for what they truly are. That's why I don't hold back with my views because as I explained before, these closet-case bisexuals try to push and use that nonsense on those of us gender nonconforming men who don't lie about who we are but I also acknowledge that "HSTS" are the effeminate GNC gay men who got super frustrated with how hard it was to date in the gay scene and resorted to deluding themselves into believing they are women in the hopes of being able to finally attract more men. As a fellow feminine GNC man who has struggled to find a relationship, I sympathize with these men to a point because I get the struggle, I really do. But lying about reality is not the answer to this and as they more than likely see, they still attract the same men they were more than likely attracting before. Sure they may be getting more quantity of them but it's all the same BS of closet-cases who mostly view them as sex objects so nothing really changes aside from the fact that if these HSTS TIMs are taking HRT and/or surgeries, they'll be experiencing declining health at an earlier age and I think that's unfortunate. Especially because if they actually do get a relationship, aside from it being built on delusion like I said in my previous comment, I also don't believe the closet-case bisexual will stick around with them when the health problems start to appear and worsen with time.

The only way to truly fix this is for men like us (I'm including the HSTS TIMs) is to demand better from the men who claim to be into us but on the TIM's part, they also need to live in reality as well to help invoke the change. Stop insinuating that you're anything but a man and don't play into the delusions of these closet-cases. Make them face their sexuality for what it really is by rejecting their pushes for sex, stop allowing these men to see us as sex objects and instead, real people with feelings who desire love and romance like everyone else.

So I hope you understand now why I take this issue so seriously and why I don't entertain bullshit.

If she admits now that transitioning was a mistake, then what's left for her? She would have spent multiple years of her life sustaining a lie, and what for? Being cheated on by her wife, fetishized by creepers and multiple crippling health problems?!

This is true and unfortunately for her, I see Buck Angel taking this to her grave. She's far too prideful and narcissistic to admit that she was wrong even if there's a part of her deep down that feels she did fuck up.

And unfortunately, this is going to be the exact destiny reserved for many of these FtMs, if not worse!

Which is all the more reason to speak up on this stuff and try to deter people but especially Gay and Lesbian youths from going down the same path of self destruction.

[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Back when I was lost in the sauce of the gender woo woo? I entertained the idea, but I'm glad there was no follow through because reality would have hit me like a ton of bricks in the bedroom when the entire thing reminded me of my corrective rape. Even the push afterwards from my mother about the possibility of butch women or transmen. It absolutely would not be a relationship in which I was enthusiastically consenting.

The biggest thing about "passing" is that everything is staged. Like a fat chick using angled shots and contour, it's harder not to notice in the real world where the sun is shining. Drag queens used to crack jokes about "transgender friendly lighting" all the time for a reason.

I agree that GAMPs are most likely a type of bisexual, mostly since the same guys who seem to be into TS/TV are also into twinks.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Back when I was lost in the sauce of the gender woo woo? I entertained the idea, but I'm glad there was no follow through because reality would have hit me like a ton of bricks in the bedroom when the entire thing reminded me of my corrective rape. Even the push afterwards from my mother about the possibility of butch women or transmen. It absolutely would not be a relationship in which I was enthusiastically consenting.

Right. I mean I'll be honest. Back when I too was lost in the gender woo sauce before I peak transed. I thought about whether if I could have sex with and/or date a trans-identified woman so I tried looking at adult content of "FTM" to see if it did anything for me and there was this one woman who I thought was attractive on the surface. Again, testosterone is a hell of a drug and it can make some women "pass" in certain scenarios and with this woman, I will admit that if I saw her on the street, I wouldn't have thought she was a woman. Of course I didn't hear how this woman sounds when she speaks normally so there's that but appearance-wise, I thought she was attractive until she showed her vagina. I try to sit through it to really test myself and she was zooming into it a lot. Overall I was turned off, the thought of going anywhere near it just made my stomach churn.

So I try another video to see what these "phalluses" look like. Again find a "FTM" who had that done to them and it didn't make any difference. It looked... Unsettling and the fact that at the end of the day it's not real penis put the finally put an end to that chapter, I learned that I couldn't look past it thereby reaffirming that I was a gay man and not a bisexual who can be attracted to hyper masculinized women.

It absolutely would not be a relationship in which I was enthusiastically consenting.

Right there with you. It just wouldn't be fulfilling in the long run, you'd always crave wanting to be with a man because of course we would, we're gay lol.

The biggest thing about "passing" is that everything is staged. Like a fat chick using angled shots and contour, it's harder not to notice in the real world where the sun is shining. Drag queens used to crack jokes about "transgender friendly lighting" all the time for a reason.

Very true. There's also that old Drag Queen saying of "We don't do daytime drag" lol.

I agree that GAMPs are most likely a type of bisexual, mostly since the same guys who seem to be into TS/TV are also into twinks.

Yep. This is what I look like from time to time, I have no cosmetic work done to myself and I would still get these "GAMP" bisexual men hitting me up and wanting to meet me even when I tell them I'm ot a trans-identified man. Heck, I still would get these guys when I look like this So nah, call if "GAMP" but it's still bisexuality at the end of the day, just a "type" of bisexuality where the guy prefers femininity regardless of sex.

[–]spanishprofanity 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I just don't see transmen as men so nope.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

And that's valid and the objective truth, they aren't no matter how much body hair they grow and what fancy trendy haircut they get.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry, I'm not a gay man so apologies if you are trying to limit the thread to gay men only. (edit: If you want me to delete this I will.)

Worth keeping in mind-- AGB is currently the main target of Reddit's thought police (AgainstHateSubreddits). You might just be wasting your time arguing with women who think they're men, rather than actual gay men.

The point I was trying to get across is that "Gamps" are not straight and are more than likely bisexual or the very rare case of a gay man

Most GAMPs are into women and feminine men, so yeah, most GAMPs are bisexual. There are probably some gay men who are only into feminine men and I'm not sure if they'd be called GAMP according to the academics; but honestly, I think the idea of GAMP being a fetish is kind of bullshit in the first place. I used to be more conflicted about this but honestly I've come to believe that the GAMP label perpetuates a misunderstanding about this very specific subset of bi men: saying that they have a fetish and are somehow not bisexual. If they're attracted to both sexes... they're bi.

If you're interested, there was a related post recently.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you want me to delete this I will

OH no you're fine. I'm open to all feedback!

AGB is currently the main target of Reddit's thought police (AgainstHateSubreddits). You might just be wasting your time arguing with women who think they're men, rather than actual gay men.

Oh I didn't know that. With that in mind, I really hope that most of the gay men there actually don't believe this bullshit but are just keeping quiet so they don't get harassed by the troon brigade.

Most GAMPs are into women and feminine men, so yeah, most GAMPs are bisexual. There are probably some gay men who are only into feminine men and I'm not sure if they'd be called GAMP according to the academics;

Exactly. It's bisexuality at the end of the day but moreso conditional where in this type of bisexual's case, they're attracted to femininity regardless of the sex of the person.

I think the idea of GAMP being a fetish is kind of bullshit in the first place. I used to be more conflicted about this but honestly I've come to believe that the GAMP label perpetuates a misunderstanding about this very specific subset of bi men: saying that they have a fetish and are somehow not bisexual. If they're attracted to both sexes... they're bi.

I' feel thye same way. I don't believe for a minute that it's just "simply a fetish". If these men can maintrain an attraction to feminine men who are GNC, it's still an active homosexual attraction whether they like it or not. The real issue here is the internalized homophobia that bisexua men are especially more prone to having. They go their lives thinking they are straight because they experience next to no sam e sex attraction with other men because most men in society are gender conforming, even the effeminate gay men who may act flamboyant and/or effeminate but still present in a fairly masculine-ish way. But then they come across a guy who actually likes to present in a feminine fashion and BAM their bisexual awakening is triggered because they're exposed to a rare kind of man who actually doesn't coform to masculinity in his personal appearance and they find it attractive but they have internalized homophobia because they don't want to be seen as or thought of as gay so they delude themselves into thinking these kinda men aren't "real men".

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I would date and/or fuck a feminine cisgendered gay man before dating and/or fucking a TIF. The general hierarchy for me is the following:

masculine man > feminine man > woman > TIF > TIM

Even "woman" is highly unlikely for me but I'm maybe a Kinsey 5.5 so you never know. Dating a TIF would be less likely by an order of magnitude because of all the personality disorder, and for the same reason TIM is even several orders of magnitude less likely than that.

I've one or two dated feminine men in the past, it would really depend on the entire package.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What state of transition are the TIM and TIF in in your ranking? Does the trans woman have a neovagina and breast implants? Does the trans man have a phalloplasty and double mastectomy? Bare minimum merely identifies as the opposite sex? Or somewhere in between?

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

TIMs and TIFs are going to rank incredibly low no matter what. But from what I now understand about GRS, phalloplasty and neovaginas represent automatic disqualification. You're in the realm of medical horror with that situation.

This is all hypothetical for me, given that I'm married. Even if I were not, I'm sufficiently attractive (even at middle age) to pull from my preferred pool.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Right but see, you're a bisexual. A bisexual who seems to prefer men but still bisexual nonetheless.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I guess. I'm hypothetically bisexual, but functionally (for all intents and purposes) I'm a gay male. I've only ever been with men and 99.9% of sexual fantasies involve men only.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If that's bisexuality, there's no such thing as gay.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fair enough