Both: Is gender dysphoria a mental illness? & Is being trans a mental illness? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am saying that these things are not choices. Sexual orientation and handedness seem to be innate. I think gender identity is similar in that people are not choosing it, they are identifying the thing they already have but that no one else can see.

Both: Is gender dysphoria a mental illness? & Is being trans a mental illness? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

DSM-IV certainly defined Gender Identity Disorder (and Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified for us nonbinary types) as mental disorders, and I was fine with that. DSM-5 unifies many of the concepts into Gender Dysphoria. There are still people who describe homosexuality as a mental illness; it was removed in DSM-II.

No one should be forcing their beliefs on anyone. I oppose ideology and encourage everyone to examine their beliefs.

The concept of gender identity seems to simplify explanations of various types of gender incongruence, as distinct from biological sex which we can measure. That said, everyone must remember that it is only a model, and just because it seems to explain things does not mean that it is a "real" thing. I have a physics background, and think of luminiferous aether as an example of a discarded model, and zero-point energy and dark matter where there is still no consensus.

My theory is that there is something like gender identity, analogous to sexual orientation, and both have strong roots in sexual dimorphism and evolutionary biology: the benefit of having these and them being strong is more important than their "accurate" alignment with reproductive goals in every case. A homosexuality and transgender identity could be described as spandrels.

Both: Is gender dysphoria a mental illness? & Is being trans a mental illness? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s just literally physically having "transitioned"

Not all trans people transition.

I think the ones who believe TWAW or believe in sex spectrums and gender identity are more deeply mentally ill.

I am a surgically transitioned nonbinary person. I have an opinion from an old-school senior consultant psychiatrist that I have no signs of any mental disorder. You are welcome to believe what you like, but I offer myself as a data point in refutation of your views. It is worth noting that autism spectrum disorders are highly overrepresented in the trans community, perhaps at the level of 25%(?) of the trans population.

I think sex is binary* and immutable. *Except for intersex people, who comprise around 0.018% of the population, according to Leonard Sax.

Cult-like leftist trans activists can be fanatical ideologues, but I would hesitate to call them mentally ill. Would we call the deeply religious or political ideologues mentally ill? QAnon? Anyone else who disagrees with me? No doubt there is some correlation with mental disorders or abuse history but correlation does not prove causation.

Both: Is gender dysphoria a mental illness? & Is being trans a mental illness? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, the distress experienced by someone with a mismatch between gender identity and biological sex. Transgender identity is part of normal human variation, analogous to homosexual orientation or lefthandedness.

How can you tell if someone is expressing their actual gender identity? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, they are either true or false. Furthermore, they could be false but the reporter could believe them to be true. There are those who do not understand their gender identity and genuinely believe themselves to be trans when they are not. There are also those who repress their trans identity and believe themselves to cis. Not only do we not know whether someone is being honest, we do not know how much thought they have put into the matter. People are terrible at understanding themselves. Psychotherapy can help, but work is hard and people are frightened and/or lazy.

How can you tell if someone is expressing their actual gender identity? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Because gender identity is entirely subjective, it is not possible to determine whether reports of gender identity are true or false.

Are you religious? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. Not applicable.
  2. I was raised Anglican, but in a family that respected reason and science. At around age ten, I tested the existence of a god by praying for a minor thing, with the full understanding that failure to deliver would result in my atheism.
  3. While I support freedom of religion, opinion, and expression, I respect only beliefs grounded in reason and science. My views on sex are based in my understanding of biology as a science. My views on gender are informed by the subjective opinions of many but must be self-consistent and evidence-based (even when that evidence is untestable subjective experiences).
  4. The main parallel for me is the ideological rigidity at the extremes of the debate.

GC: Which of the most popular social media websites is the most tolerant of GC views? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The banwave has instilled fear in mods, who now feel compelled to remove even the most innocuous comments or risk their sub being banned. Chilling effects far beyond the original bans.

QT: Even by your own beliefs, sexuality can't be based on "gender identity" by BiologyIsReal in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I think that, for many if not most people, sexual attraction is based on sex not gender. Those for whom sexual orientation is based on gender have no place attacking those for whom it is based on sex, or vice versa.

All: Why do a lot of trans people insist that being non binary or trans has nothing to to with stereotyoes, and then suddenly it really is about stereotypes? by questioningtw in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Most of these stereotypes are about gender expression, not gender identity. I am male and pretty much masculine gender conforming. I am nonbinary because my gender self-image does not match my sex, causing gender dysphoria, which I treated with surgical transition. I do not see how I am breaking a stereotype.

My theory is that social gender roles emerge from biological sex differences, and there is something innate that causes most humans to latch on to one binary gender identity in early childhood. Those that do not latch on to the gender identity associated with their sex are trans.

Maya Forstater: ‘I am fighting for the right to say men can never be women’ by BiologyIsReal in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If I, as a hard atheist, can work with a young-earth creationist manager, who thinks that I am going to hell because I am not saved, to successfully deliver multimillion dollar projects, there is absolutely no reason why trans people such as myself cannot work with gender critical feminists. Even though I disagree with some of Maya Forstater's opinions, I support her right to hold and express her views. The more I read of her writing, the more I like her. Workplace safetyism is illiberal and corrosive. I really hope the unjust judgement against Maya is overturned.

QT: Where are the “trans men” athletes winning against men? by BiologyIsReal in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sport is a primarily a social activity. Handicapping based on past performance seems like a practical way that trans women can be included in competitive women's sport. If trans women are competing against cis women with the same level of ability, how is that unfair?

QT: Where are the “trans men” athletes winning against men? by BiologyIsReal in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Handicapping based on age/height/weight/past-performance is one way to include trans people in competitive sport. Masters games already has classes. Current testosterone levels are only one part of a much broader picture.

GC & QT: Where should we draw the line between human rights and entitlement? by Penultimate_Penance in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Note that freedom from discrimination in public services includes access to gender segregated facilities such as toilets. New Zealand shelters are now gender-integrated and working well. Sports and prisons require more complex rules. Biological sex is binary and immutable.

I support the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights. All human beings have all human rights all of the time. No one can claim superior human rights nor use their rights to remove rights from others.

QT/trans: What makes you want to be involved in the debate or advocating for trans rights? What would need to be achieved to make you stop? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Freedom of expression is my primary concern. I want trans rights activists to stop trying to silence those with dissenting views. Trans rights are human rights, but no one can use the human rights of one group as an excuse to destroy the human rights of others. I especially want trans rights activists to stop denying existence of biological sex because denying reality makes trans people look like loons. We are also not perpetual victims.

QT: Why is bigoted/violence to misgender someone, but mandatory to missex them? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is one of my major objections to the trans activist narrative. Trans people cannot change sex (by which I mean biological sex), only some sex characteristics. Claiming otherwise does not make sense. We do not have the technology. Not only does this claim make us look like loons, it makes it impossible to explain, for example, nonbinary lesbians, and suggests that trans people who do not physically transition are not trans because they do not change sex. I think the problem arises because many people use the term "sex" to mean social sex, that is, gender.

  • Biological sex: binary* and immutable (but some sex characteristics can be changed with surgery and/or hormones).

  • Gender identity: entirely subjective.

* Except for a tiny number of people with disorders of sexual development.

GC: If race and ethnicity are social constructs and have no biological basis because humans share most if not all of their genes with each other, how can biological sex be real and not be a social construct? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Australian moral philosopher Peter Singer is famous for his views on the arbitrary nature of divisions between humans and animals, amongst other things.

Both: Early childhood socialization and what causes people to become trans by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am certain that the root cause of my nonbinary gender identity was my cruel and highly gendered early childhood ("toxic masculinity" if you must), which caused me to reject my masculinity. Even being "sensitive" was enough to incur the wrath of powerful men.

My theory is that children are hard-wired to latch on to some sort of gender identity at an early age and this process can be disrupted from its typical outcome by environmental influences.

QT/Transmed: Does 'gender dysphoria' exist anymore? The ICD-11 will re-categorise it as a "sexual condition", re-naming it 'gender incongruence', effectively de-pathologising it. In the wake of this update, will it still be a reliable metric for transgender classification? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

DSM-IV-TR Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified was a nice home for nonbinary people. I know one senior psychiatrist who prefers the DSM-IV-TR gender categories. That said, DSM-5 Gender Dysphoria made sense to me as a unifying concept. There is still a long way to go to describe the observed range of clinical presentations, and increasingly blurry categories seem to undermine the value of the ontology.

QT: If women can be male, wtf is a woman then? What term, if any, should we use to describe the female sex? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is 99.5% correct. Trans people are that tail that should not wag the dog.

QT: If women can be male, wtf is a woman then? What term, if any, should we use to describe the female sex? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

No, sex characteristics are different to gender identity. Likewise, most castrated males are men. A small number are trans, including some trans women, some nonbinary people, and eunuchs.

QT: If women can be male, wtf is a woman then? What term, if any, should we use to describe the female sex? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Female" and "Male" seem to be quite accurate terminology when used to describe sex. The problem is the creeping use of these terms to refer to gender.

QT: Why are gendered behavioural patterns typically sex-congruent (or rather concordant with their respective gendered socialisation) in trans people? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Appetite for risk seems to be the key factor, and this is sexually dimorphic on average. Everything from average speed of Uber drivers to psychological tests of reactions to smears on towelling. While there is great individual variation, females seem to favour survival (low-risk strategy) while males favour status and are willing to take life-threatening risks to get it. Select for the top extreme in any field and it is full of successful risk-taking males. The unsuccessful risk-taking males are dead or in prison, for the same reason. Pure evolutionary biology: females have to survive to have offspring, whereas males do not.

QT: What do you think about the AGP model and posts that are documented in itsafetish? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And if anyone has not seen it, I recommend Contrapoints' YouTube video on AGP. A must-watch in my view.

QT: What do you think about the AGP model and posts that are documented in itsafetish? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think AGP is fundamentally flawed because it confuses cause and effect: the feelings of trans people seem to be explained better as gender euphoria than a paraphilia because trans identity remains in the absence of arousal.

QT: Why are gendered behavioural patterns typically sex-congruent (or rather concordant with their respective gendered socialisation) in trans people? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Evolution is the force that has shaped our species. Given that humans are sexually dimorphic in both physiology and behaviour, it would be surprising if the influence of evolutionary biology on human behaviour was determined by gender rather than sex.

Trans people/QT: What is the best or most important thing gender critical people can do to help you? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And I literally said I don’t care what you call your surgeries I just don’t want my taxes to pay for it.

The "I do not have condition X so I do not want to pay for it" argument leads to no one having anything paid for by taxpayers and the complete absence of public healthcare. This is a bad idea. Exhibit A: the United States, an allegedly advanced country with much poorer health outcomes than less advanced countries.

I am so pleased to live in New Zealand, a country in which a decent level of fully taxpayer funded healthcare is provided to all residents.

Trans people/QT: What is the best or most important thing gender critical people can do to help you? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was all for her right to free speech until she did it in her workplace.

Trans people/QT: What is the best or most important thing gender critical people can do to help you? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Some GC activists have lobbied against taxpayer funding for gender services.

Trans people/QT: What is the best or most important thing gender critical people can do to help you? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Support taxpayer-funded gender therapy and medical services. Even if you do not think gender is a thing separate to sex, there are trans people suffering dysphoria whose lives will be improved with access to better gender care, even if it is only gender therapy. Even if you fear that young people mistakenly think they are trans, access to gender therapy that might broaden their viewpoint is a better alternative than resorting to DIY hormones. Holistic healthcare, taxpayer funded so the young and poor can access it. This does not mean affirmation-only services, nor does it invalidate your concerns about sex-based rights.

GC (but anyone can comment): Why are women more supportive of trans rights than men? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I do not think anyone should be able to force someone else to conform to their language or worldview.

GC: What is the best or most important thing trans people or transsexuals can do to help you? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I saw snippets of Blaire's apology, so she seems to have remorse.

Sen. Mazie Hirono scolds Amy Coney Barrett for using the term ‘sexual preference’, declining to mention its exclusive use by leftist TRAs to attack people for their orientation by jjdub7 in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know how bad things have gotten when lesbians need the protection of religious fanatics.

Sen. Mazie Hirono scolds Amy Coney Barrett for using the term ‘sexual preference’, declining to mention its exclusive use by leftist TRAs to attack people for their orientation by jjdub7 in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ACB held a position literally titled "handmaid". I had never before heard anyone use this term outside GC circles or in reference to "The Handmaid's Tale". "Amy Coney Barrett served as a ‘handmaid’ in Christian group People of Praise".

GC: What is the best or most important thing trans people or transsexuals can do to help you? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Blaire White is also transmed and has had plenty of nasty things to say about nonbinary people. Despite that, I am often entertained by her and agree with some of her positions.

GC (but anyone can comment): Why are women more supportive of trans rights than men? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I disagree. Cis men lack the experience of living in a female body, but I know many kind and empathic cis men.

GC (but anyone can comment): Why are women more supportive of trans rights than men? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Much of human society is built on the "niceness" of women and their "willingness" to work for little or no pay.

GC (but anyone can comment): Why are women more supportive of trans rights than men? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said. Every human being should read your post. I wish I could vote for it 1000 times.

GC (but anyone can comment): Why are women more supportive of trans rights than men? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am in almost total agreement with you, but I also recognise that language is descriptive and not prescriptive, and some trans women use the term lesbian to describe themselves. Some people are attracted to the feminine sex characteristics that some trans women have, and some of those people are women. This is not my experience, and for many including myself, sexual attraction is a primitive instinct tied closely to immutable biological sex. But this is not everyone's experience. It seems strange to call a trans woman attracted to women straight. I am cool with trans women describing themselves as lesbians, but trans women have precisely zero right to demand that cis lesbians find them attractive. Trancel talk of "genital preferences" is homophobia.

QT: What's the difference between a man who says he is a woman & a man who doesn't say he is a woman? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No objective difference. Gender identity is entirely subjective.

QT: What's the difference between a man who says he is a woman & a man who doesn't say he is a woman? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender identity. And being out as trans.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would say that the entire difference is gender identity: how someone perceives themself. Likewise gender identity is the only difference between a trans woman and a cis man. The reverse problem also arises with effeminate men who can be mistaken for women.

Only in the way they want everyone else to perceive them?

And here you have the core of the problem: not gender identity, but one's wish to change the way in which one is treated in our gendered society, and in which gendered spaces one is accepted. This can apply to all people, both cis and trans. Gender expression is a performance indicating which gendered space into which one would like to be accepted. How different would our lives be if we had no gender segregation and did not care so much what others thought of us?

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is no technology to give trans women female reproductive organs; surgeons can only craft a neovagina. Vaginoplasty is dangerous, painful, and expensive. Most trans women get enough bodily changes to get by with oestrogen alone. I do not think this makes them nonbinary.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

All the nonbinary people I know want or have had surgery/hormones. All those years of quiet desperation. Trenders are a small and noisy but unrepresentative subset. Many trans people go through a coming out phase then just get on with life.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would rather have been born female, but the realisation that I would have then wanted to remove my female reproductive tract was part of my understanding that I was nonbinary and not a trans woman. So yes, I imagine that I would have also had dysphoria if I had been born female. Whether I would have felt differently in reality, who knows? shrug

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am nonbinary and my white male privilege is just fine. I am sick of all the grievance farming. I am the one who knocks.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with almost everything you wrote.

non-binary means someone who isn't male or female

I use nonbinary to refer to gender identity, and female and male to refer to immutable binary biological sex, so there are female nonbinary people and male nonbinary people. Likewise, this explains nonbinary lesbians and he/him lesbians, for whom lesbian means homosexual female.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Or else, what is this "non-binary dysphoria" and what is it rooted in.

Same as binary dysphoria, but without binary gender identity. Same train, different destination.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am gender conforming and nonbinary. My dysphoria was with my physical body; I am now a eunuch. Gender identity is entirely subjective and cannot be validated. I do not seek attention. I have never used a neopronoun; anyone requesting one gets "they/them".

I think the problem with trans visibility is one of confirmation bias: you see the trans people who are actively seeking attention, especially narcissists. Nonbinary people can be quite good at drawing attention to themselves if they avoid conforming to gender roles, but most have better things to do.

Nonbinary people are, first and foremost, people. We have complicated personal histories that are much more than feeling slightly uncomfortable with gender roles. Narcissists are poison and should be avoided whether they are trans or cis. No doubt there are some nonbinary people who are also narcissists, but their narcissism is the problem, not their gender identity.

QT: If someone agreed to compromise with you on everything EXCEPT calling trans women "women" and trans men "men" and share intimate spaces with them, would you be satisfied with this? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transitioned has to mean some form of gender expression, that is, enough visible cues that someone is trying to live as a woman. I do not see any way that this can be legally enforced.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Disappointing but not surprising. And the reaction to her latest novel would be hilarious if it was not so pathetic.

QT: If someone agreed to compromise with you on everything EXCEPT calling trans women "women" and trans men "men" and share intimate spaces with them, would you be satisfied with this? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The majority of women seem to be fine with granting shelter to trans women, and the ones I have asked have said they are more than happy to boot bad actors out of women's spaces on a case-by-case basis. There are so few trans people that cis predators are still the real problem; cis predators have no need to pretend to be trans to perpetrate their violence. No need to have this argument: it has already been resolved.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Or are they the same piece?

QT: If someone agreed to compromise with you on everything EXCEPT calling trans women "women" and trans men "men" and share intimate spaces with them, would you be satisfied with this? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Trans women who present femme need access to women's bathrooms for the same reason as cis women: shelter from predatory male behaviour that targets women. Trans women get similar attention to cis women, and also risk being bashed by transphobes. They are seeking asylum fro persecution. Transitioned trans women tend to present a lot more femme than effeminate men. So, I guess I am saying that bathroom access should be based on gender expression; not how successful someone is a passing, but evidence of effort. It seems like the most workable compromise.

I support self ID for identity documents only (or even better, ridding identity documents of gender markers). Identity documents are not used for bathroom access.

I wonder which bathroom GNC cis men like makeup artist John Maclean use. He presents very femme.

ALL: Why do non-binary people need to identify as a different gender to present themselves the way they do and like the things they like? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GISNOS is deprecated since DSM-5 (2013). Surgery was the most important thing to me and a huge relief. I do not see how I can differentiate myself socially because there are only two gender roles and none for the agender. I am pretty much a hermit so I do not see the point.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry, I am not sure.

My take on her piece is that, while I disagree with some of her points and think some are transphobic, I do not think she is hateful, and I support her right to freedom of expression. While she seems to have compassion for trans women, I do not consider someone who wants to keep trans women out of women's spaces to be trans positive.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks! My views are a hybrid of evolutionary biology and constructivism: each faction has part of the elephant, but could learn more by combining their perspectives. Human beings are too complicated for simplistic reductionism.

My question: what is your opinion on JK Rowling's opinion piece on sex an gender issues?

ALL: Why do non-binary people need to identify as a different gender to present themselves the way they do and like the things they like? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For over 20 years, I experienced discomfort with my maleness and my masculinity. Over time, I realised that I was experiencing Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (DSM-IV-TR), Gender Dysphoria (DSM-5), or in other words, a nonbinary gender identity. It took me a long time to realise that what I was experiencing was very similar to other trans people, despite my conformance to my natal gender. I feel much better since my transition.

Trans people can be GNC, but, like many on this sub, I spread the word that people do not have to be trans to be GNC. Many binary trans people are stereotypically gender conforming in an effort to pass; I hope for a world in which they can be GNC without fear.

ALL: Why do non-binary people need to identify as a different gender to present themselves the way they do and like the things they like? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I think gender roles emerged from sex differences. Now people perform them to advertise their reproductive fitness. Evolutionary biology. I think eradicating gender roles is an uphill battle. Might as well complain about gravity. Instead, embrace acceptance of gender nonconformity so that individuals can lead their lives unconstrained by gender roles.

ALL: Why do non-binary people need to identify as a different gender to present themselves the way they do and like the things they like? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Mental illness

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder.

ALL: Why do non-binary people need to identify as a different gender to present themselves the way they do and like the things they like? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Not all nonbinary people are GNC. I am a eunuch. I present pretty much entirely masc. I do not care about pronouns.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I am an old-school liberal, pretty much a social libertarian and economic centrist. I like free speech, democracy, and the middle ground. I am here to help find workable compromises. I trained as a scientist, and am a sceptic, free thinker, atheist, and believe that there is an objective reality that we all share.

I realised over 20 years ago that I was what we now call nonbinary. Last year, I started engaging with the trans community on social media. What a horrible experience. The so-called "trans community" turned out to be a nest of authoritarian extremists who deny biological reality and suppress any dissent. I found out about identitarianism, wokeness, grievance culture, and their pervasive influence on the authoritarian left. I started hanging out on r/rightwinglgbt and r/uncensoredlgbt. I had enough karma on r/gc to edit the wiki. I was shocked when the banwave hit all my favourite subs and cleared out my inbox, so I came here.

QT: If someone agreed to compromise with you on everything EXCEPT calling trans women "women" and trans men "men" and share intimate spaces with them, would you be satisfied with this? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

The last point, access to facilities, is the one to which I would object. Denying transitioned trans women access to women's facilities exposes them to public shaming and risk of violence from haters. There few gender neutral facilities. And how would you enforce these rules?

The one exception, in my view, would be prisons: trans women with a history of violence or intimidation should be segregated in their own wing because they pose a substantial risk to the safety of female prisoners. However, nonviolent offenders, such as those who stole evidence of US military criminality, refused to testify in court, and were imprisoned for contempt, are likely low risk and can be accommodated amongst females. Case-by-case risk assessment by custodial officials.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Noted. I have previously assumed that "cis" was just a broad description but I guess it can be taken as an identity label and should be treated with more respect. I am already in trouble for referring to people by their biological sex. :-(

My stance is that I am broadly trans positive, but believe in immutable binary sex, and that trans people change only sex characteristics. While I support self ID for documents (or just omit gender markers), I think inclusion of trans women in women's sport should be evidence-based to ensure that it is safe and fair.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was referring to "cis" as the concept and neglected the connotation of adherence to gender theory. Sorry about that!

As far as I know, Leigh's views are currently close to your views: she seems to reject most ideas of gender as they might apply to her. She had an older video discussing cis women who have top surgery, so seems comfortable with the term, but I think you are right that she has never the term "cis" in reference to herself.

In my ontology, it makes perfect sense to describe a female who identifies as a woman as cis, even one such as Leigh who is extremely GNC including surgery and testosterone effects. My definition of trans is based solely on a mismatch between sex and gender identity, otherwise it would include many GNC people who are comfortable with their bodies and being perceived as their natal sex, such as crossdressers. "Gender diverse" includes all these people.

However, you raise an important point. There must be a third option between trans and cis: missing data, such as unknown, undecided, or withheld. I do not see how I can describe someone as cis or trans if they do not have a sense of their own gender. I have previously thought of these people as agender, but I am now not so sure.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, I see. You are objecting not to the concept, just to the label "cis". I see your point.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I checked some of her earlier detrans videos and she then did not identify with any gender.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Leigh describes herself as a "woman woman" and a "biological woman" and "female". How is this not exactly the same as cis? It would be poor form if I called her nonbinary some such, but cis woman is a synonym for these terms, is it not? Cis is defined as not trans. Or am I missing something?

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, sexual attraction based on the gender identity of others makes no sense to me. My experience is that my sexual attraction is based on the sex not the gender identity of the object of my desire. If you started identifying as a man tomorrow, you would still be female and retain your female sex characteristics, and your boyfriend would still be straight (assuming that he is cis, that is, male). I do not know how this changes for those who change sex characteristics; a cis man who loves a fully transitioned trans women also seems kinda straight to me, but what if the trans woman was pre-everything and still presenting masculine? I think we are attracted mainly to sex characteristics. Gender identity does not come into it.

Edit #1:

Identity may seem flimsy but it is the core of who we are as people. How would you interact with those around you if you saw yourself as a predator who used those around you as disposable resources? How would you interact with those around you if you saw yourself as a part of single super-organism in which all humans loved each other as ourselves because we are all part of an unbroken humanity? Identity gives us the "why" for many of our actions.

Edit #2 (I am enjoying this tangent):

And this is why I am adamantly opposed to identitarianism and wokeness: indoctrinating people that they have an identity that is being permanently oppressed fills the world with negativity and divides society. This is probably my main complaint with radical feminism, despite my support for second-wave feminist principles.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

She is female and identifies as a woman, therefore is cis by definition. She might have used the term "cis" in one of her earlier detrans videos but I am not sure.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I doubt there are any dysphoric, GNC lesbians who identify as "cis".

Check out Leoaica Motanelul on YouTube. Leigh is female, transitioned (on T), had top surgery to reach her goal of a boyish appearance, detransitioned (off T), now identifies as a woman, and is married to a woman. She describes being happy with her gender nonconforming appearance. I assume she was dysphoric beforehand. And she meets anyone's definition of a lesbian. I think Leigh ticks all of your boxes. Her story is fascinating and made me reassess some of my assumptions about gender. Very clear and thoughtful. Late 20s or 30-is, IIRC; not some teen trender. She was also interviewed by Benjamin A Boyce.

QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In my view, self ID, because gender identity, which is entirely subjective, is the only difference between a trans man and a cis woman. And note that I did not refer to butch because trans people can be GNC and trans men can present femme or masc; these are gender expression and not gender identity. Dysphoria/euphoria may not present or may be felt differently by different people; it is typically a symptom, but not a cause. Transition occurs to improve quality of life, typically to relieve dysphoria, but is not required. So we are left with gender identity, that is, one's innate sense of self in relation to our sexually dimorphic species and gendered society.

My TRA friend: "JK Rowling's speech is on the same spectrum as the murder of Transwomen" by Vari4 in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, muslims are just people, with as wide a range of personalities and opinions as any other faith. The vast majority are born into religion and many follow their religion out of habit and familiarity.

My TRA friend: "JK Rowling's speech is on the same spectrum as the murder of Transwomen" by Vari4 in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Free speech is a human right, and yes, that includes freedom from disproportionate consequences. There are exceptions, including directed speech that causes actual harm, including harassment, bullying, and psychological domestic violence, not to mention incitement to actual violence, but disagreeing is never violence.

My TRA friend: "JK Rowling's speech is on the same spectrum as the murder of Transwomen" by Vari4 in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Affirming the consequent is the formal fallacy of inferring that, because A implies B, B then implies A. For example, it is false to infer that, because dogs have four legs, animals with four legs are all dogs. Tiger will not fetch.

In this case, the fallacy is to infer that, because "X hates trans people" implies "X disagrees with trans ideology", then "X disagrees with trans ideology" implies "X hates trans people". This fallacy is being used to smear and silence people who disagree with trans ideology, including some trans people.

GC: What are the true definitions of male and female that do not exclude people that have removed all of their genitals and/or can't produce sperm or egg? And why doesn't sex change when secondary sexual characteristics change? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Leonard Sax estimates that the true prevalence of intersex is [...] about 0.018%, which would mean 99.982% are not. Many intersex activists are super annoyed with trans activist appropriation of their cause.

GC: What are the true definitions of male and female that do not exclude people that have removed all of their genitals and/or can't produce sperm or egg? And why doesn't sex change when secondary sexual characteristics change? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Note also intersex exceptions, such as CAIS, but the existence of disorders of sexual development does not explain or justify trans people. CAIS are males with XY chromosomes but almost completely female phenotype.

Edit: clarity

GC: What are the true definitions of male and female that do not exclude people that have removed all of their genitals and/or can't produce sperm or egg? And why doesn't sex change when secondary sexual characteristics change? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I agree, but it is also work noting that there is a wide range of individual variation. Hips and gait are some of the first things my lizard hindbrain notices when sexing someone at a distance, but there are, for example, females with masculine pelvises; see "android pelvis" as an obstetric risk factor (about a quarter of females).

GC: What are the true definitions of male and female that do not exclude people that have removed all of their genitals and/or can't produce sperm or egg? And why doesn't sex change when secondary sexual characteristics change? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Genetics is a powerful force that defines much of our humanity. Sex is in our genes. Human sexual dimorphism leaves an indelible mark. While trans people can change some sex characteristics, our sex is immutable.

Just so you know, there's a new sub on Reddit called r/gendercriticalsociety by please_help in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And banned two subs with many active trans participants: rightwingLGBT, and uncensoredLGBT, which was created by someone banned from rightwingLGBT for being too left wing. The real crime was that these were LGBT subs not controlled by the woke cabal.

Just so you know, there's a new sub on Reddit called r/gendercriticalsociety by please_help in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This community has been banned

This subreddit was banned due to a violation of Reddit’s content policy against creating or repurposing a sub to reconstitute or serve the same objective as a previously banned or quarantined subreddit.

Losing respect for content creators who support the trans narrative by Depressed in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My aesthetic (gender expression) is pretty masculine. My self-image in relation to societal gender roles is that I identify with neither. I do not see why my self-image should impose any obligations on others.

Just so you know, there's a new sub on Reddit called r/gendercriticalsociety by please_help in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

AHS full of crab emoji cancer.

Just so you know, there's a new sub on Reddit called r/gendercriticalsociety by please_help in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Already set to private, which is a common prelude to a ban, typically while mods fight in vain to save their sub. We have seen this all before.

Just so you know, there's a new sub on Reddit called r/gendercriticalsociety by please_help in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That sub has been set to private. There is a post on r/AHS calling it a ban evasion sub, #6 on the AHS home page.

Losing respect for content creators who support the trans narrative by Depressed in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nonbinary is a gender identity, which is an entirely subjective self-image in terms of femininity and/or masculinity. Not the same as biology or male or female. I am male but feel disconnection from and discomfort with my masculinity, so I describe my gender identity as masc agender. I am a eunuch.

Newsreader Ordered to Pay $10000 to a TiM for Liking Offensive Facebook Comments by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

While there is no legislated right to free speech, the High Court of Australia has found that there is an implied right to freedom of political communication, primarily from sections 7 and 24 of the Constitution. However, it takes deep pockets to seek a judicial review of an administrative tribunal decision.

Losing respect for content creators who support the trans narrative by Depressed in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Please use The Google. That. I would spell it out but queer theory is not permitted on this sub. While you are at it, please also look up "sealioning". The GC wiki on Reddit taught me so much. 😢

Losing respect for content creators who support the trans narrative by Depressed in GenderCritical

[–]catoboros 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I was already rolling my eyes but I had to close the tab completely when he said "nonbinary people are interesting by default." No. No they are not.

Am nonbinary. Can confirm. Any character whose gender identity is the most interesting thing about them is going to be dull, dull, dull. Same is true in real life.

Nerd rant: Star Trek Discovery jumped the shark and introduces non-binary and trans characters by [deleted] in RightWingLGBT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wasn't Data pretty much agender? Given that Star Trek has transporters, and (to some extent) a post-scarcity economy with replicators, not to mention all the low-effort blue-paint aliens, adding a few trans people is hardly a novelty. Star Trek had the first interracial kiss on US TV, after all, so it has a history of addressing present-day social issues. Moral lecturing is hardly new to Star Trek. I have no problem with trans characters as long as they are well-written. But good luck with that.

While we may like to escape the brain-damage of the culture wars into an imagined distant future, science fiction is a product of today and reflects contemporary social issues. There is no getting away from it. Just give me well-written antiheroes. I do not think I will find them in Star Trek.

Both: Do you think increasing time on the internet has contributed to more people identifying themselves as trans/nb etc.? by DistantGlimmer in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, how would you personally define it? Not giving you a hard time. I'm genuinely curious. We had endless discussions on the old sub about it, but since the definition of "gender identity" changes from person to person, it's hard to debate unless you know exactly where someone is coming from.

No problem. For me, I describe it as a feeling of not being a man, and my personal self-image being disconnected with my idea of other men (which is grounded in our binary-gendered society). This manifested as discomfort with my physical form and the physical manifestations of my biological maleness, that is, physical gender dysphoria. I also feel some discomfort with being seen as a man and assumed to have masculine attributes (social gender dysphoria).

When I think of trans people with body dysphoria, I think of primary sex characteristics like penises and vaginas. So it's different from dysmorphia. Maybe genital dysphoria would be a better term. Do you think people need genital dysphoria to be trans?

I think the term gender dysphoria is used to describe these feelings, physical gender dysphoria, to be specific, but genital dysphoria is also used to focus on only genitals (to the exclusion of things like height and body shape). There are plenty of trans people whose gender dysphoria is mostly or entirely social, so genital dysphoria is not the only identifying criterion.

Maybe I should revise. I think it's harmful in that it leads people to believe biological sex can be changed or that things unrelated to the body are indications of needing to change one's sex characteristics.

I think it is not the concept of gender identity but the lack of mental health services that leads to harm, especially for adolescents. While there is good evidence the transition benefits those with prepubescent or adult onset of gender dysphoria, up to 80% of those with adolescent onset later desist. I would reframe your point to say that the promotion of transgender identity as a cure-all is harmful, especially to vulnerable adolescents seeking identity and belonging, especially rushing to medical or surgical transition. I would like to see more promotion of gender nonconformity as separate to transgender identity. Girls should not be told that they should go on testosterone just because they like to weld.

Both: Do you think increasing time on the internet has contributed to more people identifying themselves as trans/nb etc.? by DistantGlimmer in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How do you define "a gender identity that does not match their sex?"

That is a very good question. I do not think it can be answered objectively. It can only be inferred from reports of the symptoms of gender dysphoria.

Does that include body dysphoria?

Body dysmorphia is normally defined as excluding sex characteristics.

This is one of the reasons I think gender identity is harmful as well as confusing.

I disagree with this part (see below)

There's no need for people to consider themselves not of their biological sex just because they hate femininity or masculinity. Hating femininity doesn't mean I'm not female. Hating masculinity doesn't mean you're not male.

I am in complete agreement with you. Gender identity is a separate concept to sex. Trans people can change their sex characteristics but do not change their sex. I disagree that gender identity is harmful; mismatched gender identity is just a description of an experience that seems to be common to trans people. I think it is harmful to claim that trans people literally change sex.

GC: Do you believe women who voluntarily prostitute themselves should go to jail or be charged? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

None of this explains why we shouldn’t criminalise johns and pimps.

Yes it does. Criminalising johns or brothel operators means that brothels go underground and become fertile ground for all manner of criminality. This is what we had before decriminalisation. How do you propose that legal brothels might work if every john faced criminal prosecution? Even street prostitution becomes more secretive because johns want to avoid prosecution. Under decriminalisation, street prostitution moved well-lit commercial areas subject to policing to prevent robbery and murder. People are much more likely to call the cops if it does not result in the loss of their business or their prosecution. Also, where do you draw the line? Sugar daddies? Tinder dates offering nice dinners?

GC: If biological sex is just about roles in reproduction, does that mean someone doesn't have a biological sex and isn't a man or a woman if they don't reproduce? And that in the times they do things that don't lead to reproduction, they have no biological sex? by Nohope in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have never before seen such furious agreement on this sub! All humans, except for a tiny number of intersex people, have one of two immutable binary sexes. Sex does not change with fertility, sexual orientation, or gender identity.

For the record, I am nonbinary, a eunuch and therefore sterile, but still male.

GC: If biological sex is just about roles in reproduction, does that mean someone doesn't have a biological sex and isn't a man or a woman if they don't reproduce? And that in the times they do things that don't lead to reproduction, they have no biological sex? by Nohope in GCdebatesQT

[–]catoboros 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, it is an attempt to muddy the waters, to erase our ability to even discuss sex, and prevent any discussion that might undermine their preprepared conclusions that "trans women are women" and that lesbians with "genital preferences" are horrible bigots. Newspeak, anyone?