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[–]Penultimate_Penance 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because blatantly basing their gender identity on stereotypes makes them look bad, but a lot of trans ideologues can't help themselves, because stereotypes/bio essentialism are necessary for trans ideology to make even an inkling of sense. How can a man claim to have woman essence if he doesn't believe that there are certain traits and behaviors inherent to women, that allows men somehow magically to also be women, because he shares these same personality traits that all women allegedly have? What does it mean to be 'treated' like a woman if not to be treated according to society's external imposed concept of gender? What transwomen consider 'validating' gives the game away.

Gender identity is nonsense without stereotypes. To believe in gender identity you need to believe in magical woman essence, a gender soul, a pink brain or something similar. If there is no 'magical woman essence' gender identity is bullshit. Full stop.

Human beings come in two varieties female & male. There are infinite personalities that any individual person can have, but that does not magically change their sex. Womanhood is not an identity. It's a fact, like having brown hair and brown eyes. Would you really take someone seriously if they said "I identify as a blond person and want to be treated like a blond person"? The sentence "I identify as a woman and want to be treated like a woman" is equally absurd. It gets worse, the person who identifies as a blond person finds the dumb blond jokes validating and claims they have always been stupid and that's why they knew they were blond. It's easy to find examples of transwomen trotting out equally offensive stereotypes of women to justify their belief that they are magically, somehow women too and women are expected to smile and nod along as transwomen encourage and identify with the exact same sexist stereotypes that have been hurting actual women their entire goddamn lives.

Gender identity is the same old sexism wearing a different cloak. Either way women (humans of the female variety) are expected to lay down and be good little doormats. Or else.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 15 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Same reason they drag people with intersex disorders into it. It’s convenient, and you can silence any refutation by simply repeating ‘nope you’re a bigot nope nope nope’ and never have to critically think about a single thing they do or say.

[–]Tarlatan 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Sort of like they're deluded, isn't it?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don’t know. I don’t think stereotypes or gender expectations have nothing to do with it in terms of identity. It’s hard for me to imagine I would have been trans if I’d been straight or gender conforming as a boy. I don’t know if that means those things cause you to be trans, but they were there and it’s part of you. It’s hard to me to imagine my sense of self has nothing to do with that even if I feel like it was there from the beginning. Obviously, a lot of trans people weren’t gender nonconforming or gay as kids so I don’t want to speak for them.

I feel like people who equate transness with stereotypes in presentation currently is super cringy though. That’s kind of a separate though. The idea of girl mode/boy mode really don’t describe the experience I feel like. If that’s literally how you see yourself, I feel like we aren’t the same thing.

[–]adungitit 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

a lot of trans people weren’t gender nonconforming or gay as kids so I don’t want to speak for them.

Considering that "trans" has lost all meaning nowadays and can refer to regular gender conforming person who isn't even taking hormones let alone planning a surgery, that doesn't mean much.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s a great point. Definitely don’t have any idea about those people. I try to use trans to refer to medical transition, but it’s so hard to use the word at all now and have it make sense.

[–]censorshipment 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Many years ago, like in 2008-2009, I saw a very feminine trans man on YouTube who stood out among the butches-to-trans men. The mannerisms were girly like an effeminate gay man's mannerism... and sure enough, the trans man's partner was a man, and they were in a "gay" (i.e. hetero) relationship.

A perfect example of what I mean is Trystan Reese... the trans man who had two babies by a man (husband).

https://allthatsinteresting.com/transgender-man-baby

https://youtu.be/NpyMKn-g0nk

This type shifts femininity from one "gender" to the other and think that's groundbreaking lol

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

has nothing to do with stereotypes, and then suddenly it really is all about stereotypes?

Nothing to add aside from a point of history -- on an advocacy level, it was always about stereotypes. The original trans pride flag (1999) is an emblematic distillation of a long-standing stereotype. Anyone "flying that flag" while asserting that it's not about stereotypes is advancing a lie.

[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do you mean the pink, white and blue flag? Honestly, literally my first thougth the first time I saw it was "How is this not about stereotypes?".

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I always assumed the trans flag was a rip-off of the striped Medline cotton flannel baby blankets that have been standard issue in US maternity wards and birthing centers since the early 1980s. Significantly, the 80s was when the two children fathered by the inventor-designer of the trans flag, Monica Helms, were born in the US. Unless they were born at home, it's a pretty sure bet that Monica's children were swaddled in the unisex Medline blankets with the pink and blue stripes routinely used in all health care settings for newborns back then:

https://www.medline.com/media/catalog/CA08/CA08_01/CA08_01_01/PF02620/PF02620_PRI01.JPG

BTW, trans flag inventor Monica Helms is on the right in this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/nationalmuseumofamericanhistory/14772026379/in/photostream/

More on Monica, who served in the US Navy as a machinist mate on a nuclear submarine in an era when such an option was not open to women:

In the early 1980s, I thought I was a heterosexual crossdresser. I was married, and I liked women. In 1987, a friend of mine and I were with a group of other crossdressers in San Francisco on what was called a “holiday in femme.” We’d go to cities for one weekend once a year. My friend told me why she was starting to transition, and I [recognized] all the same reasons in my head. She put together the puzzle, and I realized I needed to do the same....I started taking hormones in 1992. My kids were young, three and five. In 1997, I started living as a woman. The following year, my marriage ended.

Yet even though Monica believed Monica's self to be a heterosexual cross-dresser for the first 40+ years of life, Moncia has since retconned the story of Monica's childhood to fit the standard trans narrative that Monica really "knew" Monica was the opposite sex from an early age. To Monica's credit, though, Monica does not claim to have been exceptionally precocious as a child the way so many trans people do. Unlike El Page, who now claims to have been able to read and write - and to pen full "love letters" too - when El was a toddler just learning to stand an walk, Monica says such skills were absent even at the ripe old age of five:

I didn’t start to feel like a woman at a certain age—I started to feel like a girl. I was five years old, growing up in Arizona, and I prayed to God to turn me into a girl. You can’t tell me that this is a choice. What does a child in 1956, who’s five years old and can’t read, know about being a different gender? https://www.atlantamagazine.com/news-culture-articles/meet-the-navy-veteran-who-created-the-trans-pride-flag/

My response to Monica's last question is, If instead of focusing on your own cross-dressing and taking cross-sex hormones when your children were bairns you had focused on them, maybe you would have realized that all little kids imagine themselves to be things they are not, that wanting and pretending to be the opposite sex is quite common amongst children, and kids - and adults - pray to god for all sorts of impossible things. Like miracles.

[–]divingrightintowork 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Great history lesson, and take!

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes -- those were my first thoughts, too.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Why are we all saying "gender stereotypes", when there is a name for that: masculinity & femininity? If you limit the conversation to "stereotypes" then the argument will go on forever. Stick to masculinity & femininity. The very least every man who identifies as a woman does is use feminine pronouns, a feminine name, but usually also having a feminine hairstyle & feminine clothes.

Trans activists talk about gender all day long, but they are allergic to the words masculinity & femininity – even though that's what gender (as a construct) refers to. Clearly they think of female & femininity as synonymous, which is how someone who is feminine & male can be "female" & somehow not male.

They like to pretend that male & female & masculinity & femininity don't exist. And that all there is is self-identification. They replace the definition of male & female, man & woman, gender & gender identity with the non-existent definition of self-identification.

[–]adungitit 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Trans activists talk about gender all day long, but they are allergic to the words masculinity & femininity

I thought they liked the notion that performing femininity makes you female, and masculinity male? Isn't that what girlmode and boymode are about? I've literally heard many of them say that, if people mistake you for a man, then you are a man. Then again, I've seen so many contradictory views from them that I don't know what to believe. I feel that a lot of them make these sexist claims because they literally have no idea how to make the ideology make sense otherwise, and due to being all "TRANS RIGHTS FTW" there is a silent agreement that no-one can point out how contradictory and sexist all these ideas on gender are.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, they say "boy-mode", they'd never say 'masculine', even though that's what gender refers to & it's what they actually mean (provided they mean anything at all). They want to replace the definitions of male, boy, man, female, girl, woman, which are all grounded in sex, with a vague non-definition, which always ever turns out to be masculinity & femininity, except they think it's in their DNA, or something.

[–]adungitit 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I still can't believe that feminist movements have gone from trying to erase gender roles and fighting for sex-based rights, to insisting that acknowledging the physical reality of one's biology and having a normal healthy body are "wrong" because this doesn't match preconceived notions on what men and women should be.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Trans activists talk about gender all day long, but they are allergic to the words masculinity & femininity

I see/hear trans activists and gender ideologues talk about "femininity" and "masculinity" all the time. Prior to the internet, trans-identified men took & gave courses & trainings in how to be "feminine" - and today there are tons of self-help tutorials online telling trans people how to be more feminine. https://youtu.be/Nrj5WIknoyU https://youtu.be/sIEpI7qyXV8 https://youtu.be/uhaDVJqLp8M https://youtu.be/ACVM1BUY8tY https://youtu.be/WR-bQMK_Aq4 https://youtu.be/47tLahQe7N8 https://youtu.be/ebH7RhMccZU https://youtu.be/sIEpI7qyXV8 https://youtu.be/pXc5edJhcxg https://youtu.be/Wqgp_vEnWCM https://youtu.be/WVX7anBQHkY

And tons telling females how to appear masculine: https://youtu.be/zUwWpAwj8N4 https://youtu.be/GN-wRxZGvaA https://youtu.be/c4ZUYVbxu6Y https://youtu.be/vtn91Zb1y0U

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, they only use masculinity & femininity to refer to "gender expression", instead of what they are collectively called: gender.

They hate sex, but they like all the terms that refer to it: male, female, boy, girl, man, woman

They worship gender, but hate the terms that refer to it: masculinity, femininity

So they pretend sex doesn't exist & all the terms associated with it are actually gender. It's because a person can be called "a male" or "a boy" or "a man", but not "a femininity". So if you describe them for what they are: feminine male/boy/man – their sex becomes more important than their gender, as the noun part is more legitimate than the adjective part. The noun is the identity. They want to erase their own sex & focus only on their gender, so they attempt to erase sex in general, by exchanging the definitions of sex & gender.

In transgender-land sex refers to masculinity & femininity & gender refers to male/female, boy/girl, man/woman.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Because they either don’t realize or can’t admit to themselves that they based their sense of identity entirely on stereotypes.

It’s that, or they’re too sexist to realize the stereotypes.

Eta- I can see someone saying that dysphoria isn’t solely based on stereotypes, and the desire to transition could very well come more from discomfort/mental illness than identity or identifying with stereotype. But inevitably, there almost always seems to be some level of reliance on stereotypes and or sexism that shows itself.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

They always say dysphoria isn’t about stereotypes but can never elaborate past ‘discomfort with body’.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think that someone who experienced trauma could possibly develop dysphoria that has little or nothing to do with stereotypes, ALL of the people I know/knew who claim to be non binary or are trans had severe childhood trauma (almost always some type of sexual abuse, idk if that’s a coincidence or not, and I know that some people are trans without experiencing that). I do think dysphoria is rooted in mental illness, and I also tend to think a lot of it comes from stereotypes either that they reject (their own sex) or cling to (the opposite), but that mental illness is obviously present. I guess I think any mental illness, including dysphoria, can come about in multiple ways. I’d say nowadays it’s more about stereotypes and narcissism than genuine discomfort or even abuse, but I don’t know that I think that every dysphoric person who deals with their issues by transitioning does so because of stereotypes, I do however think that even if the reasons for transition aren’t related to stereotypes that inevitably they end up reinforcing them and relying on them. So even if they don’t base their sense of self on them, they rely on them.

I can’t word what I’m trying to say well at all, I guess what I mean is that I don’t think that dysphoria itself is always about stereotypes, but I think that any trans person who can’t say that they are a man/woman (based on their sex, not transition or identity) with dysphoria, and insists on not being called what they are is probably still holding on to gendered stereotypes. Even a TW saying not to call them a man seems to be doing so because of what they associate “man” to mean, even if they can acknowledge they’re not a woman.

I really hope that makes sense my brain is mush

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Wow the CSA connection is truly dire. They deserve a healthier, more functional coping tool than gender dogma.

I get what you mean, dysphoria itself can be caused by a myriad of things but sexist gender norms still seem to be the only way dysphoria is described or illustrated by sufferers.

A person might not be actively sexist or believe shit like skirt spinny=woman but still hold some level of sexism internally as true when they say they ‘want to be treated like a woman socially’ or whatever.

I think I get it. Might be miles off base though.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s exactly what I was trying to say but couldn’t articulate! Thank you, it would have bothered me until I found the wording lol

[–]anxietyaccount8 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (53 children)

Sometimes, I've seen TRAs talk about variations in sexuality and gender presentation that actually make a lot of sense. They say "of course a transwoman can be masculine, just like a cis woman can. Of course a transman can be feminine." But in reality, they don't practice what they preach. Many people don't seem to understand this nuance at all. They think that "women" are always completely comfortable being feminine and conforming. And "straight" just means boring.

On the subreddit r/GenderCynical, they occasionally call out GC people who just seem conservative and say "see? These so-called radfems support trad gender roles, but then they claim that we do that." But this is dishonest. They never take responsibility for their own movement making GNC people think they're trans.

And, if a trans person acts/dresses like their biological sex, why would they identify as trans in the first place? Well, maybe because they have body dysphoria. But the trans community isn't consistent with that either.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (52 children)

But gc isn't for gnc males. Only as far as saying this person is good for not saying they are female.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (51 children)

GC doesn't support the misogyny that passes for male gender nonconformity because femininity is a patriarchal construct created to oppress women. Unsurprisingly, most gender nonconforming men just have a fetish for imitating the misogynistic caricatures and the patriarchal hierarchies that their worldview revolves around. Remove their male supremacist ideology, and you lose the motivation to be "gender nonconforming"

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

This is a gotcha position for all gnc men. The only forms of male gnc behaviour are forms that gnc women find acceptable for gnc women. A logic trap that even people outside of the debate recognise.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

You're saying something is a logic trap without actually explaining why. Can you actually explain or is this going to end as usual at just saying things and praying they're true by virtue of posting them?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

What male gender non conformity is acceptable to you?

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

So, you have no intention of actually rationalising your claim as usual? I guess it's my fault for expecting the programming to glitch when it's been working so well.

Ok, maybe you'll want to answer a different question: why do you and QT make claims you know are full of hot air when you know you'll have to do this humiliating little dance around it every time and how do you keep your dignity from intervening?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

My question was meant to progress the debate. To find out what you thought.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

If you say something, and you are asked to rationalise it, awkwardly derailing and avoiding the questions because you know you're full of hot air is not "progressing the debate". Debate cannot be had if one side knows they have no argument and instead expends all their efforts into trying to avert attention from the fact that they have no argument, hoping that this will somehow make it seem like they're not actually wrong just because they ignore and disengage from what proves them wrong.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

To be honest you are the person here I find the most difficult to debate.

It comes across as a list of accusations.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

Maybe it's because they're relying on the diagnostic criteria for the gender identity disorders. Like, historically the criteria was based very much on stereotypes, and in order to get medical coverage or just to reinforce the validity of their being trans they need(ed) to experience or have experienced stereotypical, sexed behavior. If they didn't really experience that, then it makes sense why they might be more inclined to eschew stereotypes when they transition: that behavior isn't natural or familiar to them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

How exactly has the criteria changed?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Cross-sex identification is no longer a requirement because it presumes there are only two sexes, and distress about one's sex isn't required. The emphasis was put on the experience of gender dysphoria itself rather than it being conceptualized as a facet of a disorder, and now a diagnosis of gender dysphoria need only require substantial distress about one's own gender or gender role for an extended time. This older paper from before the change highlights what was unpopular about the older diagnosis (and what was eventually changed): http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?url=https://research.vumc.nl/ws/files/739005/256453.pdf&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0UOUYIyWL5z0yATO-73wBQ&scisig=AAGBfm0rouDCr3BaZTDoJG1LHVEJmtozlg&nossl=1&oi=scholarr

That paper brings up how many people with non-pathologized gender identities and variances did not qualify for GID diagnosis because of the focus on sex and transsexual perspective of female-to-male/male-to-female. Accommodations were successfully sought in order to expand the diagnosis to include other manifestations of gender non-conformity. Treatment doesn't quite seem to have caught up to the change because current treatment is still based on what was used for transsexuals--hopefully that's changing, though.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Fleurista, that paper is from 2009. It's 2021, LOL. A whole lot of has changed in the field of "gender care" and "transgender medicine" since then! From the title alone, the paper is clearly outdated - the very term "gender identity disorder" was jettisoned in the DSM-V and replaced by "gender dysphoria" when the DSM-V was finally published.

Moreover, as the title shows, that paper and the criteria it discusses are about adolescent and adult GID/GD. Wheres the discussion here is about the narratives trans-identified people tell about their childhoods, usually their early childhoods, to try to prove that they "knew" they were the opposite sex (or not their own sex) since as early as they can remember. From the OP:

literally every FTM I have heard has a story where they knew they where not girls because they played with trucks, climbed trees, wanted to play football, wanted to fix the car with their dad, liked wearing clothes from the boys isle, ect ect and every MTF has a story where they liked playing with dolls, hated riding bikes, liked the color pink, ect ect.

So what would be relevant here is the criteria for childhood gender dysphoria. The DSM-V says a diagnosis of clinical childhood gender dysphoria can be made if a child has six of the eight characteristics below and has felt "significant distress" for six months as a result. Note that six of the criteria are entirely about stereotypes, meaning a kid can get a clinical DX of CGD and be put on track for puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones starting at age 8, and a double mastectomy starting at 13: (see more below about these ages)

  • strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that they are the other gender
  • strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
  • strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
  • strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
  • strong preference for playmates of the other gender
  • strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of their assigned gender
  • strong dislike of their sexual anatomy
  • strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match their experienced gender

https://www.childrenshospital.org/conditions-and-treatments/conditions/g/gender-dysphoria/diagnosis-and-treatment


The ages cited above show at what age those interventions have been allowed in the USA since 2016 as outlined in Impact of Early Medical Treatment for Transgender Youth: Protocol for the Longitudinal, Observational Trans Youth Care Study by Joanna Olson-Kennedy et al - a study funded and approved by the National Institutes of Health.

Yes, the protocol for "trans youth care" currently in use in the USA - in use for 5 years now, in fact - allows kids to be given both PBs and CSHs as early as 8, and for girls to get their breasts removed as early as 13. All for having a desire/preference for the toys, games, clothes, fun stuff and stereotypes associated with the opposite sex, and for rejecting stuff associated with their own sex. In other words, these kids are being given medical interventions that will leave them sterile, sexually undeveloped, without libido, unable to have an orgasm and stunted in growth and overall development - all because they have incredibly sexist parents or guardians, they're autistic and/or have co-morbid mental health problems like OCD and depression, and/or they come from backgrounds of trauma, loss and abuse - often sex abuse. As a result these kids have become fixated on sex stereotypes, the fantasy of a magical transformation to the opposite sex, and the quick fix miracle cure that adult clinicians tell them will solve all their problems and bring them happiness, peace, pride and "authenticity."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6647755/

BTW, in talks about her work, Olson-Kennedy has said that a lot of the "trans kids" she treats have experienced homelessness, have histories of drug & alcohol use, and "many" have done "sex work" - meaning they have been prostituted, trafficked and raped.

The reason the invented, retconned narratives that adults like El Page are telling about their childhoods are fostering the growth & power of the mushrooming and voracious new pediatric gender identity medical industry and feeding little kids directly into its maw.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Yes! It's an old diagnosis, so it would be an old paper--I didn't mean to frame this as new research or anything, my point was to compare the old with the new. But I thought we were discussing adults' childhood experiences, not children themselves, but I suppose I was talking about people diagnosed in adolescence and adulthood and didn't clarify that. Since we were talking about people recounting their childhood gender non-conformity, I figured the adolescent and adult diagnosis was more relevant.

In any case, you bring up some very good points and observations!

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In examining the standard tropes that characterize so many trans early childhood origin narratives - TECONs for short - I think it's important to distinguish between the TECONs told by people who were transed by their parents as children, and the TECONs of people who've transitioned of their own volition later in life and who tell TECONSs that clearly involve huge whoppers that are the result of wishful thinking and retconning.

A classic feature of the TECON told by Jazz Jennings is that at age two Jazz asked, "When is the good fairy going to come to change my penis into a vagina?" Which is clearly total bullshit invented and told to Jazz by Jazz's family, most likely overbearing mum Jeannette, a classic case of Munchasen's by proxy and "living through your child" if there ever was one. Jazz has been so abused, and fed so much horseshit, since before Jazz could talk that it's going to take years of therapy - and distance from Jazz's toxic family of origin - for Jazz to figure out what was done to Jazz growing up.

So even though Jazz's TECON - along with Jazz's entire life and sense of self - are based on sexist stereotypes - and Jazz's story is used to indoctrinate thousands of other kids into embracing sex stereotypes and gender ideology - Jazz can't be held responsible. Adults made the choice to fill Jazz's head with sexist stereotypes and sex-change fantasies from the get-go. Jazz had no choice in the matter.

By contrast, those who jump aboard the trans train of their own volition later in life tend to come up with their own TECONs, so I think it's fair to hold them responsible for the stereotyping and dishonesty inherent to their accounts. And I think it's reasonable to call many of them out for their obvious retconning, particularly when they are public figures and they've done their retconning when they were already full-grown adults well past 25 or 30.

People in their teens and 20s, particularly their early 20s are still undergoing brain development, coming to terms with their childhoods, and figuring themselves out - so I'd cut them some slack. A great deal of slack in many cases. But people who come out as "trans" and retcon their childhoods later are fair game, especially if they go trans in order to make themselves famous & important like the grasping obvious climber Abigail Thorne, formerly Oliver, of Philosophy Tube - or coz they already are celebrities and their new claimed identities are clearly engineered to help them gain more social currency and prestige, like Caitlyn Jenner, Eddie Izzard or Jan Morris of yesteryear

El Page, age 34, is a good example. When El first publicly declared El's self to be a man, El said El had known since getting & liking a short haircut at age 9 that EL was actually a boy. More recently, El has started telling an entirely different version of what happened in El's childhood. Now the story is that El knew El was a boy when El was a toddler - in other words, when El was just learning to walk, which for most kids is around 12 months-old. In the new, more heavily retconned version of growing up trans, El at a year-old was even more precocious that Jazz Jennings supposedly was at two. Coz now El says that as a toddler boy, El not only had already learned to read and write, but El was actually writing love letters and signing them "Jason."

El Page's radically revised account of how El came to know El is really male makes sense given the political context. El's story of "knowing at 9" is politically "problematic" because age 9 is a little too old for El's story to be effective in advancing the notion that trans people are "born trans" and almost always "just know" who they are from the moment they first start developing consciousness and a sense of self. Moreover, if El didn't realize that El was a male until El was 9, then the tale of how El's transness came into being can't be used to debunk the theory put forward by Lisa Littmann, Abigail Shrier and many other "evil transphobes" - which posits that a lot of girls/women like El identifying as trans today are doing so partly in response to issues that came to the fore at or during puberty, or when puberty was fast approaching on the horizon, which most likely was the case for El at age 9. I'd bet good money that debunking the theory of sudden-onset "gender dysphoria" triggered by female puberty is part of the political agenda that El Page - with the assistance of the team of managers, lawyers, stylists, public relations specialists, image consultants and "LGBTQ" experts and advocates who are surely advising El - has set her sights on.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

El Page, age 34, is a good example. When El first publicly declared El's self to be a man, El said El had known since getting & liking a short haircut at age 9 that EL was actually a boy. More recently, El has started telling an entirely different version of what happened in El's childhood. Now the story is that El knew El was a boy when El was a toddler - in other words, when El was just learning to walk, which for most kids is around 12 months-old. In the new, more heavily retconned version of growing up trans, El at a year-old was even more precocious that Jazz Jennings supposedly was at two. Coz now El says that as a toddler boy, El not only had already learned to read and write, but El was actually writing love letters and signing them "Jason."

El Page's radically revised account of how El came to know El is really male makes sense given the political context. El's story of "knowing at 9" is politically "problematic" because age 9 is a little too old for El's story to be effective in advancing the notion that trans people are "born trans" and almost always "just know" who they are from the moment they first start developing consciousness and a sense of self. Moreover, if El didn't realize that El was a male until El was 9, then the tale of how El's transness came into being can't be used to debunk the theory put forward by Lisa Littmann, Abigail Shrier and many other "evil transphobes" - which posits that a lot of girls/women like El identifying as trans today are doing so partly in response to issues that came to the fore at or during puberty, or when puberty was fast approaching on the horizon, which most likely was the case for El at age 9. I'd bet good money that debunking the theory of sudden-onset "gender dysphoria" triggered by female puberty is part of the political agenda that El Page - with the assistance of the team of managers, lawyers, stylists, public relations specialists, image consultants and "LGBTQ" experts and advocates who are surely advising El - has set her sights on.

I can totally believe those changes about Page's "authentic self" discovery are politically motivated given the timing of Page's inflamatory coming out.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're looking too much into people not knowing that "toddler" isn't synonymous with "kid"

[–]Greensquidsphone 4 insightful - 8 fun4 insightful - 7 fun5 insightful - 8 fun -  (19 children)

Honestly a tough question to answer, especially for me since I was the exact opposite, but anyone who has had dysphoria from a young age has had a VERY warped experience with societal expectations of gender placed on them by society, their parents, their friends, etc. It wasn't my experience because from like 8-12 or 13 I was in hyper-repression mode (which obviously has a whole lot of other baggage but not relevant), but I think it's kind of hard to look at trans or nb people and say something like "well well well you say you don't uphold traditional gender roles but when you were 5 you looked up to your dad when he fixed the truck that one time explain yourself!" without taking into account that children are affected by society and take on a lot of influence from their parents without even realizing it. I don't really think it's reasonable to compare the actions of impressionable children to adults who have changed their own outlook and interaction with gender roles.

In other words I think it's reasonable to say "something like playing with dolls when I was 6 being raised around traditional gender roles is how I can safely say I knew" without that impeding any more current, reasoned view on gender roles and stereotypes being circumnavigated 15-20 years later.

[–]adungitit 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

anyone who has had dysphoria from a young age has had a VERY warped experience with societal expectations of gender placed on them by society, their parents, their friends, etc.

Considering the amount of trauma girls and women amass because of their female bodies, I don't think this is exclusive to trans people.

without taking into account that children are affected by society and take on a lot of influence from their parents without even realizing it.

We know. Which is why we're against transitioning children. And since we know how affected not only children but grownups are in our patriarchal society, this is also why we don't blindly believe any man the moment he uses "she/her" pronouns or any woman who's "not like other girls".

I don't really think it's reasonable to compare the actions of impressionable children to adults who have changed their own outlook and interaction with gender roles.

But doesn't the argument go that dysphoria is all about your brain having the opposite sex, and that by virtue of wanting to internalise all the opposite sex messaging, you are psychologically not any different from the girls and women who actually have experienced said messaging all their lives? When you have trans people almost universally claiming this, pointing out their history of gender conformity speaks volumes. To be clear, GC doesn't believe that gender conformity or nonconformity makes someone male or female. We just think that the way that trans people engage in these is pretty telling of the deeply rooted patriarchy inherent to the movement.

Moreover, the vast majority of adults never think about gender beyond the superficial patriarchal view on it, especially not men. Even self-proclaimed feminist men tend to be misogynists, let alone the progressives and liberals. It seems dishonest to then claim that a man becomes automatically immune to and purged of all of this because he claims he's a woman now, especially considering how rife trans communities are with sexist statements like the ones mentioned in this thread.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (16 children)

It’s less well well well you saw dad fix his truck and more well well well you say you’re in girl mode because you’re wearing lipstick and a dress today? Tell us more about how you’re not obeying gender norms.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

anyone who has had dysphoria from a young age has had a VERY warped experience with societal expectations of gender placed on them by society, their parents, their friends, etc.

You seem to be suggesting that growing up in extremely sexist home/social/cultural environments with extreme pressure to conform to rigid sex stereotypes leads in a straight line, as it were, to "gender dysphoria" & claiming to be the opposite sex. If that's the case, how come "gender dysphoria" and trans identities have only started to become widespread in the West in the current century - in fact, in the past 5-10 years? Why aren't these phenomena rife amongst those born in Western countries in the 1940s and early 50s? The "social expectations of gender" - and the widespread homophobia - that kids born back then had placed on them/us were more extreme than many younger people today can imagine. Yet a majority of people in that generation went the other way and challenged sex stereotypes & rejected homophobia. Instead of embracing and doubling down on sex stereotypes and rigid "heteronormativity," we embraced androgyny, unisex dress & hair styles, carved out new roles, tried out new kinds of relationships & living arrangements, came up with "women's lib," gay rights, glam rock, punk and "gender bending."

If you look at the course of human history across many cultures, I think you'll find that growing up in repressive/oppressive environments with a great deal of pressure to conform doesn't always mean embracing the repressive/oppressive beliefs that people were raised with as kids - it often means laughing at those beliefs and pressures, objecting to them, fighting them and throwing them off.

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Even if its not about stereotypes in theory, in practice it seems to be all about stereotypes. Just look at how tomboys are always assumed to be trans or nonbinary, because if she isn't perfectly feminine she's not a real woman, right? If they truly believe its not about stereotypes they need to seriously reexamine the way they're not practicing what they're preaching.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

Most of these stereotypes are about gender expression, not gender identity. I am male and pretty much masculine gender conforming. I am nonbinary because my gender self-image does not match my sex, causing gender dysphoria, which I treated with surgical transition. I do not see how I am breaking a stereotype.

My theory is that social gender roles emerge from biological sex differences, and there is something innate that causes most humans to latch on to one binary gender identity in early childhood. Those that do not latch on to the gender identity associated with their sex are trans.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What’s the difference between gender identity and gender expression?

Is the identity how one relates themselves to performing gender (gender expression)?

How is performing gender not sexist? We assign certain sorts performances as male and female, and saying one is a man because they prefer performing masculinity is saying that man is defined by the performance of masculinity.

Why do so many of us never experience a gender identity? What if we don’t perform femininity and still recognise ourselves as women? That cannot work if we’re using the ‘you are the gender you perform the norms of’.

What biological sex differences specifically lead to gender norms such as women caring about prettiness, being overly emotional, being inherently submissive, and being incapable of unemotional thinking? What’s the biological cause behind women being considered less capable of operating machines?

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Those that do not latch on to the gender identity associated with their sex are trans.

But not all of us are trans. Some of us acknowledge our biological sex and reject the gender identity associated with that sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And a much larger number of people acknowledge our biological sex and have no idea what the hell "gender identity" is.

Over history, a majority of people have struggled with/against the sexist sex stereotypes and expectations placed upon them as children and other times at life. Some people have made a big deal of rejecting sex stereotypes and defying expectations, but most people have grappled with these issues in their own ways without fanfare, making concessions and compromises here & there, drawing lines in the sand in other places, all in an effort to find some middle ground whilst getting on with life - obtaining an education, working, having & raising kids, dealing with health issues, caring for their parents, dealing with life's ups and downs, joys and heartbreaks etc. But the idea that all the people on earth either"latch on to the gender identity associated with their sex" or end up as trans is preposterous.

Take all the young men just entering adulthood in the US who had to spend "the best years of their lives" in the military in World War 2. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, millions of boys & men age in the US suddenly had their lives totally changed. Whilst the age of the men drafted was 18-45, all the young men 18-25 knew they were the ones who'd be put on the front lines to risk their lives - and every boy of 15, 16 or 17 knew he'd soon have to serve in the armed forces too. Those boys & young men were terrified of what they knew would be expected of them all because of their sex. Many cried in fear, then felt worse about themselves because as boys & men they knew they were supposed to feel brave and thrilled at the prospect of battle, not scared shitless and "bawling like little girls."

My own father, who ended up as a Navy recon and bomber pilot in the Pacific, was scared out of his wits, and traumatized by the whole experience - and sex stereotypes and sexist expectations were a part of it. It was his manly duty, he'd always been told, to fight for his country if the need arose. But he'd also been raised to believe that real men should be protective of children and women, and so he had terrible qualms about the many missions he went on when the targets for the bombs he & his crew dropped on Japan and other Japanese occupied territories were factories and industrial plants that they knew were all "manned" by women & children, & relatively young children (coz all the older boys had been conscripted into the military). All those ideas about what being a man meant, and the pressure to live up to manly codes of behavior whilst at the same time breaking fundamental tenets of those manly codes, screwed up men like my father big time - and for the rest of their lives. Talk about dysphoria over sex roles and stereotypes - the men who fought in WW2, and the women whose lives on the home front changed radically virtually overnight too, all had it in spades.

Similarly, during the period of the US military intervention in Vietnam hundreds of thousands of young men suffered what today could be characterized as "gender dysphoria" over the expectations - no, the demands - placed on them coz of their sex. It's just that they interpreted their distress, shame and feelings of conflict, panic, foreboding and sense of having no escape and no choice in different ways, gave it different names, and tried to resolve it in other ways. As books like Tim O'Brien's The Thing They Carried, Michael Herr's Dispatches and movies like The Deer Hunter, Born on The Fourth of July, Platoon, Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket and Coming Home show.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My theory is that social gender roles emerge from biological sex differences, and there is something innate that causes most humans to latch on to one binary gender identity in early childhood.

So how do you account for the fact that most people do not have a "gender identity" at all? If "gender identity" is innate and arises from biology, how come the term and concept only were invented and introduced in the 1960s & 1970s - and only began to come into widespread use amongst a significant chunk of the population in the 21st century? How did all the experts who over the course of many decades studied, charted & described the stages & processes of child development from infancy into adulthood - including how humans develop our sense of self (self-concept) & sense of worth - miss it? And how come even today when the idea that everyone has a "gender identity" and "gender" is so central to the human psyche is popular particularly amongst youth and those who consider themselves "progressive," do so many people find such views both untrue and objectionable?

I find it telling that the clinicians who came up with the term and concept of "gender identity" in the 1960s and helped to popularize it later through their influential books - Robert Stoller and John Money - not only were men, but they were sexologists whose clinical practices and research were heavily or mainly focused on a very small, select substrata of humanity: men with the "deviant" sexual interests that Money re-named "paraphilias" (previously, sexologists had called them "perversions," which was jettisoned coz it sounded too pejorative); persons with disorders of physical sex development (whom both erroneously and cruelly called "hermaphrodites, and for whom Money advocated genital surgeries to make them look more "normal"); and psychiatric patients who at the time were considered to have psycho-sexual "pathologies," including what was then called "transsexualism."

Indeed, Stoller and Money based their ideas on "masculinity," "femininity," "gender," "gender role" and "gender identity" not on in-depth study of the general population, but on their work with "transsexuals" and homosexual persons who represented only that small segment of the gay and lesbian population who fit the most stereotyped views of what homosexuals are like (in other words, those who fit either the "girly man"/"swish" or "stone butch"/"bull dyke" mold). [My apologies for using terms some might find offensive, but I'm trying to show the narrow frame of reference sexologists like Stoller & Money had.] In other words, Stoller and Money drew their ideas about "gender" and "gender identity" precisely from those persons in the population preoccupied with issues of "femininity" and "masculinity" and "hung up on" trying to "present" an image to the world based on sex stereotypes, albeit the sex stereotypes associated with the opposite sex rather than their own. Then they extrapolated from that select group ideas they claimed were "universal truths" that pertain to the entire human race. Similar to you saying that because you personally have a "gender identity," then "most humans" must have one too, and it's caused by "something innate" in our species arising from the fact that humans are anisogamous and sexually dimorphic.

[–]penelopekitty 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My theory is that social gender roles emerge from biological sex differences, and there is something innate that causes most humans to latch on to one binary gender identity in early childhood. Those that do not latch on to the gender identity associated with their sex are trans.

The very definition of bio essentialism.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Ha, as an essentialist I'd say "stereotypes" are unavoidable.

Though trans people trend to be more non conforming than cis people.

Non conforming people are tiny percent of the population.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Because that is the one of the tangible things they can hinge their arguments on. The entire thing is sexist and abstract as soon as you realise that what makes a personality "feminine" or "masculine" is context dependent (e.g. time period, local culture). Then they try to invade science, and try to interpret research on human brain structures (which change over time due to hormones, stress etc.) as evidence there's a distinct female and male brain (as shown in small sample sizes those papers) to try to legitimise their claims.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (3 children)

You’re looking at this backwards. Its not “I liked x so Im y” its “I am y so I became interested in x because society pushes x onto y’s”. I mean its not like cis girls have a biological attraction to certain toys or interests, its all just societal messaging and it affects trans girls to, even if just unconsciously.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

What?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

What what?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

X- dolls Y-female (Just to make my point clear, not saying this is what you meant)

It’s not « I liked dolls so I’m a female » it’s « i am a female (even though Im literally a male, even according to my matrix that only I understand, because at the time I’m coming to this conclusion, I haven’t taken any steps to transition, thus I appear male) and I became interested in dolls because society pushes dolls onto females (even though society didn’t push dolls onto me because I’m still on the male part of the matrix)

That’s what

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Many children are raised with gender stereotypes. Girls get “girl toys”, boys get “boys toys”, generally the stereotype is being reinforced by the parents, just in how they’re treated and the gifts they’re given. So I'm guessing it might be the easiest way to explain when they realized they were "different".