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[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Trans women who present femme need access to women's bathrooms for the same reason as cis women: shelter from predatory male behaviour that targets women. Trans women get similar attention to cis women, and also risk being bashed by transphobes. They are seeking asylum fro persecution. Transitioned trans women tend to present a lot more femme than effeminate men. So, I guess I am saying that bathroom access should be based on gender expression; not how successful someone is a passing, but evidence of effort. It seems like the most workable compromise.

I support self ID for identity documents only (or even better, ridding identity documents of gender markers). Identity documents are not used for bathroom access.

I wonder which bathroom GNC cis men like makeup artist John Maclean use. He presents very femme.

[–]divingrightintowork 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah I'm not going to bother having this argument - male violence is not a women's problem - and you're not presenting a system for how access to women's spaces won't be abused or taken advantage of by bad actors or oblivious assholes who think they're special - trans people clearly have the clout to change societal issues, there are any number of other solutions they could be working for other than just taking away women's rights for sex solitary spaces - and of course if the TW really is passing, than there is nothing stopping them from using a woman's space and making other people uncomfortable... but if he isn't...

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The majority of women seem to be fine with granting shelter to trans women, and the ones I have asked have said they are more than happy to boot bad actors out of women's spaces on a case-by-case basis. There are so few trans people that cis predators are still the real problem; cis predators have no need to pretend to be trans to perpetrate their violence. No need to have this argument: it has already been resolved.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree there’s no need to have this argument, but you didn’t even address what was said to have the argument. Doesn’t matter that some women are comfortable with transwomen In their spaces- not all females are. And those spaces were made for females, end of. If your resolution is to just ignore the females (girls and women) who don’t feel comfortable with males in their spaces and to dismiss the fear that allowing males in the spaces could be dangerous potentially- nothing is resolved. You’re basically telling the women and girls who want female spaces to be for females to deal with having their safe spaces invaded and compromised for the sake of males. It’s absurd to me that the solutions to transwomens issues is almost always to strip females of their needs and rights. And you call it a resolution.

[–]divingrightintowork 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

First it's not woman A's place to give up woman B's place - Just like if you date a bisexual woman who says you're her lesbian girlfriend, you don't get to tell demand entry into a lesbian space - also citations please - by the numbers no the majority of women don't accept TWs into their spaces - but again, the makers of the space get to decide who is / is not a woman, no?

Indeed - the argument has already been resolved, most ts males still have their penises, therefore most women (and men) don't want them in women's spaces - https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/mpoll3a.jpg

It doesn't touch ts males without a penis but you seem to think gender presentation is more important than whether or not they're in tact... while it seems society certainly has clear thoughts on that. But regardless, it isn't your space to claim, and it's not other women's to give away.

And why not just boot male predators and problematic actors from men's spaces?

[–]penelopekitty 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Someone will have to define what "transitioned" means and enforce that. What is your definition and how do you see that line being legally enforced in day to day settings?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Transitioned has to mean some form of gender expression, that is, enough visible cues that someone is trying to live as a woman. I do not see any way that this can be legally enforced.

[–]penelopekitty 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How does one 'live as a woman?'

[–]maldita-sudakafeminist-woman 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In Chile, minors between the age of 14-17 need approval of their parents/tutors and "proofs". https://www.bcn.cl/leyfacil/recurso/ley-de-identidad-de-genero Married people also need some additional bureocracy, since same-sex marriage is not legal in Chile. Only single people over the age of 18 can legally transition with 2 witnesses, a max of 2 times in their life. So, third world countries are still more strict legally.

[–]Thatstealthygal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If a trans woman looks femme enough there shouldn't even be an issue. Nobody's going to check your chromosomes at the door.

I'd love to ask John Maclean that question but he'd probably say he only goes in his own personal palace.