QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity?

submitted by IceColdLover from self.GCdebatesQT

I am at a point now with my views on trans issues that I believe if a male person has actual diagnosed dysphoria related to their body (NOT to gender roles because you do not fix social issues with medical intervention) they should be able to transition, I will call them the pronouns they wish to be called and respect their chosen name, but they should also be respectful of the spaces they enter and recognize when certain ones are not appropriate for them (i.e. trans women on female sports teams who have an unfair physical advantage). I frankly cannot be bothered to care if trans men access men's spaces because men are not a protected sex class nor a marginalized group, my sole concern is we not remove women from discussions around menstruation, childbirth, etc.

I do not have the same empathy for people who believe self-ID is sufficient, who want to transition because of dissatisfaction with the gender roles assigned to their sex, nor who do not physically transition and wish to be called trans. I think it is a medical condition and must be medicalized at all times.

But why should I accept non-binary people's sense of self? Why should I play along with the view that just because you think your interests and personality traits are atypical for your sex that this makes you a third gender and I must use neo-pronouns with you? Why should I indulge your "I'm not like the other girls!" as if there is something wrong with being a woman or a girl that you want so desperately to distance yourself? Why should I indulge your "I'm not like the other boys!" as if all men and boys must be a walking poster-child for toxic masculinity frat boy who never grew up behavior? Why should I indulge your narcissism and pathological need for attention?

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[–]slushpilot 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

This is such a key point that it warrants highlighting. +100.

actual diagnosed dysphoria related to their body (NOT to gender roles because you do not fix social issues with medical intervention)

That is also the same issue I have with so-called "non-binary". This identity isn't based in anything more than superficial clothes, make-up and silly pronouns. You could already do those things without expecting everyone to address you as a unique category.

Again, if you're legitimately intersex, then I'll accept that! But we know everyone is just playing dress-up and expecting us to pretend it's something more—it's such an embarrassing fad.

[–]IceColdLover[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I take the transmedicalist "truscum" view of who is trans. Discontent with societal gender roles and mere desires to be the opposite sex because of them are both entirely irrelevant to me and do not compel me that your self-ID should be validated.

If someone does not have dysphoria, then their discontent when I refuse to validate their feelings is an issue that can be fixed through therapy and evaluation for narcissistic personality disorder, and threats of suicide are nothing more than mental manipulation.

If you have a mentally pressing, immutable feeling that your body should be that of the opposite sex and it causes you to be so discontent with continuing to live as your birth sex that you feel an immediate need to transition otherwise an inability to go on, you are trans and I will respect your pronouns, chosen name, etc. out of compassion.

[–]slushpilot 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Right—but to your point, "non-binary" isn't even "trans". I don't think there is a "transmed" argument for non-binary unless we mean intersex.

Or else, what is this "non-binary dysphoria" and what is it rooted in.

[–]IceColdLover[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You are right which is why I do not support it. I do not support people who have a pathological need for attention and being "special" and trying to force me to validate their need to be special and unique. I think "non-binary" is the result of various sociopolitical forces:

  1. The "everyone is special in his or her own way!" participation trophy mentality pushed by this generation's parents and the need to feel special and unique

  2. People who are gender-nonconforming who are correct in recognizing the oppressiveness of gender roles but have mistakenly conflated being GNC with being another gender altogether

  3. Western identity politics and the desire to find some way in which one is "oppressed" because of the social currency it provides to people on the political Left

  4. Mental disorders such as narcissistic personality disorder and a pathological need for attention and being centered and validated.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

participation trophy mentality pushed by this generation's parents and the need to feel special and unique

Well, everyone is special and unique. But that is not what they are doing, they are doing "Everyone is special and unique, including me, so everyone else must know how special and unique I am (or "my kid is")".

[–]DistantGlimmer 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

There was someone on the old sub who claimed to have dysphoria for both sexes and be non-binary because of this. Hard to understand but I guess it is a thing with some people.

Quite sure with the vast majority of them it is just a fashion trendy thing though and a way for males to claim they opt-out of privilege.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

to have dysphoria for both sexes

Isn't it just called "child free" if you don't want to fulfill a role of either sex in reproduction?

[–]IceColdLover[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Quite sure with the vast majority of them it is just a fashion trendy thing though and a way for males to claim they opt-out of privilege.

Yep. See point #4 on my list.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I am nonbinary and my white male privilege is just fine. I am sick of all the grievance farming. I am the one who knocks.

[–]DistantGlimmer 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Do you see yourself as having dysphoria for both sexes?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I would rather have been born female, but the realisation that I would have then wanted to remove my female reproductive tract was part of my understanding that I was nonbinary and not a trans woman. So yes, I imagine that I would have also had dysphoria if I had been born female. Whether I would have felt differently in reality, who knows? shrug

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I would rather have been born female, but the realisation that I would have then wanted to remove my female reproductive tract was part of my understanding that I was nonbinary and not a trans woman

And what about majority of modern transwomen, who don't want surgery and saying they are women with penises and do not want to have female reproductive organs just like you? Are they in reality just non-binary, but because of all this confusion with queer theory, just confused to call themself as trans instead?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There is no technology to give trans women female reproductive organs; surgeons can only craft a neovagina. Vaginoplasty is dangerous, painful, and expensive. Most trans women get enough bodily changes to get by with oestrogen alone. I do not think this makes them nonbinary.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Then what the difference, if in everything, but how they call themselves and severity of dysphoria, those two categories are identical? Only in the way they want everyone else to perceive them?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Or else, what is this "non-binary dysphoria" and what is it rooted in.

Same as binary dysphoria, but without binary gender identity. Same train, different destination.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I take the transmedicalist "truscum" view of who is trans.

The fact that it's called truscum was something that opened my eyes to the issues within the QT community. Like "scum" is such a hostile word, for a belief that most non-activist people who are trans-supporting agree with. That kind of distain for other people who have similar life circumstances really bothered me. Shouldn't communities be uplifting each other without such weird branding and othering?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

“Non binary” makes even less sense than TWAW and TMAM. I don’t and can’t take them seriously. I don’t even think non-binary people know what they mean. I feel like non-binary is the new emo, but also just people who need to feel special and need to be a part of a group. It’s so silly.

[–]IceColdLover[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is exactly what it is.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't get it, either. To me, the only way "non-binary" would make sense would be in reference to people like u/catoboros, people with dysphoria who modified their bodies, but not to the point of passing as the opposite sex. Even then, I feel like just "trans" would work better. It's not possible to be neither male nor female.

Why should I indulge your "I'm not like the other girls!" as if there is something wrong with being a woman or a girl that you want so desperately to distance yourself?

I find it remarkable that none of them seem to understand what they're doing. It's like they think they're so much better than the rest of us, as if we all somehow enjoy our oppression and accept negative stereotypes, while they alone can be "pure" by stating they're non-female. But yet they've convinced themselves they're the ones who are progressive and somehow erasing gender roles.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am at a point now with my views on trans issues that I believe if a male person has actual diagnosed dysphoria related to their body (NOT to gender roles because you do not fix social issues with medical intervention) they should be able to transition,

Adults can do what they want with their bodies.

I frankly cannot be bothered to care if trans men access men's spaces because men are not a protected sex class nor a marginalized group, my sole concern is we not remove women from discussions around menstruation, childbirth, etc

It's usually trans men who ask you to use terms like "pregnant people" and "people with uteruses, not trans women.

I do not have the same empathy for people who believe self-ID is sufficient, 

I have no issue with self-ID. Even as a person with mental illness, I had to self ID to get help.

who want to transition because of dissatisfaction with the gender roles assigned to their sex,

Most people are transitioning due to dysphoria.

nor who do not physically transition and wish to be called trans.

OK, than make it easier for trans people to access hormones. But I will still call a person trans whether they have physically transitioned or not. I will also use preferred pronouns.

But why should I accept non-binary people's sense of self? Why should I play along with the view that just because you think your interests and personality traits are atypical for your sex that this makes you a third gender and I must use neo-pronouns with you? 

Personally I think we should come up with a gender neutral singular pronoun for everyone. That said, non-binary means someone who isn't male or female. There is a YouTuber called Charlie the Prophet and they are black and non-binary and have an androgynous name and appearance.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with almost everything you wrote.

non-binary means someone who isn't male or female

I use nonbinary to refer to gender identity, and female and male to refer to immutable binary biological sex, so there are female nonbinary people and male nonbinary people. Likewise, this explains nonbinary lesbians and he/him lesbians, for whom lesbian means homosexual female.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm replying late but I want to understand your position on this. I know you haven't replied in a month so idk

I am at a point now with my views on trans issues that I believe if a male person has actual diagnosed dysphoria related to their body

What do you think causes this dysphoria? Is it always a medical condition in the a physical sense or can it be a physiological sense?

What do you think about someone who physically transitions but doesn't feel any dysphoria?

How about someone who feels no dysphoria about their penis and doesn't want to do surgery due to that? I am not counting people who wish they could do it but the surgery has too many risks or doesn't produce good enough results (which I respect), and may take smaller steps like orchiectomy.

Do you believe transitioning is the best or only way to relieve dysphoria?

Do you think it's okay to not respect pronouns, why or why not?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I am gender conforming and nonbinary. My dysphoria was with my physical body; I am now a eunuch. Gender identity is entirely subjective and cannot be validated. I do not seek attention. I have never used a neopronoun; anyone requesting one gets "they/them".

I think the problem with trans visibility is one of confirmation bias: you see the trans people who are actively seeking attention, especially narcissists. Nonbinary people can be quite good at drawing attention to themselves if they avoid conforming to gender roles, but most have better things to do.

Nonbinary people are, first and foremost, people. We have complicated personal histories that are much more than feeling slightly uncomfortable with gender roles. Narcissists are poison and should be avoided whether they are trans or cis. No doubt there are some nonbinary people who are also narcissists, but their narcissism is the problem, not their gender identity.

[–]IceColdLover[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I respect your answer. I would be perfectly happy to refer to you as you see fit. Since the majority of self-declared non-binary people do not have dysphoria nor do they receive surgery of any kind on their bodies, you can understand why my perception is of people who just want to be special. Very different from what you have described.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

All the nonbinary people I know want or have had surgery/hormones. All those years of quiet desperation. Trenders are a small and noisy but unrepresentative subset. Many trans people go through a coming out phase then just get on with life.

[–]questioningtw 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is where I am at too. An adult transitions from mtf or ftm; that is their business and it is absurd to tell trans women or trans men that they should use their natal sexed bathroom when they no longer are really. And I feel empathy for trans people that are in the middle ofd transitioning or are trying to transition. But this beyond narcissistic, I should be able to id how I want no questions! needs to stop. I was lurking on the genderqueer subreddit and it was ridiculous how many woman are trying to opt out of being women because"they just aren't like other girls"