all 22 comments

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)


a need for attention

A need to feel special

Needing to fit into a community

Mental illness

[–]IceColdLover[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can't say I disagree.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Mental illness

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you, I know.

[–]DistantGlimmer 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Gender identity ideology reinforces gender stereotypes. If you believe most people identify with a set of gender roles I think people, especially younger people want a way to express that they don't. Neither gender stereotype is attractive to most people. I think we should be pushing the message that "everybody is non-binary" which is just a rephrasing of encouraging people to reject gender roles but it's hard when the dominant ideology right now contradicts that. It's one of the things that makes the whole idea of gender identity so harmful and wrong.

[–]IceColdLover[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't know why we don't get rid of gender roles entirely, if we did then this entire discussion would be a moot point because there would be no standards. There would still be trans people who feel physical dysphoria around their biological sex, but that is not GENDER dysphoria it is SEX dysphoria, which in my opinion is really what being trans is all about.

[–]DistantGlimmer 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Completely agree and we were making moves in that direction before this ideology took over which was probably even a better alternative from the point of view from transsexuals with sex dysphoria. It almost seems like some people in powerful positions kind of like gender roles (or just want to look socially progressive without doing much of anything to address economic inequality).

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I think gender roles emerged from sex differences. Now people perform them to advertise their reproductive fitness. Evolutionary biology. I think eradicating gender roles is an uphill battle. Might as well complain about gravity. Instead, embrace acceptance of gender nonconformity so that individuals can lead their lives unconstrained by gender roles.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In different countries they are still different, and in different ages. Some years ago high heels and leggins were men only and women were not wearing them and not allowed to wear them. And few centuries earlier (and even nowadays in some countries and communities) dress-like clothing was mostly men-only as well. Even as far as just 30 years ago in my country some traits which are now considered as "feminine" were considered as "masculitne".

Almost always gender roles were pushed on women as form of sexism and because women literally had no rights at all and were forced to look, act or do what they were said. In many countries it is still like that, more than half of women population of the world are still living like that, without rights and with enforced rules of femininity on them (or rules on hiding femininity with burqas and such), while men at same time can be anything (except what is considered feminine by that society) and are changing what "masculine" is whenever they like. In many western countries women get out of this only 30-50 years ago. And just 20 years ago women finally got rights to look whatever - and now gender/queer theory saying again that women must act, look and behave in some ways, otherwise they are not women anymore but non-binaries or transmen. All our hard won autonomy is again under the pressure and questioned.

[–]FlanJam 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I've heard people describe nonbinary it sounded like a new way of saying "I'm not like other girls." It wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't impose it on gnc women and reinforce gender roles. And I understand that's not necessarily the intent, but that's what ends up happening.

[–]kwallio 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will preface this by saying that I don't know any nb people irl, so I haven't experience the attention seeking behavior that you are talking about. I really feel bad for the youth of today, they are coming of age in a truly bizarre time. I can't really judge someone for attempting to escape the misogyny thats happening now (I was in high school 1990-1993, when I was in college we had grunge and the riot girls etc, there's nothing like that now). It does seem very much "I'm not like other girls" and who knows, I might have fallen for it when I was a teenager. I wasn't very attractive, could not really conform very well to gender norms, also never wanted children, had a lot of sterotypically male hobbies, etc. I was tho under the thumb of my militantly christian and conformist mom so any gender bending activity would have earned me a spot at a reform school, so I toed the line. Not sure where I'm going with this, I think 90% of people who are doing the nb thing are just playing with their identity like young people do and will move past it eventually.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

They don’t. They may have body dysphoria for instance. Or some may just be uncomfortable labeled as men or women for whatever reason. Some may do it based on behavior but it’s hardly a universal.

[–]IceColdLover[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Or some may just be uncomfortable labeled as men or women for whatever reason.

If not based on gender stereotypes or a pathological need to be different/special, then this sounds like, in the case of female NB people, internalized sexism because of society's negative portrayal of what it means to be a woman and the oppression that comes with it, and in the case of male NB people, a desire to say "I'm not like the other guys" and find a way to be in an oppressed category rather than a privileged one.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Or because it is just uncomfortable. Or because they just don’t like men. Or for a million reasons that may have nothing to do with pressure of gender roles.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Not all nonbinary people are GNC. I am a eunuch. I present pretty much entirely masc. I do not care about pronouns.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I’m just curious and this is confusing to me. If you aren’t GNC, why do you identify as nonbinary?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

For over 20 years, I experienced discomfort with my maleness and my masculinity. Over time, I realised that I was experiencing Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (DSM-IV-TR), Gender Dysphoria (DSM-5), or in other words, a nonbinary gender identity. It took me a long time to realise that what I was experiencing was very similar to other trans people, despite my conformance to my natal gender. I feel much better since my transition.

Trans people can be GNC, but, like many on this sub, I spread the word that people do not have to be trans to be GNC. Many binary trans people are stereotypically gender conforming in an effort to pass; I hope for a world in which they can be GNC without fear.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing! I’d never looked at Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified before. Non-binary isn’t something I really understand outside of gender nonconformity (or maybe in general), but I can understand feeling uncomfortable with your body. Was it just important to differentiate yourself socially I guess? You mentioned you don’t care about pronouns though so I’m all types of confused... lol. Was it just about getting the surgery you wanted?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GISNOS is deprecated since DSM-5 (2013). Surgery was the most important thing to me and a huge relief. I do not see how I can differentiate myself socially because there are only two gender roles and none for the agender. I am pretty much a hermit so I do not see the point.

[–]questioningtw 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Honestly, to me a lot of non binary identities come across as incredibly narcissistic. They are either I am not like other guys! i am sensitive and hate sports, therefore I am something other then a man. Or I never felt like a woman because I am not catty and play the guitar! Weirdly though i never see any female mechanics or male nurses id as nonbinary or genderqueer, it is always these people that honestly don't seem to have much going on in their lives.

[–]IceColdLover[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is how I feel. It is people who are otherwise not interesting people and need to supplement their boring personality with something "new" and "hip".

[–]questioningtw 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. if being non binary were a real thing you would be seeing non binary people from all walks of life. Instead pretty much every NB person is white, usually female and well off.