QT: Where are the “trans men” athletes winning against men?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

Trans activists say that there should not be sex categories in sports. Instead, they propose people should participate according to their “gender identity”. The discussion around sports and trans identity focus mainly in trans males. There seems to be two positions coming from the transactivists side: one that says suppressing testosterone levels for a certain period of time is enough to erase any athletic advantage they have over females, and other that says lowering testosterone is not needed because males don't have any athletic advantage. The first position seems to be used to gain the favour of the general public. However, as trans activists in general support self-ID, it seems the second position is the ultimate aim, which it would reduce the first position as a stepping-stone.

If males who identify as trans can compete with women just fine, then it follows females who identify as trans can compete with men as well. So, why don’t we hear more about them? Where are all the trans females winning against men and breaking men's records?

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[–]SnowAssMan 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Male athletes are prohibited from taking testosterone. It qualifies as doping. Surely that would disqualify any medically transitioned female from participating in either men's or women's sports.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

All athletes of both sexes are prohibited from taking exogenous testosterone and many other PEDs. Except when they've obtained a TUE (therapeutic use exemption), which is hardly ever issued in the case of T.*

Some sports governing bodies are allowing females who are taking T to participate in male sports. One of the reasons is that whilst girls & women on T develop significant sports advantages over females, they don't come anywhere near to performing at male levels. So it's unlikely they're going to be taking away medals from males, bumping male athletes off rosters or winning male sports scholarships & awards.

However, such policies are unfair to male athletes, particularly in contact sports. Even when bulked up on T, female athletes are much more vulnerable to certain kinds of injuries like concussions than males in sports, & since taking T doesn't change lots of aspects of female physiology such as height, skeletal structure & bone density, there's a high risk even females bulked up on T will be hurt or even killed in contact sports with males during & after puberty. Most male athletes would feel horrible for causing such injuries, so if they're forced to compete against females many will hold back, not playing at their best.

Allowing females on T into male sports is unfair to male athletes in team sports, coz obviously every time a subpar-performing athlete joins a team, the chances of the entire team winning goes down. When a trans-identified female swimmer joined the Harvard men's team, that athlete's scores brought down the overall team score.

Allowing females on T into male sports is unfair to males also coz my impression is that most boys & men really don't want to have to share locker rooms, showers, toilets, therapeutic baths, physio facilities, overnight sleeping accommodations & guy talk with someone of the opposite sex who wishes she were actually male. At first some fellas might be okay with it, but I think the novelty would wear off quick. Boys & men have a right to bodily privacy too. And as I imagine you know, adolescent boys are prone to spontaneous erections that cause them embarrassment. Why create situations bound to cause boys discomfort?

Also, allowing trans-identified females into male sports & intimate spaces would create minefields in other ways. Trans-identified females who consider themselves to be gay men are bound to get pissed off that the boys/men they crush on don't want to have sex with them, so they're bound to hurl accusations of homophobia & transphobia - & some might behave in ways that are sexually inappropriate & boundary-transgressing. Look at the recent mess in the UK surrounding Chiyo Gomes, a mentally unwell trans-identifed female competing to be named Mr Gay England. If some boys/men do have sex with them, the trans-identified females are bound to have unwanted pregnancies - & some will probably say they've been coerced, raped & or sexually assaulted in other ways.

In the case of Mack Beggs, the state of Texas said Beggs couldn't compete in boys wrestling, but allowed Beggs to compete in female wrestling even though Beggs was taking male levels of T. Which is why Beggs was girls' state champion several years in a row.

*An exception to this might be if female athlete has had to have her ovaries removed due to a disease or disorder, & the HRT she is prescribed contains estrogen & testosterone in the same amounts that females normally make (meaning a small amount of T). When young & MA women lose their ovaries, it used to be been the norm to prescribe a combo pill containing E with a smidgeon of T. But since the big study on the dangers of exogenous HRT in women came out circa 2002, it's been hard for female people to get any kind of hormone therapy due to ovary removal or menopause. If you claim to be trans or non-binary, getting hormones prescribed is easy. But if you're a bog standard woman who's experienced ovarian failure, removal or menopause, it's been very difficult to get HRT for nearly 20 years now.

Another exception theoretically could be for males who've lost a testicle to cancer. Lance Armstrong long told himself & others that he was justified in doping coz he'd lost a testicle to cancer. But last year, he admitted that he started doping at 21 & that his doping might have been a contributing factor in bringing his cancer about in the first place.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wow! I admit that when I wrote this post I did thinking trans females weren't allowed to compete while taking testosterone. That is why I remarked transactivists' claims of males don't having an athletic advantage over women. It was a pre-counterpoint of QT saying "transitioned" females aren't allowed to compete. I didn't know some sport's bodies already made special exceptions for them. Interesting how females athletes want to be allowed to take testosterone while male athletes don't want to lower their testosterone levels...

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, those positions just go to show that testosterone makes no difference! LOL

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

female athletes are much more vulnerable to certain kinds of injuries like concussions than males in sports

Considering how many men injure and kill themselves due to their far-too aggressive sports (and other things, i.e. military training), I find it a bit of a double standard when people show disproportionate concern specifically for women facing risks of injury.

Also, allowing trans-identified females into male sports & intimate spaces would create minefields in other ways. Trans-identified females who consider themselves to be gay men are bound to get pissed off that the boys/men they crush on don't want to have sex with them, so they're bound to hurl accusations of homophobia & transphobia - & some might behave in ways that are sexually inappropriate & boundary-transgressing.

You can say literally the same thing about gay men.

& some will probably say they've been coerced, raped & or sexually assaulted in other ways.

What is this "false rape accusations" fearmongering?

Another exception theoretically could be for males who've lost a testicle to cancer.

I thought losing one testicle didn't affect testosterone?

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Little League Baseball has been "inclusive" of both sexes since 1974. Since then, more than 11,040 boys have made it to the LLB World Series. And 19 girls.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Obviously the girls need to work harder to be better, that' s the only possible explanation for that!!!! 😒😒😒

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

In fairness, there might have been more girls if girls were actually encouraged to play Little League. Most girls are told to play softball instead. I was the only girl on any of my Little League teams as a kid. I never saw another female player.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Little League has Tee Ball, Softball and Baseball divisions. Tee Ball and Baseball are open to both sexes, as Softball originally was when LL became allowed girls to join in 1974. However, in the Tee Ball stage, most girls ended up going in the direction of softball, whilst most boys chose baseball. Now, LL Softball is a protected division exclusively for females, starting at age 4 through 16. However, LL BB of all age categories is still open to both sexes. This is how most sports are: the girls' sports are female-only, the "boys' sports" are open to both sexes.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That's true, but I doubt the numbers would be even anyway. A bit better for sure, but not that much better. I don't remember where I saw it, but there were videos of high school teenagers easily beating female Olympionic athletes, I doubt it would be much different in this case.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't think the numbers would be even, but for sure there would be more girls. Especially since Little League only goes up to age 12.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Little League including LLB is for children 4-16. https://www.littleleague.org/play-little-league/

https://www.littleleague.org/play-little-league/baseball/

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Mack Beggs is one of the two female athletes often brought up in these convos. Beggs, beefed up on testosterone, trounced all female competitors in girls HS wrestling in Texas & easily became the statewide champ.

After graduating from HS, Beggs enrolled at Life University in the USA state of Georgia. Beggs made it to the male track team's official roster but has never competed.

Edit: abbreviation removed. I apologize for using it & for any offense I caused. It was accidental.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[M] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Hi MT! Can you please replace that acronym with something else in your comment? Thanks!

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Done. Sorry. It was an accident, but I should've taken more care.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No worries! Ty

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe so as not to cause distress you could edit your post to say something like

Can you please replace the acronym that you used against the sub rules?

I don't want my original mistake to become memorialized. Thanks.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There seems to be two positions coming from the transactivists side: one that says suppressing testosterone levels for a certain period of time is enough to erase any athletic advantage they have over females, and other that says lowering testosterone is not needed because males don't have any athletic advantage. The first position seems to be used to gain the favour of the general public. However, as trans activists in general support self-ID, it seems the second position is the ultimate aim, which it would reduce the first position as a stepping-stone.

Yes, it appears that the second position is the goal. Over the weekend, CNN gave a platform for Veronica Ivy/Rachel McKinnon to argue that testosterone suppression requirements are a human rights violation as well as unnecessary coz testosterone and going through male puberty give males absolutely no advantages in sports.

The CNN host asked, “Veronica, what’s your answer to the Connecticut moms who say ‘my daughter can’t compete, my kids have no shot, they can’t compete with these trans female [sic] athletes?’” And Ivy responded, “It’s not because they’re trans that these cis athletes couldn’t win, it’s that they weren’t fast enough.”

(BTW, CT allows boys to compete in girls school sports without any T suppression; and the two trans athletes in the CT case were not on any kind of hormone treatment during the time they competed in girls' sports. However, in the federal lawsuit the two trans athletes said they have since started some kind of hormone treatment. This was immaterial to the case coz by then they'd finished HS. Moreover, in making the disclosure, their lawyer slipped up, implying that being on T suppression should make males eligible for female sports when all along those on the side of the CT trans athletes have said that male T levels & male puberty don't give them any benefits to begin with.)

Meanwhile, Ivy, who is 38 and is still officially a college professor, has recently gone on a Twitter tirade slagging off Selina Soule, one of the teenage female athletes who has sued in the CT case, disparaging her as "slow" and "sore loser" & laughing at her for not making the track team in college. (My hunch is that Soule's sports performance & mental wellbeing have probably been adversely affected by all the constant abuse she's gotten over the past couple of years. Being called a bigot, Nazi & hater is not good for anyone, nor are all the rape, death & battery threats girls & women who speak out publicly get.)

[–]valleyoftherogue 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This man is full of it. No matter how good women are athletically, they can never compete with out-of-shape, over-the-hill men in dresses like he is. That is because women are built completely different from men. Testosterone levels don't mean squat. You have size, weight, done density, heart size, hemoglobin differences, center of gravity differences, pelvic size and shape differences, leg bone differences and literally thousands and thousands of other physical differences between the sexes. Feminists knew this DECADES ago that women could never bridge the gap with men in athletic competition because of the biological realities of the two sexes. That is why separate categories based on sex were created, to give women a chance at fair competition.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I normally argue against bringing up DSDs in convos about transgenderism. However as the Caster Semenya case illustrates, in the area of athletics there is now alignment in the arguments for participation in women's sports made on behalf of XY DSD males with fully functioning testes, male levels of T & working androgen receptors and on behalf of trans-identified male athletes. Semenya & Semenya's team have long argued that the only thing that should determine eligiblity for participating in female sports is having legal identity documents stating one's sex is female or F.

Semenya's side argues it's a human rights violation for sports governing bodies to require XY DSD athletes like Semenya to take drugs to suppress the T that their testes make in order to compete in women's sports. Semenya's case is going to be head by the European Court of Human Rights in the summer, June I think.

Some trans activists, such as Dawn Ennis, the AGP trans-identified male editor of Outsports, have argued on Semenya's behalf in media appearances. Specifically, Ennis has said that when sports governing bodies require male athletes with male-only DSDs like Semenya to suppress their T by any means in order to be eligible to compete in female sports, it amounts to "legally mandated genital mutilation." Requiring athletes like Semenya to take T suppressing drugs specifically in order to compete has also been characterized as "forced pharmaceutical self-harm."

This of course totally contradicts many of the other claims that trans activists & Ennis specifically constantly make, namely that when trans-identified males take cross-sex hormones, it's not only completely harmless - it's necessary, beneficial & "life saving."

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I felt the same about DSD in general, but the whole Semenya saga and the "hyperandrogenism" was a joke from the let's go. It's been a while since I learn from him, but I think at the beginning the Media said he was a woman with adrenal hyperplasia (or maybe I just assumed the adrenal hyperplasia thing because that made more sense than the reality, really). Though, the instant I saw a picture of him I knew something was off.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I'm pretty up on the Semenya story, but I don't recall Semenya being portrayed as having CAH, a condition (or rather two conditions) I think most of the press over the course of Semenya's career have been too stupid to understand or portray. The media have usually portrayed Semenya as a "woman with hyperandrogenism" or a "woman with naturally high levels of testosterone" for some mysterious, nameless reason no one knows & no one understands.

Pictures of Semenya made you think something was off? You bigot! Here's a vid of Semenya when Semenya was on T suppressing drugs. I've never seen someone so clearly female displaying all the hallmarks of having been raised & socialized female, such as the ladylike way Caster sits & the bashful way Caster avoids bragging. Semenya even proves Semenya's libfeminist credentials by dissing female people, calling us "boring" & "weak" https://youtu.be/Hvg50P4FwTk

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I must have assumed the CAH thing after hearing he was a "woman with high levels of testosterone" then.

Well, I've just watched the video and I'm going to sound like a bigger "bigot" now. There is no way anyone would mistaken him for a woman. I mean, really, you would think he would try to mantain his own charade, but nope.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Women with CAH had high levels of testosterone before birth. After birth we just have virilization of body and sometimes more testosterone (I have, but it is due to mistreatment). We have excessive amounts of other androgenic hormones, but not too much.

We have high excessive amount of testosterone and other adrogenes if we are not treated properly or not treated at all, especially as infants (and it is deadly as well, previously mosly boys were surviving, as girls were getting same treatment as boys - and it was wrong one, so now doctors require extra tests to find are we male or female to save our lives - it was done with me, for example).

So if we are not treated or mistreated - we will have more testosterone, if we were treated well - everything is fine. I have issues, but they are connected with mistreatment - I was being medically "cured" from being a lesbian.

And it is women with LOAH who have higher testosterone levels even if treated well, but LOAH is like PCOS and is not intersex condition (even thought TRA are trying to make it one for decades now).

Here nice and neutral non-political medical article about my condition: https://www.yourhormones.info/endocrine-conditions/congenital-adrenal-hyperplasia/

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

LOAH is late-onset, right? Which is also known as NCAH, or non-classical adrenal hyperplasia, & accounts for the majority of cases of CAH. Whereas the other kind that's present at birth is called "classical CAH"?

Apart from early infancy, do girls & women with either (or any) kind of CAH ever have testosterone in the male range? Or is it high for women, but still in the female range? My impression is that the latter is the case. However, it's hard to find specific numbers. A lot of the research papers I've read just speak of "hyperandrogenism" - or if they do give hormone levels, I've found the numbers & their significance hard to make sense of coz of my own deficiencies in parsing the data. Plus, research papers that do give hormone levels seem always to be of women already being treated, so they don't tell what the levels were upon diagnosis.

Thanks for the info. Sorry for what you've been through. Malpractice & hideous abuses in medicine are far too common, especially in the case of female patients. But glad your CAH got properly diagnosed & treated.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Late-oneset is not CAH at all. I still don't know why it is called like that in English.

CAH is "congenital adrenal hypoplasia" - we are lacking adrenal hormone aldosterone and low production of cortisone because of mutation of one gene. It is often important to know sex of an infant as if not treated - female infant can die or live as disabled. If not treated - body will try to make cortisol but fail and produse adrenal hormones instead. If not treated long we will die due to inability of consuming salts.

LOAH starts appearing late in life - for girls after 15+ years, for boys can be undetected. It is happening because of mutation in same gene but they have enough aldosterone but lack cortisol and lacking other hormone. They live fine without treatment, just have more testosterone. In general it is very similar to PCOS but affects both males and females. You can't call it "intersex", as it is not congenital and may or may not develop in people with that gene mutation. As with CAH it more affecting females than males.

In USSR healthcare they are called completely differently and unrelated. We have different lack of hormones, different mutations, we need different treatment and have different complications. Salt-Wasting CAH women often have "secondary PCOS". It is not PCOS but have similar symptomes - I have one. In USSR practice it is unrelated to PCOS too. PCOS is reason of condition, while secondary PCOS is just symptome.

Salt-wasting CAH is the only "intersex" variant of it. We born with virilized bodies and very big clit. Obviously big clit is just big clit - functions and look like clit, have nothing to do with penis. LOAH and mild-CAH or CAH in males have little or no effect on kids until later in life.

Male kids with SW CAH can be untreated almost to month, while females will die. That's why I was screened if I have ovaries. USSR medicine was both most progressive and most stereotype-leaning. So I got lucky. They easily found my condition and treated me well...but then they found I am lesbian and that was a horror story of them trying to cure it.

Sorry if I am being to messy, I had hard day today.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Late-oneset is not CAH at all. I still don't know why it is called like that in English.

Sorry. Not trying to be disrespectful. I'm in the USA, & here all the sources lump these genetic conditions involving the adrenals together. For example, the USA's National Institutes of Health says

CAH refers to a group of genetic disorders that affect the adrenal glands.

And goes on to say that these disorders are caused by different genetic mutations. The NIH says the different forms of CAH manifest in different ways, causing different symptom profiles, but usually result in too little cortisol, too little aldosterone & an excess of androgens.

Classic CAH is more severe than the nonclassic form. It can be life threatening in newborns if it is not diagnosed. Classic CAH can be caused by either 21-hydroxylase or 11-hydroxylase deficiency.

Nonclassic CAH is sometimes called late-onset CAH. It is a milder form of the disorder that usually is diagnosed in late childhood or early adolescence. Sometimes, people have nonclassic CAH and never know it. This form of CAH is almost always caused by 21-hydroxylase deficiency.

https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/cah/conditioninfo

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I know this. It is just different health issues, with different treatment, different symptomes, different comllications and different cause. It just two different adrenal deficiencies. It is like calling all heart diseases as congenital heart defects. Like I have 21-h mutation, but it is different one that have people with LOAH - as they have 21-h mutated too, but in different way than people with CAH. And main lacking hormone is different - we have some cortisol but have no aldosterone. While people with LOAH have no corrisol but some (or full) aldosterone. I am taking those hormones (and currently contraceptives due to secondary PCOS) whole my life.

LOAH is not congenital, as it is not visible at birth and their mutation may or may not cause LOAH. People with LOAH born completely normal male and female looking. That's why it is stupid to call it intersex condition - or if add LOAH - then PCOS should be added too, as PCOS has genetic pre-disposition too.

All 40 intersex conditions are happening in around 0.18% of population, so each one is around 0.004% on average. While LOAH is diagnosed in 1.55% of population. So it is like elephant in the room.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Semenya has 5ard, not CAH. Males with CAH would look perfectly male, maybe shorter. Females with CAH can look more masculine, our testosterone levels are lower than ones of transmen, but often slighltly higher than norm, and we still can get pregnant, etc.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes the court documents show that Semenya has 5-ARD. Significantly, though 5-ARD occurs in both males & females, it only affects sex development in males. Most females with 5-ARD will go their whole lives unaware they have it, because it seems to have no affect on females in any way. Which just goes to show that the claim that Semenya is "a female athlete with a DSD" is a total crock; Semenya has a DSD that only males can have. The condition itself confirms that Semenya is male. Apart from the appearance of their genitals, & absence of facial & body hair, males with 5-ARD are otherwise unaffected & have good health. Since their testes produce normal sperm, some have fathered children - though usually after medical intervention or with some assistance.

[–]valleyoftherogue 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is all speculation of what he has, and I am sick and tired of the lies being told about Semenya claiming this MAN is a "woman" of any type. He was outed as 46 XY with DSD, and the DSD means nothing. It is the Y chromosome that makes him a cheater.

[–]valleyoftherogue 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If DSD people have a Y chromosome, they have no business competing against women. They are MEN. Caster Semenya is a fraud who was outed as a fraud several years ago. He is a MAN, not an "intersex" woman, but a MAN. He is a cheater. Women should walk out of any competition he is entered.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not quite as simple as just the Y chromosome. The key factor in determining sex development is the the SRY gene on the Y chromosome. If a person has this gene, he will develop as a male. Sometimes, albeit extremely rarely, the SRY gene can end up on an X chromosome in someone XX. This is called "XX male" or de la Chapelle syndrome. But AFAIK, persons with this DSD have not tried to compete in female sports, and are not really an issue in this area.

A key issue in determining eligibility for the female category of sports is whether XY athletes with functioning testes & male levels of testosterone are sensitive to androgens in male typical ways & thus are able to utilize T in the ways males customarily do - meaning high T during the puberty of infancy and adolescence masculinizes them. In persons who are completely insensitive to androgens, the body aromatizes (converts) testosterone to estrogen and they develop a female phenotype. After considerable litigation, the international sports governing bodies have been forced to allow XY athletes with CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity to compete in female sports, and the current rules regarding testosterone levels in 46, XY DSD athletes do not apply to athletes with CAIS. A much more contested area is what to do about XY athletes with PAIS & MAIS, partial and mild androgen insensitivity.

Still, the biggest concern of regulators in elite international sports is with just a few XY DSDs, mainly 5-ARD and a couple of other similar ones in which the athletes are fully sensitive to the androgens their testes pump out. According to the IAAF/WA, the XY athletes with these DSDs are by all measures healthy biological males whose only difference to other males is the appearance of their genitals.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (40 children)

Handicapping based on age/height/weight/past-performance is one way to include trans people in competitive sport. Masters games already has classes. Current testosterone levels are only one part of a much broader picture.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But in which sex category would you include them?

Even with such handicapping, there's no way to justify putting males into female sports. Males & females of the same height, weight & age will in no way be on an equal level in contests of physical skill, strength & speed. There are thousands of differences between male & female bodies. For example, from birth, there are notable differences in male & female lung cells, & lung function. During the puberty of adolescence, males hearts - which from infancy will already be 8% larger & stronger - become on average 33% larger & more powerful than female hearts even when height, weight & age are the same.

These differences don't mean that female are inferior to males. They just go to show that each sex has evolved to have different features because of the different reproductive roles each one plays. Many female internal organs are not only smaller than male organs, they have the ability to move out of the way in order to accommodate a growing uterus containing a fetus. Similarly, female kidneys function differently to male kidneys because female kidneys have evolved to handle & cleanse the much larger amount of bodily fluid that pregnancy entails.

Male people who "identify as" the opposite sex have always been able to compete/participate in sports with other males. Male athletes are the ones who need to budge up & be accepting & "inclusive" of athletes who of their sex yet "identify as" the opposite sex.

As for female people who "identify as" the opposite sex - if they aren't taking T, then they belong in female sports. If they are on T, then sports authorities would be justified in excluding them for violating doping rules, though arguments can be made for "including" them in the male/open category.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sport is a primarily a social activity. Handicapping based on past performance seems like a practical way that trans women can be included in competitive women's sport. If trans women are competing against cis women with the same level of ability, how is that unfair?

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think everyone view as mainly a social activity. Proffessional athletes surely would disagre, for example. But anyway, how could you prove what level of handicap is too little or too much? It seems it'd be quite difficult to come to an agreement that will satisfy all parties. There is no lack of trans males who protest the request to lower their levels of testosterone. So, why would they agree to even more handicaps?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (34 children)

Current testosterone levels are only one part of a much broader picture.

Indeed, the entire body of a person should be taken into consideration, not just their hormones. Which is why males shouldn' t compete in women' s leagues, because even if, for some miracle, their testosterone results ok for women' s leagues, the rest of their body isn' t.

And that' s without even taking into consideration just how fucking gross it is that women, who have fought to have their leagues because their SEX was discriminated against in this specific area, have to be told that they are supposed to make room for males (who have been able to compete in official sport leagues since the beginning of civilization) and see them stealing their achievements, records, trophies and glory because "it' s the nice thing to do".

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems so many people are not aware of the extent of the discrimination agains the female sex that occurred in sports (& various other areas).

I graduated from a US public HS in June 1972, the month the USA's federal Title IX was passed. In my school district when I was growing up, only boys got PE in lower & middle school. Girls didn't get PE until 9th or 10th grade - & then our PE classes were nothing like the boys' classes. We were taught to do exercise to help us keep our figures. Boys learned how to play sports & to build strength & develop sports skills. Although my HS gave both sexes the chance to excel academically (lots of AP courses), there were no school sports for girls at all. The boys had football, basketball, soccer, lacrosse, track & field, cross country, wrestling, etc - & girls got zilch.

My brother was a big star in school sports, & as a result he had so many opportunities I never had - such as traveling to other schools for games/meets, going to state & regional events, attending sports training camps. In the process, he met & developed friendships with a wider array of peers, getting to know kids of different races & socioeconomic backgrounds. Moreover, he got tons of awards & was frequently feted at banquets & ceremonies, things that give adolescent self-esteem a real boost. Finally, he went to university on a full athletic scholarship that paid his entire way. As a result, he was able to use the money our parents would have spent on his college education to get a graduate degree.

I actually did a lot of sports as a kid & teenager, but they were all outside & apart from school - through clubs, municipal recreation centers, civic & religious organizations & just independently. Back then, sports governing bodies in the US explicitly banned girls & women from participating in certain sports, such as longer distance running & of course marathons. (Moreover, running was difficult coz sports bras & female running attire hadn't yet been invented - we had to wear boys & men's clothing & jerry-rig ways to keep our breasts from bouncing.)

In the US, the ban on allowing women in distance running events & marathons wasn't lifted until 1972, the same year Title IX passed. Plus, Title IX didn't change things overnight. States & schools were given six years to implement it - but for all practical purposes, the implementation period lasted a full decade. Female scholastic sports didn't begin to come anywhere near being on an equal footing with male scholastic sports until well into the 1980s. Now after a mere 40 years of somewhat fair play in school sports, girls & women are being expected to step aside coz a bunch of selfish males who caricature us & fetishize us want to horn in & insist that female sports is for them. It's injustice in the name of "inclusivity" & pure misogyny disguised as "equality."

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (32 children)

because even if, for some miracle, their testosterone results ok for women' s leagues,

sorry, not getting involved in the conversation because I know nothing about sports nor do I care much about them, but... you realize that any TW on hormones will have T levels comparable to women, right? Like it's not a miraculous thing, it just... is.

edit for reference: my last blood test put me at .2 ng/ml, which would be approaching the low end of normal female levels

second edit: Should say any TW on a proper amount of hormones, not some weird 50 mg spiro 1 mg estro crap.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Lmao, no, maximum testosterone for female athletes is around 2.7 nanomoles per litre, while average male athletes on blockers and estrogene have around 9-12 if they are lucky enough. It is really hard to achieve required "maximum of 5" (and even previous maximum of 10) that is set on olympics for many transwomen who are doing sports, as training is raising testosterone levels.

And anyways, testosterone is just minor part of male body advantages over female body, the whole body structure is very different. Testosterone is just one of 20 differences (lunghs size, heart size, amount of red cells, metabolism, muscle tissues different, skeletal structure, bone density, etc). Even if take away testosterone levels - previous effects of testosterone would not go away, and as well the other 19 differences would stay.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

.2 ng/ml is .7 nmol/l

wowee would you look at that it's way lower.

Honestly literally 0 idea where you got 12 on average for a TW on blockers and estrogen, considering that's still above the bottom of normal male levels.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

sorry, not getting involved in the conversation because I know nothing about sports nor do I care much about them, but... you realize that any TW on hormones will have T levels comparable to women, right? Like it's not a miraculous thing, it just... is.

So if you don't know anything nor do you care, why throw your two cents in?

but... you realize that any TW on hormones will have T levels comparable to women, right? Like it's not a miraculous thing, it just... is.

That claim just proves that you really weren't kidding when you said you know nothing about this topic. Current levels of circulating testosterone are not the issue when it comes to trans-identified males in women's sports. Reducing T levels even for years does not take away male sports advantage. Women are not simply males with less T. To suggest we are is profoundly insulting to the half of the human race who are female, including your own mum.

Moreover, pro-trans physicians who specialize in trans medicine have published research showing that even when on androgen blockers & high dose estradiol, 75% of TW are unable to get their T low enough that it's in the female range &/or to keep it there. A study of the actual lab results - not the claims - of 98 anonymized TW treated at the transgender clinic at Boston Medical Center published in Endocrine Practice in 2018 found that

Only a quarter of transgender women taking a regimen of spironolactone and estrogens were able to lower testosterone levels within the usual female physiologic range. Another quarter could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time, while one quarter was unable to achieve any significant suppression.

https://www.bumc.bu.edu/busm/2018/02/20/medicine-alone-does-not-completely-suppress-testosterone-levels-among-transgender-women/

Conclusion: Among a cohort of transgender women treated with spironolactone and estrogen, the highest suppressing quartile could reliably achieve testosterone levels in the female range at virtually all times. The second highest suppressing quartile could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time. One quartile was unable to achieve any significant suppression.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29144822/

https://www.endocrinepractice.org/article/S1530-891X(20)35396-9/fulltext

But even if trans-identified males can reduce their testosterone to female levels, it doesn't remove the enormous sporting advantages that come from having gone through male puberty - in the mini-puberty of infancy & the longer puberty of adolescence. The only advantage they lose is their higher hemoglobin. In terms of muscle mass & strength, lowering T even for years has a negligible effect. As the World Rugby research, Ross Tucker, Emma Hilton & Tommy Lundgren & many others have shown. Now even TRA Joanna Harper - whose phony "research" was the basis for the IOC deciding in 2015 that males who identify as women should be allowed in female sports so long as they reduce their circulating T to 10 nmol/L - published a paper earlier this year admitting this. In fact, Ross Tucker said that the research done for World Rugby indicated that if trans-identified males participate in athletic training after commencing transition-related hormone treatment, they might actually gain in sports advantage over women.

[–]Greensquidsphone 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (12 children)

Some crazy links, Mark. I know you didn't do more than glance at them, though, because they're literally all the exact same study. A study of 98 participants, all of which are from the exact same clinic and so without a doubt all have the exact same doctor. Which I conveniently can't critique the data of because the single study you gave me (3 times in a row) has no full text available nor do they list any useful numbers in their abstract. And as i've stated, with regards to sports, I don't disagree. My issue is with junk science claims made in a topic it's clear they know nothing about. I really wonder if you actually read the things you link beyond a cursory peek.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I provided three different ways to access the same paper coz not everyone is able to access the same sites/resources, & because each one of these three framed & phrased the findings of that paper in the same way I never suggested or intimated that I was citing three separate sources.

But at least I provide links. You just make assertions without any substantiation. A paper from a major medical center using the lab tests results for 98 actual medical patients certainly doesn't constitute the last word, but it's more credible than a lone person repeatedly insisting this is how it is because I say so.

[–]Greensquidsphone 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (10 children)

One of the links is just a rephrasing of thr abstract, and the other two are exactly the same.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15532739.2017.1290566

Here's a study of 86 patients on low cypro doses with comparable female t levels. I think that link has full access but if it doesn't let me know and I'll find it when I have access to my computer.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

Thanks, Greensquidsphone. Very interesting.

But sorry, I have the feeling that the medical journal Endocrine Practice might be a little less biased than the International Journal of Transgenderism, which is owned & operated by WPATH.

WPATH's entire purpose is to promote & normalize transgenderism and to get more children to identify as trans and undergo life-altering medical interventions that will stunt their development, leave them sterile & sexually dysfunctional, and make them lifelong "trans medicine" patients reliant on Big Pharma drugs until the end of their days on earth. Coz medicalizing "gender identity" in kids is big money.

WPATH functions more as a political lobbying organization, gender-ideology propaganda machine and child grooming outfit than anything else. WPATH actively promotes subjecting children and adolescents to damaging medical interventions like puberty blockers and CSH and is known to have told a lot of outright lies. WPATH is also associated with with such discredited, unethical characters and organizations as Susie Green/Mermaids, Helen Webberly/Gender GP, Gender Spectrum (of the infamous gender jelly babies chart) and Jack Turban.

As its website shows, WPATH campaigns for a slew of odious policies that are harmful to women and to children. Including ending female-only sports (coz all that matters to WPATH is what "trans girls" want) and overturning the UK High Court's ruling in Bell v Tavistock that put the brakes on the irresponsible, injurious practice of putting confused, mentally unwell often autistic children on puberty blockers & CSHs rather than help them sort out their issues, come to terms with their bodies and develop healthy self-concepts and self-esteem.

The International Journal of Transgenderism , together with its partner organization the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), provides an intellectual forum that stimulates new ways of thinking and understanding various aspects of sex, gender identity, and gender expression for academics, practitioners, policy makers, and the general population.

https://duotrope.com/listing/20400/international-journal-transgenderism

[–][deleted]  (8 children)

[removed]

    [–]BiologyIsReal[S,M] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    This is a debate sub. She is allowed to make all the GC talking points she want as long she is following the rules, just like you can do the same with your views. Try to engage with other users' arguments rather than jump to rude comments and "threatening" not to read/reply what they say like you often do.

    Edit: I was too lenient the first time around, so I'm deleting this comment now.

    [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

    This doesn' t happen to every trans natal male, and even if it did, the point still stands: hormones are important, but they shouldn' t be the ultimate test for letting males in women' s sport leagues.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

    Yes, the effects of testosterone on the body are permanent with bone structure and stuff. Males who transition should give up competitive sports. I don’t know why people push for it. I feel like it can’t be fair any other way.

    [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

    I don' t necessarily think they should give up on sports, I just think that there should be leagues made specifically for them. I have zero problems with them competing against each other, just get someone to make the rules and what should be considered the limits and go for it.

    I just don' t think that males should compete against females as a standard, nor I think that females on testosterone should compete against other females (or males, to be honest).

    [–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    I just think that there should be leagues made specifically for them.

    But why separate sports leagues for people based on the way they prefer to dress, wear their hair, groom, modify their appearance & think of themselves? There's no rational basis for doing something so extreme & costly. Plus, instead of being "inclusive," this would "other" & ghettoize these athletes. It's time for the world of male athletics to budge up & help trans-identified males feel at home & safe in the sports - and locker rooms - of their own sex. Otherwise, we'll end up with separate sports leagues based on looks, adherence to sex stereotypes, people's identity claims and all factors that shouldn't affect sports eligibility in sports, like skin color and religion. This will lead to more divisiveness & segregation - and to more deeply-entrenched sexism, homophobia, racism & so on.

    Women have always accepted that in female sports and locker rooms, the athletes will run the gamut from "feminine" looking "girly girls" to stone butches, with most of us somewhere in between. Why can't boys & men do the same? Why can't males be inclusive & kind to all types of males? Men need to look within themselves & figure out why they keep trying to banish males they see as "feminine," "sissies" & "unmanly" from the male category.

    I just think that there should be leagues made specifically for them

    Plus, who's gonna do the making here? Who's gonna put in the effort? If trans people want separate sports - which they don't - they've gotta step up to the plate & start lobbying for them. And they've gotta get down in the trenches & start building them. That's what women had to do. The sports, spaces & services women have today didn't suddenly fall out of the sky once laws were changed to make it illegal to discriminate against women based on our sex. Girls & women's sports, spaces & services came about coz generations of women put in the hard work to create & build them.

    [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I mean, I agree with what you are saying, I was just making the point that if sports and gender identity were really that important for them, then making leagues specifically for them would be a good way to solve the problem. I am sure that there are millionaires willing to spend money and time over this if it were something they wanted.

    Of course, I don' t believe that is what the issue is in the least: much like sex segregated spaces, it seems like it' s more about not letting women alone than anything else. If you read about the coverage for the bans on trans natal males in women' s leagues, it almost sounds like they are complaining for not being allowed to play sports, but of course we know that they are 100% able to do that, they just can' t do it in women' s leagues. So yeah, the problem isn' t that they want to play sports, it' s that they want to play against women.

    [–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yes, this is ultimately about validation. And they crave it so much that they don't realise the sport issue will be their downfall. By that I mean, this is something that they can't hide. If transactivists have it their way, everyone will see through all their lies.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    That’s a good thought! I’d be totally fine with them doing that. The competing with females is a problem though and I don’t like the way it’s putting trans people in the culture war. I feel like it could all be avoided just by being reasonable.

    [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Without a doubt.

    Most of the issues regarding this topic could be solved by being reasonable.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Among the "and stuff" is the fact that males have considerably larger, more powerful & efficient lungs and hearts. In comparably sized males and females, the males' hearts will be 28-35% larger. Males have much greater lung capacity too, which is one of the many reasons that in persons with cystic fibrosis given the same level of medical care, the males typically have better health & live longer than the females do. This has been consistently observed & documented since CF as a distinct disease was first identified & described in the 1950s.

    [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

    but they shouldn' t be the ultimate test for letting males in women' s sport leagues.

    not saying they are. Honestly my opinion on sports is: tough, don't compete if you are trans

    That said it's wildly inaccurate misinformation on the subject I DO know about, I'm not letting it go unsaid.

    [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    As I already said, this doesn' t happen to every trans natal male. It happened to you and it happens to others, great. It doesn' t happen to everyone. You say it yourself that different treatments can be considered crap and are going to give different results.

    [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

    Sure but don't act like a TW getting more than literally nothing in hormones is a 'miracle'. I've said it before elsewhere but I help people with their levels on twitter, TW above like 2-3 ng/ml are a massive outlier. Even with bad hormone intake it's usually like .5-1.

    edit: in hindsight I will admit that anyone who cares enough to pay attention to their levels is probably taking treatment more seriously, so they'd be slightly skewed to more normal levels than normal, though I doubt that'd change much.

    [–]BiologyIsReal[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    Are you a doctor or a pharmacist? Because if not, I think giving medical advice to strangers on the internet it's pretty irresponsible.

    [–]Greensquidsphone 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

    Thank you for your 2 cents. When doctors do more than a 5 second Google search of trans care to come up with their absolutely garbage ideas for treatment I'll stop being so irresponsible.

    [–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    And your solution is playing doctor and promoting self-medication?

    [–]BiologyIsReal[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Trans people are already included in competitive sports. They are only being asked to play according to their sex and not gender identity because sex is what matters in sports.

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I've been taking intensive self defense classes for almost two years now, in a small class with two females and two males (including me, a transsexual), with instructors of both sexes. This is the closest thing to a sport I've ever done, so it's hard to compare my physical performance pre-transition to now, but due to congenital hypogonadism and possibly other genetic factors, my testosterone levels have always been low and my estrogen levels always high, and my body is small-framed for my height even by female standards and I've never really been able to develop much muscle (I was always rubbish in gym class) but even still I find I can exert more power with less need for leverage or using my hips to strike than the women in my class. One of them is better at sparring than I am, and the female instructor kicks my butt every time, but I can actually hold my own more against the women whereas I don't even come close to being able to match the men. However, the only advantage I have when sparring with the women is the result of my male body--and it is a definite advantage. It doesn't mean that they can't mop the floor with me (they often do) but it's an advantage I have all the same that would make it unfair for me to ever compete in a women's league, despite my size and androgen-deficient physiology. I'm taller than most women, and I've never sparred with a woman my height, but I still suspect I would have an advantage.

    These classes aren't a sport, so I didn't even think of this, but we do sparring for practice which I totally overlooked! I know this was a pretty personal and subjective anecdote, but I thought maybe it would be helpful in understanding how past performance and height and weight and age still would be overshadowed by other physiological differences that at their core are inseparable from one's sex.

    [–]worried19 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

    There are some trans competitors in male sports. I don't think any of them are breaking records against natal males, but at least a few are competitive.

    https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/stories/news/detail/transgender-boxer-pat-manuel-makes-history-with-first-professional-win

    Testosterone can do a lot. It can probably give natal females the upper body strength to be competitive in some sports. Of course it can't change anything about height or limb length or lung capacity, so I would imagine there are plenty of sports where trans men still have a huge disadvantage.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

    So one trans-identified female won one boxing match. I'm not a fan of boxing, but I know a bit about the history & customs of boxing precisely because it's one of the sports most notorious for corruption, cheating, grandstanding, bullshitting, bragging, scandals & larger than life personalities. And coz boxing has always been the most macho of sports that celebrates male aggression & cunning as well as one strongly tied to seediness, celebrity, organized crime, big money, betting, misogyny & civil rights. The bios & struggles of boxers like James Braddock, Jake LaMotta, Muhammed Ali (Cassius Clay), Joe Louis & Mike Tyson are fascinating, as are the stories of the rivalries & friendships between fighters like Louis & Max Schmeling. Although I've never been to a boxing match, I've watched a lot of films about bozing that have left an indelible impression on me: Joe and Max, Ali, Raging Bull, The Fighter, Cinderella Man, Million Dollar Baby & Muhammad Ali's Greatest Fight - about Ali's suit against the US government for not recognizing that he had grounds to be a conscientious objector to military service based on his Islamic religious convictions, which was finally decided in his favor. Even though Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist, I found the spoken memoir about his life that Spike Lee directed, Mike Tyson: Undisputed Truth, to be very moving.

    But I've gotten off topic. Against the backdrop of what I know about the boxing world, sorry, I have to say I don't find a single win in one solitary bout credible evidence that trans-identified females are competitive with males. It's long been a tradition for promoters to rig fights & pay boxers to lose. Some boxers actually do nothing but lose bouts so as to provide talented, promising up-and-coming boxing prospects with stellar records.

    [–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Opponent knew he is fighting female, and it is some low rank random boxer in a super-light category, where healthy males almost never can get, opponent was 170 cm and 47 kg weight (I am heavier!), so strongly underweight. While Pat Manuel was an olympic level boxer in female category. Hugo Aguilar was Pat's opponent (this one https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/204409-hugo-aguilar ), Hugo's achievements are so far - 1 win with KO in semi-professional match and 8 loses in professional matches. Interesting that this makes him ranked in top 60% of boxers in the category of super-light, as most of them seems to be losing to anyone except lighter men than themselves, and in bottom 10% of all categories. So it was "one of worst males fighting decently good female". And still it was not KO and fight was not complete destruction of Hugo, like it was in his fights against male opponents.

    So I would not consider Pat's winning as anything special or paid (thought, I would not be surprised in corruption, as this fight seems to be promoted and making headlines months before the fight as "possible first transgender win", dooming Hugo to lose before the fight). And most likely a lot of olympic level female boxers would win against Hugo.

    At same time, it was the only professional Pat's match and Pat never had a match since.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Thanks for this detailed information! It really fleshes out the picture.

    [–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I'm not a fan of boxing either. I can appreciate it as an art form, I guess, but I don't particularly enjoy watching people beat each other up. Violence doesn't bother me in moderation, but I wouldn't say I like it. I prefer team sports like basketball and football.

    [–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    Pat's story is same as story of that other transman in swimming and another one in marathon. They won there against some lowest ranked males, but their time in winning was still not enough to even qualify to a semi-professional sports, marathoner had time 10 hours more than minimal needed to participate in serious events, and swimmer was 5% slower than qualification time.

    Similar story is here, Pat's opponent is super-light weight category fighter, with hegith 170 cm (5'7") and weight 47 kg (100 pounds), and boxing record of 1 win in semi-professional match and 8 loses in professional matches. And it is the only Pat's match as well.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    By the "marathoner," do you mean Chris Mosier? I don't think Mosier competed in the running event most people think of when we hear the word "marathon." Post-"transition," Mosier competed in a duathlon, which consisted of

    a 5-kilometer run, a 20.55-kilometer cycling segment and a final 2.5-kilometer run to the finish

    https://www.espn.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/15976460/chris-mosier-becomes-first-known-transgender-athlete-compete-world-duathlon-championsh

    Afterwards, Mosier switched to distance race walking & competed in the trials for the US Oympics Men’s 50km Race Walk, an event without many participants - & didn't finish due to injury.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Afterwards, Mosier switched to distance race walking & competed in the trials for the US Oympics Men’s 50km Race Walk, an event without many participants - & didn't finish due to injury.

    I feel like I’ve read about a number of trans female athletes getting injured. I guess I’m wondering if it’s like less safe to exert yourself on T if you bone structure didn’t develop with a typical male puberty. During puberty, boys bones develop differently because of testosterone. If a female begins takes testosterone later, their bones have already developed without it and can’t really change (our bones fuse and stop growing eventually). It seems like something transmen who went through a female puberty should think about if true (and I don’t know why it wouldn’t be).

    [–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Exogenous T is hard on even male bodies. On female bodies, the impact of taking exogenous T is horrendous. It's why Buck Angel looks at least 20 years older than Buck's chronological age. To me, Chris Mosier looks much older than 40-41, too. Also, I noticed in looking at pictures of Mosier that when seen in profile, it's unmistakable from the shape of Mosier's head that this a female person. I don't say that to be mean. It's just that nature has arranged things so that there are tons of tiny aspects of human appearance that give away our sex. And whether through evolution or just through socialization, women tend to be very good about picking up on the tells.

    BTW, when I saw that you wrote

    trans female athletes

    I thought at first you meant male athletes & had to reread a couple of times to get it straight. Coz in all the press coverage lately about the push in US state to pass laws protecting girls & women's sports from incursion by males using gender identity claims, the male athletes are constantly referred to as "trans female athletes" or as just "trans females."

    Same thing has happened in the US federal Title IX court case challenging the CT rules that allowed Andraya Yearwood & Terry Miller to invade & clean up in girls's HS track. The judge earlier ruled that the lawyers for the female athletes are not allowed to refer to the male athletes as male - they have to be called "trans female athletes" or "trans females" instead. Then all the press chimed in that it was "cruel" & "inhumane" & "disrespectful" to refer to or ever mention the sex of these athletes all. Which as I'm sure you can see, basically means the lawyers for the girls in the case aren't allowed to argue their case or properly represent their clients. And which sticks in the craw of those who closely follow this case because in the girls' track meets where Terry Miller dominated, Miller always made a point of wearing skin-tight attire sure to show off a very prominent dick bulge.

    The press calling persons like Miller "trans female athletes" is all part of the QT mission creep that is so distressing & insulting to so many of us boring, bog standard female people. First some males started calling themselves girls & women. But after a while, that wasn't enough. Now TRAs say they have to take the word female too.

    [–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I don't remember the name, sorry, but sounds familiar. Either it is the one, or such stories were happening more than once, which is not surprising - transmen are just females on steroids, and females on steroids never were close to males in sports.

    [–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yeah, boxing is probably one of the worst sports for trans men hoping to compete with natal males.

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    I've wondered about this, too. It's evident that total sex development has a greater impact on the body than do hormones alone, at least at crucial times. I'm curious if most non-trans women and men would compete with the opposite sex only if everything about their body were physiologically the same except for reproductive genitalia, although it almost sounds like this doesn't exist judging from what others are saying here and from my own limited understanding. It's almost indicative that, yes, it really is impossible to change total physiological functioning (not just reproductive) to the opposite sex. There just doesn't seem to be a totally fair way to incorporate trans athletes. Divisions/leagues/teams/games designed specifically to accommodate trans people would probably be the best compromise to allow for trans peoples' participation, but maybe it would be a better idea to use the snafu as impetus to further justify and promote better treatments, research, preventative medicine and cures to really improve quality of life overall. Sorry, this was a lot of speculation and possibly not very helpful.

    [–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

    That is the problem, though, women and men are not phisiological the same even if we exclude the reproductive system of our analysis. Like other users had said, it's not only about current levels of testosterone but PAST levels of testosterone and the fact we're genetically different (i.e. males are XY and females XX). Surgeries and exogenus hormones won't change that. Besides sports, medicine is other area where those differences are notable, like for example the different way women and men are affected by COVID. I've not finished reading it yet, but so far I think this review gives a good summary of sex development and sex differences (certain phrases like "assigned sex at birth" notwithstanding...). It may be too academic, though.

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Thank you so much for sharing that review, I'm interested and curious enough to throw on a mortarboard along with my fanciest pair of glasses and give this a read! 🙂

    [–]BiologyIsReal[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Well, I learned I new word today! I've to look up what mortarboard meant because I figured out mortars didn't fit in this context. I never knew how those hats were called, nor even in my natal tongue.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    I actually couldn't remember if it was just "mortar" or "mortarboard" so I had to look it up too 😂 Language is a hoot!

    [–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    The effects of gonadal hormones have been studied much more than sex chromosome effects, for several reasons. The theory of sexual differentiation emerging from research in the 20th century pointed almost exclusively to gonadal hormones as the proximate sex-biasing factors, so any program of research on sex differences focused first on hormones. This focus was usually rewarded, because most sex differences were found to be influenced by sex hormones. The resulting large literature on sex hormone effects gives the impression that hormones dominate as the causes of sex differences. That inference may be true, but has not been tested rigorously...

    Especially since 1990, there has been increasing realization that sex differences occur throughout the body. Tissues not specialized for reproduction, including non-reproductive areas of the brain, function differently in females and males, and are differentially affected by disease in the two sexes (US National Institute of Medicine Committee on Understanding the Biology of Sex and Gender Disorders, 2001). In some cases, sex differences in disease can be dramatic...

    Which is illustrated by the dramatically different ways COVID and the vaccines for it affect the two sexes.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5369239/#R68

    Some more passages snipped from the same paper that are relevant:

    Before 1980, investigators in this field had predominantly studied the most obvious phenotypic sex differences, in the gonads, external and internal genitalia, and behavior (Arnold, 2002). These investigators viewed themselves largely as reproductive biologists and psychologists, because of the function of the tissues or behaviors they studied. Earlier in the 20th century, investigators had asked the fundamental question whether phenotypic sex differences were dictated by the sex chromosomes or by gonadal secretions. For the birds and mammals, the answer was that sexual development outside the gonads was controlled by gonadal hormones. Experiments showed that changing the gonadal hormones could profoundly change the sexual phenotype of reproductive tissues other than the gonads. For example, it was possible to give male hormones to genetic (XX) females to make the genitals or behavior similar to that of a male, or to take male hormones away from genetic (XY) males to make their genitals and behavior like that of females (Jost, 1947)...

    Several developments have contributed to a revision of the old dogma. One is that the revolution in molecular genetics has given us a much better understanding of the genes on the sex chromosomes, their evolution, and function (Deng et al., 2014; Graves, 2006; Lahn and Page, 1997; Skaletsky et al., 2003). This new knowledge shows that the inherent inequality of X and Y genetic material in the two sexes has effects throughout the body, not just on the gonads. A second major influence has been that various experimental findings have uncovered cases in which the old theory was inadequate...

    At the same time as these developments, the study of sex differences was expanding beyond tissues related to reproduction.

    For example, dramatic differences have been found in the ways the kidneys, hearts and respiratory systems function in male and female humans and other animals.

    In the past, scientists studied male physiology and applied findings to women, so studies such as the new USC research underscore the importance of biological differences.“Profound differences distinguish the male and female kidney,” McMahon said. “The kidney is the body’s regulator of fluid balance, and since women bear offspring, there are likely critical differences required in the mother for the benefit of both mother and offspring.”

    The findings can benefit human health by improving an understanding of genetic programs that may influence drug trials, drug toxicity and cellular reprogramming, he said.

    https://www.technologynetworks.com/cell-science/news/stem-cell-scientists-reveal-key-differences-in-male-and-female-kidneys-326828

    Over a period of 10 years, the weight of the heart’s main pumping chamber — the left ventricle — increased by an average of 8 grams in men and decreased by 1.6 grams in women. The heart’s filling capacity — marked by the amount of blood the left ventricle can holds between heartbeats — declined in both sexes but more precipitously so in women, by about 13 milliliters, compared with just under 10 milliliters in men. The differences in size, volume and pumping ability occurred independently of other risk factors known to affect heart muscle size and performance, including body weight, blood pressure, cholesterol levels, exercise levels and smoking.

    https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/male_and_female_hearts_dont_grow_old_the_same_way

    There's a ton of research out there documenting myriad differences in male & female humans' lung tissues & function as well as in the rest of the respiratory system.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5980468/

    Fleurista, since I needled you the other day about a comment you made about taking a breath upon awakening as "feminine," you might be interested to know that it's been shown that there are documented differences in the way male & female humans breathe. These are another reason why males shouldn't be competing in female sports, coz they give an advantage that isn't done away with or diminished by altering hormone profiles and undergoing even the most extreme transition-related body modifications such as genital surgery.

    http://www.luzimarteixeira.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/mecanismos_respiracao_no_esforco_2008.pdf

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    I wrote a little about this in another comment, but it just occurred to me that I've actually been experiencing and learning the differences between male and female ability and physiology in my self defense classes, I just didn't think to apply that here since it's not a competitive sport, but we do spar as well. Despite my smaller size and hypoandrogenism, it still takes me notably less effort to generate power than the women in my class, even though they can still strike just as hard and I often get beat up by them in sparring. So my maleness still gives me an advantage, even with my developmental abnormalities.

    The lung tissue and breathing capacity difference is actually quite fascinating, I always wondered why I could play the flute more loudly than the girls in school, but that makes a lot of sense now.

    Thank you for copying and sharing this info, the changes at the molecular level I'm quite intrigued by and now I'd like to read a bit more about that!

    [–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I always wondered why I could play the flute more loudly than the girls in school, but that makes a lot of sense now.

    If you want to see sex stereotypes dominate and biological sex differences totally ignored, google "sex differences wind instruments." All you'll get is articles about "gender" that say males have tended to play X and females Y solely because of sex role expectations - such as women generally don't play brass horns coz it's unladylike, not pretty and deforms their lips so they're not "kissable."

    https://www.bsomusic.org/stories/boys-play-trumpet-and-girls-play-flute-but-why.aspx

    Same goes for discussions of sex differences in choice of musical instruments more generally:

    https://www.wqxr.org/story/stereotyping-instruments-why-we-still-think-some-are-for-boys-others-for-girls/

    These sorts of reports are maddening to me coz they are so myopic. Yes, the sex stereotypes that constitute "gender" are important to consider and certainly play a huge role, but they don't tell the whole story. For example, the standard take on sex differences in wind instrument choice nowadays completely overlooks the role of such biological, physical matters as all the differences in male & female lung capacity & respiratory function - as well as the fact that women have much less upper body strength then men make it much more difficult for us to hold a sax or set of bagpipes whilst standing & playing for extended periods of time. Moreover, our relative lack of upper body strength plus our generally smaller size also makes it much harder for girls & women to lug around large instruments like tubas (and cellos too).

    Moreover, there is virtually no information out there other than anecdotal reports about how playing wind instruments is affected by pregnancy. Or about the impact that playing any instrument that's close to the belly - as in the case of a sax, guitar, piano or other keyboard - might have on a developing fetus. Which just goes to show how little inquiry & scientific research there is about matters having to do with exclusively female physiology and female-specific health concerns.

    On a more general note, I am glad the info & links/sources I have shared have been useful & interesting to you. I am also glad that you realize that many of us who are critical of the claims of gender identity ideology and skeptical about transgenderism are not driven by animus or intolerance, but have come to our views coz we have a fair bit of info/knowledge not just about sexual politics, but about human sex development, biological sex differences, psychology, child development, how humans form our sense of self and self-worth, & how human sexuality & relationships work. This knowledge - plus our commitment to & concern about women's rights, gay & lesbian rights and acceptance, and the social acceptance & wellbeing of people who don't conform to rigid sex stereotypes in surface "presentation" or personality traits - makes us think that the current craze for gender ideology & "transitioning" is not good for children, women, homosexuals, "GNC" people and society in general, and is also harming & misleading the vast majority of the kids & adults who now "identify as" the opposite sex, claim they have no sex, or believe they can ping-pong back and forth between sexes at will.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    In those articles they seem to touch ever so slightly on the subject of biological differences and implications, the arguments and observations do seem hyper-focused on the stereotypes and correlation to sex role expectations. The practical and physical aspects aren't something I'd ever really considered, but I did always appreciate playing a lighter instrument--I got the last laugh 😜 I never did see the flute as being a "girl instrument", but I did feel a bit more sophisticated and fancy for playing it, not like those boors blasting their horns (a sexist view now, perhaps, even if unconscious). Now I'm curious to look into the sexism within orchestras and instrumentation!

    Yes, it's all been very helpful! I learn oodles from what you and others share, truly, because obviously I don't know nearly as much about the world and the topics we discuss as most everyone here does. I love to learn, so I'm always happy to discover things I never knew, even if it might be at odds with how I think I understand the world around me. As I've said elsewhere, I agree with nearly everything gender critical feminism shares, even if maybe it seems like by presenting myself in life as a woman I'm disrespecting those beliefs. But I'm ever curious to learn more, and I just keep meeting smart, interesting and friendly people along the way--it filled my heart to learn you all actually care quite deeply for others.

    [–]valleyoftherogue 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    They don't exist because they are women, and women are not athletically competitive with men.

    To push for XYs to compete in women's sports is to support straight-up cheating and the abolition of women's sports.

    Sex matters. Biology matters. Your feelings about what sex you think you are don't.