Both: Do you think increasing time on the internet has contributed to more people identifying themselves as trans/nb etc.?

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[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How do you define "a gender identity that does not match their sex?"

That is a very good question. I do not think it can be answered objectively. It can only be inferred from reports of the symptoms of gender dysphoria.

Does that include body dysphoria?

Body dysmorphia is normally defined as excluding sex characteristics.

This is one of the reasons I think gender identity is harmful as well as confusing.

I disagree with this part (see below)

There's no need for people to consider themselves not of their biological sex just because they hate femininity or masculinity. Hating femininity doesn't mean I'm not female. Hating masculinity doesn't mean you're not male.

I am in complete agreement with you. Gender identity is a separate concept to sex. Trans people can change their sex characteristics but do not change their sex. I disagree that gender identity is harmful; mismatched gender identity is just a description of an experience that seems to be common to trans people. I think it is harmful to claim that trans people literally change sex.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, how would you personally define it? Not giving you a hard time. I'm genuinely curious. We had endless discussions on the old sub about it, but since the definition of "gender identity" changes from person to person, it's hard to debate unless you know exactly where someone is coming from.

When I think of trans people with body dysphoria, I think of primary sex characteristics like penises and vaginas. So it's different from dysmorphia. Maybe genital dysphoria would be a better term. Do you think people need genital dysphoria to be trans?

I disagree that gender identity is harmful

Maybe I should revise. I think it's harmful in that it leads people to believe biological sex can be changed or that things unrelated to the body are indications of needing to change one's sex characteristics. In extreme cases, it involves people undertaking risky medical transition even when they feel no distress about their body, purely because they have been led to believe that not "feeling like" their biological sex makes them part of some third category or the opposite sex's category. And the promotion of gender identity can lead to people attributing other bodily discomfort (due to pubertal changes, trauma, eating disorders, etc.) to transsexuality.

"Miserable as a teenage girl? Become a boy instead." The rate of natal female teenagers adopting trans identities has skyrocketed 4000%, which is clearly not in line with known history about transsexualism. I think this is one of those things that looks very different from a natal male vs. natal female perspective. Girls are currently raised in a culture that is hostile towards women, perhaps more hostile than any other time in recent history. We have a sexual predator in the White House. This is the first generation that has been raised on extreme violent Internet pornography. There is no way to be a fashionable or attractive teenage girl without embracing not just femininity, but sexualized, pornified femininity. Clothes for teenage girls are all tight and skimpy, designed to show off their bodies. Any girl who isn't comfortable with it, any girl who adopts a contradictory appearance, is being told this may mean she has a gender identity at odds with her sex.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, how would you personally define it? Not giving you a hard time. I'm genuinely curious. We had endless discussions on the old sub about it, but since the definition of "gender identity" changes from person to person, it's hard to debate unless you know exactly where someone is coming from.

No problem. For me, I describe it as a feeling of not being a man, and my personal self-image being disconnected with my idea of other men (which is grounded in our binary-gendered society). This manifested as discomfort with my physical form and the physical manifestations of my biological maleness, that is, physical gender dysphoria. I also feel some discomfort with being seen as a man and assumed to have masculine attributes (social gender dysphoria).

When I think of trans people with body dysphoria, I think of primary sex characteristics like penises and vaginas. So it's different from dysmorphia. Maybe genital dysphoria would be a better term. Do you think people need genital dysphoria to be trans?

I think the term gender dysphoria is used to describe these feelings, physical gender dysphoria, to be specific, but genital dysphoria is also used to focus on only genitals (to the exclusion of things like height and body shape). There are plenty of trans people whose gender dysphoria is mostly or entirely social, so genital dysphoria is not the only identifying criterion.

Maybe I should revise. I think it's harmful in that it leads people to believe biological sex can be changed or that things unrelated to the body are indications of needing to change one's sex characteristics.

I think it is not the concept of gender identity but the lack of mental health services that leads to harm, especially for adolescents. While there is good evidence the transition benefits those with prepubescent or adult onset of gender dysphoria, up to 80% of those with adolescent onset later desist. I would reframe your point to say that the promotion of transgender identity as a cure-all is harmful, especially to vulnerable adolescents seeking identity and belonging, especially rushing to medical or surgical transition. I would like to see more promotion of gender nonconformity as separate to transgender identity. Girls should not be told that they should go on testosterone just because they like to weld.