GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces?

worried19 · 2021-09-12T23:47:04+00:00

Do you think the vast majority of men would say you're not entitled to use the men's restroom?

worried19 · 2021-09-10T07:09:17+00:00

I don't think the vast majority of men care. But if these are male spaces, then all natal males have a right to go in. I doubt trans women would want to, though.

worried19 · 2021-09-09T23:37:37+00:00

I don't agree with that at all. If it's their space, they're entitled to have a say in who is allowed to enter.

worried19 · 2021-09-09T19:40:14+00:00

I think it's fine for men to have strict sex-segregated spaces. I admit I do often use men's restrooms and have ever since I was a little kid, but I wouldn't use them if men had a problem with it. As it is, I've only ever had trouble in women's restrooms, not men's.

worried19 · 2021-09-05T06:30:10+00:00

She is a butch lesbian, very happily married to another butch lesbian

Does anyone expect this to last? I know it's a cartoon, but GNC women have a horrible record of getting transitioned in virtually all media these days.

worried19 · 2021-09-04T01:11:27+00:00

I don't think we know. There are only two pictures online, no video.

worried19 · 2021-09-03T06:26:51+00:00

Generally.

Although I think there's a difference between simply talking about terms and calling other people those terms.

worried19 · 2021-09-03T05:40:01+00:00

I was specifically referring only to "old-school transsexuals with genital dysphoria." The rest are either trenders or fetishists.

worried19 · 2021-09-03T03:28:17+00:00

The tweets before they were deleted:

https://www.lipstickalley.com/attachments/1630617438024-png.2859840

worried19 · 2021-09-03T03:24:41+00:00

I thought for sure Slate would ignore it, but apparently not. Evan Urquhart was throwing a fit about having to print a retraction:

https://twitter.com/e_urq/status/1433537047931797514

But ended up limiting their Twitter after receiving negative feedback. I'm guessing if it were up to Urquhart, no changes would be made at all.

worried19 · 2021-09-03T03:19:09+00:00

I mean people like peaking and Fleurista and Barbie. True, I am relying on their own reports, but I trust them. They're not the sum total of trans women, I know that, but I do believe transsexuals like this still exist in significant numbers.

worried19 · 2021-09-02T18:00:12+00:00

Not remotely surprised. I knew right away this must have been a bad actor. An actual old-school transsexual with genital dysphoria would never be parading around fully nude in the women's section of a spa. At best, it was going to be someone oblivious and entitled with no dysphoria, and at worst it was going to be a sex offender. I'm definitely not shocked it is a sex offender, nor do I think it's possible to prevent people like Merager from taking advantage of self ID.

What really bothers me is the number of people who attacked the women and girls who were the victims of this incident, going so far as to claim that the whole incident was a transphobic hoax made up for the cameras. Others claimed they were unfairly persecuting some unsuspecting trans woman. I wonder how many of those people, including journalists at magazines like Slate, will even bother to print a retraction. Maybe they'll even double down and insist the person with a long history of sex offenses is innocent after all. That wouldn't surprise me. More likely they'll just ignore it and hope the public forgets. They don't seem to want to acknowledge anything that goes against their narrative.

worried19 · 2021-09-02T07:08:20+00:00

Oh cool, yeah, I remember both of your old names.

This place is smaller and a little more chill. Missi's not here on this sub, at least as far as I know. She was certainly one of our more vehement posters.

worried19 · 2021-09-02T04:20:39+00:00

Scary shit. This should be the big moment for the Supreme Court to step in.

worried19 · 2021-09-02T04:19:53+00:00

You guys are still in lockdown? I'm weary of COVID, but it would be even worse if we had lockdowns here.

They reinstated masks in my workplace because people couldn't be trusted on their vaccination status and also because of Delta, but otherwise we have plenty of freedom.

What’s something y’all would want for Christmas?

Always a tough question. I prefer having experiences to acquiring more physical stuff. I hate clutter.

worried19 · 2021-08-31T02:02:08+00:00

It's for discussion, too, not just debate! This is such a small sub as it is, and I personally am happy to have any QT participation.

worried19 · 2021-08-31T01:17:49+00:00

You can still read and participate on both threads, although they have disappeared from the main page.

https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/8bh4/for_gc_what_makes_someone_trans

https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/8agq/for_people_who_think_bathrooms_should_be

worried19 · 2021-08-29T18:49:40+00:00

True, there have always been autogynephiles, but there used to be stricter gatekeeping. They had to at least convince psychiatrists that hormones and surgery were necessary. If a transsexual didn't have surgery, they couldn't legally change sex. Heterosexual men who loved their penises and wanted to keep them became transvestites, not transsexuals.

The common perception of transsexuals is that they are still made up primarily of extremely effeminate homosexuals who have too much physical and social distress to live as male in society. That's part of the reason we're in this current mess. The general public doesn't realize that the demographic has shifted. They have no idea "transbians" are even a thing.

worried19 · 2021-08-29T07:02:54+00:00

I believe the current definition is too broad.

To me, "trans" is what old-school transsexuals used to experience. Severe, debilitating sex and genital dysphoria that starts in early childhood and persists through adolescence and into mature adulthood. The kind that is resistant to all forms of therapeutic treatment.

worried19 · 2021-08-22T23:22:04+00:00

Blaire White also did a great video on this case:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnzukbQDpSI

That video of James is so disturbing. He says not once, but twice that his mother tells him he's a girl.

worried19 · 2021-08-22T22:08:17+00:00

I agree that if someone appears to be a biological male due to testosterone use, the situation may occasionally be awkward and require further explanation. I've never taken hormones, but it's my choice to have short hair and dress in men's clothes. I realize people might not immediately recognize that I'm female as a result. I just want detransitioned women to feel that female spaces are still for them.

worried19 · 2021-08-22T21:42:27+00:00

Hey, welcome! I'm also from the old debate sub. Did you have a different name there? I don't recognize your handle. I'm always happy to see more QT people.

worried19 · 2021-08-22T00:07:03+00:00

Is it just that they're non-passing, or did you think the actors themselves took it as a joke?

worried19 · 2021-08-21T23:46:19+00:00

I assume very few people are pretending about their gender identity for kicks. I think the vast majority honestly believe it (or want to believe it), but what they're feeling is merely an emotion. It's a subjective experience, not an objective one. I do believe that many if not most people who claim a gender identity in our current society (especially natal females) are reacting to the culture, not reacting to anything they were born with or that is intrinsic to them as a human being. Most of their distress is social and cultural, not biological in nature.

worried19 · 2021-08-21T23:35:01+00:00

Oh, I didn't know you had a substack. I'll check that out.

worried19 · 2021-08-21T23:33:56+00:00

Have you seen bad portrayals? I keep meaning to watch The Danish Girl on Netflix, but I heard Eddie Redmayne did a good job in that role.

worried19 · 2021-08-21T23:31:30+00:00

But what about detransitioners? They shouldn't be exiled from female spaces for a mistake that they made in the past. In some cases, it was not even their choice. Some of them were transitioned as minors before they could give meaningful consent.

worried19 · 2021-08-21T23:29:19+00:00

They're entitled to, but I'm not sure that they would want to.

But I don't have a strong position on public restrooms. I personally use the men's quite often because I'm GNC and huge and easily mistaken for a dude at first glance, so a lot of the time it just seems like the easier choice. I've never been confronted in the men's room, but I have in the women's, even though I'm entitled to be there as a natal female. Ideally, gender-neutral third spaces would be preferable for those of us who might not feel comfortable or safe in the spaces that align with our biological sex.

worried19 · 2021-08-17T04:01:45+00:00

Hey, I'm good. Just going along like normal. I may be heading to my family's vacation cabin again over Labor Day weekend, so that promises to be fun.

Congrats on your move and the art installation. That sounds cool, maybe we can see the finished product on your YouTube channel when it's done?

worried19 · 2021-08-17T03:57:43+00:00

Sure, but there's no evidence it was a fantasy world. Anyway, that's getting a little far afield. I think your original comment was that Hollywood won't give trans women those roles. It seems to be changing, which is a good thing. I don't mind trans women playing non-trans roles, or vice versa either. Acting is acting.

worried19 · 2021-08-17T03:51:41+00:00

Nah, I'm apathetic about religion.
I was raised evangelical, but was never a true believer. I mostly just did whatever adults told me, but I didn't have a strong faith of my own.
Somewhat. I was raised with the idea that God doesn't make junk, and that your body is a temple of God. Even if you don't believe in God, I still believe it's important to honor and respect your body and the bodies of others. I don't think people should mess with nature/evolution if they can help it.
Definitely. Gender ideology is very much like a religious belief to me. I don't believe that special "gender souls" exist in objective reality, no matter how much certain people might say they feel them. It's a subjective experience, not an objective one. And I think with me being generally resistant to religion, that lessens my ability to believe the gender stuff.

worried19 · 2021-08-05T17:39:09+00:00

If it’s not discussed it is possible. Lilly Elbe in the 30’s. Jorgensen in the 50’s. Unlikely certainly but not impossible. You assume the character isn’t trans.

Circling, a non-passing transsexual would never have been hired in a job of that type back in the 1960s. It's simply not possible due to the extreme prejudice they faced at the time. This character worked with children. If a known homosexual would have been roundly dismissed from most jobs (but especially a job working with children), the response for a transsexual would have been equally as harsh if not harsher. They would never have gotten the job at all. Out of everyone here, I find it surprising you'd downplay the struggles such individuals faced.

worried19 · 2021-08-05T02:25:29+00:00

Yes though they won’t let them.

I can think of two recent examples. There was a trans woman who played a natal woman in The Queen's Gambit. And Patti Harrison is a trans woman who just had a starring role as a natal woman in a movie called Together, Together.

worried19 · 2021-08-05T02:22:48+00:00

There are more pressing concerns for me than who gets nominated in which category for awards shows.

Do you think trans actors should be able to play characters who aren’t trans (but are the opposite sex)? Do you think actors who aren’t trans should be able to play trans characters?

Sure, I don't have an issue. It's called acting for a reason. As long as the actor is convincing in the role, there's no problem.

worried19 · 2021-08-02T05:04:12+00:00

Oh, great. Looks like we lost our only new QT poster and they deleted all their messages.

worried19 · 2021-08-01T19:19:37+00:00

This is directed primarily at u/moremoss, but any QT person can answer. I'm so happy we actually have QT people here for a change to talk with. Please know that I am 100% invested in good faith debate.

The way I understand things, in the QT worldview, we have biological sex (consisting of chromosomes and reproductive systems and genitalia) and then we also have gender identity. Please let me know if I'm getting any of this wrong. In the QT view, "gender identity" means having a personal sense of being a man or a woman. It is not understanding sex factually. For example, a trans man or non-binary OFAB person might say "I know I was born with certain parts, but regardless, I am not a woman." So it's not a lack of understanding of the biological reality of things. They know what genitals they were born with, obviously, and most acknowledge that that makes them part of the female sex category.

This is in contrast to GC people, who go off biological sex alone without taking into account personal feelings about being male or female. QT proposes that it is possible to not be a man or woman based purely on the "personal sense" of not being one. So an OFAB person can say, "Hey, this whole woman business does not resonate with me. I don't feel like that's what I am. I don't think that's what I was meant to be," and then the rest of QT believes that just the statement alone makes that person no longer female.

So for example, if I woke up tomorrow and said I was a trans man (which is not outside the realm of possibility for someone like me), then that would make me automatically no longer female and no longer a woman because it's based on my personal sense. I guess I just find it confusing how mere words can have so much power. It seems very much like a metaphysical or spiritual belief. I grew up somewhere where people talked a lot about getting "saved." When you were saved, you were born again and no longer what you were before. It feels very much like that to me, like a religious belief. I'm not knocking religion. It works for many people. But it doesn't make sense for outside people to believe the same things about that religion.

I guess I just question what makes other OFAB people so different from me. I'm talking about natal females because that's obviously my sole experience. We're all born with these certain body parts and society tries to socialize us a certain way because of them. More or less successfully, depending on the person. I, for one, rejected female socialization entirely and grew up more like a "trans boy" (in modern parlance), but I was a child before kids were commonly considered transgender. So what makes me different from a non-binary OFAB person or a trans man, really, if it's not based on bodily dysphoria or medical transition? The way I see it, we're psychologically identical. Neither of us "feels" like women. We don't have that "personal sense." So why are they not women and I am one?

worried19 · 2021-08-01T02:12:33+00:00

Do you think it's related to some sort of trauma?

worried19 · 2021-08-01T01:15:19+00:00

I think the invention of "non-binary" has been one of the more destructive things to come out of the new gender movement. It solidifies the idea that if you don't "feel" like a man or a woman (ie: identify with stereotypes), then you are in fact not a real man or woman and should call yourself something else instead.

"Non-binary" is not just a harmless identity or phase that involves pronoun changes and haircuts. For many young people, it's a gateway to a more solidified transgender self. And many people who identify as non-binary do go on to take hormone and have surgeries, despite in many cases experiencing no bodily distress. They insist on denying the reality of biological sex and instead claim that they are magically sexless beings based on the way they feel about being male or female. As a GNC woman who happens to dislike being female, I find non-binary claims illogical and occasionally even offensive. It almost feels like female non-binary people in particular just think they're better than the rest of the female population.

worried19 · 2021-08-01T00:35:10+00:00

It's not your fault. I'm not sure this particular poster likes anyone here. She also had negative comments about me wanting to talk to theory.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T23:57:30+00:00

a female gender identity would be a personal sense of being female

I just view being female as an objective fact. I don't have a personal sense of being female. I am biologically female. I may not like that fact, but it's not in dispute. I got born with a female reproductive system and XX chromosomes.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T23:54:55+00:00

You're seriously comparing having intercourse to sexual violence.

Forget it. I don't know why you are so hostile and aggressive to everyone, but I'm out of the conversation.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T22:16:14+00:00

Peaking didn't bring it up, though, I did. And I also stated I don't believe being penetrated is an indication of femininity. Plenty of masculine men like having things up their ass, straight and gay alike.

For straight women, this isn't really an option because they're made to believe penetration is obligatory and the only possible way for them to have sex, regardless of their difficulties, sexual enjoyment, risks and even health complications.

Or you know, maybe some of us do genuinely enjoy our vaginas being penetrated by penises. I think it feels fantastic. There's no problem if any woman doesn't like it, regardless of her sexual orientation. It doesn't make her any more or less female. Women are women regardless of how they like having sex.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T18:49:09+00:00

I wouldn't know as I don't have a female gender identity

Then how is any natal female supposed to know? If it can't be defined by anybody, if it's just some nebulous thing, how are female-bodied people supposed to determine whether they have one?

worried19 · 2021-07-31T18:46:03+00:00

I know. I spent several minutes reading that sentence over and over trying to make it make sense.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T18:25:33+00:00

I was also the one who brought it up in the first place.

I'm sure the stereotype for HSTS would be that they are sexually receptive and would not desire to use their penises for penetration.

Which I then went on to speculate is a symptom of dysphoria, an aversion to penetrating because having a penis makes them dysphoric. Different from gay men who are receptive partners because they prefer the physical sensation and also different from natal women who do not have a penis to penetrate with.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T18:02:31+00:00

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's worse for girls simply because they're the ones being taught that they should be the victims of sexualized violence, but it's just as abusive to teach little boys they're supposed to find pleasure in hurting or dominating women.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T18:00:59+00:00

That's why everyone is different. My impression was that boys were seen as the strong, brave ones, while girls were just considered "nice." I didn't want to be "nice." I wanted to be a protector and a warrior. I wanted to be expected to be brave and tough and willing to die for my family and my country. I didn't want people to consider me weak or a crybaby or too emotionally fragile to handle those situations.

By the way, female puberty and female biology in general is a lot harsher on the body and more involved than you're making out.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T17:56:29+00:00

Why would you like that? You want people to control you or treat you badly?

worried19 · 2021-07-31T06:25:13+00:00

My main concern outside of trans stuff is porn and kink culture. These have had permanent, traumatic effects on me and I believe they have also severely impacted other women and girls.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T06:18:16+00:00

For GC: what do you think leads someone to becoming QT or a TRA?

Environment, mostly. This is a very new movement, but it's been pushed heavily over the past 5 years. Especially for young people in liberal towns and cities. I think a lot of it is motivated by liberalism, sympathy, and wanting to be on the right side of history. It's the same way a lot of GC people started out. We wanted to be nice, we wanted a struggling, marginalized community to feel accepted and included. Those are good motivations.

Do you think QTers/TRAs are always homophobic/misogynistic?

Not at all, and certainly not in ways that they would recognize. I feel like a lot of casual TRAs are ignorant of the darker things that are happening as a result of the trans movement. They are cheerleading because they genuinely believe it's morally right and they have seen no homophobia or misogyny. Now there are of course also some "true believers" who know the darker things and dismiss them or even promote them. But I feel like the majority of TRAs are happily ignorant and tribal and thus bow to liberal feminist authorities. They won't listen to us because they've been told we're bigots who want trans people dead.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T05:25:44+00:00

They wouldn't be much of a friend in that case! I don't know, everyone's in charge of their own life. I can say I think there are things you could do to improve your quality of life, but I know it's easier said than done and poor mental health makes a hard job harder. If I could wave a wand and change things for you, I would, but unfortunately I don't have that power. All I can say is that I wish you well and that you still have a lot of life left to live. Things may change, you never know.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T04:56:55+00:00

The way I see it is that gender identity as in a "personal gender soul" or something like that is very uncommon in society. It's not something that the vast majority ever think about. Put bluntly, a dude looks down, sees his dick, and understands that he's male. How he feels about being a man or about masculinity in general is irrelevant. He can see the reality of his body and knows that's what makes him a man.

Could you rephrase this?

Sure, all I mean is that for thousands upon thousands of years, a person's sex was based upon the reality of the body. The vast majority of human beings who have ever lived and died on this earth never once thought something else made them male or female. It wasn't an emotional feeling. It was based on their bodies.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T04:35:09+00:00

But that's the whole GC community. If you don't understand that we all reject personal gender identity, you're missing the crux of our movement. I'm not an outlier. Every woman on Ovarit feels the same way. We understand that we are female due to the biology of our sexed bodies, not how we feel about our sexed bodies.

None of us have the "personal sense" you're talking about. That's a QT belief not shared by everyone. The vast majority of humanity has lived and died without ever once questioning whether their biological sex made them a man or a woman.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T04:20:55+00:00

Well, everyone's insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but that doesn't mean our human lives can't have value. Even if you don't believe in God or whatever. There's still meaning to be found in humans sharing what we can with each other. What about friendships?

Do you see the distinction?

I mean, I guess, but I really think most problems could be solved with a blanket protection for gender nonconformity. In any case, I'm not against trans-specific protection laws, but there has to be safeguarding in place because clearly just opening the barn doors and letting everyone rush in isn't working and can be taken advantage of by bad actors.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T03:26:13+00:00

Then what is gender identity to you?

QT typically defines it as a "feeling" of being a man or a woman. But what if you are a man or woman but don't feel like one or even want to be one? What if you are simply acknowledging biology? "I am an adult human female" is a true statement for me regardless of how I personally feel about it.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T03:01:51+00:00

Thanks for that. Yeah, circling's hatred of men rivals anything I've seen from so-called feminist "man haters."

I get where you're coming from.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:54:36+00:00

Well, GC people think gender exists as a social construct only. Meaning it was created by humans and is not naturally inborn. It's the result of socialization. We believe gender is a hierarchy of oppression created to keep natal males at the top and natal females at the bottom. Radical feminism is meant to smash that hierarchy. That's the goal anyway.

We don't believe that women are naturally at the "bottom" of anything. We think that women are socialized to believe we're inferior to men and that femininity is our destiny. But radical feminists want to tell girls and women that's not the case. You can be tough, strong, aggressive, masculine, stoic, or whatever and still be just as much of a female. We believe that sex lies in the body, and that your sexed body does not reflect your personality. It doesn't matter how you feel about your sexed body. Your sex is part of you but it does not and should not define you, your interests, your presentation, your sexuality, or anything else.

If you polled the women on Ovarit, none of them would say they have a gender identity. We all recognize we have female bodies. Some of us like them, some of us hate them, some of us have mixed feelings, and some of us are indifferent. But we're all female regardless of how we feel about our biological sex.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:45:10+00:00

Fair enough. Since you're asexual, I can't imagine you would enjoy it nor should you feel pressured to engage in anything you don't want to do.

But just so you know, it doesn't have to involve BDSM. I've never had sex where a power dynamic was involved.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:43:03+00:00

Some women are happy to transition and get that privilege. I used to "pass" as a boy growing up. I know what it's like to have people think you're male. I prefer it. Women are viewed as emotionally, intellectually, socially, and sexually inferior to men. I can't stand being seen like that.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:38:48+00:00

It's not worse, but why not be better than them? You can be firm without being cruel.

This thread for example is just plain nastiness for the sake of being nasty:

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/38307/new-acronym-dims

It does no good to our image and does not further the GC cause. There are times when it is important to be strident and even harsh. When protecting children from medical abuse, for example. This is not something like that. This does no good. And yeah, it was downvoted 6 times (once by me), but I'm disappointed to see it get so many upvotes along with further cruel comments.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:33:47+00:00

No worries. I do acknowledge there is some stuff there that I would personally disagree with.

By the way, welcome to the sub. I'm so glad we have more QT people joining.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:31:22+00:00

Pretty much all GC women consider gender identity to be a harmful social construct, and as such, we don't believe we have one.

As for me personally, I'm a biological female who "presents" stereotypically male in all ways. Hair, clothing, hobbies, etc. I have never felt like a woman or wanted to be a woman. However, I fully acknowledge my biological sex and do not intend to medically transition. I guess you could say I'm a "butch" straight woman, but I just go with GNC because "butch" really belong to lesbians.

"Agender" implies a person believes in gender identity but doesn't think they personally experience one. That's not my situation. I only know I am a biological female based on my body. It has nothing to do with feelings.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:26:55+00:00

So you think most of us are jerks? Some women are more strident, but is it their manner of speaking you have a problem with, or the beliefs themselves?

What do you consider transphobia?

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:24:04+00:00

Thanks for the background on ENDA.

Fair enough, there's been so much Democratic handwringing over voter ID that I figured most leftists were against it because of charges that it disenfranchises poor people of color. I shouldn't assume that's the same view of all radical feminists.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:19:32+00:00

Neither of those cost money and are far from universal.

Yeah, but it shows their ability to get things done. It could happen, if they put the same effort into those things as they do with their current endeavors. And I certainly don't believe trans women should be in the general male prison population. They obviously need a protected space. But throwing them in with natal women isn't the answer. You may not be a danger, but there are some very serious criminals who are.

Thank you. I’m not suicidal, I also don’t think my life has value or meaning but I’m not planning on ending it.

Do you think there's anything at all that could change your mindset? I've struggled with despair at times as well. Maybe not as seriously as you have, I don't know, but I feel like there's got to be a way for you to see the value in yourself. A lot of people find that through relationships and friendships. Or even religion or spirituality can help some people.

I'm visibly GNC too, and I understand it's not the same for me as a natal woman, but I know what it feels like to get stared at or called slurs. I just think people who have a problem with me, it's their problem, not mine. If they're bigoted because of the way I look, it doesn't affect my value. If anything, it's their reputation that takes a hit. It shows how petty or nasty or brainwashed they are.

If you leave a loophole, bigots will use it.

I guess I just don't see it. The people who are upset by gender nonconformity usually base that on religion. Those bigots are not going to be any friendlier towards people like me or theory than they are towards you. If they wouldn't have a reason to fire us, they wouldn't have a reason to fire you. If they can't base it on gender presentation, then they have no legitimate reason. It's wrongful termination.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:07:46+00:00

I haven't followed the threads that closely, so I missed the "monster" exchange. Maybe you could link it?

circling is the one who often claims trans identified people are unlovable freaks or something like that.

This is obviously the result of low self esteem. I just feel bad this is circling's opinion of herself and seemingly other trans people.

circling equals disagreeement with bigotry.

Well, I don't know. She could probably clarify, but I haven't experienced that in our interactions.

worried19 · 2021-07-31T02:02:58+00:00

What about gender nonconforming people who don't believe in gender identity? Where would we fit?

worried19 · 2021-07-30T09:54:02+00:00

I was GNC from the age of 3, but I only began to have an issue with my biological sex around 13. I think it was a combination of things. Puberty and my lack of ability to continue to pass as a boy and my growing awareness that I was different enough to alienate me from my peers and fear and confusion over what I imagined life as a woman would be.

Bear in mind, though, that I never had any actual physical dysphoria. I didn't hate my breasts or vagina at any point. It was all social for me. That made it easier to overcome through exposure to different ways of thought. I won't say that I don't sometimes still struggle with being female. I'll always have some gender issues, but it's a lot better than it used to be. I'm definitely much more at peace.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T09:46:08+00:00

I don't even think trans women should be "banned" from bathrooms. It would be a hard if not impossible thing to enforce, for starters. But there needs to be some safeguarding.

Trans people have gained enormous political power. If their lobby can pass laws allowing natal males in female prisons and female sports, they could damn sure bring about gender-neutral restrooms or protected prison wings. The White House even changed Title IX to respect gender identity instead of biological sex. If that's not power, I don't know what is.

I honestly just think some here simply hate trans women. It’s not a logical thing necessarily.

I won't ask you to name names, but I sincerely hope that's not the case. And just so you know, I'm worried for you. I know you mentioned you only participate here when you're not doing well mentally. I feel like you express a lot of self-hatred towards yourself as a non-passing trans woman. But many if not most trans women are in that same boat. Your life can still have value and meaning even if you don't look like how society expects.

I use women’s rooms if no neutral facilities are available which is usually the case. A ban would force me to only go places that have a neutral restroom which are rare in this part of the country.

They should be more common, but regardless, I really don't think bans are coming any time soon. GC really has bigger fish to fry at this point. I know you're afraid of men and don't want to be in with them. That's understandable if you've faced violence in the past. I don't want to force you into a men's room either.

All they need say is they are acting in that fashion not because I am dressed but because I am trans.

I disagree, though. What would be their rationale? What they really have a problem with is non-conforming appearance, not how you perceive yourself in your own head. A heterosexual transvestite like theory or a GNC woman like me would not be any more protected against people who dislike how we present ourselves.

But they do and trans people aren’t protected. Part of what if changes do is help prevent those for the lucky that pass. And We still don’t have legal protections for them.

As far as I know, gay people also don't have federal legal protections for sexual orientation either in terms of housing and employment discrimination. They got same-sex marriages, but the other stuff got left behind. It seems to me this would be a fruitful endeavor and a higher priority than some of the things they're currently doing. As far as voting, though, trans people can vote. And the vast majority of radical feminists are not in favor of voter ID.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T09:19:15+00:00

Yeah, a lot of online discourse these days can be summed up as furious people venting.

I have been accused of tone policing in the past, and I get that it's problematic to tell women to "be nice," but I feel like GC should conduct themselves in a way that makes it harder for people to pin negative labels on us. Granted, it may not work. J.K. Rowling was so nice and moderate and even believes in "true trans" and yet she's still being sent rape and death threats. But that doesn't mean we should stop trying, at least in my opinion.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T09:12:10+00:00

Well, I mean it's getting compared to homophobia and racism. And plenty of people online talk about "TERFs" like we're witches and devils who should be shunned or even raped and killed. To say the situation is polarized right now is an understatement. I agree with you, the whole political scene is a mess. Not even just about trans issues, I mean look at Trump and his supporters and what happened on Jan 6. It's pure craziness. People just need to take a giant step back and breathe and talk about our differences and try to find a way forward.

There are definitely people on the extreme ends of either spectrum, but most people are more towards the middle. There are a few women on Ovarit (maybe 2 or 3) that I would not want to be around due to their attitudes towards trans people. But that's 2 or 3 out of thousands who are members. Most of us genuinely want to live and let live. No one wants to be locked into battle with another community. We don't get pleasure out of it. If anything, we're scared, frustrated, and battle fatigued. Radical feminists have no political representation, no political voice, and no real power at the moment. We're just trying to stay afloat, and if a small minority of us are being jerks on the Internet, it doesn't invalidate the whole movement.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T08:58:40+00:00

But I'm not against trans rights. I want trans people to have the right to live full lives in society, not be pushed to the margins like they were 30 or 40 years ago. They should have legal protections in housing, employment, public accommodation, protected spaces for their unique situations, and also to be able to marry and have kids. How does that make me bad?

I've always been a moderate. 10 years ago, this was perfectly normal. What makes me GC now is the fact that moderation and compromise are no longer acceptable. You either believe in exactly what trans rights activists want, or you're evil, you're the enemy. It's very 1984 in my book. How am I the devil when I genuinely want trans people to live long, happy, healthy lives?

worried19 · 2021-07-30T08:52:45+00:00

Well, it was mostly gender critical thought. That stopped my endless searching for a label for myself. I used to think I was just too masculine to be a normal woman. Now I know that I am a woman, and that nothing can change that, and that I'm not more or less female than any other female person. I'm not defective just because I was (I believe) born different in some way.

Radical feminism helped more with not despairing over issues like violent porn and BDSM. It helps to know there are other women against those things.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T08:50:03+00:00

There was one particularly aggressive post today that pissed me off. We complain so much about the negative actions of certain trans people, why the hell are we doing the exact same thing in reverse? It's tribalism. People like to break everything down in terms of "us vs. them."

worried19 · 2021-07-30T08:47:40+00:00

I see it as a movement in favor of protecting women and children's rights.

And we don't hate trans people as human beings. Some of us hate some of the actions a minority of trans people are taking. And many of us are also concerned for trans people in terms of their health and safety. I do not believe I have ever said anything hateful towards any trans person. I want them to be protected and to be able to live good lives.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T08:42:19+00:00

But also not doing anything for them.

Well, I suppose they just feel it's not their fight. Few people in society are actual activists, and radical feminists focus their time and energy and money on issues that affect natal women. But I'm sure most GC people would vote in favor of a law mandating protected spaces that don't conflict with what they see as sex-based protections.

Since they don’t exist and trans people can’t make them it’s at best a hypothetical solution

Trans people could actually make them happen. They have a huge political lobby at the moment. If the LGBT community threw their collective weight towards things like protected prison wings and gender-neutral restrooms, they could absolutely create laws that would mandate them. The LGB has power they can use to help the T. And plenty of non-trans people would vote in favor.

The “worse than other males” has been directed at all trans women not me specifically but I’ve seen a couple of people say such here.

I wonder what their reasoning is. Some natal males are terrible, no doubt, but I don't see how any trans woman could be worse than others. There are plenty of male-identifying men who are straight out of a horror movie, killers, rapists, and God knows what else.

Removal from society is the outgrowth or what you are espousing. Take bathrooms, without access to safe facilities we lose the ability to participate in many facets of public lfe. The net effect of banning us from women’s facilities and not building new ones is essentially a ban from us participating in large sections of public life.

But passing transsexual women have always had access to female bathrooms. There's no lock on the door. As you say, if you're not passing and not comfortable using either men's or women's restrooms, then how does this affect you? Despite self-ID laws, you're still in the same boat. Unless we have dedicated third spaces, then someone on one side or the other is going to be uncomfortable.

Or the fact that many of you object to dedicated trans protections ( instead saying it should just be for gnc people broadly) which would leave a gap to be exploited by those seeking to discriminate against us.

I say just make a blanket protection for "gender presentation." That protects you and it protects me.

Not to mention we can be denied housing for being trans, voter id laws combined with trans people being unable to update id as many of you push for makes that uniquely dangerous and embarrassing, marrying is made far less likely without timely and affordable transition, It’s been directly argued on the old Reddit board that we should be banned from adopting as mentally unfit and combined with transition induced infertility would make raising children. Impossible for many of us. Your (gc not necessarily specially you) policies left to course at least complicates our ability to do those things.

I would strongly oppose any GC person who tried to stop people from adopting based on trans status. Having the right to found a family is extremely important for all people. That's why I get so distressed when I hear about doctors destroying children's fertility. Even if they do grow up to identify as trans, they deserve to have the choice to have biological kids if they want them. Marriage laws already protect both same and opposite sex couples. And of course housing discrimination and voting discrimination should not exist.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T08:24:14+00:00

Some GC women are a little too aggressive, and the whole community becomes a hate group? That makes no sense. It's the same as if I were to decide to blame all trans women for the actions of predators and fetishists. People are individuals. There are problematic people in every community. Radical feminists are not all perfect, either.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T03:30:46+00:00

It drives me crazy on Ovarit. Some people there really seem to think all trans women are the same. And that the vast majority of them are bad.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T02:23:58+00:00

I maintain that it has to be immediately visible to others. Visibly GNC people get treated very differently in society than conforming people do.

There are GNC personality traits and hobbies, of course, but those don't get you attacked or harassed in public because strangers don't know about them.

For me, being a GNC woman means presenting the same way a man my age would. Not because I get pleasure out of it, but because it's the only way I'm comfortable and the only way I can tolerate life in this society. If I were forced to be feminine, I would be suicidal. It's not something I'm proud of or happy about. I don't know where it comes from. Logically, a piece of cloth is a piece of cloth. It shouldn't matter if someone forced me into a dress. But for whatever reason, it does. Other people may not feel as strongly and would be able to switch back and forth with no problem.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T02:16:34+00:00

Fair point. Fleurista has a YouTube channel by the way, in case you wanted to check her out.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJtylj7hCourJmYC1eFE1g/videos

The difference in the life of a stealth trans woman and one who can’t pass is a big gap. The need for protections is a lot clearer to people in my position I suppose.

But don't you think passing trans women are in favor of protections? Clearly, they would need a protected space in many cases, too. And GC isn't against protected spaces. I know you and I have talked about that before, and you're in favor of dedicated gender-neutral restrooms and locker rooms for people who either don't pass or don't feel comfortable with others of their natal sex.

Even leaving aside the constant insults I get, with assertions I have x y z mental disorder and am a raging misigynist worse than “other men”

I don't think anyone should be insulting you. You've always been very polite. I've never seen you be rude to someone in an interaction. You do have a very negative attitude towards men, but I'm not sure how that means you're a "raging misogynist." Anyway, I haven't seen that from you. Someone actually said you were worse than other natal males?

There’s no common ground that can be found when so many of you are arguing for transition to be inaccessible and pushing policies that would basically remove people like me from society. Surely that’s understandable.

No one wants you removed from society, though. What GC beliefs would prevent you from getting a job, buying a house, voting, marrying, raising kids, etc.? You should be able to live your life just like any other citizen. If we don't believe that you've literally changed sexes (which I don't think you believe either?) it shouldn't affect your ability to go about your daily life like any other person, male or female.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T02:06:35+00:00

No need to be so hostile. Just because I like talking to theory doesn't mean I'm some uneducated idiot. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T02:04:45+00:00

Would you describe yourself as asexual?

Though I wonder if that's not simply because women objectively have it a whole lot better than men overall.

It's really a matter of perspective, though. I hate being female. Some women would switch sexes in a heartbeat.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T02:03:10+00:00

I can see your point about derailing, but we do have a few dedicated threads to talk about it.

worried19 · 2021-07-30T02:01:58+00:00

What about sex that doesn't involve BDSM? There don't have to be dominant or submissive roles.

What do you mean by "gross sexual aspect?"

worried19 · 2021-07-28T07:04:17+00:00

I wasn't really aware of transgender issues prior to 2015, even though I had considered whether I was trans myself back around age 13. At that time, transgender still meant being a "born in the wrong body" transsexual, so I figured I couldn't be that. But my confusion over gender didn't end, and when the "trans boom" started with Caitlyn Jenner, I kind of got sucked into things a little bit. I started lurking on trans subs and went around on Reddit trying to find a label, even going so far as to adopt "genderqueer-ish" for a while, but I could never make myself fully believe it.

When I saw Caitlyn Jenner's television interview, I was sympathetic. I remember being supportive of trans people in general, understanding that it was rare and people suffered from crippling dysphoria and that medical treatment only happened for those for whom it was a last resort. That was my understanding of the situation. Even when I heard about Jazz Jennings and other trans kids, I thought "well, it's extremely rare, and the doctors must know what they are doing." I thought surely the children were heavily screened and treated with other rigorous therapies before any medical intervention took place. That it would only be a last resort option in the case of a suicidal child.

Then I started to learn otherwise. I started to lurk the GC sub on Reddit for their anti-BDSM content. I didn't agree with their stance on trans issues at first, but over time I began to learn more and more about what was happening. I started to lurk 4thwavenow where I learned about what was actually happening with kids, including toddlers and preschoolers. I started to see how many GNC girls and women were disavowing womanhood. I started to notice the explosion of trans identities and neo-genders and medical interventions without psychiatric treatment, claims of zero dysphoria, instant affirmation, demonization of dissent both within and outside of the medical field, and it became apparent to me that things were very, very wrong.

By 2017 I had peaked, although I tried to remain a fence-sitting GC-leaning moderate for several years, until the Reddit banwave happened in 2020. I figured I might as well just be full on GC since moderation appears to be the enemy of trans rights activists.

Have your beliefs or opinions evolved in other ways?

I guess I became more feminist. Feminism wasn't exactly praised in my town growing up, so I was largely ignorant of it. I couldn't get along with the kind of "choice" feminism that liberal feminists espouse. But after learning about radical feminism, I'm more aligned with that branch than any other. Not totally. But radical feminism and gender critical thought have led to me making peace with my biological sex. I'm not confused about it anymore. I rarely feel the kind of distress I used about being female, especially after ridding myself of the liberal feminist influence on Reddit. I'll probably always struggle to some extent, but I'm much better now.

worried19 · 2021-07-28T06:43:17+00:00

Why do you think other trans women like peaking and Fleurista can find common ground with us, but you feel like the situation is hopeless?

It's a tough situation. I really don't think most GC women are bigots, although I will admit I have seen negative attitudes towards trans women, much more common on Ovarit than here. I think some of us get so frustrated with the situation that anger is being taken out on trans people in unproductive ways.

worried19 · 2021-07-25T18:26:11+00:00

I'm not sure why QT is so hell bent on insisting that literal sex changes can take place.

There are people who can pass very well as the opposite sex, but it does not mean their sex has changed. I think it counts in terms of those people being able to live their everyday lives being treated as members of their target sex, for better or worse. But a passing trans man is still female and a passing trans woman is still male.

worried19 · 2021-07-18T02:00:48+00:00

Agreed. The downvotes just make the place feel unfriendly. And it's easy to get mass downvoted if you have an unpopular opinion. But at least downvoted comments are not hidden like they are on Reddit.

worried19 · 2021-07-18T01:59:14+00:00

Well, it's not like every man is watching the worst stuff out there. My partner and I talked about porn in depth, and without getting into TMI, I know what he likes, and it's not violent. He also doesn't watch anything with men in it, just women by themselves or together. This was back when we were both interested in porn, so around age 19 to 22, we talked about it several times. We haven't had a discussion in a while, but we have discussed all other aspects of sex, and he's reassured me (because I'm so fucking paranoid) he doesn't get turned on by misogyny or violence. I have to trust him on that. I would be devastated to learn otherwise, but I truly do not think it's in his nature. He's never betrayed even the slightest hint of that in our sex life.

worried19 · 2021-07-18T00:33:09+00:00

It seems like you don’t like the idea of opening a dialogue or simply reporting them and moving on. Nobody is stopping you from telling them they’re not as feminist as you but again, it doesn’t achieve anything.

Yeah, this is why I feel like I'm coming off weird. Mostly when people try to promote kink, I just report and don't engage. I don't call into question their feminist credentials, so to speak. Then it just turns into a slap fight over who's the "better" feminist. Plus Ovarit is not set up for debate at all. I wish we did have a debate space, but the mods specifically said no.

You're right that there are more important issues than fighting about blowjobs.

worried19 · 2021-07-18T00:25:36+00:00

I'd say overall I see progress for the GC side. Back in 2017, I peaked because that was right when things were starting to get crazy. I was like, "this isn't right." There were very clearly wrong things going on. The craziness has ramped up since then, but I feel like there's more pushback now. Before, it felt like GC was screaming into the void. There were no books being written, almost no articles, no one even seemed to be aware of issues like child transition. TRAs flatly denied such things were happening, and it wasn't at all on the "normies'" radar.

Since then, GC has made some gains. More people are becoming aware though books like Irreversible Damage, and there has been some legal progress like the Tavistock decision. There's more public pushback. On the minus side, TRA has doubled down on their insanity and are pushing things like actual censorship, irreversible hormones and surgeries for children who are not even teenagers, unaltered natal males in women's sports, and other things that would not have flown 4 or 5 years ago. They have also made legal gains.

So it's back and forth, but in general I'm hopeful. I feel like the current situation is unstable and untenable. We're teetering on the edge, and the bubble is bound to burst eventually. In the meantime, it feels like TRAs are frantically trying to push their beliefs as hard as they can into law, into kids' media, into schools, to try to maintain their position. But I don't think they'll be able to. Not ultimately. What they want is just too far removed from reality.

Do you think the pandemic has had or will have any sort of lasting impact specific to the gender and sex debate at all?

I really don't think so. At least not that I can tell. It may be that there is some unknown impact that will become clear later down the road.

worried19 · 2021-07-18T00:08:30+00:00

No worries. I feel like I'm coming off weird in this whole thread. I'm confused on the issue myself.

I feel like the radical feminist community should have some standards. A part of the belief system is being anti-porn, anti-prostitution, and anti-BDSM. However, you see people try to take it from there and go into increasingly debatable territory, such as declaring all PIV or all oral sex on males to be problematic. The community is small, so it's not like it's beneficial to harass women for not being perfectly pure in their private lives. But if they are way off base, I think it is fair to say "hey, you're not a radical feminist if you believe and do these things." But that's only if they're being egregiously in favor of misogynistic acts. If it's something small or if they realize it's bad but can't stop themselves, we should maybe make some allowances there.

worried19 · 2021-07-17T23:52:38+00:00

I'm not arguing for kicking them out. But I do think if they repeatedly break the rules, that should be dealt with. There are a million websites where they can promote kink. Ovarit is not one of them.

worried19 · 2021-07-17T23:50:14+00:00

But we can't pass laws about it all was more my point there.

Oh yeah, definitely not. The law should only deal with the most egregious circumstances of harm. If a man kills or seriously injures a woman during violent sex, he should be afforded no excuse. But I don't think the law needs to intrude into the bedroom otherwise.

Just realised this was GC only. My mistake. Though I'm all for these debates.

No worries, everyone is welcome to chime in.

worried19 · 2021-07-17T23:46:48+00:00

Different user name, same denial of biological sex. This is getting tiresome. I love having QT people here, but not when the same thing keeps getting posted over and over.

worried19