GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out

worried19 · 2023-05-07T16:41:39+00:00

I miss our debate sub on Reddit. It was very active, and we had a ton of trans posters, both transsexuals/transmedicalists and TRAs.

It is my strongly held opinion that if GC people were in the same circumstances as people of trans experience then they would likely transition as well.

What do you mean by the same circumstances? I don't think my experience is all that different from many trans people. I've struggled with dissatisfaction with my sex my whole life, too. It would sure as hell be a lot easier to pass as a man. I'd fit into society much better that way. But my only reason for doing so would be misogyny, internalized and otherwise. I think GNC women and girls in particular are being taught by the trans movement that we should disavow womanhood if we aren't jumping for joy about being female. But we are female regardless of whether we like it. We are female regardless of whether we relate to femininity or feminine stereotypes. And we are female even if we hate how people treat us because of it.

Because I am not a natal male I can't speak to your experience as a transsexual who came from the opposite direction. But I believe that the explosion of trans identification among younger females is related to a terrible defect within society, not a defect within the women and girls themselves.

I think that humanizing the condition of gender dysphoria as something that, given the right circumstances, a person would rationally choose to transition because of is important when discussing these issues.

I have no wish to dehumanize people with gender dysphoria, but there is a huge problem in the trans movement because the "powers that be" have decided that no one needs dysphoria to be trans. Instead, it's an opt-in category, and anyone can identify as such for any reason. This leads to not only bad actors, but also impressionable young people jumping on the bandwagon who have no way to relate to transsexuals such as yourself. It also leads to people, particularly young women with co-morbidities and other mental health issues, transitioning to escape their distress which may be caused by something else entirely and would be better served by actual therapy, not affirmation.

What may be rational and logical for a "classic" transsexual like yourself is very different from the circumstances of, say, a 14 year old girl who presented with no gender distress in childhood, who was the victim of rape or sexual abuse, who suffers from an eating disorder, who has an autism diagnosis, etc. You are two different populations.

It seems to be a common belief that women of TS experience can never socially integrate into society as women and are always going to be complete outsiders… possibly also being the bestubbled owner of a harshly squared chin.

Not always, but it is certainly much, much harder for natal males to pass as female. And this is another circumstance where self-ID is harming transsexuals who have made significant efforts to pass. You have the AGP crowd who make little to no effort, late transitioners who often do not bother with surgery and sometimes even hormones. Whereas the HSTS transsexuals typically went down a much different path fairly early in life. Even with all that, I do think that few transsexuals pass as female in person. Perhaps at a glance for bathroom purposes, but not in any kind of sustained way. If someone doesn't pass, I do think a legally mandated and protected third space would be a good solution.

I find this mindset very common among people who are both supporters and detractors of TS people. However it degrades one’s quality of life to take things away from trans people such as resources for being able to transition (which we are currently seeing elements of in various states today)

Frankly, at this point, I am only concerned about minors. Adults can do what they wish. I do have feelings about how the psychiatric industry is handling adults with gender dysphoria. There seems to be zero gatekeeping, but as long as someone has given fully informed consent, what they do with their bodies is up to them. I may think it's deeply unethical for doctors to hand out testosterone or perform surgeries without any attempt at therapy, but I don't consider it a criminal matter.

It doesn’t seem like people who are critical of trans people would really care if that happened just so long as they at least “weren’t murdered”.

Well, I don't feel that way. I'm not a Republican, but I don't think the vast majority of Republicans feel that way either. I think moderates and conservatives for the most part want trans people to be able to live in society and have legal protections in areas like housing, employment, and public accommodation. I believe most people want reasonable accommodations made and protected third spaces for prisons and shelters and so on. The fact that we are seeing backlash is due to the refusal of TRAs to compromise. And as far as medical care is concerned, no one would be saying anything about it for adults if TRAs had not chosen child medicalization as their hill to die on.

Of course, as you know, not all trans people are TRAs. Many TRAs are heterosexual and non-transgender. Joe Biden, for one. Many of the worst TRAs are not trans themselves. And there are trans people like Blaire White who stand up for child protection. So I don't paint all trans people with the same brush. I am happy to ally with trans people for a common cause like child protection or mandating gender-neutral third spaces.

I apologize in advance for my unfeminine humor making light of our disagreements. My hormone shot is overdue and I’m feeling particularly indignant today.

Ha, you're fine. I've talked with plenty of trans people, and it's nice to be able to have civil discourse even if we don't end up agreeing on everything.

worried19 · 2023-05-01T01:27:25+00:00

Depends on the Republican. There are moderate ones out there, too. My main sticking point is the abortion issue, and while there are pro-choice Republicans, that's not their base. At this point I'm politically homeless. I'm still registered as a Democrat, but I don't feel like I can vote for them.

worried19 · 2023-05-01T01:05:52+00:00

Hey, welcome! It's good to have new people here, especially new trans posters. This sub is not very active, but many of us still lurk and occasionally contribute.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I feel bad that the old-school or "classic" transsexuals have been caught up in the new culture war. It's not really about them and never was. I believe what society is reacting to now is the complete and total lack of moderation and boundaries and the TRA resistance to any form of compromise or moderation. The vast majority of gender critical women only peaked because of how extreme things have gotten, myself included.

Should those that don’t comply with bathroom bills or those that take illicit hormones and are caught be punished legally?

I'm not really as caught up on the bathroom issue as some GC women are. I'm extremely GNC and "passed" as a boy as a kid, so I've been in and out of the men's room my whole life. I often use the men's restroom just because it's less likely to draw attention. I'm 6'1" and dress in men's clothes, so I'm often mistaken for male at first glance.

I think that if people can pass, they should do what trans people have always done and use the restroom that makes the most sense for their appearance, or a gender-neutral third space if there is one. Ideally, I think there should be male, female, and gender-neutral bathrooms in all public spaces, so it would make the choice for trans people a lot easier. It would also help non-trans GNC people who may get looks or comments in the restroom designated for their biological sex.

As far as illicit hormones go, I don't think anyone should be penalized for taking them. People who are selling them illegally should be dealt with however that is usually handled, but anyone giving them to minors should have to face serious consequences. It's not okay to give street hormones to kids. I personally don't think it's okay to give any hormones to kids, but especially ones who are not under a doctor's supervision. At least those doctors, as immoral as I believe they are, do blood tests and keep an eye on the hormone levels of the kids in question.

Can GC and TS exist with compromises and will GC speak up if Republican men in power make it illegal to be trans and try and make the past a reality again?

I would love to be able to compromise, and I know there are transsexuals like Blaire White and Buck Angel and even Caitlyn Jenner who recognize the need for moderation and compromise. But they are drowned out by the powerful TRA organizations who scream constantly about how treating trans people differently in any arena is hatred, bigotry, and genocide.

I don't believe the Republican men in power will try to make being trans illegal. I think some of the more extreme Republicans may be trying to overcorrect because of how crazy things have gotten, but fundamentally, most moderates and conservatives take a "live and let live" perspective on the situation. A lot of hysteria is being whipped up by these organizations and they seem to have legitimately convinced a portion of the trans population that they are in real physical danger, which is incredibly sad and socially irresponsible from my perspective. No one, not the most conservative Republican or the most radical of radical feminists, wants to see trans people physically hurt or killed. The only people who want that are violent men, the gay bashers who have been going after GNC males since long before the trans movement started.

I am worried about the backlash that is sure to head the way of the moderate T people who never asked for any of this. I believe the LGB community is also going to experience backlash due to the forced teaming with the TRA brigade. But I don't know what the solution is. The Democrats are making this issue their hill to die on, which doesn't bode well for the future.

worried19 · 2023-04-01T02:14:02+00:00

My assumption is that along with mental health issues, religion may have played a role for the shooter given that the school was Christian and religion can be at odds with those that are different.

True, although the shooter last attended that school when she was in the 4th grade. She would have been 9 years old, so it seems unlikely that she was aware of her own homosexuality at the time. Also doubtful homosexuality would ever have been addressed by the school, and certainly not transsexuality. Not even the most liberal schools in the country were talking to kids about transgender issues in 2004. But Hale was also high-functioning autistic, and it's possible that she did face ostracism or bullying for reasons not related to religion.

worried19 · 2023-04-01T02:07:41+00:00

Trans people are, incredibly, people, and thus capable of atrocity just like the rest of us.

Very true, but there remains the possibility that Hale may have committed this crime because TRAs have whipped vulnerable members of their own community into a frenzy over an imaginary "genocide." Take a mentally unstable person, convince her that Republicans are comparable to Nazis getting ready to throw trans people into death camps, and it would not be surprising that that person may strike back in vengeance.

worried19 · 2023-04-01T02:02:07+00:00

At this point, I'm numb to school shootings, but the ones where elementary schools are targeted are still rare enough to make a bigger impression. This is too unique for the media to ignore. A female shooter who was trans identified attacking a Christian school hits too many hot-button topics.

The shooter's motivation is still unknown, although the police chief did say "there is some theory to that" when asked if the shooting was related to how Audrey Hale identified. I suspect gender ideology was mentioned in her manifesto, although we won't know for sure until the manifesto is released. There's also speculation she targeted the school because she may have been the victim of sexual abuse there. There's no evidence she was abused, although there was an abuser affiliated with the church at the time she would have attended.

I find it interesting how little the TRA movement has been able to police the language. On Reddit, you will see people complaining about Audrey not being called Aiden or "he/him," but the mainstream media is either desperately trying to ignore pronouns altogether, using "they," or outright using "she" with no regard for her pronouns. If Hale thought becoming a school shooter would cause her to be seen as male, she would have been sorely disappointed in this outcome.

As usual, the right and the left are going to take what they want from this incident. From the left, we are still seeing a continuation of the same tone-deaf rhetoric that may have radicalized Hale and caused her to commit this crime. From the right, we are seeing that conservatives view this as a welcome distraction from the issue of guns.

worried19 · 2023-03-19T18:13:10+00:00

Hey, theory, still around? I didn't realize I never responded to your last few messages.

worried19 · 2023-03-19T18:06:51+00:00

How do you know that Kim repeatedly hits, yells at, punishes and shames Kai? Is there any evidence of this?

There is plenty of evidence for what happened to Kai. The child's own mother has admitted in multiple media interviews that she beat Kai for gender nonconformity as a toddler.

Kimberly turned to a DIY form of conversion therapy. She dressed Kai in camouflage and held her down to cut her blond hair into a flattop. Since most of the family’s seven children are boys—Kimberly has one adult daughter—there were no “girl toys” at home, but Kimberly asked the Christian daycare Kai attended to hide any baby dolls from her as well. When Kai turned her T-shirts into skirts or insisted she was a girl, Kimberly spanked her. When Kai asked for a Minnie Mouse birthday cake, Kimberly bought her one with Mickey.

“No matter how much punishment this kid got, you couldn’t beat it out of her,” Kimberly said. “You couldn’t pray it out, I couldn’t cast it out.”

https://splinternews.com/she-was-an-ultraconservative-texas-christian-then-kai-1793859323

"I remember thinking even before Kai was 3, this kid might be gay....& I thought that cannot happen...would not happen. We started praying fervently. Prayers turned into googling conversion therapy, and how can we implement these techniques at home to make Kai not be like this."

"Putting her in timeout for acting like a girl...for stealing girl toys. Spanking her...REALLY spanking her, every time she said mommy you know I'm a girl."

https://archive.is/zWlen

Not all parents of transitioned children are physically abusive. While horrible in other ways, I don't believe Jazz Jennings' parents ever beat their child. But it makes me absolutely sick to see people like the Shappleys fawned over in the media. What they did constitutes blatant child abuse.

worried19 · 2023-03-19T17:58:04+00:00

I wish you could have seen our old debate sub on Reddit. There were a lot of old-school transsexuals there. Sadly, Reddit doesn't want any discussion contrary to the party line taking place, so they banned our sub for alleged "hate." Even trans people themselves aren't respected if they have an opinion contrary to what TRAs have decided is the Word of God.

I don't usually like the cult comparison, but it's very "culty" for lack of a better word.

worried19 · 2023-03-19T17:54:05+00:00

Well, Buck is female, as Buck is perfectly willing to admit.

Personally, my first instinct is to use the pronouns that make sense by looking at and hearing the person in question. To me, Buck passes as male. Jazz Jennings passes as female. Even though I know that their biological reality is the opposite, I would have to go against my perception to use their biological sex pronouns. Whereas someone like Eliot Page, for example, does not pass and there is just no way I could pretend she was either male or a sexless being.

worried19 · 2023-03-19T17:48:56+00:00

No, definitely not. There are even plenty of prominent trans people who are not TRAs. Blaire White, Buck Angel, Debbie Hayton, and others who are on TRA shit lists for not spouting the TRA party line. Even Caitlyn Jenner, the person who kicked off the trans boom in 2015, is vilified for not having TRA-approved opinions.

worried19 · 2023-03-19T17:45:36+00:00

I wouldn't ever tell a boy that. Nothing wrong with a male person wearing earrings or other jewelry if he likes them.

worried19 · 2023-03-19T17:42:53+00:00

Thank you for sharing all that information. It's especially interesting to hear from an older transitioner. One of my main worries is that these procedures can lead to poor quality of life in later decades. Although it's my understanding that there is much less risk overall for MTF transsexuals vs. FTM ones.

worried19 · 2023-03-19T17:32:56+00:00

Still here. I just keep forgetting to check this site. I'm more active on Ovarit these days.

worried19 · 2022-10-26T06:26:39+00:00

To say that I'm relieved is an understatement. It's inevitable that this will make its way to the USA. It's only a matter of time and a question of how many young lives will be irreparably damaged in the meantime.

worried19 · 2022-10-15T08:03:25+00:00

No, I know lots of conservatives, but none that are really hung up on gender roles. Maybe my grandma, but she has a bunch of old-fashioned ideas and I don't think it would be much use talking to her about this issue.

worried19 · 2022-10-15T08:01:16+00:00

Not in real life. I only know trans people from the debate sub.

worried19 · 2022-10-15T07:55:13+00:00

I think there should be a third space for students who don't feel safe and comfortable in the bathrooms designated for their sex.

worried19 · 2022-10-15T07:53:28+00:00

I'm GNC, but I would have been considered a hardcore tomboy as a child. The kind of girl who passed as a boy and who never "grew out of it" but rejects the idea that this makes me anything other than female.

My perception is that the TQ actively encourages and pressures GNC girls and women to disavow being female. GC, on the other hand, wants them to know that womanhood does not equal femininity.

worried19 · 2022-10-15T07:48:25+00:00

Men who are interested in other males are bisexual to some degree. They're obviously attracted to femininity too, but their attraction to male bodies and male genitals is homosexual in nature. I don't think it qualifies as straight.

I think a lot of homophobic men also see trans women as a "safe" way to explore homosexuality. They can suck another male person's cock and rationalize it in their minds as not really "gay." Same thing with the men who will have sex with other guys but not kiss them. Because romance or tenderness or intimacy would be too "gay" for them, while impersonal fucking apparently is not.

worried19 · 2022-07-06T00:58:22+00:00

If an adult of sound mind and body is suffering and can find no peace or happiness, if therapy to reconcile to one's biological sex has not helped and their dysphoria is debilitating, then I have no problem with that person transitioning medically as long as they are fully informed of all the risks.

I would still be worried for their physical health. There is mountains of evidence that testosterone has a detrimental effect on female bodies in particular. I'm not as well informed about the risk of estrogen for male bodies, but none of these treatments are safe. The surgeries can be brutal and are all too often botched by surgeons who cannot easily be held accountable. But again, adults can make their own choices in that regard. If they weigh the risks and decide that a happy life now is worth it, then I have no quarrel with that.

The main thing is that medical transition should be a last resort. It should never be a first option or done for reasons of "euphoria." It's not something to play around with. These drugs and surgeries have significant risks that can permanently and irreversibly damage one's health.

worried19 · 2022-07-02T20:11:31+00:00

Hey, I'm still here.

I'm doing okay. Kind of depressed about the state of the country.

Not much new going on in my life. I took a trip last month and flew on an airplane for the first time. Sounds kind of weird at my age, but I had never been before.

I haven't really watched any shows since Game of Thrones ended, but I'm looking forward to the prequel series.

My last meal? Comfort food. Mac and cheese, most likely.

My favorite type of pie is apple or maybe cherry pie. With a side of ice cream.

worried19 · 2022-07-02T20:01:26+00:00

Honestly, that's never occurred to me. I do wish I had been born male. If I were male, I'd see myself as one of "the good ones," a provider and protector of those who are weaker. I don't think other men being predators would affect my self-concept. It would just strengthen my resolve to fight those bad actors.

worried19 · 2022-06-22T00:57:13+00:00

I use men's restrooms half the time anyway, so I wouldn't personally care. It's not outside my comfort zone, but I don't think I should get to speak for anyone other than myself.

worried19 · 2022-05-02T02:53:37+00:00

I don't think everyone deserves a family, per se, but I do believe everyone should have the right to not be sterilized or prevented from having or keeping custody of their biological kids. We don't take people's kids away from them unless they've already proven themselves unfit.

Like all people, an aptitude for parenting is something that needs to be assessed case by case. Abusive people hide in every conceivable demographic.

That is true. I think everyone should be evaluated individually. There are certainly trans TRAs out there who would be terrible parents, but I don't think they're necessarily any worse than non-trans TRAs. After all, most of the cases of famous transitioned children come from married, heterosexual parents. I worry much more for Coy Mathis and Kai Shappley than I do for the children of Thomas Beatie, who seem to be living typical suburban lives.

worried19 · 2022-04-30T05:27:06+00:00

We don't have to use their preferred pronouns, though. We can just avoid pronouns at all. I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but if we want to meet TRAs in the middle, it seems reasonable to give them that at least. I'm not talking in society at large, just on our debate sub.

worried19 · 2022-04-30T05:24:52+00:00

Hi Barbie, it's good to see you! Yeah, it's kind of disappointing. There's no activity I'm interested in on Saidit except for this one sub. Often days will go by without me clicking to check what's happening here. It was so much easier on Reddit because there were many subreddits I followed.

Oh well, maybe Elon Musk will purchase Reddit and restore all our old subs. Wouldn't that be great? A person can dream.

worried19 · 2022-04-30T05:11:58+00:00

That's good to hear. What do you think the age limit should be?

worried19 · 2022-04-30T05:09:55+00:00

Almost all of it comes from the first group. I don't think the AGPs give a shit about HSTS transsexuals. Any move old-school transsexuals make towards caution or moderation is condemned. Look at how hated Blaire White and Buck Angel are for their dissenting views.

worried19 · 2022-04-30T05:06:50+00:00

It was discussed on several threads:

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/83233/the-fds-podcast-hosts-are-going-in-on-reddit-s-tim-supermods

https://ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/83199/female-dating-strategy-exits-reddit-due-to-anti-women-and-anti-lesbian-policies

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/83494/this-post-comments-got-reported-before-fds-pre-emptively-moved-from-reddit-now-t

I don't have strong feelings about the move, although it's sad that Reddit is losing yet another dissenting voice. I never participated there and think that many of their discussed strategies are sexist and not feminist, but at least the sub encouraged women to have standards and not allow pornsick men to run roughshod over them. They were also anti-porn and anti-kink, and you can't find that in most other places online.

worried19 · 2022-03-24T20:07:47+00:00

Would you agree on an established age limit for cross-sex hormones?

worried19 · 2022-03-21T04:28:36+00:00

Eh, maybe, but I don't think so. It's never a lost cause as far as I'm concerned. If we can get QT posters to question what they're being told, we might at least prevent negative things happening to some people in those circles.

worried19 · 2022-03-21T04:26:44+00:00

GC was never required to use their preferred pronouns, though. Just to avoid the ones our trans posters didn't like.

It makes sentences awkward, but it is doable.

worried19 · 2022-03-20T16:50:21+00:00

I would rather they go after the doctors who are giving drugs to and performing surgeries on underage children.

There are two types of parents. Parents who are blindsided by a teenager's trans announcement, and parents who are actively transitioning very young children. Some parents in both camps may be well meaning, but many parents in the latter camp are primarily interested in establishing a cross-sex identity for their child and medicalizing them as soon as possible. If they are procuring drugs and surgeries for their children in Texas or elsewhere, I think they should be held accountable. But I would rather see the hammer fall on the doctors who are facilitating this. The parents are not performing these surgeries or prescribing these drugs themselves.

worried19 · 2022-03-20T16:44:22+00:00

TRAs on Twitter are far, far worse. I don't think that's in question. But I do believe the rules of our sub should be upheld. It's not okay for GC posters go around calling QT posters their biological sex pronouns or referring to them as "a man" or "a woman." If we can't even refrain from doing that, you can't blame QT for not wanting to stick around. I'm not saying anyone has to lie. That's why "natal male," "natal female," and "they" were considered acceptable compromises.

Worried19, you may not want to hear this, but QT have made quite clear they are NOT interested in debate. It was QT who got the old sub banned. They were the ones who celebrated the ban and chose not to come over here.

I only recall one former QT regular who was happy about the ban. Several of our trans posters were upset by it. We had trans moderators, too. I'm not saying all QT people are happy to debate. Most probably won't engage with us. But some will. And not everyone who arrived on the old sub QT or QT-leaning stayed that way.

worried19 · 2022-03-20T16:37:09+00:00

Not that GC people are "too rational," but that some women are very blunt and don't try to cushion their words to spare the feelings of QT.

I was thinking more of Ovarit. A lot of women see it as a place to vent, for better or worse. However, I believe this sub should be focused on discourse and debate.

This is just a GC sub, with a primarily GC demographic, so I'm just talking about things GC do.

And that's fair. We are almost completely GC, so it makes sense to address things that might be holding back the QT demographic from participating. Honestly, I think what really killed us was getting banned from Reddit. There are thousands of QT people there, and dozens or maybe even hundreds who were willing to debate with us. Very few here on Saidit. I don't think most QT people know we still exist. I don't believe it's so much the behavior of GC that stymies participation as the change in venue. But good debate does require GC to think about how we can most effectively impart our message.

If you are mostly on the QT side, please feel free to stick around! We could use more of you guys for sure.

worried19 · 2022-03-20T16:29:29+00:00

Do you think people here are generally mean?

worried19 · 2022-03-17T20:24:33+00:00

Because I'm GNC, and I'm concerned in particular for girls who are like I was and the GNC women who have all but disappeared from society. Everyone is at risk, but GNC women are at special risk. I'm talking about women who are masculine. Picture butch lesbians. It feels like we masculine women specifically have been targeted for extermination. There are almost no female GNC public figures under 40 left. Even butch lesbians as old as k.d. lang have been lost. Feminine girls and women are also at risk, but at least they still exist. They haven't had their entire historical record wiped and posthumously transitioned. They haven't seen all their peers and current cultural figures disappear. It is quite a different problem if you yourself are a young GNC woman and you have seen literally every GNC friend or ex-girlfriend transition, as some have. One woman on Reddit or Ovarit (can't remember which) posted that all 11 of her exes had transitioned. To me, that feels like a cultural genocide is taking place. It's not literal murder, but those women's minds and bodies are altered beyond recognition, and the rest of society pretends they were never women or girls to begin with. If you are not personally GNC, you may never understand how this feels.

I think you are reading too much into the "honey" thing. It's a common saying I reached for, and it's not gendered. Basically, my position is "don't be a dick." Don't hurl insults or threats or abuse at people. I don't think any of the male people you mentioned have done that except Trump, and I'm not familiar with some others you listed. The QT side gets away with such abuse online because they somehow have convinced people that their bad behavior does not exist. They've successfully hidden it or convinced all the good liberals that mean conservatives are making it up.

worried19 · 2022-03-17T05:36:47+00:00

QT should be held to the same standards. If we want this place to be for genuine debate and discussion, then both sides should be civil. We shouldn't tolerate rudeness from either one.

And, yes, obviously QT on places like Twitter are objectively far worse. How does that give us license to act like that right back on the debate sub? How random assholes are acting on Twitter has nothing to do with what conduct we should expect from each other here.

worried19 · 2022-03-17T01:00:57+00:00

It was even more of a problem on the old sub, but I agree, a lot of GC women are very "facts don't care about your feelings." Which is true, of course, but even if you don't care about making friends or having true discourse, it's still easier to catch flies with honey. If you want someone to talk to you and consider your perspective, you can't be going 100 miles an hour in the opposite direction. I was often told this is "tone policing" women, but honestly, the same holds true for men. I know a lot of women feel pressure to be nice, but you can not act like a dick and still be strong in your position. Not wavering in your morals and ethics or belief system does not mean bowing down. It just means being genuine and interacting in a respectful manner even with those you adamantly disagree with.

2.) They're rude because this is the only place they can be, so they're allowed to be (but also they aren't rude, you're just stupid.)

Honestly, I get the need to vent. There are certain topics that make me very upset and depressed. But you can't just be venting angrily all the time. It's not a productive use of energy.

I looked at what GC people say, and... yeah, mostly it's "they're disgusting narcissistic degenerate criminals who live to rape and masturbate to violent porn". Hell, the top bullet to most "guide to peaking people" usually starts with "make sure to tell people the transes are doing it for sexual pleasure and they'll rape you as soon as they can get you alone".

Honestly, I think this is overstating it a bit, but there is a certain segment of the GC population who just go on and on about sex offenders and AGP and stuff like that. Of course it exists and is an important issue, but I think they forget that over half the trans population these days is actually natal females and that doesn't even apply. And then they completely forget about the natal male HSTS transsexuals and the transitioned male children. Sometimes on Ovarit, I'm like, can we chill about the trans women just a bit? Frankly, unless it's involving prisons or sports or safeguarding in general, I rarely even think about them. My concern is really for minor children of both sexes and GNC women and girls.

So I agree with you for the most part, but many QT people refuse to argue in good faith. That can also be maddening. The old sub was particularly prone to fights. Safety and employment concerns are also very real for many GC women. On the old sub, there was occasional doxxing. One QT member reported a GC member in New Zealand for child abuse and tried to get her kids taken away from her. There are unhinged people out there. Several women have lost their jobs for being gender critical. So it's not like all the QT people are nice and innocent. There are bad people out there, although I continue to believe that most pro-trans and trans people are decent. The professional activists and Twitter warriors may not be, but ordinary people often still are.

I'm totally all in for respectful discourse. I don't think of this sub as a place to "own" anyone. I would love for us to be able to have conversations and friendships.

worried19 · 2022-03-12T01:40:16+00:00

I definitely don't disagree that women can be perverted to a terrible extent as well. And you should never assume that a woman is "safe" merely because she's a woman. But at the same time, there's a reason that many moms tell their kids that they should look for a woman to help them if they ever get lost. I think the chances of Ruggles or any other natal female getting into this line of work to specifically prey on others is very low. Not non-existent, but low.

worried19 · 2022-03-11T05:23:31+00:00

Paraphilias are much more common in males, for whatever reason. Women can have fetishes and of course they can be sex offenders, but it's less likely.

I just pointed that out because people would be more likely to suspect a male person of having sinister reasons for getting involved in the problem of sexual assault. Of course not all of them, but the chances of a natal female getting involved in that line of work for evil intentions is much less likely overall.

worried19 · 2022-03-11T04:00:20+00:00

I get what you're saying about wanting to talk to a certain type of woman for your own comfort, but at the same time, I don't think GNC women should be othered. We're just as much female as feminine women are. We just don't conform to femininity. We don't need different bathrooms or locker rooms or therapy groups. We're women, too.

worried19 · 2022-03-11T03:58:09+00:00

Yes, of course no one should be excluded from scrutiny or safeguarding. But natal females are almost certainly not going to get involved in sexual assault prevention for fetishistic reasons. The potential for concern would be different with a biological male.

worried19 · 2022-03-10T18:14:04+00:00

Yeah, but I don't think it's fair to assume Ruggles has a bad motivation here. Lots of trans natal females have experienced sexual abuse. Someone can be totally wrong on the trans issue and still have genuine concern and empathy for victims of assault.

worried19 · 2022-03-10T18:11:39+00:00

You think GNC women should not be involved in helping survivors? That seems very restrictive. What about GNC women who feel more comfortable talking to other women like them? If I were assaulted, I would not be comfortable talking to a feminine woman about it.

worried19 · 2022-03-10T18:09:34+00:00

I'm struggling to see anything wrong with it. Sexual violence happens to many different populations. Ruggles is quite obviously a natal female, so there should be no concern about sinister motivations of any type. I don't see how Ruggles being transgender impacts on the ability to do the job. I would assume Ruggles may also be a survivor, since trans natal females are at high risk themselves. Even if not, I'm sure Ruggles has empathy for victims. It would be one thing if Ruggles was championing BDSM or something while promoting this job, but I didn't see any mention of that in the article.

worried19 · 2022-03-10T18:00:33+00:00

I mean, they did debate. I'm not saying they had convincing arguments, but there was plenty of debate and discussion.

And hey, the sub did have positive outcomes. It ended up peaking people. It helped peaked me. I was way more QT when I started posting there. I think it also helped at least one person detransition.

worried19 · 2022-03-10T17:58:18+00:00

Good to hear that. If I ever join Facebook, I will check you guys out.

worried19 · 2022-03-10T17:57:20+00:00

Because this is a debate sub. It's not a GC-only space like Ovarit. And we don't have to use their language. All that's ever been required is to avoid biological sex pronouns for posters who don't identify as their sex.

worried19 · 2022-03-09T03:43:26+00:00

I appreciate u/Genderbender continuing to try, but if there's only one active QT person, it does put a damper on things.

Maybe someone with a Reddit throwaway account can try to entice people over.

worried19 · 2022-03-09T03:41:25+00:00

But that never stopped them on Reddit. They always wanted to debate when we were over there. Granted, many did not stick around long, but at least they made the attempt. And we did have QT regulars who were in it for the long haul.

worried19 · 2022-03-09T03:39:18+00:00

I think the main problem is that QT people aren't even lurking. If you look at our demographics poll, they're not here:

http://www.polljunkie.com/poll/pfipfo/gcdebatesqt/view

I appreciate you trying to drum up interest! But I just don't know if anything will entice more QT people over. I agree that we do need strict rules about language. Misgendering is something that is obviously going to turn off QT people from even attempting to participate. That rule needs to be strictly enforced.

worried19 · 2022-03-09T03:36:10+00:00

I didn't realize there was a group there. I'm not on Facebook, though. I value my privacy too much for that. Do people there participate under their real names? Seems like it might be dangerous for GC people.

worried19 · 2022-03-06T00:27:52+00:00

Yes, I do. Do you still need one? Just let me know.

worried19 · 2022-02-17T00:12:38+00:00

Hey, there. Welcome. I'm also from the old sub. This place is not as active as Reddit, but we still do have some activity. I believe there is a discord server, but I don't know it. Someone else will probably chime in with that soon.

Ovarit is very active! Let me know if you want an invite code.

worried19 · 2022-01-12T07:37:04+00:00

How do we get QT posters? I miss them. The sub is an echo chamber otherwise. We never had any lack of QT on Reddit, but it seems like so few of them are here. They're not even lurking, according to our demographics poll. There's got to be some way to recruit them to join.

worried19 · 2022-01-12T04:54:57+00:00

Welcome, u/beris! I don't think I've seen your posts before, but it's nice to meet you.

worried19 · 2022-01-07T07:28:26+00:00

Oh, wow. I knew you were working on something, but I didn't realize it was this extensive. It looks really cool. Congratulations!

worried19 · 2021-12-19T19:25:44+00:00

Do you think testosterone is generally harder on the body than estrogen for both males and females?

I know for sure it's worse for females, and evidence bears that out.

The litany of health problems suffered by those who represented the German Democratic Republic (GDR) in Cold War-era competitions was laid bare during the Berlin doping trials between 1998 and 2000 in reunified Germany. Hepatitis, heart disease, liver tumors, and liver cancer were among the consequences. Women who received injections or ingested synthetic testosterone also had physical side effects such as acne, deepened voices, excess growth of leg hair and pubic hair, and enlarged clitorises. Some female athletes gave birth to children with club feet or other defects.

https://globalsportmatters.com/health/2019/11/07/ex-east-german-athletes-struggle-with-health-problems-due-to-the-consequences-of-ped-taking

And then to see doctors casually putting 12 year olds on testosterone for life! It's insane. The negative health effects don't disappear just because the female person in question does not want to be female.

https://www.transadvocate.com/ask-matt-do-trans-men-die-young_n_8713.htm

The author of the above article was dead from heart failure a year after writing it. And Kailey was only on testosterone in adulthood, not since middle school or high school. Now that research is actively being suppressed, I fear we won't know the true outcome of transition for natal females for many more decades.

worried19 · 2021-12-19T19:12:07+00:00

We need more QT posters!

Look at our demographics poll:

http://www.polljunkie.com/poll/pfipfo/gcdebatesqt/view

worried19 · 2021-12-19T18:56:32+00:00

Too confusing, plus TRAs don't want compromise. It's their way or the highway. They don't want to hear "female men can get pregnant." They will only accept "men can get pregnant."

worried19 · 2021-12-19T18:53:53+00:00

I was never physically dysphoric, but I've experienced what I guess would be termed "social dysphoria" since I was 3 years old. I'd define it as intense distress over conforming to gendered norms. For example, a tomboy might hate wearing a dress. But a socially dysphoric girl would be distressed to the point of depression or suicidal feelings.

worried19 · 2021-12-19T18:47:50+00:00

I don't think I've ever used the term "gender critical" offline. Maybe I've mentioned it to my partner. My main issue is that it seems like these topics rarely come up in my daily life. My social circles are very un-woke, and so is my workplace. If I came out at work, I would only be stating what at least 90% of my coworkers also believe. I'm sure they believe it for religious or traditional reasons, not for feminist ones, but the end result is the same.

worried19 · 2021-12-19T18:44:17+00:00

Makes sense, especially if you have a very QT social circle.

worried19 · 2021-12-19T18:42:59+00:00

Damn, you know society is in a bad way when actual transsexuals are afraid to speak out for fear of getting cancelled.

I can understand, though. I wouldn't risk my job if I were in your position either.

worried19 · 2021-12-15T04:34:08+00:00

Right, but I mean we aren't going to have police or security guards stationed at bathrooms. I just think this particular issue is a lost cause. Even if the GC side ends up winning overall, we may lose this particular fight.

worried19 · 2021-12-15T04:31:42+00:00

Have you thought about coming out on social media?

I think I might actually come out to my guy friend. J.K. Rowling is in the news again this week, so it seems like a good time to talk about her.

worried19 · 2021-12-15T04:30:00+00:00

True. I hope anyone who comes out on social media is mindful of that.

I almost wish I had social media so I could come out there, but all I've got is here, Ovarit, and Reddit, and I'm already out on these platforms.

worried19 · 2021-12-15T04:28:38+00:00

What about wearing a gender critical symbol or posting something that is subtly GC on social media?

worried19 · 2021-12-15T04:26:03+00:00

Thanks for all the information. From what I've gathered, it's much more dangerous for natal females to be on testosterone vs. natal males to be on estrogen, so perhaps that's why they don't monitor you quite as closely. I hope everything stays stable for you as far as that's concerned.

worried19 · 2021-12-15T04:20:59+00:00

I know GC people spread around horror stories of trans men's bones dissolving and testosterone putting them in wheelchairs,

I was thinking more of cancer and vaginal and uterine atrophy. I think the bone density problem is more of an issue with kids who have been on puberty blockers or people who have no estrogen production at all. I certainly hope you remain healthy, and I'm glad doctors are monitoring you. Do they just watch your testosterone levels, or are there other tests? How do you know if there's a problem developing with your uterus?

I don't consider transitioning to be anything close to "what society want", it's pretty obvious that I'd be treated better and respected more if I had not transitioned

Really? Surely you must pass 100% as a guy. I wish I could. I know I'd be treated a million times better by society. As it is, I pass as a guy only if people aren't looking too closely, and then when they realize I'm female I'm looked as some kind of GNC freak. I wish I could blend in, but that's obviously not in the cards. Do you really not think you have male-passing privilege?

GC people would stop calling me delusional and perverted

Well, I don't think you're delusional. You can certainly make your own choices in life, and you obviously are aware you were born female and don't deny it. Plus natal female people are very unlikely to be transitioning for sexual reasons, so you certainly aren't a pervert. I don't think GC people would say you were? They tend to reserve that for those they consider autogynephiles.

worried19 · 2021-12-15T04:12:13+00:00

I don't hate them "because" they're breasts, I just hate the way they feel and look on my own body. Not just because people were focusing on a very "female" feature when they focus on them, but also because they were uncomfortable and I didn't like they way the looked or felt.

But surely that's connected with them being a female secondary sex characteristic, given the other steps you've taken to transition? Most natal female people if they have large, uncomfortable breasts have a breast reduction, they don't remove them from their body entirely.

I don't personally have a lot of personal investment in the sanctity of the "natural human body".

Not everyone does, of course. I don't think I have that much personal investment in it. But at the same time, human bodies are not like legos. You can't just break off pieces willy nilly. There should be some ethical and health consideration for what you're doing. Not saying a double mastectomy is definitely off limits. Some women have them to reduce the risk of breast cancer, like Angelina Jolie did. In the end, adults can make their own decisions, but I also think the medical establishment should adhere to certain standards.

worried19 · 2021-12-12T04:35:19+00:00

I think it's a good idea, although it's already apparent that the mainstream media wants to twist it into something negative.

Not sure if I'm planning to come out to anyone, although I guess this would be a good day to find out where my gay guy friend stands on the issue.

worried19 · 2021-12-05T08:41:49+00:00

Ha, 4 months late, but I'm finally responding.

I don’t see this as thinking the female sex is inferior. Aggression does not mean better.

If one sex is aggressive towards the other sex, and that sex is presumed to enjoy being subordinate to them, that's inferiority. I don't see any way around that.

Women's Sexual Fantasies – The Latest Scientific Research

What do I make of this? Trauma from patriarchy, porn, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and childhood or adolescent exposure to inappropriate media.

Everything that is natural is not necessarily a moral good. I think that’s one of my starting points.

Sure, we would both agree on that. I just disagree that it is in any way natural for girls and women to want to be dominated and abused.

Specifically the straight crossdresser community is very thin. The community is very androphilic. It is often very based around sex with men and other gnc men. That’s super awkward as a straight man not attracted to other crossdressers. Online I got a lot of attention from men, even after saying I’m straight. There are a lot of assumptions. There can be an assumption that a straight crossdresser is a liar. Back to that pattern of gnc men being either gay or perverts.

Huh, that's interesting. Do you think the straight crossdresser community has been adversely affected by the increasing popularity of transition? I was under the impression the majority of crossdressers were straight, while most drag queens were gay. But maybe crossdressers have fallen by the wayside. Like Eddie Izzard. He used to be just a regular transvestite. Now he says he's trans.

There is a common refrain of “don’t let your crossdressing/sexuality” become your whole identity and I can see the good reasons and logic for that. But then you suppress and end up being a person that “springs” it on others. You drift into the closet only to find yourself around people who are not accepting. I realise now I ought to have placed it more central to my life. I accepted it when I was very young but that acceptance became internal and not external enough.

Do you think you would prefer a world where you could crossdress 24/7 and have it be totally accepted? Or do you prefer it only coming out in certain scenarios that you are able to preselect for? It sounds like it's more than a casual thing for you, but society doesn't allow you to express it.

Where I do find it more acceptable is the kink community, the fetish clubs. That is where crossdressing is more than tolerated, a straight crossdresser has a place not as part of gay culture but as a person outside sexual norms. There are also women there who appreciate gender non conformity in men and relationships.

I can see that. I have a hard time thinking about fetish clubs without feeling a sense of terror about the people involved in them. But I suppose for those who feel cast out from regular society, it would feel more like a refuge.

There are certainly women there who are dressing for sex in a way that turns themselves on.

Uh, I would assume so, since it's a fetish club. If they've got a fetish for leather or latex or something, dressing like that in a sexual environment would turn them on. That's why they go there in the first place.

Well obviously I think a “failed woman” is the wrong way of looking at it. I’d see you as embracing masculinity. That does not mean you need to embrace a transman identity. But that does not mean you can disconnect masculinity from men.

I don't see why not. Masculine women have a long history. There have always been women who preferred to "live like men." There would be more of them, I believe, if femininity was not forced on girls so heavily. You have to be strong and unusual to reject femininity as an adult woman, however tolerant society is (or was) about prepubescent tomboys.

But their gender expression is connected to their sexuality? There has to be some relationship.

Not everyone has a fetish like you do. A butch lesbian woman can dress in men's clothes without it being sexual for her. As for why she's butch, you'd have to ask her. I wouldn't speak on a lesbian's behalf. All I can say is that my gender expression is not connected to my sexuality, as far as I can tell.

But a lot of this is super common. The bdsm scene in my opinion is people theatrically expressing extremes forms of this.

Right, but if someone is unable to be aroused without imagining BDSM, that's a fetish. BDSM was never considered standard. Most people, even if they have "kinks," can still enjoy vanilla sex.

I just like female appreciation of my expression. It puts me in the mood and puts the right woman in the mood.

So it's the anticipation of being seen and appreciated by women that is the draw? It doesn't sound like it's a non-sexual activity for you then. Would you go to a park wearing like a sundress even if you knew there would not be any women there to admire you in it? Have you ever been dressed in women's clothing in public and not felt even partially aroused by the possibility? No judgment here, by the way. I'm just curious.

Really that’s what a lot of gender expression is about IMHO.

Uh, beg to disagree. Most women and men are not aroused by wearing ordinary clothing regardless of their orientation.

I don’t think you’re getting how harsh men are policed on gender.

No, I get it. But it's possible to find spaces that are more open. Especially in this day and age, right? Trans women walk right down the street in most cities and towns and no one accosts them.

Even small things will be judged by even liberal people. Tolerance does not mean people don’t act on it.

Sure, but who cares if they judge? I know people judge me. As long as they're not assaulting me, they can think what they want.

A man has to constantly police himself, especially a straight man.

People on the street don't know if you're gay or straight, transgender or simply a crossdresser. If a trans woman can be herself in public, why can't you? Do you think maybe you're held back by fear of social disapproval?

I have had women grab me at times. Pinch my bum, hand down my trousers.

Right, and it's a normal thing for a woman to grab a guy's ass or grab his junk. In a consensual context, of course. It's not some weird thing. You may think women do it less often, but they still do it.

Though growing up I did lack the PIV obsession that seemed to be the norm and expected from me as a boy. I wasn’t obsessed with sticking it in. Is that relevant? I still don’t know. All part of the unusual sexual behaviour.

Most guys are obsessed with sticking it in any available orifice, it seems. But you do enjoy PIV? It's not like you won't use your penis during sex?

But the women who are sexually passive?

I believe very few women are so passive that all they want to do is lie there. But even if they do, they're still enjoying stuff like intimacy, caressing, kissing, touching, and the physical sensations of sex.

By being with you he is experiencing something statistically unusual.

Sure, but do you think he's not a normal man in a sexual sense? I've asked him about this myself, actually, since I used to be so worried he would be judged negatively because of me. He says the way he sees it is that I'm a woman and he's a man and anyone who has a problem with that is just ignorant. I believe him. He's never shown any hesitance about us. I was always the one worried about what people would think.

You both sound active.

I'd say so.

I’d add rarely initiating sex but expecting it, is passive. As if initiating it, is a turn off, at the same time being annoyed if the other person does not initiate it.

Yeah, that's definitely neither of us.

I know I respond more to active pursuit than my active pursuit. It took me some time to realise this. Just not being wired the same way as the average straight man.

You like being seduced, I guess. Eh, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But at the same time, I don't get playing elaborate games. Like if I want sex, I'm not going to wait around for my partner to mention it.

That’s a wider point I’d make. I do see trans identities. I do see elements of myself as more accepted as female. But after looking a long time at the subject I remain seeing myself as a man. I don’t see myself as a woman sexually. I see myself as a crossdresser sexually. That is who I identify with no matter how good or bad that figure is. I can’t escape that.

Well, that's fair. I don't see any reason for you not to be a crossdresser. You're not negatively affecting anyone else. You're involving consenting partners. I don't think any BDSM-related stuff is healthy, but it doesn't sound like you go overboard with it. And you recognize biological reality. You're a man, even if you consider yourself a sexually unusual one.

worried19 · 2021-12-05T07:34:34+00:00

In 2031, I believe that the backlash resulting from affirmation only policies will have effectively ended medical child transition. I think there will probably be some holdouts who socially transition their children, but it will be much harder to put children on puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones or perform surgeries on them. I pray that will be the case. I also believe that the wave of ROGD will end and we will go back to at least pre-2015 levels of female transitioners.

I'm not sure what will happen with the rest of the issues, but I do believe trying to integrate natal males into women's sports and women's prisons will have turned out to be an untenable position. I believe organizations may develop workarounds, such as all trans wings in female prisons, or trans sports leagues. The bathroom issue I believe is long lost. There is simply no way to effectively police that. I believe it will end up in trans activists' favor.

worried19 · 2021-12-05T07:04:34+00:00

For me, there is no "reconciliation", there is no time I wanted my breasts. I remember wanting to scrape them off with a wood rasp from the moment they grew in 20+ years ago.

I never wanted mine either. I think a lot of people don't. But they just grew there, and after a period of alarm, I got used to them. There really wasn't any choice. Do you think there was ever a chance you could have become reconciled to them? Like if you'd been alone on a desert island, do you think your breasts would still have been a cause for hatred? I wonder about the origins of intense dysphoria.

worried19 · 2021-12-05T06:59:53+00:00

I'm glad you don't regret it. I assume you're also on testosterone? Have you had any complications from that? Do doctors have to monitor you pretty closely? Feel free not to answer if any of my questions are too personal.

I don't know if it's just a natural body mapping since we don't really have a lot of articulation/use of that area, so there isn't much sensory change to adjust to

I've heard that a lot of people come away from that surgery with no sensation, like their entire chest is just numb or a dead zone. Do you still have sensation in your chest and your nipples?

I was always extremely GNC and bisexual (it felt, for me, all connected - I didn't know why bodies had to be man/woman, why sexuality had to be oriented to man/woman, why my clothes and hair and presentation had to be man/woman ect. The more "pick and mix" I could be, the happier I was.)

I struggle to understand it also as a GNC person. I just consider my body my body. It's the one I got born with. But I don't feel like I have to align my body with what society wants. Surprisingly, for whatever reason, I have never hated my body. I suppose my rage was directed outward.

worried19 · 2021-12-05T06:52:44+00:00

Thanks for sharing. I'm definitely glad you have not suffered complications from the surgery and that you don't regret undergoing it.

I'm also curious about the estrogen. Have you had any negative health problems from that over the years? Do doctors monitor you pretty closely for life for potential complications, or is it more "hands off" after a certain period of time?

worried19 · 2021-12-05T06:49:04+00:00

That puts you in a very rare category. Metoidioplasty or phalloplasty? I'm glad you have no regrets. Have you suffered any negative health effects from the testosterone or surgeries? I've heard those genital surgeries in particular are prone to complications.

worried19 · 2021-12-05T06:44:26+00:00

The cultural stereotypes associated with men, I would assume. What's considered masculine style, masculine hobbies, etc.

She's a gender critical radical feminist, so she obviously must believe it to be independent of sex.

worried19 · 2021-11-24T03:39:47+00:00

Well, to each their own.

worried19 · 2021-11-23T03:21:21+00:00

That seems very cruel to me. Suicide is a murder of sorts, of one's self, and it leaves behind other victims, not just the person in pain.

worried19 · 2021-11-22T04:25:32+00:00

Same here. This is actually the one trans day I don't mind. Let's keep Transgender Day of Remembrance and get rid of the dozens of other pointless awareness days.

I just wish TRAs would be honest about things. Their credibility is near zero at this point. It's tough to have sympathy when you can't trust anything these activists say.

worried19 · 2021-11-22T04:21:21+00:00

Uh, speak for yourself. I'm not celebrating anyone's death. The TRA movement is toxic, but I don't wish death on any trans people. This kind of rhetoric can only harm our cause.

worried19