Both: What do you think about the NHS ending the gender-affirmation care model for youth in England?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

Huge news out of England.

https://segm.org/England-ends-gender-affirming-care

Like Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, they are now pulling back on affirmation and medicalization of children and teenagers.

GC and QT, what do you think about this development?

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[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

To say that I'm relieved is an understatement. It's inevitable that this will make its way to the USA. It's only a matter of time and a question of how many young lives will be irreparably damaged in the meantime.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Yes I do hope medical associations in the USA succumb to political pressure. That would be great! It's not like there is a MASSIVE movement in the US this exact second who want to eliminate vaccinations altogether, and it's not like they're likely going to win a branch of government this upcoming election.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Succumbing to political pressure is how we found ourselves in this mess! Trans activist’s have been pushing treatments on gender nonconforming and gender dysphoric children that aren’t backed by science because they feel like those are the treatments they would have wanted when all data indicates people who present with gender dysphoria during or after puberty are a different group! Finland, Sweden, and Denmark have been doing these treatments longer than the U.S. has and have found watchful waiting has better outcomes. Some gender dysphoric children will persist into adulthood, but most desist during puberty if they go through it naturally and aren’t affirmed. The treatment that trans activists are pushing does real harm to children, many of whom would grow up to be LGB, and I’m proud to stand with women, feminists, and LGB people in opposing it. I just hope that we return to sanity sooner rather than later so fewer kids are harmed. It’s heartbreaking. :(

[–][deleted]  (13 children)

[removed]

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    Do you really think I hate trans people? I’m literally a transsexual and was a feminine boy who had dysphoria. My beliefs about are very much informed by compassion and empathy toward children experiencing those things.

    [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    Let me answer your question with a question and ask: Do you believe that any group, especially a marginalized one, can be self-hating?

    And I'm glad your beliefs are informed by 'compassion', I just wish they were informed by science instead. Plenty of christians want to ban homosexuality out of 'compassion', whether or not it's informed well, well-meaning, or downright insidious, that's

    Not

    An

    Argument

    oops and apologies that the timing is awful i'd love to have more of this conversation with you right now but I have to leave for a 10 hour shift so, uh, sorry, I'll get back to you when i get back to you.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    I do believe the science and that’s why I hold the position I do. The studies being pushed to support your position are seeking those outcomes and, as a result, usually use very flawed methods. The first one you linked doesn’t even have a control group…

    I wish you wouldn’t continue use the right wing or christians in your comments to try to tarnish us. I am not right wing, christian, or homophobic and I don’t agree with those people. I’m also not a reactionary so I won’t support or oppose things based on whether people I don’t like support or oppose them.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Hear, hear, PATM. You and I have had our differences, but I am with you 1000% on this. Anyone who has read our posts since Saidit was launched will know that neither one of us is coming to the issue of the safeguarding and protection of kids with gender dysphoria from an anti-science, right-wing, christian or homophobic perspective.

    I happen to have a bunch of houseguests at my place this weekend for the memorial service of a longterm friend who died several weeks ago. Eight out of my 10 houseguests are homosexual. The other two are bisexual. Our deceased friend and his partner are/were gay men. We all first met in the 1970s and 80s. Many of us met and became close through the AIDS activist orgs Gay Men's Health Crisis and ACT UP.

    [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    The studies being pushed to support your position are seeking those outcomes and, as a result, usually use very flawed methods. The first one you linked doesn’t even have a control group…

    Okay, so I'm going to try and be as nice as possible when I say, peaking, that this kind of thing right here? This makes everything else you say completely irrelevant. It's the kind of confident incorrectness that highschool kids boast when they think they're smarter than everyone else because they're insanely confident and insanely bad at self-reflection. Your smoking gun, your proof that these studies "use very flawed methods", is that a COHORT study doesn't have a control group. I mean, yes, pardon my French but no shit Sherlock. That's how cohort studies work. You skimmed a study in an attempt to prove that you were right, and didn't even bother to ask yourself "is this really as strong an argument as I think it is?" And then you posted it anyways.

    Like explain how and why anything else you say should be taken seriously when you so clearly don't care about objectivity?

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I guess it was my mistake in assuming you were actually providing studies that would support your point. A cohort study without a control group that follows up for one year doesn’t tell us anything.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Actually, they ["trans kids'"] often just kill themselves!

    If this is the case, how come there are never any news stories, funerals, memorial services, obituaries, police reports, coroner's reports or social media post about these tragic deaths the children you call trans and claim are committing suicide in droves?

    In the US and most other countries with functioning governments, all unexplained deaths of anyone of any age - but particularly of children - that occur and could possibly be a suicide or homicide have to be thoroughly investigated by police and a coroner/medical examiner before a death certificate is issued and the corpse/body is released to the family for burial or cremation. All deaths that occur outside of hospitals, nursing homes and hospices are automatically considered suspicious and get thorough investigation by police and medical examiners. (I can attest to this personally because several of my family members have died at home.)

    But even many deaths that occur within health care facilities get the same sort of scrutiny.

    So if all these kids are killing themselves, how come their deaths are always ignored by all the authorities in charge of investigating suspicious and untimely deaths?

    [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Admittedly, being tongue in cheek has bit me in the ass, and I should have said ATTEMPTED to kill themselves. Because they do. Teens in general commit suicide at rates high enough that it's the number two cause of death among them. So either A: kids transitioning actually DECREASES the suicide rate from the statistical average of their base group, which isn't the win you think it is, or B (and hint, it's B): you don't understand statistics and their correlation to anecdotal evidence. I'm sorry you don't see news articles every day that trans kids are killing themselves? That doesn't change reality. You realize that they're functionally a statistically insignificant group, right? There just aren't enough of them to confidently say that X of them (roughly 100, if you extrapolate from the US suicide statistics and account for higher rates of suicidal ideation) will kill themselves any given year, because the rate of variance is too high to pin down to such a small sample size. And that's not per 100000, that's per ALL of them. To put it in perspective, 15 teens (age 15-19) per 100000 will kill themselves in any given year. There are about 20 million kids in that age group. Which means that on average, 3000 teens kill themselves every year.

    And you can't link me stories for all of them. Or even a third of them. Because, shocker, generally the families of deceased DON'T want their children's death to be publicized for the world to see.

    And on top of all of this, we're not even accounting for the fact that rates of suicidal ideation (and, therefore, actual suicides) are driven up by unsupportive parents who have zero desire for their children to be considered trans by ANYONE, because they, like you, believe trans kids don't exist. Seriously, this alone should be the smoking gun for you, YOU FUCKING SAID IT YOURSELF, but your head is so in the sand that you can't possibly imagine that any belief you hold might cause actual, tangible harm.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    There's no such thing as "trans kids." There are kids with a variety of mental health and social adjustment problems who have been and are being labelled "trans" by the adults in their lives.

    [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Just, completely, factually incorrect. I transitioned behind my parent's back, I did so growing up in an extremely conservative part of the country at a time where even in the media trans people just weren't a thing (so I had no trans icons to follow in the footsteps of). I was, quite literally, a kid who was trans. Trans kid. You live in your own little bubble but the real world EXISTS around you, please, I am begging you, stop.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [removed]

      [–]beris😎[M] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      They are banned, the rules still apply to the rest of you. No personal attacks.

      [–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      most desist during puberty if they go through it naturally and aren’t affirmed.

      I honestly wish there was a better way to make gender nonconformity feel normal than justifying it with "Yes, you're actually the opposite sex and we gotta get you medication and amputations asap for your disease of having a 100% normal and healthy body", or telling the kid that they should just do whatever they want, completely ignoring the patriarchal pressures molding and pressuring them in the process. GC should put more effort into discussing what healthy, widespread and normalised gender nonconformity would look like, instead of treating it as something only gay people would want to engage in.

      It sucks that gender nonconformity isn't the norm, and waving off those feelings of alienation and hurt caused by the toxic gender roles as just a part of growing up, or, even worse, something to grow out of once you start presenting "normally", isn't really an adequate alternative.

      [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

      This is really wonderful news!!! I really hope more countries start taking a similar approach. I worry the USA might be one of the last because of how money driven everything is here.

      Even if some kids grow up to be transsexual, most will grow out of it and become comfortable with their natural bodies. It is so much better than surgery and a lifetime of hormones. If someone still has to transition to be okay after puberty, they will be able to make that decision. Transitioning has so many downsides, I just can’t understand why so many seem to want to push it on kids.

      [–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

      Also, it's so much better for people who decide to undergo medical transition to do so only after they've gone through full sexual and brain development during and after puberty of adolescence. It breaks my heart that kids put on "puberty blockers" followed by cross-sex Big Pharma hormones like Jazz Jennings not only have been rendered sterile, but they've been left without the capacity have adult libido, adult sexual pleasure and orgasm - and their overall cognitive abilities appear to have been permanently impaired as well.

      I am not usually a "conspiracy theorist," but I've come to conclude that some very creepy, sinister people are behind the campaign to push transition on kids. Of course, not everyone who supports transition of kids and minor teens is doing so for nefarious reasons. Some people involved in this are naive, superficially well-meaning "useful idiots." But the big impetus is coming from some real creeps and lunatics.

      [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

      useful idiots

      Pot, meet kettle? I mean it's not like every terf on twitter simps for JK Rowling more than her actual fans do. Remind me, was she the one who wrote about goblin bankers with big noses? Or slaves that like to be slaves? Or was she the one who joined the radfem movement in the UK and immediately got cozy with neo-conservative christian fundamentalists under the guise of 'women's rights'. I'm sure worshiping the ground a literal billionaire walks on is a truly feminist act.

      And I mean it's not like it's just her, the entire movement in the UK has been subsumed by women who spew their GC buzzwords regardless of whether they actually believe it or not and they'll have a horde of men and women at their beck and call to defend them. I mean Kathleen Stock and Alisson Bailey are both enamoured with Kemi Badenoch, who voted against abortion clinic protections and abstained from voting on gay marriage. And her husband is a political christian fundamentalist. I WONDER IF SHE REALLY CARES ABOUT WOMENS RIGHTS! (she doesn't)

      As for sounding like a conspiracy theorist: Yes. You are one. You've got literally no proof besides 'it's just how i feel', you have a theory, and it's about a conspiracy. You are a conspiracy theorist.

      [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

      Holy strawmen Batman!

      [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (12 children)

      "I have no functional response to the fact that my entire movement has been overtaken by traditionalist extremists who want to take away my rights"

      You're the definition of a useful idiot.

      [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

      Pointing out the glaring flaw in your attack is not idiocy. Do you have anything to contribute other than ranting and raving?

      [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

      House... the term 'useful idiot' does not mean you are LITERALLY an idiot. It's a bit of a mean-spirited derogatory insult coined in vernacular to mean something else, and since MT decided that was the term she was going to use, it sort of sets the tone, don't you think?

      From Webster: a naive or credulous person who can be manipulated or exploited to advance a cause or political agenda.

      As for the 'glaring flaw', enlighten me, O Wise One. MT called people who care about the health and wellbeing of children with dysphoria 'useful idiots' in unknowing cohorts with some cabal of, and I quote, 'some very creepy, sinister people'. Very ominous and spooky, plus a bit silly because it sounds word for word like something Trump would say, but we have fun here. Setting aside the fact that I'm pretty sure the voices in my head are NOT coming from a third party out to trans the kids, I pointed out that your wild and wacky movement is literally currently being overtaken by theocratic facists who are using your rhetoric and your bodies as fodder to build themselves into positions of wealth and power. Radical feminists pushed hard to put people in power in the UK who are ACTIVELY looking to strip away women's rights. Hence, useful idiots. Such as yourself.

      [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

      I am aware of the phrase, thanks for yet another unnecessary lecture though. My response was to your tone, which reeks of misplaced exasperation and the assumption that I am an idiot.

      The glaring flaw is the strawmen I mentioned. Until you can respond to the points I made without devolving into a tirade of insults I’m going to ignore you again and assume you are here to scream into the wind as per usual.

      [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      "I have no functional response to the fact that my entire movement has been overtaken by traditionalist extremists who want to take away my rights"

      You're the definition of a useful idiot.

      And you responded:

      Pointing out the glaring flaw in your attack is not idiocy

      No offense house but I don't for a second believe you were aware of the phrase, there is nothing at all in my post you're responding to calling you an idiot unless you literally believe that being called a useful idiot means you are being called an idiot.

      The glaring flaw is the strawmen I mentioned. Until you can respond to the points I made

      Again, you said:

      Holy strawmen Batman!

      That's not a point being made, that's not "strawmen" being mentioned in any way except abstractly, that's you showing up unannounced and gesticulating wildly at everything while exclaiming "Strawman! Strawman!".

      Oh I missed you house, I think we'd get along great if you weren't so full of yourself and I wasn't so full of myself.

      [–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      the term 'useful idiot' does not mean you are LITERALLY an idiot. It's a bit of a mean-spirited derogatory insult coined in vernacular to mean something else, and since MT decided that was the term she was going to use, it sort of sets the tone, don't you think?

      From Webster: a naive or credulous person who can be manipulated or exploited to advance a cause or political agenda.

      I used the term "useful idiots" fully aware of its meaning. I stand by my statements.

      MT called people who care about the health and wellbeing of children with dysphoria 'useful idiots' in unknowing cohorts with some cabal of, and I quote, 'some very creepy, sinister people'.

      Wut? I did not say

      "people who care about the health and wellbeing of children with dysphoria" are all useful idiots."

      On the contrary, I said something very different, namely:

      not everyone who supports [social and medical] transition of kids and minor teens is doing so for nefarious reasons. Some people involved in this are naive, superficially well-meaning "useful idiots."

      You are making a profound error in assuming that

      people who care about the health and wellbeing of children with dysphoria

      are the same as the people who promote social and medical transition of those children.

      I and many other adults with experience raising our own children and who have professional experience in areas such as child development, youth education, pediatric and adolescent health care, counseling, youth sports, etc. care very much about the health and wellbeing of children with dysphoria. Because we care so much, we do not support social and medical transition of children and adolescent minors with dysphoria.

      I think if you were to go through my post history on this sub, you'd find that I am pretty well informed, fairly measured in my views and that I choose my words very carefully. I care very much about the health and wellbeing of children of both sexes.

      Sorry, but your posts on this thread strike me as the ravings of someone off his/her head and meds.

      [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I used the term "useful idiots" fully aware of its meaning. I stand by my statements.

      I am aware. House did not understand the term, so I explained it for her sake, not yours. All I was claiming was that you 'set the tone' by using it.

      Wut? I did not say [people who care about the health and wellbeing of children with dysphoria" are all useful idiots.]

      You did though, you just don't think you did because you don't believe in the objective reality the evidence regarding transition and dysphoria in minors tells.

      I and many other adults with experience raising our own children

      Cool, doesn't change the fact that overwhelming evidence disagrees with you.

      Sorry, but your posts on this thread strike me as the ravings of someone off his/her head and meds.

      You posted an unironic conspiracy theory about a trans cabal using people in favour of "push[ing] transition on kids" evidence-based medicine to further their trans agenda. Like I don't know how to tell you this but you can't really say that and expect to be taken seriously. I'm admittedly ranting a bit, but why should I be coherent. I tried that before and was gaslit straight on out of here. At least when I ramble about how unbelievably psychotic your (colloquial) views are I'm having fun with it. And that's all that matters at the end of the day - I'm going to have fun with it. Because I sure as shit am not going to convince any of you to unbury your heads.

      [–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      You posted an unironic conspiracy theory about a trans cabal using people in favour of "push[ing] transition on kids" evidence-based medicine to further their trans agenda.

      I never mentioned a "trans cabal" pushing "their trans agenda." I said

      I've come to conclude that some very creepy, sinister people are behind the campaign to push transition on kids.

      I never said that the creepy, sinister people behind this are trans. That's on you mate.

      I think many of the creepy, sinister people behind this are "cis" men like Norman Spack and "cis" women like Tandy Aye. I think many of the creepy, sinister people behind this are "cis" child abusing mothers like Susie Green, Jeanette Jennings and Kim Shappley. I think many of the creepy, sinister people behind this are the "cis" men who run Big Pharma, and the many "cis" men who are pedophiles and defenders of pedophilia like the recently-resigned trustee of Mermaids, Jacob Breslow; Rüdiger Lautmann, author of "Lust for Children;" and Peter Tatchell.

      [–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Remind me, was she the one who wrote about goblin bankers with big noses? Or slaves that like to be slaves?

      I find it ironic that you're saying that while using the misogynistic manosphere meme "simp". Let me guess, you also happily use "bitch" as well?

      I'm sure worshiping the ground a literal billionaire walks on is a truly feminist act.

      As opposed to worshipping male billionaires who transition and now get treated as poor women who've been oppressed and traumatised by a lifetime misogyny, and also examples of female excellence and achievement?

      Women being rich and using their influence to further women's rights is in no way contrary to feminism. Trying to get women to be happy with men's scraps because boo capitalism and "really it's all about class anyways" is a nice trick, but doesn't really work in radfem spaces.

      Also, liberal and especially trans spaces are filled to the brim with misogyny. After all, statements about brainsex, or straight up gender stereotypes as well as denial of patriarchal influences are normal in these spaces, and frequently you'll have male MRAs or "egalitarians" get gender-validated because they rub their dicks to sissification anime porn.

      [–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      Overall, I think it's a great development in the right direction, though I've some concerns:

      1. They've not explictly said "cross-sex" hormones will be reserved for research settings.

      2. The stuff with teens and "social transition". Even if they have included informed consent (and we all know how well that went), they've forgotten that plenty of this stuff envolves the participation of other people, who apparently have no say on this.

      3. The fact that it still uses ideological terms like "gender incongruence", which I guess is a result of them focusing on minors. And I think, it's about time to start rethinking this whole gender dysphoria stuff and its treatment from zero.

      I'd like to say that I hope my country followed this, but I'd be lying. Honestly, I'm fed up, and not only about this issue. If we limited to change course just because developed countries like England or Sweden did, then it'd mean we didn't learned any lesson (and imo, they don't go far enough, anyway). I wan't my fellow country(wo)men stop copying whatever the West is doing and figure out this is all a big scam on their own. And Western countries trying to impose this stuff (along many others) on us can f*** off, sorry, not sorry.

      [–]ncosenational💊 sovereign 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Inevitable and good.

      https://sputniknews.com/20200114/no-idea-why-this-is-happening-norway-sees-spike-in-young-girls-up-for-sex-change-1078030150.html

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/

      ^ Male hormones cause irreversible changes in females and they can take them any time in their life. It’s unethical to medically trans young females.

      Most kids dysphoric before puberty will grow out of it and I doubt parents will want to trans the ones who don’t know in time to trans before puberty (agps- the only ppl in the world who can claim they would “benefit” from pre puberty trans), which trans activists/men trapped in mens bodies admit will require grooming them to think they need to do it. I am not trying to edit this but I mean men trapped in mens bodies advocates that parents of agps catch the agp before puberty and encourage their non dysphoric child to intensify his “sexuality” before puberty so he can decide to trans before puberty. It’s crazy like who will do that and it violates the principle of not sexually grooming children.

      Transing kids will go the way of the lobotomy like it should. A related concern is what various movements trying to take advantage of this inevitability will try to gain by piggybacking.

      Sorry I didn’t try to edit this.

      But I did add stuff. This isn’t a vaccine - it’s ur subjective claims ab ur mental state and beliefs - and it isn’t science. Pro pedosadist activists try to say their decriminalization policies are science and we have to go along w that too.

      There are other bigger forces who stand to benefit but I mean in terms of the benefits that are given as the reason to trans kids… they will pass better as adults. The actual benefits seem to be economic so you can’t blame agps really.

      [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

      I disagree with the one about not allowing your kid to wear clothes of the opposite gender. I also disagree with the advice about not allowing kids to socially transition. Unlike medical interventions, pronouns and identities are not permanent. But I do think we should be cautious in allowing kids to medically transition. We don't allow kids to get tattoos. I think this is no different and if you are old enough to get a tattoo (even with parental consent) then you are old enough to start hormones.

      [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      It doesn’t say anything about childrens clothing. Half the problem with y’all would disappear if you didn’t assign clothing a sex in the first place.

      Imagine if children just picked childrens clothes they liked because the adults finally recognised that a preference for pink or blue means absolutely nothing about who or what the child is.

      Seems infinitely better than kids torturing themselves because they don’t fit the absolutely stupid narrative about boy things and girl things.

      [–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

      Can you point to the part in the SEGM report and/or the NHS where they mention

      not allowing your kid to wear clothes of the opposite gender.

      Coz I missed it.

      BTW, I think we should move beyond the idea that little kid's clothes have "gender" and should be starkly different depending on children's sex. Kids of both sexes should be allowed to wear what they want. I wore my older brother's clothes after he died when we were little kids, and as I grew up I and all the kids I knew wore many unisex clothes - T shirts, turtlenecks, button-downs, pullovers, jeans, cords, overalls, sneakers, wellies/galoshes, hiking boots, Doc Martens, clogs, sweat pants, sweat shirts and hoodies, various sports gear, bomber jackets, puffer coats, overcoats, trench coats, rain slicks and so on. When I was in HS, I and many girls I knew did much of our clothes shopping in US Army Navy Surplus stores - we wore (men's) sailor's pants, tops, pea coats, polar jackets, army fatigues, men's Levi's...

      When my own son was little, he loved trying on my clothes, shoes and accessories and dressing up in all sorts of garb considered "feminine" and "girly." I didn't care, neither did his dad. For a time when he was 5, my son's favorite outfit was a peculiar getup consisting of a Spider Man eye mask along with a pink tutu over baggy surfer shorts and a Gap T-shirt to which he had me attach (with binder clips from Staples, LOL) a linen dish cloth at the shoulders so the dish cloth flowed like a cape. The linen dish cloth, a gift my dad and his wife brought us from a trip to Ireland, had drawn/painted images on it of items used in Catholic church rituals that my 5 year-old son mistakenly thought were weapons and talismans signifying and conferring superpowers. When we walked down the street with him dressed like that, his getup brought smiles of amusement and appreciation to the faces of many passersby of all ages from all walks of life - many of whom would make approving remarks such as, "right on, kid" and "you do you, champ" and "good job, mom."

      IMO, what is damaging to kids is telling them that if they like a particular kind of clothing - or toys - or they have interests and personality traits hat aren't exactly in keeping with the narrow, strict, regressive sex stereotypes widely associated with their sex - and which are confining and chafing to members of both sexes - it means they have the mind, psyche, soul, inner essence, feelings or "gender identity" of the opposite sex and must have somehow been "born in the wrong body."

      I also disagree with the advice about not allowing kids to socially transition. Unlike medical interventions, pronouns and identities are not permanent.

      Have you read the interim Cass report and other information about this? True, pronouns, identities, and identity labels chosen and put on kids at an early age are not permanent. But when children adopt an opposite-sex gender identity - or, more likely, they have an opposite-sex gender identity imposed on them by their parents and the other important adults in their lives as has happened to so many people as toddlers, pre-schoolers and early schoolers like Jackie Green, Jazz Jennings, Kai Shappley, Trinity Neal and Penelope Patterson - and these children's opposite-sex gender identities are announced to everyone they personally know and to the whole world on social media too - it becomes very difficult to nigh impossible for these children to express doubts and reverse course. Many youngsters who are socially transitioned as kids and have been constantly praised and celebrated for being "trans" derive their whole sense of self and sense of self-worth from their special status as "trans" children. And many of the parents of these kids base and obtain their own social identities, sense of self-worth, standing in the world and even their professional careers on being the mums/parents of a "trans child."

      Kids like Jackie Green, Jazz Jennings, Kai Shappley, Trinity Neal, Penelope Patterson grow/grew up under huge parental and social pressure to continue identifying as "trans" to keep the adults in their lives, particularly their mums, happy. Many are acutely aware that if they desisted from "identifying as" the opposite sex, then their parents/mothers would be devastated and their parents/mothers would "lose face" and social standing. They have also been indoctrinated into believing that if they stop "identifying as" the opposite sex, they will be letting down other "trans kids" and "the LGBTQ+ community," fueling "transphobia," and encouraging "transphobic violence" and "hate" that will lead to mass suicides and mass murders of "trans people."

      [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

      Can you point to the part in the SEGM report and/or the NHS where they mention not allowing your kid to wear clothes of the opposite gender. Coz I missed it.

      According to Daily Mail, the new NHS draft guidelines will also discourage the act of children dressing in clothes of the opposite sex.

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11341001/NHS-discourage-social-transitioning-gender-questioning-children.html

      IMO, what is damaging to kids is telling them that if they like a particular kind of clothing - or toys - or they have interests and personality traits hat aren't exactly in keeping with the narrow, strict, regressive sex stereotypes widely associated with their sex - and which are confining and chafing to members of both sexes - it means they have the mind, psyche, soul, inner essence, feelings or "gender identity" of the opposite sex and must have somehow been "born in the wrong body."

      I agree but most TRAs are not doing this.

      Have you read the interim Cass report and other information about this?

      I just googled this as I've never heard of it and while I didn't read the entire report I did read the summary of key points.

      https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

      True, pronouns, identities, and identity labels chosen and put on kids at an early age are not permanent. But when children adopt an opposite-sex gender identity - or, more likely, they have an opposite-sex gender identity imposed on them by their parents and the other important adults in their lives as has happened to so many people as toddlers, pre-schoolers and early schoolers like Jackie Green, Jazz Jennings, Kai Shappley, Trinity Neal and Penelope Patterson - and these children's opposite-sex gender identities are announced to everyone they personally know and to the whole world on social media too - it becomes very difficult to nigh impossible for these children to express doubts and reverse course. Many youngsters who are socially transitioned as kids and have been constantly praised and celebrated for being "trans" derive their whole sense of self and sense of self-worth from their special status as "trans" children. And many of the parents of these kids base and obtain their own social identities, sense of self-worth, standing in the world and even their professional careers from being the mums/parents of a "trans child."

      Kids like Jackie Green, Jazz Jennings, Kai Shappley, Trinity Neal, Penelope Patterson grow/grew up under huge parental and social pressure to continue identifying as "trans" to keep the adults in their lives, particularly their mums, happy. Many are acutely aware that if they desisted from "identifying as" the opposite sex, then their parents/mothers would be devastated and their parents/mothers would "lose face" and social standing.

      I personally think when you become an adult you are personally responsible for yourself and who you have contact with. Many adults who were never trans have parents that are overbearing, but ultimately they stand up to their parents and tell them no. This happens frequently on r/raisedbynarcissists. Many adults also cut contact with toxic parents. This is no different.

      What is more likely to happen is parents are not accepting of their childs trans identity. That’s why many kids

      They have also been indoctrinated into believing that if they stop "identifying as" the opposite sex, they will be letting down other "trans kids" and "the LGBTQ+ community," fueling "transphobia," and encouraging "transphobic violence" and "hate" that will lead to mass suicides and mass murders of "trans people."

      That's not hat happens. If you want to stop identifying as trans, go ahead.

      [–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      You initially said

      I disagree with the one about not allowing your kid to wear clothes of the opposite gender.

      Which prompted me to ask

      Can you point to the part in the SEGM report and/or the NHS [guidance] where they mention not allowing your kid to wear clothes of the opposite gender. Coz I missed it.

      To which you have now responded,

      According to Daily Mail, the new NHS draft guidelines will also discourage the act of children dressing in clothes of the opposite sex.

      Huh? Since when can a story in the Daily Mail be taken as an accurate reflection of what the NHS guidance the SEGM report say?

      I asked if you have read the interim Cass report. In response you say

      I just googled this as I've never heard of it and while I didn't read the entire report I did read the summary of key points.

      No offense, but if you've never heard of the Cass investigation, the Cass report and can't be bothered even to read the interim Cass report in its entirety, then you're just admitting that you are very poorly informed about the issues around "child transition" and aren't curious, interested or caring enough about the unfortunate kids being sucked into gender ideology and being egregiously abused by adults in the pursuit of "child transition" to become fully informed.

      You initially said

      I also disagree with the advice about not allowing kids to socially transition. Unlike medical interventions, pronouns and identities are not permanent.

      In response, I gave a long thoughtful comment illustrating that, as the Cass report says, "socially transitioning" of children is "not a neutral act." Rather it's an act that locks kids into a claimed gender identity at a very early age and makes it very difficult for those kids to desist, dial back and reverse course.

      But instead of addressing any of the points I raised about children who are socially transitioned when they are toddlers and very young kids years before puberty of adolescence, you come back with

      I personally think when you become an adult you are personally responsible for yourself and who you have contact with.

      WTF? What does your view about adults have to do with the pre-pubescent children and minor age adolescents under discussion and at issue here? These kids are all living either in their parents' homes or in state care. They have no choice about who they have contact with. Why are you making it seem that toddlers, pre-schoolers, kids in primary school and young adolescents should be considered just as "personally responsible" for themselves and who they have contact with as full-grown adults?

      You deny what is happening, and has happened, to vulnerable children transitioned by their parents by dismissing what I said about the youngsters whom I mentioned by name out of hand as though I what I said has so little merit that it's not worth addressing. Instead, without any evidence you blithely assert

      What is more likely to happen is parents are not accepting of their childs trans identity

      Then you go on to deny that children transitioned by their parents and the other important adult authority figures in their lives are under any pressure to continue identifying as trans in order to please their parents and the other adults who are invested in these kids claiming to be trans.

      That's not hat happens. If you want to stop identifying as trans, go ahead.

      How on earth can Kai Shappley at age 11 stop identifying as trans when Kai's entire social identity and Kai's mother's whole life, social identity, social standing and job are based on her being the mother of a "trans child"? Kim Shappley, Kai's mom, has been very open about how starting when Kai was 18 months old, she spent several years repeatedly hitting, yelling at, punishing, praying over, shaming and depriving Kai for liking "girl toys" and "girl clothes" and for "acting girly." Because Kim S is a right-wing Christian fundamentalist and raging homophobe who feared that her toddler son's tastes and behavior indicated he might grow up to be gay - a prospect that filled homophobe mom with horror and panic over what others might think about her.

      Now Kim works as a paid "gender activist" who trots Kai around the country and before the cameras so he can be a "trans child" show pony and mouthpiece for canned propaganda written by adult trans activists. How can Kai simply stop identifying as trans now? You really think Kai isn't fully aware that desisting from a trans identity would most likely result in Kai's mom going ballistic and in Kai being beaten, shamed, punished, bullied and deprived by mum and others in Kai's life all over again?

      Your flip, callous attitude and total denial of what is happening, and has happened, to vulnerable children transitioned by their parents is gob-smacking.

      [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      Huh? Since when can a story in the Daily Mail be taken as an accurate reflection of what the NHS guidance the SEGM report say?

      I concede.

      In response, I gave a long thoughtful comment illustrating that, as the Cass report says, "socially transitioning" of children is "not a neutral act." Rather it's an act that locks kids into a claimed gender identity at a very early age and makes it very difficult for those kids to desist, dial back and reverse course.

      I didn't read the entire Cass report because it's 100 pages but I found the part where they said socially transitioning of children is not a neutral act. That next page says "‘doing nothing’ cannot be considered a neutral act." So if your 4 year old kid who was AMAB repeatedly says "I'm a girl" doing nothing and ignoring it is not a neutral act either.

      The other thing is I disagree with the idea that socially transitioning kids into a claimed gender identity at a very early age and makes it very difficult for those kids to desist. Just like a child who was assigned male at birth can repeatedly say "I'm a girl" and ask others to use she/her pronouns, that same child can claim "I'm a boy" and ask others to use he/him pronouns. I don't think kids socially transitioned are any more "locked-in" than kids who are told their gender is their birth sex and others use corresponding pronouns.

      How on earth can Kai Shappley at age 11 stop identifying as trans when Kai's entire social identity and Kai's mother's whole life, social identity, social standing and job are based on her being the mother of a "trans child"? Kim Shappley, Kai's mom, has been very open about how starting when Kai was 18 months old, she spent several years repeatedly hitting, yelling at, punishing, praying over, shaming and depriving Kai for liking "girl toys" and "girl clothes" and for "acting girly." Because Kim S is a right-wing Christian fundamentalist and raging homophobe who feared that her toddler son's tastes and behavior indicated he might grow up to be gay - a prospect that filled homophobe mom with horror and panic over what others might think about her.

      Now Kim works as a paid "gender activist" who trots Kai around the country and before the cameras so he can be a "trans child" show pony and mouthpiece for canned propaganda written by adult trans activists. How can Kai simply stop identifying as trans now? You really think Kai isn't fully aware that desisting from a trans identity would most likely result in Kai's mom going ballistic and in Kai being beaten, shamed, punished, bullied and deprived by mum and others in Kai's life all over again?

      How do you know that Kim repeatedly hits, yells at, punishes and shames Kai? Is there any evidence of this?

      [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I don't think kids socially transitioned are any more "locked-in" than kids who are told their gender is their birth sex and others use corresponding pronouns.

      I don’t think it is more “locked-in” either, but I think it matters what you think is better too. Many of us feel like it is better for someone to be able to live as their sex and not have to alter their bodies in ways that sterilize them, decrease their life expectancy, and require permanent medication. If someone can successfully be “locked-in” to accepting their sex, that seems like a good outcome. If someone needs to transition to be okay, trust me, no amount of not affirming will make that go away. That person will still be able to transition, but we won’t be creating life-long medical patients from people who would have otherwise desisted. That’s how I feel about it at least. Transition should be treated as the last resort so it’s dangerous to do social transition at early ages because it leads to medicalization almost all the time. That isn’t what we should want for kids and it’s super sus to me that many seem to want that.

      [–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      How do you know that Kim repeatedly hits, yells at, punishes and shames Kai? Is there any evidence of this?

      There is plenty of evidence for what happened to Kai. The child's own mother has admitted in multiple media interviews that she beat Kai for gender nonconformity as a toddler.

      Kimberly turned to a DIY form of conversion therapy. She dressed Kai in camouflage and held her down to cut her blond hair into a flattop. Since most of the family’s seven children are boys—Kimberly has one adult daughter—there were no “girl toys” at home, but Kimberly asked the Christian daycare Kai attended to hide any baby dolls from her as well. When Kai turned her T-shirts into skirts or insisted she was a girl, Kimberly spanked her. When Kai asked for a Minnie Mouse birthday cake, Kimberly bought her one with Mickey.

      “No matter how much punishment this kid got, you couldn’t beat it out of her,” Kimberly said. “You couldn’t pray it out, I couldn’t cast it out.”

      https://splinternews.com/she-was-an-ultraconservative-texas-christian-then-kai-1793859323

      "I remember thinking even before Kai was 3, this kid might be gay....& I thought that cannot happen...would not happen. We started praying fervently. Prayers turned into googling conversion therapy, and how can we implement these techniques at home to make Kai not be like this."

      "Putting her in timeout for acting like a girl...for stealing girl toys. Spanking her...REALLY spanking her, every time she said mommy you know I'm a girl."

      https://archive.is/zWlen

      Not all parents of transitioned children are physically abusive. While horrible in other ways, I don't believe Jazz Jennings' parents ever beat their child. But it makes me absolutely sick to see people like the Shappleys fawned over in the media. What they did constitutes blatant child abuse.

      [–]womanual 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Many are acutely aware that if they desisted from "identifying as" the opposite sex, then their parents/mothers would be devastated and their parents/mothers would "lose face" and social standing.

      Why put it down to women/mothers? Fathers are just as equally likely, if not more likely, to pull this shit.

      [–]womanual 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      It's about time!

      [–]pollyesther 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      This is good news.