Both: What do you think about the NHS ending the gender-affirmation care model for youth in England?

a_green_squid · 2022-10-29T17:28:48+00:00

I guess it was my mistake in assuming you were actually providing studies that would support your point. A cohort study without a control group that follows up for one year doesn’t tell us anything.

Yeah, I get it, you're actually completely incapable of critical thinking. Let me dumb it down for you because jesus christ I can't even comprehend how you live like this.

It is a cohort study. They do not HAVE control groups. It is literally just an observation of a subject at multiple specific times to track changes in those subjects.

A cohort study without a control group that follows up for one year doesn’t tell us anything.

It tells us that there are clear signs that transition is directly impactful on the short-term, immediate mental well being of dysphoric youth. It does not NEED a control group because there is nothing to control for. Because, yes, that is how cohort studies fucking work.

I can't fucking interact with you because you lack the fundamental understanding of how scientific literature and basic fucking data collection work. Actually just fucking ban me I can't handle you bozos anymore.

a_green_squid · 2022-10-29T09:41:26+00:00

"I have no functional response to the fact that my entire movement has been overtaken by traditionalist extremists who want to take away my rights"

You're the definition of a useful idiot.

And you responded:

Pointing out the glaring flaw in your attack is not idiocy

No offense house but I don't for a second believe you were aware of the phrase, there is nothing at all in my post you're responding to calling you an idiot unless you literally believe that being called a useful idiot means you are being called an idiot.

The glaring flaw is the strawmen I mentioned. Until you can respond to the points I made

Again, you said:

Holy strawmen Batman!

That's not a point being made, that's not "strawmen" being mentioned in any way except abstractly, that's you showing up unannounced and gesticulating wildly at everything while exclaiming "Strawman! Strawman!".

Oh I missed you house, I think we'd get along great if you weren't so full of yourself and I wasn't so full of myself.

a_green_squid · 2022-10-29T09:14:30+00:00

I used the term "useful idiots" fully aware of its meaning. I stand by my statements.

I am aware. House did not understand the term, so I explained it for her sake, not yours. All I was claiming was that you 'set the tone' by using it.

Wut? I did not say [people who care about the health and wellbeing of children with dysphoria" are all useful idiots.]

You did though, you just don't think you did because you don't believe in the objective reality the evidence regarding transition and dysphoria in minors tells.

I and many other adults with experience raising our own children

Cool, doesn't change the fact that overwhelming evidence disagrees with you.

Sorry, but your posts on this thread strike me as the ravings of someone off his/her head and meds.

You posted an unironic conspiracy theory about a trans cabal using people in favour of ~~"push[ing] transition on kids"~~ evidence-based medicine to further their trans agenda. Like I don't know how to tell you this but you can't really say that and expect to be taken seriously. I'm admittedly ranting a bit, but why should I be coherent. I tried that before and was gaslit straight on out of here. At least when I ramble about how unbelievably psychotic your (colloquial) views are I'm having fun with it. And that's all that matters at the end of the day - I'm going to have fun with it. Because I sure as shit am not going to convince any of you to unbury your heads.

a_green_squid · 2022-10-29T09:05:07+00:00

Admittedly, being tongue in cheek has bit me in the ass, and I should have said ATTEMPTED to kill themselves. Because they do. Teens in general commit suicide at rates high enough that it's the number two cause of death among them. So either A: kids transitioning actually DECREASES the suicide rate from the statistical average of their base group, which isn't the win you think it is, or B (and hint, it's B): you don't understand statistics and their correlation to anecdotal evidence. I'm sorry you don't see news articles every day that trans kids are killing themselves? That doesn't change reality. You realize that they're functionally a statistically insignificant group, right? There just aren't enough of them to confidently say that X of them (roughly 100, if you extrapolate from the US suicide statistics and account for higher rates of suicidal ideation) will kill themselves any given year, because the rate of variance is too high to pin down to such a small sample size. And that's not per 100000, that's per ALL of them. To put it in perspective, 15 teens (age 15-19) per 100000 will kill themselves in any given year. There are about 20 million kids in that age group. Which means that on average, 3000 teens kill themselves every year.

And you can't link me stories for all of them. Or even a third of them. Because, shocker, generally the families of deceased DON'T want their children's death to be publicized for the world to see.

And on top of all of this, we're not even accounting for the fact that rates of suicidal ideation (and, therefore, actual suicides) are driven up by unsupportive parents who have zero desire for their children to be considered trans by ANYONE, because they, like you, believe trans kids don't exist. Seriously, this alone should be the smoking gun for you, YOU FUCKING SAID IT YOURSELF, but your head is so in the sand that you can't possibly imagine that any belief you hold might cause actual, tangible harm.

a_green_squid · 2022-10-29T07:53:48+00:00

Just, completely, factually incorrect. I transitioned behind my parent's back, I did so growing up in an extremely conservative part of the country at a time where even in the media trans people just weren't a thing (so I had no trans icons to follow in the footsteps of). I was, quite literally, a kid who was trans. Trans kid. You live in your own little bubble but the real world EXISTS around you, please, I am begging you, stop.

a_green_squid · 2022-10-29T07:50:37+00:00

The studies being pushed to support your position are seeking those outcomes and, as a result, usually use very flawed methods. The first one you linked doesn’t even have a control group…

Okay, so I'm going to try and be as nice as possible when I say, peaking, that this kind of thing right here? This makes everything else you say completely irrelevant. It's the kind of confident incorrectness that highschool kids boast when they think they're smarter than everyone else because they're insanely confident and insanely bad at self-reflection. Your smoking gun, your proof that these studies "use very flawed methods", is that a COHORT study doesn't have a control group. I mean, yes, pardon my French but no shit Sherlock. That's how cohort studies work. You skimmed a study in an attempt to prove that you were right, and didn't even bother to ask yourself "is this really as strong an argument as I think it is?" And then you posted it anyways.

Like explain how and why anything else you say should be taken seriously when you so clearly don't care about objectivity?

a_green_squid · 2022-10-28T20:10:16+00:00

Let me answer your question with a question and ask: Do you believe that any group, especially a marginalized one, can be self-hating?

And I'm glad your beliefs are informed by 'compassion', I just wish they were informed by science instead. Plenty of christians want to ban homosexuality out of 'compassion', whether or not it's informed well, well-meaning, or downright insidious, that's

Not

An

Argument

oops and apologies that the timing is awful i'd love to have more of this conversation with you right now but I have to leave for a 10 hour shift so, uh, sorry, I'll get back to you when i get back to you.

a_green_squid · 2022-10-28T18:11:33+00:00

Yeah, I agree, it really is heartbreaking that a small but determined group of people hate trans people so much that they've made it their entire LIVES to fuck over trans kids because, and this is really important, they do not care about them. It makes THEM physically uncomfortable and that's enough. I'm not even going to bother talking about "the data" because you people have proven time and time again that there isn't data strong enough to prove otherwise: I know this because I have linked it all, and it has never swayed a single person because ackshually here's a study funded by a alt-right think tank that says what I believe so I'm gonna go with that one.

but most desist during puberty if they go through it naturally and aren’t affirmed

The lack of awareness is astounding. I'm glad you made that specific distinction because you know full well you can't just say most desist during puberty on its own, because it's completely untrue. Weird how when trans kids don't get medical attention for a medical condition there are extenuating circumstances (like unsupportive parents and environments), and they don't always go and seek treatment after they get away from said environment. Actually, they often just kill themselves! (btw here's a study you won't read about the lowering of depression rates and suicidality in trans teens who are actually treated https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423 )(and another https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext) (https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2 oops did I drop a third one?)

The treatment that trans activists are pushing does real harm to children, many of whom would grow up to be LGB, and I’m proud to stand with women, feminists, and LGB people in opposing it.

You're in a cult. You have no cohesive evidence to prove this besides your own feelings, and frankly, no one in the world should give a damn about those because they are causing active and tangible harm to not only trans people but to women and the whole of the LGBT community. Are you proud to stand with the overwhelming majority of the pushback against trans people in theocratic conservatives who also want to strip the rights of the women and feminists and LGB people you're in such support of? Because that's what you're getting.

a_green_squid · 2022-10-28T11:08:06+00:00

House... the term 'useful idiot' does not mean you are LITERALLY an idiot. It's a bit of a mean-spirited derogatory insult coined in vernacular to mean something else, and since MT decided that was the term she was going to use, it sort of sets the tone, don't you think?

From Webster: a naive or credulous person who can be manipulated or exploited to advance a cause or political agenda.

As for the 'glaring flaw', enlighten me, O Wise One. MT called people who care about the health and wellbeing of children with dysphoria 'useful idiots' in unknowing cohorts with some cabal of, and I quote, 'some very creepy, sinister people'. Very ominous and spooky, plus a bit silly because it sounds word for word like something Trump would say, but we have fun here. Setting aside the fact that I'm pretty sure the voices in my head are NOT coming from a third party out to trans the kids, I pointed out that your wild and wacky movement is literally currently being overtaken by theocratic facists who are using your rhetoric and your bodies as fodder to build themselves into positions of wealth and power. Radical feminists pushed hard to put people in power in the UK who are ACTIVELY looking to strip away women's rights. Hence, useful idiots. Such as yourself.

a_green_squid · 2022-10-28T09:39:44+00:00

"I have no functional response to the fact that my entire movement has been overtaken by traditionalist extremists who want to take away my rights"

You're the definition of a useful idiot.

a_green_squid · 2022-10-28T08:34:12+00:00

Yes I do hope medical associations in the USA succumb to political pressure. That would be great! It's not like there is a MASSIVE movement in the US this exact second who want to eliminate vaccinations altogether, and it's not like they're likely going to win a branch of government this upcoming election.

a_green_squid · 2022-10-28T08:24:30+00:00

useful idiots

Pot, meet kettle? I mean it's not like every terf on twitter simps for JK Rowling more than her actual fans do. Remind me, was she the one who wrote about goblin bankers with big noses? Or slaves that like to be slaves? Or was she the one who joined the radfem movement in the UK and immediately got cozy with neo-conservative christian fundamentalists under the guise of 'women's rights'. I'm sure worshiping the ground a literal billionaire walks on is a truly feminist act.

And I mean it's not like it's just her, the entire movement in the UK has been subsumed by women who spew their GC buzzwords regardless of whether they actually believe it or not and they'll have a horde of men and women at their beck and call to defend them. I mean Kathleen Stock and Alisson Bailey are both enamoured with Kemi Badenoch, who voted against abortion clinic protections and abstained from voting on gay marriage. And her husband is a political christian fundamentalist. I WONDER IF SHE REALLY CARES ABOUT WOMENS RIGHTS! (she doesn't)

As for sounding like a conspiracy theorist: Yes. You are one. You've got literally no proof besides 'it's just how i feel', you have a theory, and it's about a conspiracy. You are a conspiracy theorist.

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T11:37:33+00:00

(I obviously asked too many questions. Apologies at all)

TBH, I'm sitting here stuck in an airport with nothing but a laptop because my flight was cancelled, this is the most fun I'm getting tonight. There's almost no way in hell I'm coming back to it when I'm home but it's fun while it's here, you know?

1 - okay? I mean, it's my view too, so cool.

3 - You're right, CSHT doesn't CURE dysphoria, it TREATS dysphoria. Which is why I didn't use the word 'cure'. Because as far as modern psychology knows, there is no cure. Which is why I'd absolutely fucking love to see your sources saying 'only desistance' can cure dysphoria. Please.

5 - And I'm truscum, who would have guessed.

9 - Bud, I know haven't actually read the DSM 5, but at least try to pretend like you have.

10 - Sorry, I just find this funny that, like, you're somehow okay with it because it falls in line with your own views. You don't have to respond to things you agree with, you know.

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T11:14:00+00:00

Wow. There is a lot wrong to unpack here. First off, no, the word 'European' does not mean I have a European passport. It also doesn't mean I'm a native. It COULD mean I am a native. It could also mean I live there. That's it. Way to misunderstand the prompt, champ!

does that mean that a transgender female is also a woman?

transgender female

transgender

So, that would be a no. Because they are transgender. Exclusionary vocabulary.

Why would a transgender female not belong under "adult human female"?

I mean, they COULD, but now you're getting into the realm of having multiple words to describe you, and having to pick the best one for any situation. To take from my example from earlier that you didn't understand, I am European, and American (A native of Europe, a permanent resident of America.) The answer to 'what' I am, in this case, isn't a definitive answer, but a social answer, because in most cases, just saying 'both' isn't helpful.

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T05:09:31+00:00

A medical condition is diagnosed independently of what ever a patient says or does not say

Glad we agree.

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T05:08:42+00:00

That's... not how definitions work, but okay.

If I tell you I'm European, does that tell you I'm a European native or a person who lives in Europe?

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T05:01:01+00:00

I think you said language changes above

I didn't, but it's true. Sex dysphoria isn't used widely in the vernacular. Maybe it will be. It's more accurate, I don't know why you think I'd be against it, I'm just using the common medically cited term. I hope someday you'll change the minds of the individuals who name these things, maybe the DSM 6 can have your contribution in there.

You're the one assuming the source is biased

There's a difference between assumption and fact. The one source anyone ever cites isn't from a published study, it's from a survey run by a group of privately funded radfems. And just like every privately funded think tank group, you can not, under ANY circumstances, trust their data.

Sounds like you're throwing those people, who aren't living the dream like you, under the bus.

Not sure what you want me to do. There's no bus I'm throwing people under, it's just the way it is. Short of changing the minds of every single person on the planet, it won't change.

what objective criteria can anyone use to confirm some is trans

The medical condition. That's it. If someone wants to be a woman or a man because they like the identity of it then good for them, they aren't trans. Separation of the two groups would do wonders I think, but again, there's nothing I personally can do about that.

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T03:08:06+00:00

1 - The term Gender identity disorder was publicly coined in 1980 and was in circulation before that. It's just the word that's used. You're reading way too much into it. I could literally care less what it's called, it's just that it IS called gender dysphoria.

2

attacking the source is a logical fallacy

Uh-huh, sure. Unbiased sources are important in a debate space. If you can't find any that's on you.

3 - Bud. Reality applies to everyone. That's how it works. I will always be trans. I pass, so that fact matters to literally only me, my husband, and medical professionals, and for someone who doesn't that group of people increases.

4 - Yes. It is nonsense. Dysphoria is a mental disorder. That's all it is. There's no magical 'look our brains are like their's so it all fits'.

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T02:55:19+00:00

I mean, it's still a literally unprovable point, but that's a lot better than the alternative.

Side note, thanks for deleting Flippy's comment btw. It's not much but it does go a long way to show QT users you care a little bit about bad actors.

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T02:52:40+00:00

2 - 'Adult human male or transgender female' 'Adult human female or transgender male' EZ PZ

3 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16758113/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-009-9551-1 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22736225/ literally 2 seconds in google.

4 - ? Neither of these links are about trangender sex offenders, they're about male prisoners trying to abuse a broken system.

6 - And I'm supposed to keep track of these things? My point still stands, brain sex is a stupid fucking concept. When did I say GC denies neuroplasticity?

7&8 - I mean, they matter more to me than you do. I'm certain the opposite is true for you. It's just the way life works.

9a - I'm saying the current research is awful.

9b -

and by controls I mean people with gender dysphoria not being treated with "gender affirming treatments

Because that's unethical and insane?

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T02:31:12+00:00

Are you really getting upset that the 3 whole QT posters of this sub aren't here for you 24/7? Get off your fucking high horse.

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T02:30:10+00:00

1 - ...because that's just what it got called? This is a weird fucking hill to die on.

2 - If I ask you why all GC are axe murderers and you say that's stupid what are you smoking, isn't that evasive? (hint, it isn't, because it's a stupid question)

3 - Their sense of identity is their own, I can't change how the world around them views them. It's just the reality of the situation.

If anything the concept of neuroplasticity would make the "lady brain" idea completely invalid in determining a person's gender,

Yes. That's why i posted a non-answer for a non-question.

a_green_squid · 2021-09-29T01:51:19+00:00

1 - Sure, probably.

2 - 99% of the time it's what they have in their pants.

3 - Because it works? Why are anti-depressants sometimes used to treat ANXIETY instead of DEPRESSION?

4 - And you can prove this with stats that don't come from that one single GC think tank, right?

5 - Sucks to be them I guess, if you don't pass, you're living as whatever people see you as. If you're in a super liberal place maybe that's just a TW, if you aren't then probably not.

6 - So does neuroplasticity only exist when you guys want it to exist?

7 - IDK. It's not my fault language is changing and leaving you behind. It's just as much not my job to coddle you as it is not your job to coddle me.

8 - Literally only you guys see it as erasure, so no.

9a - They don't. The only people 'studying' desistance are people looking for those statistics, and use scummy ways to pad them like counting people who 'leave their clinic' for any reason as desisters.

b - Your guess is as good as mine. I'd be more than all for putting money into better vetting out young trans people, because it's still nowhere near perfect, but that's not the way the world works.

10 - No.

a_green_squid · 2021-04-14T17:03:33+00:00

Sure but don't act like a TW getting more than literally nothing in hormones is a 'miracle'. I've said it before elsewhere but I help people with their levels on twitter, TW above like 2-3 ng/ml are a massive outlier. Even with bad hormone intake it's usually like .5-1.

edit: in hindsight I will admit that anyone who cares enough to pay attention to their levels is probably taking treatment more seriously, so they'd be slightly skewed to more normal levels than normal, though I doubt that'd change much.

a_green_squid · 2021-04-14T16:45:59+00:00

but they shouldn' t be the ultimate test for letting males in women' s sport leagues.

not saying they are. Honestly my opinion on sports is: tough, don't compete if you are trans

That said it's wildly inaccurate misinformation on the subject I DO know about, I'm not letting it go unsaid.

a_green_squid · 2021-04-14T16:34:22+00:00

.2 ng/ml is .7 nmol/l

wowee would you look at that it's way lower.

Honestly literally 0 idea where you got 12 on average for a TW on blockers and estrogen, considering that's still above the bottom of normal male levels.

a_green_squid · 2021-04-14T16:18:53+00:00

because even if, for some miracle, their testosterone results ok for women' s leagues,

sorry, not getting involved in the conversation because I know nothing about sports nor do I care much about them, but... you realize that any TW on hormones will have T levels comparable to women, right? Like it's not a miraculous thing, it just... is.

edit for reference: my last blood test put me at .2 ng/ml, which would be approaching the low end of normal female levels

second edit: Should say any TW on a proper amount of hormones, not some weird 50 mg spiro 1 mg estro crap.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-29T05:30:10+00:00

Yes, standards of care promoting oral estrogen and spironolactone as the foremost treatment for TW is what I would call medieval.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-29T02:05:55+00:00

What's wrong with the standards of care in your view?

The fact that they hold an almost archaic view of how hormones should be used. I won't bore you with the boring medical stuff, but a lot of what's stated in regards to hormone regimens for both FTM and MTF is just so outdated and wrong.

There's the whole two entirely different doctors you would need to properly diagnose you to get two letters of referrals thing that isn't at ALL classist as hell.

I could go on. Luckily they aren't literal rules so much as guidelines, but the issue arises that they're the ONLY guidelines, and so people get caught up in them, since again, the majority of medical professionals know almost nothing about trans people.

Makes sense. I'm sure if won't be perfectly where you want by then.

Oh, they definitely won't be anywhere close.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-28T18:28:26+00:00

but that maybe just the most basic information being more available would be helpful for those who seek it out

Sure, absolutely, I don't think this conflicts with the visibility of individuals at all. Honestly I'd say at least a moderate amount of informational availability would help tremendously, especially for trans youth and young adults navigating the medical and legal world, with professionals in said fields knowing how to properly handle trans cases.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-28T18:02:40+00:00

For me, I feel like it was a lot better 15+ years ago when trans stuff was getting much less attention

Lowkey agree. Visibility is, honestly, the bane of trans people. I've got some words about the more visible sect of trans people, but that maybe isn't for this topic...

What would need to happen with trans rights for you to just not care anymore?

Proper medical care for trans people. That's not just 'go into clinic, get hormones'. That's proper studies (on both medication and GD as a disorder), proper access to medical care worldwide (and defense against attacks on that access), and an improvement of what at this point is basically medieval standards of care.

Is it achievable?

HAH.

IDK, maybe, I'd settle for any one of the points happening in the next 10-15 years, but I'm not holding my breath.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-24T13:16:36+00:00

Yes, yes, you are very smart.

why weren't there mass suicides amongst the groups being persecuted

But there were. We know there were. Survivorship bias and the fact that data current to those events was tampered with heavily by the perpetrators of said events both make it hard to get an accurate read on suicide data during, for example, the holocaust, but even still:

Some estimates are as high as 1 in 4 committing suicide inside of concentration camps (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7738915_The_Suicide_Rate_in_the_Concentration_Camps_Was_Extraordinarily_High_A_Comment_on_Bronisch_and_Lester). We also know that pre-war, Jewish peoples in Germany/Austria had a higher suicide rate (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165178117311290?via%3Dihub). And even DESPITE survivorship bias, the rate of suicide still seems to be higher in aging holocaust survivors (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16085786/ , https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17402339/) when compared to the general population by a significant margin.

Moreover, it's very clear from your posts that whenever you are challenged, you can't articulate any arguments defending and advancing your position.

Right, was it you who linked me a study you didn't even read earlier? I'm not sure I trust what's 'clear' to you.

Instead, you just resort to ad hominem attacks.

No, I just include them. If I can't beat em, join em, right?

See, us unwashed sacks of taters can play this game too.

Sure. You sure showed me. I'm glad we've already hit the slur-reclaimation stage.

But back to the issue of suicide, who it affects and why: please start a thread about this.

Start a thread about WHAT. There's nothing to debate. Suicide affects people. There are a large number of determining factors behind it. Sometimes a subset of those factors is an entity we can point to and blame.

In a debate on the topic I think I'd wipe the floor with you.

I kind of want to let this stand on its own. Being here has been this surreal experience where I can't tell if I'm interacting with boomers who think having lived longer means they're smarter or 14 year old kids who just found the skeptic community on Youtube and want to prove their worth in the comments of some random feminism video.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-23T18:20:26+00:00

And once again, all I have to say is I'm glad you've never been suicidal in your life. Enjoy your day, bud. Block button's still there, you're a grown ass woman, I doubt I need to tell you where to find it.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-23T18:13:31+00:00

Because you don't have an answer for it.

nobody is responsible for suicide other than the person committing it

Means the Native American suicide rate is just their own fault, somehow. Kids who are bullied and don't receive any sort of help are the only ones to blame when they commit suicide, somehow. You are an ableist sack of potatoes who has clearly never had a suicidal thought in their lives and I am profoundly happy for you for that.

And before I get the "wahhhhh I'm being stalked" because you have one mode and it's denigrate rather than answer, I'm preemptively telling you to get over yourself, I stopped responding because I figured your answer was just 'yes' and went to go browse the new thread before I went to sleep, and lo and behold, here you are, hugboxing with your friends about the mean ol' tranny creep who wants you to say outright that you're an ableist and a racist rather than just hiding behind a veneer of plausible deniability.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-23T02:41:50+00:00

Where does it get into suicide rates? Can you copy and paste it because that’s a lot to read and it kind of sounds like bullshit

It's literally the second study linked. https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/MHRJ-05-2014-0015/full/html

We are not directly or indirectly responsible for the lives (or deaths) of trans people. -(from your prior post)

Radfems advocating for the inability to access medical care (in some cases trying to block it until 25) makes them responsible. I don't care about how you FEEL it makes you heroes for increasing suicide rates, it objectively increases them.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-17T04:02:27+00:00

I think it would be the biggest challenge to see how far you could make a billion dollars go. I think buying the debts of people in poverty and then forgiving them would be the most efficient use of it. I know there's at least one charity that does that for medical debt, and I can't find anything as to them being disreputable.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-17T01:33:48+00:00

Flaming is probably about as acceptable as victim blaming, I guess.

I regret my decisions for a living. Err, I mean I haven't quit my job yet. Looking forward to my fourth 12 hour shift in a row this week tonight, because we don't have a replacement for third shift and the two of us still here are covering it. Not so bad in my last 2-3 hours since I can goof around on my phone, still don't want to be there.

Donate it. Seriously. There's nothing to do with 1 billion dollars and holding on to it is an objectively evil act. Having the money to actually impact change in some meaningful way would make me happy I think, so we can just call that it. Maybe I'll keep the last 100k (which is .0001% btw as a reminder for how goddamn big a billion is) and quit my stupid job and travel somewhere.

Last thing I made was the bed. Second last thing was a stupid joke about 'making' a bed.

Verbally, if you can believe it, not very often. I say helvítis a lot, which is sometimes translated as fuck in icelandic (it's kinda more like god damnit but well), but it's mostly under my breath.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-16T05:37:32+00:00

I'm not going to debate someone debating something wholly irrelevant. You can try and debate me in any number of topics that don't matter. If I start trying to ask why radfems want to murder trans babies and their parents are you going to give me any shred of dignity and respond?

Cosmetic procedures aren't harmful, they just aren't fit for minors. You're the one saying they are harmful in the first place.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-16T05:25:13+00:00

If you think the standard of care for trans kids includes surgery you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and I'm not going to bother responding, or you do and you're asking in bad faith, again, I won't respond.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-15T03:44:20+00:00

Ethically speaking, child abuse is refusing children medical treatment of which we have concrete evidence of efficacy. But sure.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-15T03:12:25+00:00

Behavioral and emotional problems and depressive symptoms decreased, while general functioning improved significantly during puberty suppression. Feelings of anxiety and anger did not change between T0 and T1. While changes over time were equal for both sexes, compared with natal males, natal females were older when they started puberty suppression and showed more problem behavior at both T0 and T1. Gender dysphoria and body satisfaction did not change between T0 and T1.

So feelings of anxiety, anger, gender dysphoria and body satisfaction - none of them improved on blockers.

Behavioral and emotional problems and depressive symptoms decreased, while general functioning improved significantly during puberty suppression

Behavioral and emotional problems and depressive symptoms decreased

while general functioning improved significantly during puberty suppression

You didn't even read the thing you quoted. I just can't.

The study measures a lot of different variables in mental health. GD and body satisfaction remained the same (which is understandable, puberty blockers literally just block puberty, your body is doing the opposite of changing.) while "Behavioral and emotional problems and depressive symptoms" were reduced. Literally a net positive.

The "cure" you advocate for young children with GD will leave most of them sterile, sexually dysfunctional, without libido or ability to orgasm, with compromised cognitive faculties, stunted psychology and perhaps diminished IQ. It's a treatment that totally contradicts the principles of "first do no harm" and evidence-based care.

cite your sources. And maybe actually read them this time.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-15T02:03:47+00:00

Hey bud, you wanna finish that quote?

If someone comes up with a miracle pill that cures the dysphoria without having to transition

but that's not going to happen

But sure.

no incontrovertible evidence that these will help alleviate their distress over the long term

I mean, this is just untrue. I can link you the cornell aggregate study if you want, though I'm sure you've seen it before. I can click related links on pubmed til the cows come home if you want. Overwhelmingly data suggests transitions alleviates mental stress over dysphoria.

Fuck it, I'll do it anyways

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19473181/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24344788/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25536896/

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/ And here is the Cornell review if you've somehow never been given it.

I'm not demanding a miracle pill. I am demanding access to healthcare.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-14T18:45:10+00:00

The stork.

sorry.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-14T18:43:31+00:00

LOL, you've clearly not had or raised children

I WONDER what gave it away.

Weird how the CDC charts you gave me place 7 year olds at almost identical in height and weight categories. I am aware boys are about 1cm taller on average around 12-24 months, but honestly... is this relevant? I doubt anyone is worried about the sanctity of 1 year old sports.

We CAN add bone density to the list. Though, I couldn't find any papers related and significant closer to 6-7 years of age, and that's when girl's T levels spike the highest relative to boy's T levels.

Mini-puberty is nebulous water to tread. Even one of the papers you linked said there are conflicting studies on the impact of testosterone in <36 month boys and growth. I requested the one they linked, we'll see if it's got any interesting data.

https://echfoodie.com/presidential-physical-fitness-test-chart/

link broke

If your claims are correct, why is it that the US President's Physical Fitness Test/Challenge that American kids starting at age 10 have taken part in since the 1950s has always had different scoring criteria for males and female children?

Puberty starts at 10.

If your claims were correct, how do you explain this:

This was a cross-sectional study involving 312 children (10.8 ± 0.4 years). The physical fitness assessment employed sets of aerobic fitness, strength, flexibility, speed, agility, and balance. The boys presented higher values in all selected tests, except tests of balance and flexibility, in which girls scored better.

It has been observed that there is an apparent decrease in the interest of children in physical education classes and regular physical activity practice at school. This seems to be partly because of the lack of planning that takes into account the success of children in the execution of the exercises respecting the differences among students, including boys and girls. The knowledge of the magnitude of the differences between boys and girls in physical fitness (greater in the explosive strength of upper and lower limbs, and smaller in the abdominal and upper limbs muscular endurance and trunk extensor strength and flexibility, balance and speed), can help in the planning of activities that take into account the success of both boys and girls, and thus, increase levels of physical activity and physical fitness at school.

Puberty starts at 10.

developmentally girls of that age are usually considerably ahead than boys of the same age.

I've read it has a lot to do with the heightened T levels, I want to do more reading into this as well later.

Thanks for the links, I'm going to sleep but I look forward to properly reading them when I wake up.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-14T14:45:22+00:00

Sorry, I'm expecting the dogpile, I've done this game before, and since I'm not perfect with english I usually take way too long with responses to respond to everyone. That said, I appreciate that you have a very strong opinion on how gender dysphoria SHOULDN'T be treated. Do you have medical sources backing this up? Are you a doctor? A psychiatrist? No?

Let me be clear. If I did not self-med when I did I would have killed myself. That was the plan. I know multiple people who were in the same boat when they were younger. Pretending dysphoria is an issue we can just therapist away is how it happens. If someone comes up with a miracle pill that cures the dysphoria without having to transition in a society that hates us, amazing, i'll take two, but that's not going to happen, so unless you have any bright ideas you and everyone else can stop trying to criminalize the only treatment we have concrete evidence of working in ANY capacity.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-14T13:07:27+00:00

If you don't think it exists, then you may want to provide another reason for why trans folk exist.

Trust me, I want it to not exist too, you guys.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-14T09:57:42+00:00

2&4) Apologies, but your rhetoric and the rhetoric of racists are too similar for me to separate them. Just saying the things you're saying are accurate and true doesn't make it okay. If I waltz into /pol/ and ask for proof that x race is inferior, I'll be showered with crime statistics and test scores galore. That doesn't make it right, as I'm sure it's as obvious to you as it is to me that there is more behind the curtain of out of context statistics. But the same self-applied inherent morality and right-ness is what I'm concerned about. If you can't properly address a point beyond "I'm just saying the truth", then I don't have any real way to talk with you about it, sorry.

In regards to point 2 specifically, I'm not really sure how it doesn't make sense. It is pretty clear cut, and here at least I'm not comparing your rhetoric and racist rhetoric, just pointing out that beliefs about a group of people are opinions, as well as politically charged statements. Being openly transphobic is, similarly, both opinion and transphobia.

To point 4 specifically, how do you feel about the fact that you may have unknowingly called someone born female a man or born male a woman in your day to day life? Is that something that's upsetting to think about? What about the fact that people you have never nor will ever meet have called you a "TERF"? It's true, the acronym is accurate, so how is it a slur? I didn't even call incorrect pronouns slurs, by the way, don't know how you got there, I just said it comes from a place of transphobia.

NOTE: I understand being compared to racists is upsetting. I try my hardest not to make allegories, because of how that can be construed, but direct analogies aren't something I can just let be unsaid. I know it's easy to say racial issues are more pressing and dire (which they are), and thus comparing rhetoric is racist/ignorant on its own, but I'm sorry I'm not going to let people hand-wave me like that when they really be out here acting like my racist uncle who 'doesn't hate black people, but'.

Moving onwards, 3 & 7) Curious how you have a problem with 3 but agree with 7? Considering it's the same answer, I'm a little lost.

There are actual terms for people attracted to feminized males and females (or just feminized males- not my term, just the term I see used often, starts with a g, can’t remember it atm)

Looked it up, can't find anything, sorry. Anyways, I'll be honest, dictating sexuality to me when one of the big hangups radfems have is TRA's dictating sexuality to them is a bit ironic, I hope that isn't lost on you. There isn't VALUE to being straight or gay. There isn't anything WRONG with being straight or gay. The issue comes from placing me in the same category as men, or telling my husband actually he's gay despite the fact that he isn't.

5) And naturally you have sources to back up your feelings right? Or is it just feelings? Because I do.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25201798/

https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/abstract (relates more to pronouns)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26556015/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33529227/

In fact, the worst I can find is studies saying no one cares about trans people enough to get enough data and we need more studies:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31472062/ (badly formatted, sorry)

I should add a disclaimer that while I am very pro young-transition, we need to put a lot more money and effort into determining whether or not children have persistent GD as early as possible. That said, with regards to your point, children aren't old enough to give 'consent' to any medical treatment. None. We don't teach kids with depression to just learn to cope with being depressed all their lives, we don't tell kids with cancer they can't consent to treatment so tough luck. It is a medical illness, one we have cohesive proof we know how to alleviate. Puberty IS permanent, and does permanent psychological damage to kids with GD. Wishy-washy language about being affirming in less permanent ways is the reason poor kids in the UK can't get treatment anymore. Suicide rates go up when trans kids can't access treatment, we know this as a fact.

6)

And male bodies are different in ways that matter athletically before puberty

They aren't. Not even a little. The BEST I could find is pre-puberty boys have less body fat. BMI, Height, Weight, and Lean Mass are all almost identical until about 10-11 years old (the puberty age).

It’s not even just about a potential threat (and your existence has nothing at all to do with it), females should be allowed their own spaces for myriad reasons.

This is a nice thought, but again, I'm not going to put myself in danger for it. If you want to be the one to spearhead the march to put a gender-neutral bathroom in every building in the world, be my guest.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-14T04:51:14+00:00

1) it's not, really.

2) they're not mutually exclusive. A racist is still a racist, and his opinions are still opinions.

3) a guy who isn't attracted to men but attracted to TW is straight, or straight-adjacent, or etc. You can call it whatever you want in your head to affirm your own worldview, i don't really care. Just don't go shouting from the rooftops about a sexuality you think my husband and other people have that they don't have.

4) Regardless of how you feel about them, misgendering will always be seen as an action performed to denigrate trans people. Honestly, even I don't believe you if you say it's not about being mean it's just about 'being right'. That's the kind of rhetoric racists use all the time.

5) a) Dysphoria is a bitch and early transition relieves it much better than late transition. b) Access to healthcare is a human right, and your 1970s, 30 person studies 'disproving' the efficacy of transition alongside conversion therapy pushing aren't going to stop it being the most effective treatment. c) What do you think happens when emotionally unstable children are told they can't have access to healthcare they know exist? Hint, it's self-medding or suicide.

I want to talk more about early transition at some point, maybe I'll make a thread.....

6) Beyond the wild misinformation from both sides, I'm pretty militant about pre-transition use of women's spaces (don't). Other than that, sorry, I'm not putting myself at risk because of an implied threat from my existing. Sports is a harder bear to tackle, but this is why we need pre-puberty transition :)

7) Point 3. I don't think it's transphobic.

8) Hating trans people? I don't know, it's a very vague topic, and much like other ism's and phobia's, there is a lot of "I DON'T HATE x BUT" floating around that muddies the water a lot.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-13T13:22:51+00:00

And anyone should trust this poll paid for by arguably the most scummy radfem group in the United States, through a polling group that almost exclusively serves republican interests, and somehow managed to include in their poll a 40-45%~ trump supporter margin in California, despite the state having half that in an actual trump-supporting population, because why exactly? As far as I can tell (and every link on that page is now purple for me), they don't list the actual methodology anywhere. The best we get is 'which presidential candidate do you support', which is already damning as is. And that's just California. At least there they managed to poll a majority of democrat voters. The 'nationwide' poll is even worse, with a 49/49 split (1.x% independent). And considering we can immediately throw about 95% of republican voters into the 'down with trans people' category, immediately the swing of overwhelming majority becomes 'republicans hate it but democrats are mixed'. Oh and 82% of people they polled were over 35. Eighty two. With 80% also being white, and 75% being middle class or higher. I don't have any clap emoji's so I need you to imagine them when I say: The. Poll. Is. Rigged.

But while we're here on their site, let me find out who ELSE recommends Spry Research!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Principles_Project

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_America_PAC

https://www.nc.gop/

Cumulus Media (Family Radio, Salem Media, Ben "Facts Man" Shapiro, many others. They're a LOT, if you want to dig into them be my guest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulus_Media_Networks)

Herman Cain, the anti-masker who went to a trump rally, caught covid, and died.

tl;dr, why in god's name do I care about this poll?

a_green_squid · 2021-03-10T19:29:34+00:00

Direct quoting and indirect quoting are two different things. I can give you some direct quotes if you'd like to read some really lovely things out there on the internet. It's obvious in the context of the sentence that this is said by 'alt right guys' ('usual alt right guys talking about how disgusting trannies are'), indirectly, as I have zero desire to search this stuff out to give you any semblance of a direct quote.

you did use British-type quotation marks

TIL that's a British thing, cool.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-10T14:05:33+00:00

Quoting people is not 'choosing' to use a slur, get out of here with that.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-10T03:56:28+00:00

trying to invalidate other people's sexual boundaries is wrong.

I won't disagree with the point, but when every other big superstraight post on twitter was full of the usual alt right guys talking about how disgusting trannies are I think it probably becomes a problem. That's the issue with 'movements' like these, is that's the kind of thing it attracts. but idk, again it's hard to really care about the new flavour of the month.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-10T03:02:44+00:00

I mean it's mostly young alt-right reactionary guys finding a new fun way to make trans people hate themselves. I'm glad if some people find that funny I guess, but honestly to me it's just more of the same with a new name, I don't really care...

a_green_squid · 2021-03-06T09:18:19+00:00

Thanks. I posted on the reddit a while back, but some of the posters there were a little too toxic and the rules seemed a little too unfollowed. This seems better from what I've seen, so round two I guess?

a_green_squid · 2021-03-06T09:16:44+00:00

At that point wouldn't it be simpler to say trans people feel discomfort due to dysphoria?

For me at least, this is the case. Idk, I relate pretty heavily to not understanding gender identity as a concept, as most of my personal drive is alleviating BDD/dysphoria rather than chasing gender feelings. Mostly I was just trying to explain how I've been told gender identity feels might apply to someone who isn't trans.

a_green_squid · 2021-03-05T13:09:02+00:00

As a trans person, I don't think it makes sense for non-trans people. You may have a gender identity, but if you do, then you have it in the same way you have a human identity, as in it's a non-feeling, something you don't interact with, acknowledge, or even think about on a day-to-day basis. IF (big if) you do have it, it's completely irrelevant to you.

If I'm being generous, it's being pushed so that non-trans people can understand that the feeling of normality and 'non-feeling' isn't a normal experience for trans people and maybe feel some level of sympathy. If I'm being realistic? Yeah, probably what the other person said, it's being pushed because they don't want to feel othered, and applying the concept of gender identity to everyone might help with them with that.

a_green_squid