GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. Because people don't always live up to their own ideals.

  2. Because being against sex-based stereotypes doesn't mean you have to deny the reality that there are observable trends in how women and men behave. Humans make assumptions based on trends about all kind of things all the time. It's hard-wired on us because in order to survive in the distant past we had to decide in an instant if, for example, that big and scary lion over there was a threat. Getting right of generalizations may not be possible, but that doesn't mean we cannot strive for a fairer society or challenge plain baseless ideas like, for instance, "men are the rational ones, women are the emotional ones".

  3. Because some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism.

#1 I can understand. #3 I dont understand why some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism. Every study on trans issues finds that women are more supportive of transgenderism than men.

For instance a PPRI study found that 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to 40% of women. According to a poll, 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared tp 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

This brings us to point #2. The observable trends show that women are more supportive of transgenderism than men. So if they were acting on observable trends then they would know women are more likely to be advocates of transgenderism than men. But since they deny that they are obviously acting on stereotypes and their own ideas, not observable trends.

Last year my sister and I (both cis women) overheard our dad misgender Rachel Levine while talking on the phone with his brother. As soon as the conversation was finished, we called him out on it and insisted he use "she" for Rachel Levine. He kept telling us that Rachel Levine is a "he" and is a man. My dad is a white, straight, cis, able-bodied and middle class male, basically he fits the definition of "privileged" in the social justice context except for the fact that hes not Christian. We are Jewish. I am a disabled woman. My dad is not supportive of the trans community and its one reason I don't often interact with him.

Women, or people who were assigned female at birth can absolutely be fierce advocates of transgenderism, including those of other marginalized identities like POC or disabled women.

Could you explain what do you mean by this? What does make two people be the same "gender" if not sex-based stereotypes? If self-identification alone, as you have told us, makes a woman how "transwoman" can be indistinguishable from "cis women"? If self-identifation alone makes a woman, how can a "transwoman" "pass" or not?

Gender is how you identify yourself. My gender is female. I share a gender/sex with Oprah, Laverne Cox, Beyonce, MJ Rodriguez, Rihanna, Jazz Jennings, Kim Kardashian and Taylor Swift. I do not share a sex with Lebron James and Elliot Page.

Some trans women who take hormones and some pass to the point where you wouldn't be able to tell she is trans by looking or at her or hearing her voice. There is no need to use quotation marks.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So you can tell someone's sex assigned at birth by their words and behavior? I thought GCs were against sex stereotypes?

I cannot speak for others, I can only make guesses about what they may think, you know? You keep sharing random quotes from Ovarit and asking us to justify or explain them as if we all are a hivemind. But, anyway, some possible answers may be:

  1. Because people don't always live up to their own ideals.

  2. Because being against sex-based stereotypes doesn't mean you have to deny the reality that there are observable trends in how women and men behave. Humans make assumptions based on trends about all kind of things all the time. It's hard-wired on us because in order to survive in the distant past we had to decide in an instant if, for example, that big and scary lion over there was a threat. Getting right of generalizations may not be possible, but that doesn't mean we cannot strive for a fairer society or challenge plain baseless ideas like, for instance, "men are the rational ones, women are the emotional ones".

  3. Because some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism.

But speaking about sex-based stereotypes...

Yes I understand. I still believe some trans people are indistuinguishable from cis people of the same gender.

Could you explain what do you mean by this? What does make two people be the same "gender" if not sex-based stereotypes? If self-identification alone, as you have told us, makes a woman how "transwoman" can be indistinguishable from "cis women"? If self-identifation alone makes a woman, how can a "transwoman" "pass" or not?

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't you understand that meeting someone in person is a complete different experience than seeing them in a picture? And pictures can be filtered, being in taken in convenient angles and lighting, etcetera.

Yes I understand. I still believe some trans people are indistuinguishable from cis people of the same gender.

Also, those users may have made a guess based in Chase Strangio and Jeanette Jennings's words or behaviour.

So you can tell someone's sex assigned at birth by their words and behavior? I thought GCs were against sex stereotypes?

Looking for an active community, does anyone have a link to the discord server? by Luminie in GCdebatesQT

[–]throwaway456 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks!

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't you understand that meeting someone in person is a complete different experience than seeing them in a picture? And pictures can be filtered, being in taken in convenient angles and lighting, etcetera. Also, those users may have made a guess based in Chase Strangio and Jeanette Jennings's words or behaviour.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How do you know? Even Ovatit can't always tell someone's birth sex. For instance, one thread Why are many gay men prominent TRAs?, Chase Strangio was listed as a gay man.

There's ACLU Lawyer Chase Strangio, currently dead set on ensuring males can play in women's sports, resolving the nonexistent epidemic of murders of trans women, promoting "sex work", and other such noble pursuits in the name of human rights.

OP edited her post after others pointed out Strangio is a trans man.

There is another post which I couldn't find but someone asked if Jeanette Jennings (Jazz's mom) was a trans woman. Another user replied no she just has a large nose.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]shveya 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True 100%, furthermore, if another woman comes ats me, I at least have a fighting chance of defending myself.

Everything Else! 6/15/22 by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry in this comment I'm gonna jump around a bit haha

Fwiw I think the FINA decision will just pressure young trans girls to transition before they're ready in order to even have a chance at competing since they have to do it by 12. That saddens and angers me and I don't even really care about sports. I see it as ultimately another way to cast trans women and girls as men or boys regardless of how early we transition and regardless of the actual physical changes to an individual's body.

Tried to find a good article on this that showed the actual text, and wasn't twitter, but

The Texas GOP recently released their platform, which includes both opposition to marriage equality and the assertion that no one should be able to change the sex on their IDs (something that's obvi necessary for many/most trans ppl to live a private life):

https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1539298936946581504?t=agxzBaw72nk9TYt2WcNIIQ&s=19

Imo, this is a sign that the US right is becoming bold enough to oppose trans care for young adults (their platform says under 21), which is worrying.

Additionally, there are now organizations like Genspect or "Transgender Trend" that openly oppose trans care access for teens or young adults. Genspect's position (https://genspect.org/position/) both decries what they call the "Dutch protocol" (people under 30-35 being focused on) and also suggests that people under 25 aren't able to make these decisions. Many recent right wing sentiments seem clearly developed from these "we just have concerns" type groups, idk.

I just turned 25. I've been transitioning for just 6-7ish years. To have it suggested that I should not have been able to is very scary, because I genuinely don't know what my life these past years would have been like then or if I'd be around at all.

Fwiw, there has been a ton of research that is trans supportive and serves to counter the narrative of these organizations:

https://twitter.com/DadTrans/status/1533890784663154690?t=yX9O-rzF2RfXA1qOIoHN-w&s=19

Additionally ones like genspect and SEGM are tied to religious, conversion therapist individuals or groups:

https://transsafety.network/posts/segm-uncovered/

In terms of trans healthcare itself, it is difficult to find people writing about access in the US, because it's definitely not universal. I go to an LGBT-specific clinic now, but even now I don't get the sense that my doctor knows exactly what she's doing. It's known to p much any trans person that WPATH had a big lag time on what's "optimal" in terms of transition care. Our healthcare trickles down from them to individual doctors and in a non-uniform way. In the US, spironolactone is still widely prescribed despite there being better anti-androgens available for a while now.

In the UK and in many other places, waitlists are hellish: https://www.gendergp.com/nhs-waiting-lists-forcing-trans-people-to-leave-the-uk/

I know people who've waited months or years just to get seen. For all the talk of "ROGD", I'd love to meet these people who say they got hormones or surgery in .3 seconds lol, because tons of ppl ik r still waiting.

My doctor didn't really provide any info on what to do for surgeries; she told me she'd sign the letter required for like, SRS, but I'm on my own for finding a surgeon and all that. This is at an LGBT clinic, even. Obvi I'm an adult and I don't need to be totally handheld but I guess I'd expect some sort of initial handholding process or support since this is a thing that'll come up again and again?? Instead I have to do my own research and agonize over it without their help. Trying to plan major surgery rn while work and relationship stuff is going on is a lot.

I guess overall my stance has become that I cannot ever rely on anyone who isn't trans to understand my medical needs. I deal with non-trans doctors because it's more convenient than doing it all myself, but I don't like it. And I don't assume they actually care about me, about whether my dosage is right, about whether the surgeon I get referred to is reputable, etc.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]HouseplantThought crime is violence, rape threats are self expression 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When did basic respect come to include “denying your material perceptions to match the preferred self image a person wants?”

When I was growing up, basic respect was not using foul language, making eye contact, using titles like sir and mam, and not discussing contentious issues like money or religion at dinner.

Nobody was ever obliged to play a role in maintaining someone’s identity for them.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I use men's restrooms half the time anyway, so I wouldn't personally care. It's not outside my comfort zone, but I don't think I should get to speak for anyone other than myself.

All: How have your beliefs evolved? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]OffAndSpherehere from roblox lol 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Long story short, unaware to QT to GC to middling.

Rape by deception and “Passing” by HeimdeklediROAR in GCdebatesQT

[–]OffAndSpherehere from roblox lol 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am just going to say that I got one person to agree to someone disclosing racial backgrounds and biological sex before having sex. That same person also didn't care about someone finding a "barely legal" partner.

For me, there is a rule that I think is a good idea: "ask or disclose". If the majority of people in the world would not have sex with a transgender person, Person 1 must disclose to Person 2 that they are transgender. If it is a minority instead, Person 2 must ask Person 1 if they are transgender. Repeat for other characteristics. This doesn't necessarily have to be set at 50%—it could also be 30% or 70%.

Meta: What can we do to stimulate more activity here? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]OffAndSpherehere from roblox lol 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

yo, it's me from the discord server! sup "worried19"! here are some non-ideological reasons for the lack of activity

Saidit/post-comment systems are NOT good for debate. Not only are response times massive (which means it's not good for reaching a consensus fast), what usually ends up happening is that people end up hyper-focusing on a single insult in a post and ignoring the actual argument (although this subsaidit has gotten better with that last time I checked). People also tend to not remember each user from separate debates (although this is probably bias on my part), leading to them to be more likely to diss them in the first place instead of remembering that there is a human behind the screen, and jokes are harder to throw in to break up tension, as the expected comment length is much longer than Discord, making punchy, "chill out a little there" lines trickier to pull off.

Also, the lack of downvotes does not mitigate the existence of upvotes, and as such result in the top posts being biased towards brief, "the answer is quite simple" responses. This is because people usually don't want to read the entire comment section of a post, so they upvote the top posts (which are usually well-written, to give credit to them), creating a large gap between the top posts and the bottom ones. This is a debate space: even if the answer is simple and correct, I think we need to explore WHY it is simple and correct.

Everything Else! 6/15/22 by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Can you link the articles? I’m just curious. I did read about the FINA/women’s swimming decision but I haven’t heard of the age limit or healthcare stuff

Everything Else! 6/15/22 by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm still settling in haha, thank you!

And yeah I'd love to try sometime! I have a real kitchen now lol

A lot of the discourse around trans healthcare and access to it scares me greatly. I have seen people suggest trying to limit it to 21 or 25 and up and I cannot ever support that. It is a scary time to be a trans person when so many simply want to treat us as if we're no different than people who didn't transition, or ignore our cries for help and healthcare, etc. Like, I've actually been considering planning to leave the US, but idk where I'd go, really. It feels like nowhere is guaranteed safe, honestly sometimes I wish trans people had our own nation

Everything Else! 6/15/22 by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hope your move went well!

Lemon meringue is so good, a bit tricky to make imo but fun to try out.

What’s scaring you in the news?

Looking for an active community, does anyone have a link to the discord server? by Luminie in GCdebatesQT

[–]throwaway456 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Discord link isn't working, think you could send a new one? Thanks.

Everything Else! 6/15/22 by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]HouseplantThought crime is violence, rape threats are self expression 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oooh hope you enjoy it! There’s a lot of variations but I recommend going heavy on the strawberry and layering the sliced fruits and rhubarb like a ratatouille. Or if you’re willing to really mess around, combine the fillings, cook them down with simple syrup, purée and strain, and then add a setting agent like gelatin or agar and then bake it in the crust.
Yeah I gotta make one now, it’s been years!

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you're not female nothing you do will make me say you're a woman. Transwoman at best.

Also, "passing" is in the eyes of the beholder.

Female women have the right to sex-segregated spaces, and when males infringe on this they are forcing women to give up their privacy.

Everything Else! 6/15/22 by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, hi.

I still have comments to reply to at some point @_@

I'm mostly just really stressed out haha. Maybe I read too much Twitter but a lot of the recent news has really made me scared for the future. At work we're in crunch time for a project that's due soon and a bunch of ppl are relying on me. Oh and I'm moving, literally tomorrow lol! Once everything is done though and I'm on my own again I think it'll be a lot better! Just have to get through it ^_^

I've been getting through season 4 of Stranger Things lately, trying to space it out until July haha

My last meal would probably have to be sushi and maybe chicken katsu? Preferably spicy tuna and tempura rolls. I've been on a big Japanese food phase lol

I think my fav pie would be lemon meringue? I've never made one (yet) but I used to eat it when I was little

Hope everyone else is doing well <3

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Or we didn't used to until males very recently started using gender identity claims to invad

Can you name one person who's done that, who's not trans and just faking it?

How can anyone tell who is legit trans, if there is such a thing, or just faking it?

But that's beside the point. If there are people who are "true trans," it still wouldn't explain or excuse why males who are "true trans" have to invade girls' and women's sport. There is no reason on earth that I can see why male TPs like Cece Telfer, June Eastwood, Lia Thomas, Rachel McKinnon, Terry Miller, Andraya Yearwood, Meghan Youngren, Laurel Hubbard, Chelsea Wolfe, Emily Bridges, Stephanie Barrett, Sasha Jane Lowerson and the hundreds more like them absolutely must participate in women's and girls' sports.

There are many male TPs who think it's wrong for males to use their gender identities to horn in on female sports. There are many female athletes with trans and NB gender identities who have continued to compete in female sports. Female TPs are not participating in male sports in anywhere near the numbers that male TPs are horning in on female sports. And the few who have entered male sports never, ever win. Most don't place or even make it off the bench. Funny that.

In sports, the only time people are ever allowed to move from one category to another is when they go up into a category in which they will have less advantage, not more. So a 14 year old who's really big and strong and fast can step up to the next age rung and compete with 15 and 16 year olds, but a 14 year old who's small and weak and slow can't step down to compete with the younger kids.

Only male TPs and their allies are demanding that male TPs, and they alone, should be able to use their gender identity claims - real or fake, it doesn't matter - to compete in a category of sport where male TPs have massive physical advantages over all other participants. Only male TPs and their allies are demanding that male TPs be given the right to punch down on, lord it over and unfairly trounce those who are naturally smaller, weaker and slower. Then when girls and women complain, male TPs and their allies turn around and call the girls and women names and say girls and women just need to "try harder."

Please explain how you justify this.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean you think I'm one of those so I'm just speaking against "my own kind"

So do you think that because I am a woman, it entitles me to speak against all women? That because I am a mother, I'm allowed to slag off all women with children? That because I live in certain country, I can cast aspersions on everyone who resides in my country? You get the point, I'm sure.

The only people who have been consistently kind to me are women and trans people.

But making sweeping judgments - good or bad - about entire populations based solely on the small number of people you have interacted with and who have been kind or mean to you personally is never a good idea. I think you need to broaden your horizons and stop seeing life solely through the lens of your own personal experience. Read some biographies. Study some history. Learn about life in other cultures, and other time periods. Thinking about me, me, me all the time is a recipe for misery.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

None of us has control over our DNA or the cards we were dealt

So why stop people from trying to change their cards? Why treat them as if they're always what they were born?

But I don't see you as someone who is just trying to change the cards you were dealt. I see you as someone whose aim is to steal other people's cards - and grab all the poker chips so you can hog them all for yourself too. You are insisting that you and other males like you must be allowed to dictate the rules of the game for everyone in the world, and that you and other males must always win at all costs, even though you know that your winning means untold numbers girls and women all lose.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for responding. But since you admit you are "pretty young" and that you have no evidence whatsoever for claiming that there was "a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms" in the past, I really have to wonder: how is it that you can so comfortably and confidently say things that malign entire generations of older women? What do you think gives you the right to do this?

Do you think badmouthing entire generations of women like this really helps convince other people that you are a woman yourself, that you know what it's like to be a woman, and you have women's best interests at heart?

One of my favorite people is a lesbian friend of mine and she's wonderful, her and her gf are couple goals (and yes this person knows I'm trans and I've never shamed her for not being attracted to trans people, that would be v rude).

You really think that because you say one of your fave people is a lesbian, and you've never shamed her for not dating or bedding males, it means you're not homophobic against lesbians? Oy vey.

If you want to slag off older generations for climate change, have at it. But please stop spreading total lies about entire generations of older women that paint us all as horrible homophobes who had special hostility towards and were in a panic about lesbians. I actually think earlier generations were generally less homophobic and more accepting of diversity and nonconformity that younger people who've bought into and are peddling gender identity nonsense.

For a picture of what the past was like, watch the movie "Silkwood," based on the true story of anti-nuclear activist Karen Silkwood, who died in 1979 on her way to meet a NY Times reporter with information about nefarious doings in the nuclear waste industry. In the movie, Silkwood, played by Meryl Streep, shares a house with her boyfriend played by Kurt Russell and her best friend, a lesbian named Dolly played by Cher. Neither Silkwood nor her BF or anyone else in the movie has any problem with Dolly being a lesbian. Dolly is presented as a person who is as normal and as quirky as everyone else in the movie. The woman Dolly has a love affair with, a hairdresser played by Diana Scarwid, is like a zillion other "ordinary" women. No one in the film finds them odd or is in a panic about them being around or using women's change rooms. In the 1970s most women had no problem with lesbians. And there were lots of lesbians out and about back then.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No like I don't think there's anything wrong with that and that's awesome for you! it was just always a source of distress for me personally and I can't really understand the mindset

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]Juniperius 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lots of people. Obviously. As evidenced by everything from Superman to Buffy the vampire slayer to billions of dollars spent on sports leagues around the world to the existence of gyms, weightlifting supplements and videos, personal coaches, and an entire aisle in Target of exercise equipment. You really don't notice anything in the world except yourself, do you?

I myself am trying to get stronger right now. I used to be in quite good shape before I had a period of chronic illness. When I was at the gym doing overhead presses or whatever, I would notice that my shoulders looked good rather than my belly looked bad, which was very helpful for my self esteem since I'm kind of on the little teapot side. Also, I've just picked up an evening job taking freight off of trucks, and while it's true that we have pallet jacks for the really heavy stuff, almost everything on that semi we pick up with our hands and put on carts, and four hours of that is pretty tiring.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It doesn't sound like a superpower to me it sounds like a way to be obselete in a modern society where that strength is not required. It sounds like a reason that some people with that bully others. I never wanted to be strong or tall, who would want to be a caveman?

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I said castration because I don't want to type the name of genitalia. I wanted to get rid of everything and still do. Idk why I even try to share that stuff when you're basically saying you don't believe me. Just feels like shit.

I was a weird gender dysphoric kid. But even if I hadn't been, even if it'd developed later, I'd still be trans and need to transition. And you already know my mom doesn't support me. No one in my family does.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]HouseplantThought crime is violence, rape threats are self expression 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Teams share a common goal. It is not possible for transwomen to be on the same team as the very women they call genital fetishists and bigots and other assorted homophobia. It is not possible for transwomen demanding by access to womens amenities and services to be on the same team as women who require male-free spaces and services.

What common goals do you think a transwoman has with a woman?

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What is the difference...?

Everything Else! 6/15/22 by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

All of this is so great! Congratulations!!!!

And that pie sounds amazing and now I must make one

Everything Else! 6/15/22 by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]HouseplantThought crime is violence, rape threats are self expression 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Nice to see you around again! Glad you and yours are well!

Things are super busy here. Since February, I’ve gone from doing one domestic clean a week as a favour, to having a cleaning business with an employee, getting truckloads of contracts from a local real estate, plus recommendations from them to a second, larger real estate company. It’s amazing and very lucky but wow it came outta nowhere. Physical labour has led to some crazy changes in my body but it’s been good. Didn’t think I’d enjoy not being a scrawny noodle so much. Only downside is now I can’t see anything but what needs scrubbing when I get home, lol.

Barely touched my sewing machine the last few months but it will be worth it come fabric shopping time, haha.

Best pies..strawberry-rhubarb-apple in short crust with homemade custard. I’ll have one of those for a last meal, plus vegetable gyoza, minestrone soup with too much pasta and beans, green beans with garlic and sesame seeds, and an entire loaf of toasted milk bread with some very high quality butter. And like six cups of coffee, no sugar. And a dampfnudel with blackberry filling!

I haven’t had lunch yet and it shows lol.

My arthritis is finally managed, and don’t need any biologics or methotrexate yet! Probably will in the next five years but that’s nothing to worry about now.

The families are doing well, everyone is well and happy, we’re all excited for a new nephew come the end of July.
Can’t help but think we’re an incredibly lucky bunch.

Hope everyone else here is just as lucky and having a good time.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Idk how you can claim that trans women are all dangerous r*posts and then later say there are male people you care about?

Yikes, you really need to learn abut categories and logic.

No one claimed that all TW are dangerous. Or that all males are dangerous.

Women don't want TW in our "safe spaces" because TW are male. Males commit nearly all sex crimes (98%), and the vast majority of those crimes (88%) are committed against females - and one of the consequences of male sex crimes for female people is that we can end up pregnant through rape. Moreover, males are bigger and stronger and faster than females, which makes us very easy prey for the bad guys - sitting ducks.

But even males who don't pose a physical threat to females are usually sexually interested in girls and women and are very very interested in looking at us when we are naked or partially undressed, and generally prying into our private business. Some males are fetishists and pervs. Other males are just pushy. Many males sexually harass and pester girls and women... And all males who stand to pee into toilets end up getting their stinky male urine all over the toilet seats and the floors, which creates a bunch of problems for girls and women since we have to sit to do our business.

So to protect girls and women from male sex assault as well as from unwanted male sexual attention and a variety of other bothersome, unhygienic male behaviors, the rule is to segregate restrooms, locker rooms and places like shelters and prisons by sex. It's easier to keep ALL males out than to have special rules that let some males in based on how nice they are as individuals.

Men and boys raised to respect girls and women have always understood that the best and most efficient way to keep the minority of males who are predatory, dangerous and creepy out of female spaces is to keep ALL males out. They've never had a problem with that.

But now there's this huge group of males who do have a problem with it. They find it outrageous that girls and women desire and traditionally have been allowed to have places where they as males can't enter and aren't wanted. They say they must be allowed into those places, and they don't care how women and girls feel about it. Funny thing is, the males who are demanding they be be allowed to remove girls' and women's right to safe spaces away from males say they "identify as" and "feel like" girls and women themselves. Some say they actually are us like you do.

If males who claim to "identify as" women had any compassion for girls and women, and any understanding of what it's like to be female, then they/you would see how distressing and scary it is to be on the receiving end of the onslaught of male aggression, intrusiveness and abusiveness that TW are dishing out to us on the daily. But it seems to be beyond you.

“What is a Woman” by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I did lol was multitasking and mis typed

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I remember being 6 years old and thinking about castrating myself with scissors.

Wow, you were precocious to know all about surgical castration when you were 6! Most kids that age don't understand the significance of testicles yet.

Also, in the retconned standard narrative TW tell of their childhoods, or mothers of trans kids tell, the line is usually that as a little boy so and so wanted to cut his penis off with scissors - or nail scissors in some versions. This is the first time I've heard someone say they wanted to go for the balls.

“What is a Woman” by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]penelopekitty 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Radfems have been against this ideology since the 1970s. I think you mean libfems.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]Juniperius 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Super strength and speed, of course. Compared to a woman of exactly the same height and weight and level of general health, a man is absurdly strong. Add that to the fact that men are on average 5 inches taller and proportionally heavier.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is there some sort of problem with china making pharmaceutical products? It's possible to buy enough estradiol raws to last someone years, so I'm grateful for that backup plan if I can't ever get my medication through the medical system here.

No, no problem. I just was pointing out that you are naive if you think getting stuff from China is somehow avoiding big business and mass manufacturing. You made it sound like TW all are making estradiol from growing your own soybeans in yams in your own yard or buying it from from a craft compounding operation that makes up bespoke formulations from home-grown or artisan ingredients.

Sorry I was never in sports, I guess? I was a band and dance nerd in school

Just because you didn't personally do sports in school means you've never known or noticed any girls or women who did? I've never played American football, basketball or golf, but I've seen quite a few Super Bowls, NBA championships and golf tourneys on TV. I can reel off the names of big sports stars in men's sports that I've never played and never had a chance of playing. I've never competed in the Olympics, but I've watched a lot of Olympics coverage.

Lots of people watch and follow sports they don't do personally. I really don't get this kind of weird world view that you have. Life must be dull if you only pay attention to things that directly affect you personally.

Since you insist you are a woman and you say you have always believed yourself to be female, it seems odd to me that you have so little information and curiosity about female anatomy and physiology. To fill you in: teenage girls and women who do sports have MUCH higher rates of lower limb injuries than males. This is due to physical factors like the changes in ligaments, tendons and muscles over the course of the monthly ovulation-menstruation cycle and the greater Q angle that girls develop as they undergo skeletal growth and their pelvis and hips widen. And it's due to the fact that pretty much all sports training is based on and geared towards male bodies.

Female athletes are at a higher risk for ACL injuries than males. The risk of ACL injuries in female teenage athletes is up to six times higher than in male athletes of the same age, competing in the same sports. The risk of an ACL injury is highest in the 15-19 age groups and among those playing sports such as soccer, volleyball and basketball. The majority of ACL injuries are non-contact injuries resulting from landing from a jump, performing a cutting maneuver, or decelerating suddenly.

One of the biological reasons female athletes are at higher risk is that their hips are wider than males. This characteristic makes them great squatters but puts their Q-angle at a higher degree than males This Q-angle which is about 18 degrees, where as a male’s is about 12 degrees, tends to cause a Valgus position (shown below). Video analysis has shown that during landing, cutting and decelerating movements on occasions when injury occurred, the knee or knees tended to be in (or very close to) full extension; the body’s center of mass was behind and away from the weight bearing limb and the knee was in a valgus position — i.e., with the hip internally rotated and adducted and the tibia externally rotated.

https://demonactivities.com/acl-prevention/

Although the same anatomical and physiological factors that affect girls and women doing sports affect girls and women who dance, in some fields of dance such as traditional ballet the training that girls get starting in childhood is protective:

The increased incidence of anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injuries in female athletes, particularly in sports like soccer, led to a similar analysis in dancers. The ACL is one of the four critical stabilizing ligaments in the knee, and an injury to it can be devastating, requiring surgical repair and/or 9-12 months of rehabilitation.

Interestingly, the incidence of ACL injury in female ballerinas is relatively low. At the Harkness Center for Dance Injuries, research showed that the jump training young dancers received in traditional ballet programs reduced their risk of such injuries compared to other female athletes. The emphasis on landing a jump with the balls of the feet first promotes a protective knee bend on impact. Indeed, research in female soccer players concurrently revealed that improper landing technique and a quadriceps/hamstring strength imbalance contributed significantly to their higher incidence of ACL injuries versus males. It is now recommended that female athletes learn how to land from a jump correctly (bending the knees to absorb the shock of landing) and undergo directed hamstring strengthening as part of a standard preventative program.

ACL injuries can and do occur in dancers—they are just at lower risk than other female athletes.

https://www.rmaeug.com/danceakp.html

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]penelopekitty 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have never been sexually harassed by another woman in all of my 50+ years. Not even once. I've lost count of how many men have been sexually inappropriate with me in my lifetime. Men do not belong in women's spaces. Especially not where we might be physically vulnerable or fully or partially undressed.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What I meant is just that I can kind of sense you’re going through a lot, even if it just seems like emotional a lot to me because I don’t know your life lol, and I just don’t want to push you, I guess? I know it’s mostly you responding and I know I have a sharp tongue (errr… finger?) so I just wanted to back off.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What's the "superpower" supposed to be for male people

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean u don't have to do anything for me!

Isn't there a difference between like, something being immutable in theory vs in practice? Like yeah I can't change everything relating to sex right now, I can mainly just change how people perceive me, and body parts like with SRS. I would do more if I could or when it becomes possible.

Sure my general optimist view that transhumanist tech will take off is partly bc I'm still hoping to be saved somehow, but if everyone believed sex was unchangeable, there'd be no one trying to prove that wrong, I guess.

Sorry if my responses are alarming it's not my intention. I am kinda going through a lot rn on top of this.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]Juniperius 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

by a disability you don't have

Being a woman is not a disability but in that example I would only be using it after I had also made myself no longer able.

I didn't say that being a woman is a disability, but in a certain sense you could call maleness and femaleness each a disability in one area coupled with a superpower in another area.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t have preferred pronouns lol

I wouldn’t gaf if you called me he

Cox is an obvious man

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So as of now it is immutable and you’re claiming that it isn’t and that makes no sense to me.

Like you’re saying you’ll just deny reality because you can’t accept it, and I understand why, but it doesn’t change reality.

Your responses are honestly a bit alarming and I don’t want to push you or cause any upset so I think maybe I’ll just stop. I’m honestly concerned by your answers and I can’t do anything for you and I just don’t want to idk. I don’t want you to not be okay because I said something

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

None of us has control over our DNA or the cards we were dealt

So why stop people from trying to change their cards? Why treat them as if they're always what they were born?

Idk I want to get out alive and live forever and certainly not in this body I was born in.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm pretty young, I'll have to research this more, sorry. I'm glad that you didn't experience it at least! You've lived an interesting life _^

Finally, the way you try to make it seem like TW and lesbians have common cause regarding restrooms and locker rooms is more forced teaming.

We are on the same team @_@

. My hunch is that you are projecting your own homophobia and prejudice against lesbians onto entire generations of older women. Please stop. It's sexist and presumptuous of you

I'm mostly repeating what I've always been told but there's a chance that's incorrect or not as general info. I don't think I am prejudiced against lesbians though? One of my favorite people is a lesbian friend of mine and she's wonderful, her and her gf are couple goals (and yes this person knows I'm trans and I've never shamed her for not being attracted to trans people, that would be v rude). If anything I am a little biased against older people because they're the ones most responsible for the lack of action on climate change today that my generation is going to have to deal with.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean you think I'm one of those so I'm just speaking against "my own kind"

Idk how you can claim that trans women are all dangerous r*posts and then later say there are male people you care about?

I transitioned because I wasn't worthy of love or anything when I was a boy, I'm trying to put that behind me so that I could maybe experience that someday. The only people who have been consistently kind to me are women and trans people. I've never met a man that didn't want to use me in some way. If I'm going to bring any kindness or love into the world I can't do it as a man

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've wanted to try so that I can touch grass and stuff and maybe as a component of witchcraft, but yeah I'd probably leave all of the lookalikes alone.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is our goal too. People shouldn't be limited by their sex. Women can take on whatever jobs, lovers, social roles, clothing, whatever, doesn't matter, none of it is forbidden to women. Same with men. None of your behaviors, personality traits, aesthetics, preferences, whatever, are wrong for a man to have/want/do/be. No one should be limited by their sex.

I agree with all of this <3 none of my personality would be wrong for men to have, I'm just not one of them.

by a disability you don't have

Being a woman is not a disability but in that example I would only be using it after I had also made myself no longer able.

accommodation for people who would otherwise be excluded from society

No like I get why it's necessary but don't trans women also fall into this category?

Similarly, I think you should have some sort of accommodations for your mental illness that makes you reject your sex

Tbh the only one I need is the chance to try and live a normal life without letting other people know about that. It's hard if it were illegal for me to do that in certain situations. Like I've changed my ID because otherwise it's kinda immediately obvious whenever I buy alcohol or rent an apartment. I know GC ppl who want to make changing sex on IDs illegal

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Males aren't deserving of trust and love

Who the eff do you think you are to tell me that the males in my life whom I know, trust and love aren't deserving of trust and love?

Also, why do you give yourself permission to say things that are openly, blatantly misandrist against all males, but you tell girls and women we are hateful and horrible for wanting to keep males out of a few select spaces and our sports for reasons of safety, privacy, dignity, wellbeing and fairness?

Why are males who want to be women allowed to be wary of other males, but women are not allowed to express the same sentiments? Why are you so adamant about asserting that personal comfort and protection from harm is your right whilst at the same time you are so insistent about denying this same right to girls and women?

You treating me as something I never asked for

Oh grow up. Some of your stock answers make you sound like you're 8. None of us asked to be born. None of us has control over our DNA or the cards we were dealt. Everyone has a cross to bear of some kind. Lots of people on planet earth suffer just as much or far worse than people with gender dysphoria. And you know what- no one gets out of our earthly existence alive, either.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Kid derrple did, at least. I had an imaginary friend that was just a female version of me, I'd just escape and daydream of having any other life but this. I remember being 6 years old and thinking about castrating myself with scissors. I thought I would grow up to be a woman. when I was in colorguard I felt a v strong sense of belonging because even though I was the only boy they treated me like everyone else, we wore the same outfits and makeup. It just felt like if only I were different I would have fit in fine. I just knew very early there was something wrong and that I couldn't tell anyone.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You going into a women's bathroom is like an able person parking in a disabled parking spot. The disabled parking spot is not to limit you, it is to prevent someone else from being limited by a disability you don't have. The women's restroom is not to limit you, it is an accommodation for people who would otherwise be excluded from society -look up how girls in some parts of the world are not able to go to school during their periods if you don't get why this is necessary.

Well said! Also, derple seems oblivious to the fact that girls and women are not just more physically exposed and vulnerable when we use toilets due to our female anatomy, we are also physically far less likely to be able to fend off or get away from a male attacker than another male is - and when men rape girls and women, a common consequence we have to worry about and deal with is pregnancy. Derple seems to have no idea how much the fear and dread of unwanted pregnancy being forced on us via rape affects the outlook of girls and women.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nothing about it is immutable. I'm just having this convo too early and I wish I'd been born 100 years from now.

it’s kind of odd to not accept the biological proof we have currently.

I can't accept any proof that would require me to think of myself as a man.

I think the goal of trans people should be acceptance for being trans, not trying to convince the rest of us that you’re the opposite sex than you are

Ik some others who want to live like that, so maybe. But I'm not proud of being trans, I'm really ashamed and embarrassed of it, I would not want to be allowed in somewhere out of pity. That'd just make me feel like more of an other tbh

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They're men ofc they can be judged for that

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can easily explain why I am woman. Because of biology, it's that simple. I am adult human female.

I'm a woman trapped in biology that doesn't match what I am, then.

some of you even taking selfies of their adventures

Yeah I've always found that weird I don't get why people would have their phone out in a bathroom at all.

And of course, you have all the TRAs starting a witch hunt anytime they a woman speaking out about males using spaces designed for women.

What about y'all starting a witch hunt every time any organization says anything positive about a trans woman? Like Emily Bridges' interview or a trans woman EMT who was piled on just for dating to be trans.

Yeah people should speak out against efforts to cast trans women as men

the number of people like you keeps increasing

You know that when society became a bit less homophobic, or at least after marriage equality here, the number of LGB people went up, because it wasn't as shameful to be LGB. It's the same for trans people now, I think. I wouldn't have been able to be trans if I hadn't learned it was a thing one could be.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So, why cannot you apply this when it comes to trans issues

Because no one is going to die if they mistake me for a woman -.-

Women have no way to know anything of this about you.

Okay so they can continue to just not know that I'm trans

Source?

https://twitter.com/LaurakBuzz/status/1479030778344493063?t=c8YYHJLZ4skXn2A6a_M5_Q&s=19

Here's an older article on an example: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/mar/17/sarahhall

C'mon, derrple, there is a reason why you're afraid of men, but not women.

I've been abused more by men, men are more dangerous, I simply don't believe trans women should be tarred with that same assumption of danger once we've also been living under threat of it.

Don't you think that collecting data of trans identified people but not counting certain trans identified people alter the statistics?

If it's to stop people from stirring up transphobia it's imo a good thing.

And yet I've not seen the same level of violence coming from the GC side.

No y'all's is a lot more insidious when it happens. Janice Raymond being almost singlehandedly responsible for the rollback of public health coverage for trans care during the Reagan administration. Magdalen Burns who called trans women blackface actors. Helen Joyce trying to buddy up with Matt Walsh to destroy trans people at any cost even the cost of working with a literal fascist misogynist.

Or, the trans woman who was beaten up at a protest in the UK a few months back.

I won't deny that there are violent trans activists and I will never support violence of any kind. Just that GC is far from saintly.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Jeez, you'd better never get into foraging. Edible plants/mushrooms vs poisonous lookalikes would be a real problem for you.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But you said the hormone formulations TW rely on don't come from Big Pharma.

What I meant by that is there isn't a shadow organization pulling strings.

Is there some sort of problem with china making pharmaceutical products? It's possible to buy enough estradiol raws to last someone years, so I'm grateful for that backup plan if I can't ever get my medication through the medical system here.

or as raw materials are made or derived from plants - soybeans or yams

Yeah I mentioned yams too, I've been wanting to try synthesizing it myself with a chemistry-minded friend of mine.

Also bioidentical estradiol doesn't mean natural; it simply means it has the same molecular structure as the estradiol made by human ovaries.

I certainly know estradiol is not the only estrogen humans produce or use in our bodies. But if it has the same molecular structure then it's literally the same thing; who cares if it's natural or not? Not like I could tell the difference.

And unless it's coming from ovaries, the most common way that estradiol is made in the human body is by aromatizing either androstenedione into estrone and then converting the estrone into estradiol, or by converting the androstenedione into testosterone and then converting the testosterone into estradiol. The testicles and other sites in the male reproductive tract are a main source of estradiol in males.

Without regular doses my levels of both would crash to nothing and I get incredibly depressed. My gonads no longer function after years of HRT and I'm happy with that. Ty for the article though!

But the fact that you have never heard about Q angles anywhere else is a reflection on you, not on anyone else

Sorry I was never in sports, I guess? I was a band and dance nerd in school

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yet you would never say this to lesbian women. And people literally did, there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms, and it was absurd and homophobic. On what basis should the default be to assume that everyone is transphobic?

No one would ever say this to lesbian women because lesbians are women, FFS. Lesbians don't have dicks and balls. Lesbians don't have the male gaze, male entitlement, male pushiness, male rape mentality, male body strength, speed and power or male hand span, punching power and grip strength. Lesbians don't have form for menacing women, flashing their genitals and masturbating in public places. Lesbians don't have the ability to impregnate, either.

Also, can you please tell me exactly when and where this panic about lesbians in women's locker rooms occurred? I have been using women's locker rooms since I was a little girl in the late 1950s, and I never, ever heard of this or saw any evidence of this panic. Most of the women's locker rooms I have used have been in the USA. However, I have traveled a fair bit, and in my travels I've never seen or heard this either. But all the places I've ever been there have been lesbians around - and my recollection is that the vast majority of girls and women who are not lesbians themselves don't feel discomfort around lesbians, much less "panic."

I don't deny that lesbians have faced a lot of homophobia and discrimination. I know lots of lesbians, have lots of lesbian friends, and I had lesbian great aunts born at the end of the 19th century - so I have some sense of the prejudices that lesbians have experienced. I just have never seen this particular manifestation of it.

Maybe I'm blocking it out, but I honestly don't recall any time in the last nearly 70 years when there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms. On the contrary, similar to sports, women's locker rooms traditionally have always been a place where women of all sexual orientations got on just fine. One of the best things about the relationship between Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert in the 1970s was that they were fierce rivals on the tennis court, and great pals and sources of mutual support for one another in the locker room - and behind the scenes generally. Which is how it has always been between lesbians and the majority of straight women in the USA my whole life.

Now that I've wracked my memory, and asked a lot of friends if they recall this panic (including a number of lesbians ranging in ages from their 50s to late 80s), I have to say I really resent young trans activists today claiming there used to be a moral panic amongst women about lesbians in women's locker rooms and other female spaces. I especially resent when male TRAs inform me that this is how things used to be. You are smearing whole swathes of the female population much older than you by telling us we all felt and displayed homophobia towards lesbians that a great many of us did not feel or display. My hunch is that you are projecting your own homophobia and prejudice against lesbians onto entire generations of older women. Please stop. It's sexist and presumptuous of you.

Finally, the way you try to make it seem like TW and lesbians have common cause regarding restrooms and locker rooms is more forced teaming.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]HouseplantThought crime is violence, rape threats are self expression 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Cancer cures have been actively worked on for longer than you or I have been alive and yet cancer remains.

Investigation is not a promise, or an assertion of possibility. Snake oil salesmen can actively work on male pregnancy until the sun dies. It won’t make it feasible.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Because its basic respect. I use your preferred pronouns. You wouldn't like it if I referred to you as "he". Cox is no different.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The people I know buy estradiol raws from China, the precursor to the oil-suspended estradiol that is usually prescribed to trans women. It's not really practical to manufacture raws on our own, it's a synthesization process that starts with purple yams or other phytoestrogens.

But you said the hormone formulations TW rely on don't come from Big Pharma. China is Big Pharma. China is the world's single largest supplier of basic chemicals and active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs) that provide the raw materials for the global pharmaceutical industry. From big industrial factories owned and operated by companies like J & J, Roche, AbbVie, Sanofi, Pfizer, Bristol Meyer, etc to licensed compounding pharmacies to individuals with a chem lab in their garage or a meth lab in their RV - most everyone in the drugs trade nowadays gets their raw materials from China, a country with more than 6000 pharmaceutical companies.

Now China is increasingly focusing on the development and production of finished pharmaceutical products (FPPs), primarily to serve the domestic market - which is the second largest drugs market in the world after the USA - but also with an eye to making FPPs for export. But the new focus on FPPs isn't to supplant China's role as the largest producer of the raw materials for all the makers of FPPs outside of China, it's to supplement it. China wants to keep its position as the main source of APIs and other pharma ingredients as it also produces more and more FPPs.

Today, all of the world's major estrogen products - whether you buy them already in finished form, or as raw materials are made or derived from plants - soybeans or yams - except for Premarin, which still is made from horse urine.

I have a hunch you think that estradiol is the only estrogen women's bodies produce and that "bioidentical estradiol" means the same thing as "natural estradiol." Neither is true. Estradiol is the major estrogen women produce from the ovaries, but it's not the only estrogen we produce.

Also bioidentical estradiol doesn't mean natural; it simply means it has the same molecular structure as the estradiol made by human ovaries. Another name is17β-estradiol.

Everyone produces a bit of estradiol unless they have a condition otherwise.

Yes, this is true. And unless it's coming from ovaries, the most common way that estradiol is made in the human body is by aromatizing either androstenedione into estrone and then converting the estrone into estradiol, or by converting the androstenedione into testosterone and then converting the testosterone into estradiol. The testicles and other sites in the male reproductive tract are a main source of estradiol in males.

Estradiol is produced especially within the follicles of the ovaries, but also in other tissues including the testicles, the adrenal glands, fat, liver, the breasts, and the brain. Estradiol is produced in the body from cholesterol through a series of reactions and intermediates.[10] The major pathway involves the formation of androstenedione, which is then converted by aromatase into estrone and is subsequently converted into estradiol. Alternatively, androstenedione can be converted into testosterone, which can then be converted into estradiol.

The effect of estradiol (and estrogens in general) upon male reproduction is complex.

Estrogens have traditionally been considered female hormones. Nevertheless, the presence of estrogen in males has been known for over 90 years. Initial studies suggested that estrogen was deleterious to male reproduction because exogenous treatments induced developmental abnormalities.

However, demonstrations of estrogen synthesis in the testis and high concentrations of 17β-estradiol in rete testis fluid suggested that the female hormone might have a function in normal male reproduction. Identification of estrogen receptors and development of biological radioisotope methods to assess estradiol binding revealed that the male reproductive tract expresses estrogen receptor extensively from the neonatal period to adulthood.

This indicated a role for estrogens in normal development, especially in efferent ductules, whose epithelium is the first in the male reproductive tract to express estrogen receptor during development and a site of exceedingly high expression. In the 1990s, a paradigm shift occurred in our understanding of estrogen function in the male, ushered in by knockout mouse models where estrogen production or expression of its receptors was not present. These knockout animals revealed that estrogen's main receptor (estrogen receptor 1 [ESR1]) is essential for male fertility and development of efferent ductules, epididymis, and prostate, and that loss of only the membrane fraction of ESR1 was sufficient to induce extensive male reproductive abnormalities and infertility.

This review provides perspectives on the major discoveries and developments that led to our current knowledge of estrogen's importance in the male reproductive tract and shaped our evolving concept of estrogen's physiological role in the male.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6044326/

The only time I have ever heard Q angles used in the context of trans people is by this infamous Twitter user bevvie112,

But the fact that you have never heard about Q angles anywhere else is a reflection on you, not on anyone else. Matters like Q angles come up in many discussions entirely separately to discussions about trans. Not everything is about you and the trans lobby.

Women and our bodies existed and we had issues in sports and other situations due our Q angles long before the current-day trans movement got going and long before males started using gender identity claims to horn in on women's and girls' sports. You seem to think the only reason GC women or anyone else would know about biology, human sex differences and female physiology in particular is so we can refute the claims made by QT and TRAs. Again, not everything is about TW or in reference to TW.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]HouseplantThought crime is violence, rape threats are self expression 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, I think physical harm is something that can be objectively measured by people who understand the human body. It’s certainly not up to anyone who thinks their hearts can be surgically shrunk to match their gender feels.

I am not the one who is saying my feelings should dictate how the world works.

It’s a public space so actually, males using that space does disrupt female autonomy. Male autonomy ends at the door to allow female autonomy in the public space. Have a look at the history of the womens public toilet. You’ll find they are crucial to working outside the home and engaging in the public sphere.

I’d like to assure you that it is extremely atypical, and could be perceived as pathologically lacking care for others to claim you support people dying for the perfection of cosmetic surgery.

This is something perhaps better discussed with someone qualified to break down and explain to you exactly why this is bizarre and harmful.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How do you know it's sulphuric acid? I can't say until I actually see the effects of it, it could be doubly mislabeled.

I know because I am the one making the example up! Whatever, the way you phrased this betrays that you do understand that perception don't trump reality. So, why cannot you apply this when it comes to trans issues.

I've been easily overpowered by women and trans men before, I'm infertile because of HRT and the thought of having biological kids makes me nauseous, I've never been violent because I refuse to be like the men who abused me, and I've never even initiated sexual contact with someone. Me being trans doesn't erase historical oppression, but I'm not evil or a threat, that is the last thing I want to be.

Women have no way to know anything of this about you. Again, barying males from women's bathrooms is nothing personal against you or any male, however said male identify as. We just cannot know wheter a male stranger is safe or not.

That doesn't change that sexual predation still simply shouldn't happen. It doesn't make it better because you have a slightly better chance of fighting it off.

Slightly better is and understatement. And you are forgeting the part where men are way more likely to be sexual predators. C'mon, derrple, there is a reason why you're afraid of men, but not women.

To me? When talking to my doctor to plan SRS or other transition care. Or family planning because I would like to be a mother idk. The sex of partners doesn't matter to me at all.

What? No, I was asking in general. No everything is about you...

Which is disgusting and sexist. Women can be rapists. And no, you're wrong, even under British law women can be charged with rape as accessories to a male rapist, I will find the numbers but the vast majority of British women incarcerated for rape were not trans.

Source?

What's wrong with that? They're still horrible criminals.

Don't you think that collecting data of trans identified people but not counting certain trans identified people alter the statistics?

I've had some very thoughtful convos with trans people my age and a lot agree with me that that angry rhetoric does no one any good. Angry people on twitter are not the majority, as anywhere the loudest and most violent voices dominate sadly.

And yet I've not seen the same level of violence coming from the GC side.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't need to. Any more than anyone else here does, I simply am.

I can easily explain why I am woman. Because of biology, it's that simple. I am adult human female.

Y'all have mainly given a ton of fearmongering and hate stirring mostly over those in totally different situations like prisons. It's not like you listen to me either, when I tell you that trans people have been using the bathroom for decades and that it was never a problem before... We are just talking past each other.

It has always been a problem! The only reason you face more vocal opposition right now is because you (general you) cannot hide your actions anymore because the number of people like you keeps increasing and because you all are quite vocal about it with some of you even taking selfies of their adventures into women's restrooms. And of course internet makes easier for women to spread the word in spite of how much Big Tech try to supress dissenting voices. And of course, you have all the TRAs starting a witch hunt anytime they a woman speaking out about males using spaces designed for women.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

but a bathroom is not a personal boundary that you get to exclude an entire group of women from.

If a bathroom is not a personal boundary, then you wouldn't care either if all bathrooms become unisex and you have to share them with regular males, right? After all, who are you to exclude half the population of using public bathrooms? Saying men may pose a risk to you sounds like fearmongering, you know? You cannot judge all men for the actions of a few abusive men, don't you think so?

Of course, you know that I'm talking nonsense here. Yet, when women try to explain to you why we don't want males however they identify as in places like bathrooms, you act outraged.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s my point, you reject the actual bio proof that exists but would want us to accept something that doesn’t exist if it did. That doesn’t track to me. If you’re saying when or if a trans person can change sex it’s kind of odd to not accept the biological proof we have currently.

I think the goal of trans people should be acceptance for being trans, not trying to convince the rest of us that you’re the opposite sex than you are. I’d be significantly more comfortable sharing some spaces and using pronouns as a courtesy if this is how things were, personally.

Sex is factually immutable. It just is. I don’t really know what else to say about it.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's probably part of it, but even before that there were signs.

Like which ones? What made you think you were a girl? You're contradicting yourself. You said being a "woman" it's a matter of how other people perceive you. However, unless you started "medical transition" when you were very young, I doubt other people perceived child derrple as a "girl".

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sex is immutable. You can change characteristics indicative of sex but sex itself remains unchanged.

I get what you’re saying about being invisible, I was just speaking in general. I don’t believe most trans people pass but I don’t deny that some can. Even when I was an ally and staunch believer in TWAW and TMAM, in my experience most people don’t see them as the sex they wish, but agree it’s not costing them anything to call them what they prefer.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

people shouldn't be limited by their sex

This is our goal too. People shouldn't be limited by their sex. Women can take on whatever jobs, lovers, social roles, clothing, whatever, doesn't matter, none of it is forbidden to women. Same with men. None of your behaviors, personality traits, aesthetics, preferences, whatever, are wrong for a man to have/want/do/be. No one should be limited by their sex.

And we should have measures in place to make sure that people aren't limited by their sex- just like how we have accessibility and accomodations to help people with disabilities not be limited by them, which are not open to people without those disabilities, we also have accomodations and other measures in place to make sure people aren't limited by their sex. You going into a women's bathroom is like an able person parking in a disabled parking spot. The disabled parking spot is not to limit you, it is to prevent someone else from being limited by a disability you don't have. The women's restroom is not to limit you, it is an accommodation for people who would otherwise be excluded from society -look up how girls in some parts of the world are not able to go to school during their periods if you don't get why this is necessary.

Note that we don't allow accommodations for one group to get in another group's way. For example, we might add a sign language interpreter or captions to accommodate deaf people, but we don't require things to be only in sign language, since that would harm blind people. Similarly, I think you should have some sort of accommodations for your mental illness that makes you reject your sex, but it certainly should not interfere with the accommodations that make it possible for women to take part in society.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Women are saying that we don't want males in female spaces and sports no matter how the males claim to identify and no matter what alterations males have made to their bodies and appearance.

I'm saying you don't have the right to universally treat trans women as males just because of our biology or birth sex no matter what we've changed about ourselves.

But we still don't want even the males we love and trust

Males aren't deserving of trust and love

Or we didn't used to until males very recently started using gender identity claims to invad

Can you name one person who's done that, who's not trans and just faking it?

And please enough with the drama. No one is going to throw you in jail for taking exogenous hormones or wearing a bra.

Maybe not but you would if I let people assume I'm a woman in public and don't announce my transness when I go to work or use the bathroom.

You think women saying "no" is the same as us saying we hate you.

You treating me as something I never asked for and that I'm actively in the process of changing, no matter what I do, yes, is the same as saying you hate me. You have personal boundaries like everyone else! but a bathroom is not a personal boundary that you get to exclude an entire group of women from.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd probably need medication or dialysis to support my kidneys, if there's no way to cause the usual kidney growth.

Do you show your own mother and gran such disrespect?

My mom has said horrible things to me about me dating a man and about me being trans, for that and other stuff I won't get into I don't respect her. We are barely on speaking terms. Unfortunately my grandmother is dead and I miss her dearly.

The only time I have ever heard Q angles used in the context of trans people is by this infamous Twitter user bevvie112, who non-stop posts about celebrities being secretly trans with the most ludicrous justifications.

But there are no overlaps between the male and female averages I mentioned

Someone could still have a smaller than average heart or maybe shrink it surgically.

fixating on surface and paid more attention to substance.

It doesn't work like that. I am horrified to live in my body inside and out, but at least when I go out people don't look at my internal organs. Their size isn't super relevant to my life.

Where are the ingredients coming for the "community sourced" hormone formulations you say you and other TW take

The people I know buy estradiol raws from China, the precursor to the oil-suspended estradiol that is usually prescribed to trans women. It's not really practical to manufacture raws on our own, it's a synthesization process that starts with purple yams or other phytoestrogens.

How do you know

Most trans people who make that stuff care about quality of product because we support each other. I trust them. It's the same source used to create what's prescribed.

My body. Everyone produces a bit of estradiol unless they have a condition otherwise.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're asking for biological proof and that's all I can really give. For now we can transition such that externally we appear to be the other sex. It's incomplete, but it's still a fledgling process of changing reality.

TW who can accept being a TW and not claim to be a woman

Do they have to be open about that irl? Idk why someone would willingly other themselves like that I guess.

it just means there’s a barrier you can’t cross

If I actually believed that sex was immutable idk what I'd be living for really. My entire goal is just to cross that gap of understanding, people shouldn't be limited by their sex like this.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well trans people are not going away, I don't know exactly what you hope to accomplish. If I'm going to get thrown in jail for taking hrt or wearing a bra someday then it'd be pretty clear to me who's in the right and wrong.

No one is saying trans people to go away. Women are saying that we don't want males in female spaces and sports no matter how the males claim to identify and no matter what alterations males have made to their bodies and appearance.

It's not personal. Most of us have male friends and relatives we love dearly. Some of us have male children. But we still don't want even the males we love and trust- and we know wouldn't hurt a fly or behave like pervs and predators - in women's spaces and sports.

In certain women's spaces like restrooms, locker rooms, fitting rooms, breastfeeding lounges, women's homeless shelters, some prisons, etc exception is made for male infants and young boys who are in the company of their mothers or other female carers. But even there we draw a very strict line. The fact that women and girls don't want to have to deal with our intimate bodily needs and get undressed in front of our male friends and with our tween, teen and adult sons, our fathers, uncles, fathers-in-law etc doesn't mean we hate them.

And in some cases, there is no allowance even for very young boys. We don't allow boys who are not as good as other boys in male sports to play girls' sports. Or we didn't used to until males very recently started using gender identity claims to invade and dominate in girls' and women's sports.

And please enough with the drama. No one is going to throw you in jail for taking exogenous hormones or wearing a bra.

The underlying issue here is that you seem to be unable to deal with women saying "no" to you. You think women saying "no" is the same as us saying we hate you. You interpret women setting boundaries as an expression of personal animus directed at you.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's probably part of it, but even before that there were signs. Even if that was the catalyst I just see that as part of who I am, really. Being a man now wouldn't undo that trauma and I'm just not really interested in being seen that way.

Sex isn’t something that can be change

What about sex can't be in principle be changed?

You’re still relying on people’s kindness when they call you trans woman with the space

I don't like to rely on people's kindness though, it's unreliable and I feel guilty for it. I don't know which of my coworkers are GC if any. I don't really want to know. As long as I stay invisible then I won't be pressuring people to be polite.

And fwiw I think a lot of people also do really see trans men and women as men and women.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then why do studies state histologically identical? Different cells could present the same tissue.

Studies are specific. The studies you cited were about what HCPs and scientists see when they use medical imaging to look at body parts. In the case of the papers you linked to, the imaging was of human breast tissue.

There are many, many studies done using microscopes to look at cells. There's vast numbers of studies and research papers on the ways cells behave. For example, the papers you cited were written to tell HCPs what tissue anomalies to look out for when reading breast scans. Whereas if you looked up breast cancer, you'd find a lot of papers about the behaviors of the cells in breast cancer.

If you search "human breast cancer" and "human breast cancer cells" you'll come up with different results. However, many research papers will deal with both tissues and cells because tissues are made of cells, and in cancer there is a problem with cellular growth and replication. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4929267/

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Pregnancy for trans women is actively being worked on and will eventually be a thing

Oh no my kidneys don't pass /j

Huh? How on earth will any TW be able to sustain a pregnancy without female kidney function? No offense, but you seem utterly clueless about what pregnancy involves.

female Q angles

Lol don't tell me you read that ridiculous transvestigation stuff which is literally the only place I see this term used.

Female Q angles are very important to those of us who do or did sports and are female, and who have coached or given sports instruction to female people. Female Q angles are a main reason teen girls and women are especially vulnerable to certain kinds of injuries in sports. My own female Q angles are a main reason I needed surgery in my 20s to correct injuries done to my knees from skiing and running in my youth.

Female Q angles are pretty important in human labor and childbirth too. The scorn and contempt you show regarding female Q angles makes you seem like not just a misogynist, but like a raving MRA. Do you show your own mother and gran such disrespect?

I dunno what "transvestigation" is - never heard of it.

Also everything you said about organs is just averages?

Yes, the stuff I said about organs are just averages. But there are no overlaps between the male and female averages I mentioned. In other words, when I said that male hearts and lungs are 25-38% and 10-12% larger and more powerful than the same organs in females, the bottom on of the male average is still 25% and 10% above the top of the female average.

I have faith that we'll figure out how to alter a lot of those in time, but I'm mainly dysphoric about stuff on the outside.

I think you would benefit a great deal if you considered why your unhappiness is mainly "about stuff on the outside." I think you might feel a lot less "dysphoric" if you stopped focusing and fixating on surface and paid more attention to substance.

Also big pharma formulations, u know a lot of dosing is community sourced right? A ton of us are obvi very invested in what we're taking and often it's us telling doctors because many just don't know the standards or the standards are, well, substandard. The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body

Where are the ingredients coming for the "community sourced" hormone formulations you say you and other TW take? Please detail the sourcing and processes that go into their manufacture. Trace the supply chain from start to finish.

The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body

How do you know? And to whose body exactly are you speaking of when you say it's "biodentical to what's produced by the body"?

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

testosterone could very well allow some to compete against cis men in many sports.

We know this isn't true because of widespread doping that's occurred in sports over many decades. The GDR in particular ran a program in the 1960s, 70s and 80s in which large numbers of female athletes took exogenous testosterone regularly throughout their tween, teen and adult years. The androgenized female athletes won all the top prizes and broke records in many women's events such as Olympic swimming, but they never came close to performing anywhere near the levels of the elite males in their sports.

Florence Griffith Joyner was believed to have been doping on androgens when she set her world records in women's sprints in the 1980s. For 33 years, no female broke her records in the 100m or 200m. But since the year 2000 alone, more than 3,600 males have run faster than her 100m record.

https://twitter.com/fondofbeetles/status/1156542238777851904?lang=en

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]Juniperius 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are uncomfortable with me being trans in the same room as them.

You mean, Are uncomfortable with you being male in the same room where they are exposing their genitals with the expectation that it is safe to do so because they believe there will never be any males there.

It's not the trans that's the problem, it's the male.

And it's not being in the same room that's the problem, it's being in a room where we specifically go to be away from males so we can take care of intimate bodily functions.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's called milk you know.

Y'all literally believe we're disgusting abominations huh?

No it's not milk. Not everything that comes out of a nipple is milk. Both males and females can have all sorts of discharge from the nipples that need evaluation by a HCP.

Nipple discharge is the commonly-used medical term. There's nothing disgusting about it - that's your word choice, not mine. People of both sexes who have nipple discharge are human beings in need of medical evaluation. You're the one equating having nipple discharge with being "disgusting abominations," not me.

Nipple discharge refers to any fluid that seeps out of the nipple of the breast.

Nipple discharge during pregnancy and breast-feeding is normal. Nipple discharge happens less commonly in women who aren't pregnant or breast-feeding. It may not be cause for concern, but it's wise to have it evaluated by a doctor to be sure.

Men who experience nipple discharge under any circumstances should be evaluated.

One or both breasts may produce a nipple discharge, either spontaneously or when you squeeze your nipples or breasts. Nipple discharge may look milky, clear, yellow, green, brown or bloody.

Discharge that isn't milk comes out of your nipple through the same ducts that carry milk. The discharge can involve a single duct or multiple ducts. The consistency of nipple discharge can vary — it may be thick and sticky or thin and watery.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/nipple-discharge/basics/definition/sym-20050946

In males especially, nipple discharge needs to be investigated urgently. Because it's often a sign of cancer.

Fluid leaking from one or both nipples is called nipple discharge. Discharge from a man's breast is not normal and should always be checked by a doctor.

Nipple discharge may be a symptom of an infection, a side effect of a medicine, or maybe a symptom of breast cancer.

Nipple discharge occurs when fluid leaks out of your nipple. Sometimes it just happens, and sometimes it happens only when you squeeze your nipple. It can happen in both of your nipples or only one. The color and consistency of the discharge depends on what’s causing it. Nipple discharge in a man should always be evaluated by a doctor.

When he is born, a man’s breasts contain the same tissue and milk ducts as a woman’s, but because they are exposed to male hormones instead of female hormones during puberty, they become mostly fat instead of growing bigger. Some of the tissue and milk ducts are left though, so many of the causes of nipple discharge are the same in men and women.

Nipple discharge doesn’t happen very often in men. When it does happen, it’s very important that you see your doctor because it may be a sign that you have breast cancer.

https://www.healthline.com/health/nipple-discharge-in-males

Fluid leaking from one or both nipples is called nipple discharge. Discharge from a man's breast is not normal and should always be checked by a doctor. Nipple discharge may be a symptom of an infection, a side effect of a medicine, or maybe a symptom of breast cancer.

Treatment depends on what is causing the nipple discharge. You may need more tests to find out the cause.

https://www.healthline.com/health/nipple-discharge-in-males

Lots of women have had discharge coming from our nipples that we've had to have checked out by a doctor. This happens even to breastfeeding mothers. Because when women breastfeed for any length of time, it's common to get cracked nipples that bacteria can enter and to develop at least one breast infection as a result.

Heck, you know that men have lactated before right? Without any of the hormonal interventions that would make it way easier for a trans woman to.

No, I don't know that men have lactated before, LOL. I do know, however, that in the 19th and 20th centuries, some white Western travel writers and students of anthropology told some anecdotes about "exotic" peoples in far away lands were some men provided comfort for their babies by holding them to their bare chests and the babies sucked on their nipples. And the tellers of these tales decided to describe the men in these few stories as lactating and breastfeeding. But that doesn't mean the men actually were lactating.

Babies are endowed with a strong urge to suck - and as a result, they suck on lots of things: fingers, clothing, pacifiers, bibs, long hanks of hair, the corner of a washcloth or towel - their own hands and fingers, and even their own toes. Given the chance, babies will suck on their father's nipples when snuggled up against their naked chests. My kids did that with their father. It doesn't mean the men in these cases are lactating and nursing. Just as when a baby sucks on a pacifier, it doesn't mean the pacifier is issuing milk and providing nutrition and immunity.

BTW, if men could lactate and breastfeed, I'd be all for it. The father of my children would have loved to have breastfed - and like many women, I happily would have let him share the job of breastfeeding, or take it over entirely.

because when we do anything that's totally normal for a mother to do it's abuse just because we're trans I forgot about that detail x(

It's not normal for a mother to write articles or go on social media bragging that the first time we held our newborns in our arms and put them to our breasts, we experienced the greatest sexual arousal of our lives. I've heard and read lots of women discuss their experiences giving birth and putting baby to breast - and I have never, ever heard or read any say it gave them the female equivalent of a raging boner. I have only heard and read this sort of thing from TW.

At any rate, please stop being so cavalier about the breastfeeding of human newborns. The survival, health and emotional wellbeing of innocent infants is at issue here. You're really not doing your side any favors by showing that you couldn't care less about the newborns whose health and wellbeing are being put at risk by the TW you extoll - all for the purpose of providing selfish TW with validation and affirmation of their gender identities, and sexual thrills after their female partners have gone through the arduous, draining and often terrifying process of human labor and childbirth.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It wouldn’t matter because a biological basis would prove that dysphoria exists and we already understand that dysphoria exists. There is a biological basis for knowing what and proving what a woman is but you reject that so it’s odd you’d ask this. I don’t understand how you can ask about a biological basis to prove your point but can’t accept the biological basis that proves mine? We can see brain scans that show dysphoria in trans people. This doesn’t prove they are the sex/gender they wish they were. We can see all types of mental conditions/anomalies through brain scans. So even if you’re sense of identity emerges from that, it doesn’t change material reality.

I would respect and be friends with (I am friends with someone like this) a TW who can accept being a TW and not claim to be a woman. If you are calling yourself a woman (hypothetical TW you, not derrple you) and claiming to identify as a woman, that’s a red flag for me. It lets me know you think womanhood is a sense of identity that anyone can claim and that’s insulting to me. And it makes me wonder if you’d (again hypothetical TW you, not derrple you) take opportunities designated for females from females (like scholarships or jobs etc).

There is no amount of trying that will make a TW belong with women. That doesn’t mean that women and TW have nothing in common on an individual basis or that women shouldn’t be friends with TW or anything like that, it also doesn’t mean that when a woman dislikes a particular TW it’s because they are trans, it just means there’s a barrier you can’t cross and it’s not your fault or my fault or anyone fault that that barrier exists, but the barrier should be respected.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Does it ever occur to you that maybe your abuse as a boy impacted you having dysphoria and identifying as your perception of a woman? Genuinely asking, not making a point tho it does seem like it’s a factor to me.

My point is still that dyed or not, you’re literally a blonde. Sex isn’t something that can be changed, and woman is a sex based term. Being blonde means you have blonde hair, being a woman means you’re an adult female human.

You’re still relying on people’s kindness when they call you trans woman with the space. To most people transwoman/trans woman is just code for man. We may understand it to refer to a type of man who wants to present as a woman,and we may be kind enough to call them she/her and not call them men, but it’s still just a word we use out of politesse, it doesn’t mean we mean it or believe it. Same for transmen/trans men. It translates to us as a type of woman who wants to present as a man.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If there's some biological basis from it would that matter? Like if there's something that showed that trans people have different brains than other people (not saying brains are gendered though) and that our identities emerge from having a brain like that?

You cannot respect women and call yourself one and truly think you are one.

Is there like, no amount of trying to belong I can do, idk

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It would be so much easier for me to accept TW are women

Well I'm trying I'll let you know in the future I guess

Why is it better to be called a boy if a boy is still a male? I just don’t get this.

Idk it's still bad but at least it's not a man, only men abused me not boys, I promised I would never grow up to become one.

If You dyed your hair blonde you’re a blonde though? Like not naturally but you can actually truly really have blonde hair. If your roots show people would know it’s not natural but you’d still be blonde? Sex doesn’t work that way, though.

It's kinda the same though like obvi if someone were in my home and saw me in the shower or something they'd know but externally I'm still the same. Transitioning isn't as simple as dyeing hair gosh I wish it was.

Also yeah idk transwoman is such an othering term that puts me in a category totally apart from women. I'm not gonna call myself that even if it means people call me a man bc of it. I'd rather be seen as a trans woman, with the space, without having to convince people than rely on people's kindness in calling me a transwoman.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s baked in only because you have a mental condition though. That’s the issue. If you could prove it based on things that aren’t feelings or appearance it would be different.

You cannot respect women and call yourself one and truly think you are one.

I don’t think it would be valid even if you personally convinced them.

I was joking about listening to your brain lol

Your explanation does make sense. Thank you

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

acknowledged it’s the result of a mental condition and I’m still a man

Yeah I doubt that idk. When it's kinda baked into me that I'm not that.

I can respect women and still have enough self-respect to see that I shouldn't have to cause myself pain in situations where there is no actual issue...if there ever is then I'll leave and probably give myself another UTI the following weeks tbh

What I’m saying is that you said the people who know you’re trans met you online. They were already pro TW in female spaces so this isn’t a big deal

R u saying it's only valid if I liked, convinced them? Because idk I'm p sure that's happened, I used to know a radfem woman who didn't think I should be in the men's. We don't talk anymore tho ig (long story no it wasn't something I did)

Sorry I think I just suck at not taking things personally here. And yeah while I was transitioning I only ever used this one out of the way single-stall bathroom in the basement on campus bc I didn't know what else to do.

Idk maybe listen to your brain in the morning

Oh wow I'm cured haha

Im confused, why do you think this way in the mornings? Like what causes it

Dysphoria? I never pass to myself lol, there are moments where I might be a little bit happier with part of my body like my hair or face but yeah. I can't really look in a mirror without thinking I look like an ugly goblin man. That everything I do is pointless. Etc etc

There's what I feel I really truly am at some core level, and then there's how I feel about my current unfortunate bodily existence. They couldn't be more opposed, really. Sorry I hope that makes sense.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you have any idea how much I’d rather be wrong?! It would be so much easier for me to accept TW are women. The reason I can’t do that is because it can’t be proven. I’d rather believe it because regardless I have to be effected by it.

Why is it better to be called a boy if a boy is still a male? I just don’t get this.

If You dyed your hair blonde you’re a blonde though? Like not naturally but you can actually truly really have blonde hair. If your roots show people would know it’s not natural but you’d still be blonde? Sex doesn’t work that way, though. I have no problem in theory calling TW transwomen, but when TW call themselves women I stop using the term TW and just call them men. If they can’t just refer to themselves as TW then I’m not going to either, but I’m not going to pretend they are a woman. If you had never called yourself a woman id have never called you a man. I have no issue with using the term transwoman here.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, some TW have taken drug regimens to cause them to develop some kind of nipple discharge

It's called milk you know.

No scientific analysis was done of the fluid that came out

I'll be sure to try and analyze it when I start making my own cheese. I'll send it off to that site you linked.

It could have been pus

Y'all literally believe we're disgusting abominations huh? Why would it be that when we have all of the structures in place to lactate? Heck, you know that men have lactated before right? Without any of the hormonal interventions that would make it way easier for a trans woman to.

Also, just for the record, many people believe that the TW who claim they have breastfed their newborns actually were engaging in clearcut abuse of the babies involved

Yeah because when we do anything that's totally normal for a mother to do it's abuse just because we're trans I forgot about that detail x(

said they were motivated by wanting to do what's best for the child

I would be, that's my motivation. I would want to be a good mom and if I'm biologically capable of it then I want to know in advance.

How can the tissue be identical when tissue is made up of cells?

A carpet can be synthetic or natural fibers but it's still a carpet lol

We just say there are functional differences between male and female breasts

Well mine function like female breasts

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would live like that because I don’t expect a group of people unrelated to me to be sacrificed for my feelings. I would also live like that because it’s the truth of the situation regardless of how that makes me feel. It wouldn’t impact my life other than when I have to pee. I’d make that choice for women because I stand by women and respect them, even the ones I don’t know, even the ones who disagree with me (though they’d have no basis to disagree about me being a TW because I acknowledged it’s the result of a mental condition and I’m still a man)

I never said I’d apologize for it, I said I’d be honest about it and would find people who accepted me for me instead of having to conceal a huge part of myself from them.

What I’m saying is that you said the people who know you’re trans met you online. They were already pro TW in female spaces so this isn’t a big deal

Let me be clear- my comments feel aimed at you specifically because you keep referring to yourself, what I’m saying I’m saying about TW in general, not derrple as a person. If you would leave if you knew someone was uncomfortable but you use those spaces because generally you pass, I don’t really have an issue with that. As I said over and over, if you pass you pass and nobody knows so nobody is uncomfortable. Other TW don’t care if they pass or not. They feel entitled simply because they are TW

It’s not my belief, it’s provable fact though

Idk maybe listen to your brain in the morning

Im confused, why do you think this way in the mornings? Like what causes it? I’m just curious because I’d think based on your comments thst you’d never think this. If it’s too personal I understand

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So once again you can prove nothing. Shocker.

It's not like there's any proof you'd actually accept lol you just want to be right too.

I’ll call you a boy then, although if you’re over 18 you’re an adult regardless of whether you finished puberty just as you’re a man regardless of how you look or feel

Honestly that's better but it still only describes a biology that I'd rather keep secret and not how my life is at all. It's like telling me I'm brown-haired...like okay? Yeah technically under the dye but everyone thinks I'm blonde. Not sure if I'll ever get why people have to be defined by that in all situations regardless of how they live. What would be the point of calling myself a boy

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

there are literally forums where trans women have figured out how to do so. There have been trans women who have breastfed.

No, some TW have taken drug regimens to cause them to develop some kind of nipple discharge while their wives were pregnant. A couple of these TW say they pumped the nipple discharge out, stored it, and later put it into bottles and forced the bottles into the mouths of hungry newborn babies who being babies with no other choice, ended up sucking the nipple discharge down. Some TW have said they put their newborn babies to their nipples and for a few moments their helpless newborn babies sucked on their nipples and in the process presumably ingested some of whatever the discharge coming out of the nipples was.

One TW who was written up in a medical case report claimed to have fed a newborn from the TW's breasts exclusively for 6 weeks - and that the baby thrived, and the baby's pediatrician heartily approved. But the doctors who wrote up the case report were gender clinic doctors with no medical expertise in obstetrics, postpartum maternity, neonatal care or lactation - and apparently no personal life experience with, or even a clue about, the care and tending of babies, either. The doctors who wrote up the case report never saw TW's baby, spoke to the baby's mother, or checked with the baby's pediatrician. For all they knew, there might not have been any baby or pregnant wife at all.

But a key fact about all these stories of supposed medical miracles is that NO scientific analysis was done of the fluid that came out of the nipples of the TW in any of the cases. Therefore, there is no evidence at all of what exactly was in the nipple discharge. The nipple discharge could have been simply pus. Most definitely it was full of the heavy-duty drugs the TW had been ingesting to stimulate nipple discharge - one of which is a drug explicitly barred in the USA for use by breastfeeding women because of the negative impacts on the health of the children. Negative impacts which the FDA says can include heart failure and death.

But whatever was oozing out of the nipples of the TW in those real or apocryphal cases, I would bet my house that it was neither colostrum nor breastmilk.

If there were any chance the nipple discharge of these TW were breastmilk or colostrum, then surely the TW and their doctors would have arranged for lab analysis to prove once and for all that it was. After all, lab analysis is not difficult or costly to do. It's done all the time nowadays.

For many years, milk banks have been testing donor milk for pathogens and to ascertain it contains the customary and necessary nutrients https://milkbank.org/faq/

A number of commercial labs now also provide of at-home kits that make getting an analysis of breastmilk easy as pie.

https://lactationlab.com/collections/breast-milk-test-kits/products/basic-test-kit

https://www.mymilklab.com/mmes/nutrition

Given how easy it is to do a thorough analysis of breast milk and all other kinds of nipple discharge, don't you find it curious that no one bothered to do it in these cases? After all, proving that what issued from the breasts of TW in these cases was colostrum and breastmilk identical to what women make - and proving that it was totally sufficient to meet the nutritional and immunity needs of newborns - would be a huge win for the QT and TRA side. It would also give TW the kind of gender validation and affirmation that the T community seeks, holds so dear and is always demanding that others provide (or else). So it seems rather telling that no one bothered to do any lab analysis. Since TP and their doctors put so much faith in the wonders of modern medical science, it's odd that taking a sample to a lab never occurred to a single person involved in any of these tales.

Also, just for the record, many people believe that the TW who claim they have breastfed their newborns actually were engaging in clearcut abuse of the babies involved. None of the TW who have engaged in this activity and have written about it or spoken to the press about it, or have been written up as medical case reports, said they were motivated by wanting to do what's best for the child. On the contrary, all said they did it for personal gratification, "the experience" and "validation" and "affirmation" of their gender identities and their "femininity." Moreover, one TW who wrote about the experience for The Stranger bragged very openly that "she" found it very sexual arousing - the biggest turn-on of "her" life, in fact - and encouraged other TW to do it for the sexual thrills. As a result, many women feel this novel form of newborn "child care" that TW have invented constitutes not just child abuse, but child sex abuse too.

In response to me saying,

there are still many differences at the cellular level

Your response is

Who the heck cares? The tissue level is identical

Really? How can the tissue be identical when tissue is made up of cells?

what's important is that my receptors behave in a way that lets my breasts be breasts, and they do.

Okay, then. But can you share exactly what you mean when you say your receptors let your "breasts be breasts"?

BTW, perhaps it's my twisted mind, but the phrase "let breasts be breasts" immediately reminded me of the oft-heard expression, "boys will be boys."

Anyways, no one GC would dispute that males have breasts. Lots of men have sizable breasts - just go visit any beach and you'll see. We just say there are functional differences between male and female breasts. Just as there are functional differences between the breasts of a woman who has never had a baby and a woman who has, and there are especially marked differences between the breasts of a woman who has recently given birth and one who has not.

In fact, there are marked differences in women's breasts over the course of our lives, and depending on our childbearing status. My own breasts are very different now than they were at 18 and 35. When I was pregnant and breastfeeding, my breasts were different to how they were before then and the way they've been since I weaned. Now that I'm past menopause age, my breasts aren't what they once were looks-wise, either. I have a hunch that when it comes to meeting male standards of what breasts should look like to be considered sexually attractive and "hot and sexy" by men and boys, your breasts probably fit the bill far, far better than mine.

GC women also say that when male human beings take hormone formulations that result in them developing visible breasts that the whole world can see with the naked eye, and which might look similar or identical to the breast tissue of some women when viewed in medical imaging, it still doesn't make them women.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you really think you could live like that, just eternally being a doormat and never sticking up for yourself? Like I have limits on what I will and won't do I respect women's personal boundaries and I won't join spaces that clearly aren't meant for me. I'm just done flagellating myself and doing the whole "oh please be nice to me I'm so sorry for being a gender dysphoric male" deal. I used to be so anxious and hesitant about going to the bathroom I probably got a UTI (I say probably because I never went to the doctor about it because it's so embarrassing but idk what else it could have been). It's not sustainable to live that way, hating myself for existing and worrying about whether I'm taking up space. I still worry whenever I go into a bathroom.

So you found a bunch of tras and act like it means anything that people who already drank the kool aid invited you to invade female spaces? Lmao

Noo I mean I have TRA friends but they're mostly online and we don't even agree on everything. Most irl ppl who know don't really know much about trans people but p much everyone thought I was being silly for beating myself up over nothing.

But if someone does notice you should remove yourself imo

Okay yeah that's fine with me and I would

TW are not

That's literally your belief though

You are literally biologically factually entirely truly absolutely a man lol

🙄 You sound like my brain when I brush my teeth in the morning

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. Lmao to almost all of this comment. It’s all been addressed multiple times by multiple people on this post so I’m moving on

-2. So once again you can prove nothing. Shocker.

-3. I’ll call you a boy then, although if you’re over 18 you’re an adult regardless of whether you finished puberty just as you’re a man regardless of how you look or feel

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then why do studies state histologically identical? Different cells could present the same tissue.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Im so sure everyone believes you’re female 🙄 even if they do- you aren’t. So I don’t know why you keep saying this lol

I can’t know for sure and neither can you but if I’m the same person just with dysphoria I’d know I was a man (assuming you mean I’m a TW) and I’d tell people I have a condition treated through transition and I’d prefer if I were referred to as she her because proper pronouns trigger me, if they aren’t comfortable with that I’d ask for neutral pronouns. I would not make my disorder other peoples responsibility not would I invade female spaces. I’d do all of the things I suggested to you. Because I Respect women.

So you found a bunch of tras and act like it means anything that people who already drank the kool aid invited you to invade female spaces? Lmao

Like I said, if you pass you pass and no one knows. Doesn’t make it okay just means nobody knows. But if someone does notice you should remove yourself imo

It was absurd and homophobic because lesbians are women. TW are not. It’s not the same. It’s not transphobic to know you’re not a woman and not want to make you an exception to sex based anything just because that’s what you want.

I already explained why female bathrooms are obviously meant for females. So no, we don’t have a say.

You are literally biologically factually entirely truly absolutely a man lol

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not taking anything from you I'm just trying to fix myself. To me it's comforting to know that even if I ultimately fail at least I never gave up and that I died never being at peace with what nature wants me to be.

Gay men are still men and gay women are still women so this is irrelevant.

Trans women are still women so ofc it's relevant.

Show me a neutral, reputable source that claims man and woman are genders

Already making it impossible for me, y'all love the dictionary but I know that citing it, or anyone in social sciences who knows that gender exists won't appease you.

Anyway that's not my point. It's still against the rules and is literally in the sidebar. Please just don't refer to me as anything.

Still though, if you say man is an adult human male then that's not me, because I am not an adult male, I never finished male puberty so I am not an "adult".

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know what hitologically means, thank you. I was questioning your claim of not being histological differences because tissues are made up of cells. If there are differences at the cellular levels, those differences will manifest in the structure and function of tissues. And sex is not defined by secondary sex characteristics.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right in GCdebatesQT

[–]derrpleAdult human gremlin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Saying that you can become or live like a woman is false because you have to be a female to do those things

People believe that I am female. They don't know differently.

That’s ridiculous and selfish as fuck but I respect that you admitted this

If our situations were swapped I doubt you'd hold biology as sacrosanct either. My point is like we all define ourselves in ways that make sense to us. For me the only way I can is by denying my biology.

how do they know you’re trans if you aren’t honest? Like do they even know you’re a te in their space

I have friends I've met online that later became irl friends and those people know. I keep that friend group separate from people I met irl. They're the ones who I was talking about there sorry to be unclear.

Other women in that space may

May. Like why should I stress or, according to you, literally pee in my car (which I don't have because I commute via public transport to the office on days I can't be remote), when in order for anyone to actually be upset they have to 1. See me in the first place which I try to avoid 2. Figure out that I'm trans and 3. Are uncomfortable with me being trans in the same room as them.

If there is no consensus, TW should stay out

Yet you would never say this to lesbian women. And people literally did, there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms, and it was absurd and homophobic. On what basis should the default be to assume that everyone is transphobic?

we have no say in our spaces

Ofc you have say in your spaces? Bathrooms are a public space with no clear individual or group ownership.

You could use the mens room. You choose not to.

Bc I'm not a man and I won't humiliate myself at work