Both: How do you feel about Ovarit shutting down? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

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QT: Would you accept a ban on all cosmetic genital surgeries for minors if it were the only way to stop the thousands of these procedures performed daily on nonconsenting newborn boys? by citydweller1 in GCdebatesQT

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Both: Which side has the pandemic helped more? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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All: What do you make of the Christiane Volling case? by nausicaa in GCdebatesQT

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All: Do you know trans people in real life? by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS in GCdebatesQT

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All: Is physically transitioning ethical? by Penultimate_Penance in GCdebatesQT

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The ethics of physically transitioning, particularly for minors, is a complex issue that touches on medicine, psychology, ethics, and individual rights. It's important to acknowledge that this is a deeply personal and contentious topic, with valid concerns on all sides.

  1. Informed Consent and Autonomy: One of the core ethical principles in medicine is respecting patient autonomy. This means allowing individuals, or their guardians in the case of minors, to make informed geometry dash decisions about their health care. For minors, this involves thorough discussions with healthcare providers, ensuring that the risks, benefits, and alternatives to treatments like puberty blockers or hormone therapy are clearly understood.

  2. Risks vs. Benefits: The concerns you've raised about the potential risks of medical interventions are important and warrant careful consideration. However, weighing these risks against the potential benefits is also crucial. For some individuals, the relief from severe gender dysphoria that these treatments provide can significantly improve their quality of life. The decision to pursue medical transition is often made after extensive psychological evaluation and is tailored to the individual's needs.

  3. Ethics of Withholding Treatment: On the flip side, withholding treatment from individuals who persistently experience gender dysphoria can also have ethical implications. Untreated gender dysphoria is associated with higher rates of depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. For some, medical transition can be a life-saving intervention. The ethical challenge lies in balancing the potential risks of treatment with the genuine risks of not providing care.

  4. Psychological Interventions: While psychological support is a critical component of care for individuals with gender dysphoria, it's not always sufficient on its own. For some, the psychological distress is tied to a deep-seated need for physical change. Ethical care involves offering a range of options, from counseling and psychotherapy to medical interventions, depending on the individual's needs and wishes.

  5. Long-Term Health Considerations: The long-term health consequences of medical transition are indeed important to consider. It's why ongoing research and monitoring are necessary, and why decisions about transitioning should be made with careful consideration of both the short-term relief and long-term health impacts.

  6. Social and Ethical Responsibilities: The idea that transitioning might lead to becoming a "burden" on society is a sensitive and complex one. It raises questions about how we define "burden" and whose responsibility it is to make decisions about another person's life and well-being. Many people who transition go on to live fulfilling lives, contributing to society in meaningful ways.

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All: What do you make of the Christiane Volling case? by nausicaa in GCdebatesQT

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Everything Else by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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Both: Do you believe there are sexual components to masculinity and femininity? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

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QT: How do you reconcile the idea that "gender affirming medical treatment is easier for cis people than for trans people to access", with the idea that there is a medical "gatekeeping" problem wherein people are asked to prove their transness to access treatment? by citydweller1 in GCdebatesQT

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QT: How do you reconcile the idea that "gender affirming medical treatment is easier for cis people than for trans people to access", with the idea that there is a medical "gatekeeping" problem wherein people are asked to prove their transness to access treatment? by citydweller1 in GCdebatesQT

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QT: How do you reconcile the idea that "gender affirming medical treatment is easier for cis people than for trans people to access", with the idea that there is a medical "gatekeeping" problem wherein people are asked to prove their transness to access treatment? by citydweller1 in GCdebatesQT

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Is this thing on? by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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Should GC feminists stop associating with conservatives on topics in which they’re interests are aligned? by HeimdeklediROAR in GCdebatesQT

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What if we made demands from men instead of women? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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What happened to Derple's thread accusing Helen Joyce of advocating "trans elimination"? by MarkTwainiac in GCdebatesQT

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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QT: How do you reconcile the idea that "gender affirming medical treatment is easier for cis people than for trans people to access", with the idea that there is a medical "gatekeeping" problem wherein people are asked to prove their transness to access treatment? by citydweller1 in GCdebatesQT

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are so many contradictions. :( “Cis” was a mistake. I understand wanting to be real, but adding a prefix to the actual thing doesn’t actually help at all and it’s wrong to force that on people.

QT: How do you reconcile the idea that "gender affirming medical treatment is easier for cis people than for trans people to access", with the idea that there is a medical "gatekeeping" problem wherein people are asked to prove their transness to access treatment? by citydweller1 in GCdebatesQT

[–]EliLeFey 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you are using the RIDICULOUS prefix cis- to mean someone whose 'identity' is their actual biological sex, why on earth would they be seeking 'gender affirming Tx' when they are already affirming their gender and their sex already?

QT: How do you reconcile the idea that "gender affirming medical treatment is easier for cis people than for trans people to access", with the idea that there is a medical "gatekeeping" problem wherein people are asked to prove their transness to access treatment? by citydweller1 in GCdebatesQT

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QT: How do you reconcile the idea that "gender affirming medical treatment is easier for cis people than for trans people to access", with the idea that there is a medical "gatekeeping" problem wherein people are asked to prove their transness to access treatment? by citydweller1 in GCdebatesQT

[–]EliLeFey 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't cisgender me. I am a woman, XX, adult human female. I use grammatically correct pronouns, and speech must not be compelled.

Both: Do you believe there are sexual components to masculinity and femininity? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

[–]GeorgePowers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

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GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The word 'transgender' could go back to meaning what it used to mean: fem gay guy, or butch lesbian. Or it could become the preferred term for transsexuals (specifically HSTS: homosexual transsexuals, like yourself).

At the moment the word transgender (as well as 'gender', 'gender identity' & 'cisgender') just means: self-ID. At least in discourse with self-ID lobbyists. Among the general public, gender just refers to one of the male & female sexes.

The tide is turning on self-ID, whether it's determined by self-declaration, or a diagnosis of gender identity disorder. Both these fronts are under attack. A welcome sight for GC feminists, as self-ID has been the crux of the disagreement between GC feminists & self-ID "leftists".

Does self-ID actually benefit anyone? It helped separate cross-gender conformity from its homosexual root cause, thereby making it possible for straight, white men & straight, white girls to identify as gay via self-ID (but using the label "trans"). Straight, white people have also been identifying as queer & bi. At the turn of the century, what LGBTQ people had in common was same-sex attraction, which means: someone who can fall in love with a person of the same sex. So apart from straight white people who want to identify as oppressed, who does self-ID actually benefit? Do these benefits outweigh the drawbacks to women & gay people & now a growing number of detrans people?

Most questions can't be properly answered without looking at the big picture. The big picture includes the whole planet & it's history. As we are all aware, there have been plenty of cultures in the past that we might describe as "trans-inclusive". In previous posts of mine I have covered two details about these cultures which are consistently contradictory of the self-ID cult's claims: 1. these "trans" populations are always exclusively same sex attracted i.e. gay & 2. they are never called "women", nor even a word related to the word 'woman', however, often they are called a word related to their word for 'gay'.

I put "trans" in quotes bc according to our culture trans = self-ID as the opposite sex, meaning that a trans male is a type of woman, while these populations are a type of gay male. These two types of identities have been conflated, so that the very recent idea of self-ID can claim to have been around for centuries. When even in our culture, transsexuals were always considered a type of homosexual: see Chandler's dad from Friends. He was both a gay man & a male transsexual & did not identify as a woman, while being portrayed by a woman. Friends ended in 2004. That's how recent self-ID's capture of the T in LGBTQ is.

Even in our own, Western culture, a transsexual was the original homosexual. Back when homosexuals (or inverts) were first defined, the only exclusively same-sex attracted persons this definition applied to were the ones who dressed, behaved & "lived as" the opposite sex. Ironically, this same population would be described as straight trans people by the topsy-turvy self-ID cult today.

To sum up the question posed in the heading: it's important for HSTS & LGBTQ people in general to cut their losses. Make sure to separate "trans" from "self-ID" & expunge the straight, white people from the LGBTQ community/movement. Problem is, straight white people outnumber gay people in the movement & run it now.

Quick word on spaces: bathrooms are talked about most, I guess bc unisex toilets already exist, so it's the easiest argument for the self-ID cult to win. The real issue comes with sports, prisons & shelters. Those should remain single-sex, without exception. The LGBTQ movement has set up its own shelters.

Now, looking only at HSTS exclusively:

Desistance: every study on desistance shows that the majority of boys between 12 & 20 diagnosed with gender identity disorder are gay & desist. Here is one such study form 2021: A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder Puberty, realising that they are gay etc. helps them grow out of it. There is a remainder however who fail to grow out of their GID. Surely we should be trying to discover the reason why some gay men don't grow out of their GID & help them to desist – such a suggestion has been mislabelled as "conversion therapy" by the self-ID cult, despite it being literally the opposite (just like the "misgendering" accusation).

Medical Transition: is it necessary, beneficial in some cases? Firstly, it's not actually possible to change sex, only somewhat feminise a male body. The fact that this isn't made very clear is part of the problem. Secondly, as BiR pointed out, it never used to exist, plus, studies have found that the GNC gay populations outside the West (referenced earlier) do not experience "gender dysphoria", so the condition is certainly not inborn. But our culture no longer seems to tolerate pederasty. So what should happen to feminine gay men, whose puberty's androgenisation failed to deliver them a masculine body/face? Going that extra bit more feminine will probably always seem more true to themselves than trying to masculinise themselves in order to try to attract the average gay man. For this reason I can see why people like Blake White undergo feminising cosmetic procedures & how it was possibly for the better. But then I remember that Matthew Waterhouse (a neotenous, for lack of a better word, gay guy who never "transitioned") also exists.

For any HSTS who wants to be a woman, "socially": If you pass, you won't need preferred pronouns, they will come out naturally. Most ways in which people treat men & women differently are subconscious. Men who don't pass will, at best, only ever be treated like men who want to be treated like women, therefore they will still "socially" be male. By "socially", I mean when talking to strangers, since according to social determinism, the male gender identity is as irreversible as being biologically male (bc you can't undo/redo primary socialisation). Free will will always be trumped by nature/nurture.

Everything Else! 6/15/22 by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]grassfed 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

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From Marilyn Frye's excellent essay, Some Reflections on Separatism and Power by Juniperius in GCdebatesQT

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QT: How do you reconcile the idea that "gender affirming medical treatment is easier for cis people than for trans people to access", with the idea that there is a medical "gatekeeping" problem wherein people are asked to prove their transness to access treatment? by citydweller1 in GCdebatesQT

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

OP, I'm not from the QT side, so I guess there's a good chance you'll ignore a post from someone "GC" like me, but still I have to ask: exactly which "gender affirming medical treatments" do you think are easier to access for people you'd label "cis" than for people you'd call trans?

I think it's important to point out that just because certain medical treatments are performed and obtained for "gender affirming" reasons in people who identify as trans doesn't mean that everyone who seeks or gets those same treatments is doing so for reasons of "gender affirmation" - or for reasons that have anything to do with gender, gender presentation, or identity at all, for that matter. Similarly, just because most people either don't have a gender identity, or identify as as "cis," doesn't mean we have easy access to all the kinds of drugs and medical procedures that people who identify as trans view as "gender affirming medical treatment" for themselves and others who identify as trans.

For example, a great many people take exogenous testosterone to get a leg up in sports - not to affirm their gender identities or accentuate their sense of masculinity. In most countries, getting exogenous testoterone legally prescribed by a HCP is much more difficult for people who don't have a gender identity, or who identify as "cis," than it is for female people who identify as trans, nonbinary, masc, trans-masc, etc and seek testosterone to affirm their gender-identities and change their outward gender presentation.

Similarly, the vast majority of surgeries done to remove breast tissue, ovaries, Fallopian tubes and the uterus are done for medical reasons having to do with the patients' physical health, not to affirm their self-images, social identities and inner sense of femininitity or masculinity. In the absence of serious physical medical conditions that have an objective reality that can be observed and diagnosed - like breast cancer, gynecological cancer and disease, uterine fibroids, uterine hermorrhage, ovarian cysts, endometriosis, pelvic inflammatory disease, uterine prolapese, and debilitating chronic pain and dysfunction - these surgeries are actually much harder to get, and far harder to get insurance coverage and payment for, if a person is a "bog standard" patient than a trans-identifed one.

In fact, even when a female person seeks a breast reduction or hysterectomy for sound medical reasons that have been extremely well-documented over many years, in most health care systems the surgery she seeks will be routinely denied to her - or insurance coverage will be denied her. If she does eventually get the surgery she seeks, and insurance pays for it, it will only be after she's spent years begging and pleading, getting tests and jumping through hoops.

For a number of years now, it's been much easier for male adults and adolescents who identify as trans to get prescriptions for estrogen - especially high-dose estrogen - for reasons of "gender affirmation" than it is for female adults to get estrogen prescribed to relieve the physical symptoms of menopause.

Moreover, male people who take exogenous estrogen to affirm their opposite-sex gender identities are routinely prescribed this hormone as long as they want - even well into old age. By contrast, female people fortunate enough to snag a prescription for exogneous estrogen to relieve symptoms of menopause are usually prescribed estrogen in low doses and for the shortest time possible - a couple of years at most.

There are tons of women in their 50s, 60s, 70s and and beyond who would love to be able to get prescriptions for estrogen to prevent common health problems like the recurrent UTIs, painful vaginal atrophy, bone density problems and massive hair loss that typically come with being a female person past menopause. But estrogen prescriptions are routinely denied to older women long past the age of menopause. By contrast, older male people who identify as trans like Caitlyn Jenner, Rachel Levine, Jennifer Pritzker and Renee Richards in the USA, and their UK counterparts like India Willoughby, Jane Faye, Kellie Maloney and now-deceased Jan Morris, are routinely given prescriptions for high-dose estrogen throughout their senior years - until they die, in fact.

Lack of access to medical treatment they seek and feel would be of benefit to them is not a problem unique to trans-identified people like you seem to think. Indeed, in many countries and medical systems today, people who identify as trans have much easier access to the kinds of drugs and surgeries that are considered "gender affirming treatment" for/by the trans community than the rest of the population does. Today, trans-identified people are also far more likely to have the costs of such treatments paid for by private insurance, government insurance like the USA's Medicaid, and by government health systems such as the UK's NHS, too.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My comment directly addressed their statements, explained why they're misogynistic, and why they further widespread patriarchal ideas. If the only thing making these rationalisations bannable is "but it made them feel bad", then we're back to the usual "men get to say whatever they want, and women should nod out of kindness" that's present in literally every other community. A radical feminist space will and should rip apart misogynistic ideas, and the fact that trans people are completely unable to adapt their ideology to a non-misogynistic framework speaks volumes. Like, sure, getting criticised for misogynistic ideas isn't the end of the world, but it is when your only response to long rationalisations of how what you said is nonsensical and actively hurts women is "women be hysterical".

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

surely it can't be the GC crew misinterpreting every single thing they say

If a person makes misogynistic statements and claims rooted in patriarchal ideas, then it's up to them to distance themself from them once someone rationalises how misogynistic they are. Trans people consistently fail to do that, and instead double down on just calling women hysterical Karens. I already explained in detail why complaining about women having rights in response to feminist feedback is misogynistic, but you did it again anyways, and also got me banned for...what, exactly?

regardless of whether or not it's relevant to the conversation in any way besides "trans person"

Um, I literally quoted the exact words and directly responded to them. They or you are free to address criticism of your personal statements, but you don't get to pretend that my extensive reply was just a bunch of random letters and slurs, because that is objectively false.

if you can't put in a modicum of effort here to interact and have a conversation with them

Like writing whole textwalls directly addressing their claims and why they're problematic and misogynistic? And getting no reply other than "women are hysterical"? That's effort?

and instead just see this as a sanctioned space to unload all your anger directly at them

And yet making patriarchal claims that are supposed to be taken at face value is never any sort of "anger" or "frustration". I know it isn't, because these misogynistic statements are comforting to trans activists and misogynists, for the reasons I had (surprise, surprise) already outlined. Maybe actually read women's concerns instead of reaching for the good old "hysterical" defense the second men and misogynists are inconvenienced.

If someone can't handle the fact that this is a radfem space where misogynistic ideologies get ripped apart (yes, even if they're packaged in a "nice" language) and takes feminist rejection of patriarchal values as a personal attack, then they absolutely shouldn't be posting. Disallowing radfem responses because they make misogynists feel bad is only going to get you a millionth misogynistic libfem space where people just spam "transwomen are women" and "women have pink brains" with 0 self-awareness, or a millionth conservative male cesspit where the height of their concerns is how confused their dicks get from GNC people and the only conversation is throwing "transphobe" and "tr**ny" back and forth.

Is this thing on? by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

you did it!

Is this thing on? by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you!!!!!

Is this thing on? by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Try this - I'll also look you up - https://discord.gg/MM8ZsM3w

I can't find "lovesloane#8597" But my user name is ddiving if you want to find and add me

Is this thing on? by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is this thing on? by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It says lovesloane#8597

Idk how to use discord lol

Is this thing on? by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have the same name but I had to use a whole new email and make a new account so I don’t see the invite

Is this thing on? by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I just invited you from within discord! Do you still have the same ID?

Is this thing on? by loveSloaneDebate King in GCdebatesQT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey! Can you send me a new discord invite if the Gcdebates is still a thing? I got a new phone and somehow lost all of my passwords and the email account I made because I was overzealous about being doxed lol

Should GC feminists stop associating with conservatives on topics in which they’re interests are aligned? by HeimdeklediROAR in GCdebatesQT

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course I believe in memory and olfactory senses. Subjective associations and systems don’t have any effect on objective reality like one’s body. Personal systems of associations can still be wrong and based on sexism.

Should GC feminists stop associating with conservatives on topics in which they’re interests are aligned? by HeimdeklediROAR in GCdebatesQT

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You don’t believe in psychological associations like smells to memory or stuff like that?

Should GC feminists stop associating with conservatives on topics in which they’re interests are aligned? by HeimdeklediROAR in GCdebatesQT

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You don’t worry about unintentional consequences of giving conservatives messaging that only sounds feminist but will actually lead to the enforcement of legal gender codes

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Discussion in a conversation framed like that is just as futile as women conversing in a forum of men who have a grudge against all women in general -- of course every women has committed a sin again maledom in that distorted view of reality. If a women disagrees with any of their points then her humanity is cast away from her and she is nothing other than the caricatures that exist their futile machinations.

Interesting example...

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hearing opposing views, most of which doesn't contain any kind of insult, is not self-harm.

I don't need to imagine how a QT poster could feel by coming here. I've been in the minority position in a hostile environment in another forum for a very different issue and I still stuck around. I could argue that is a form of "self-harm" for me to keep coming here to argue with random people who don't listen, too. And as I said, just asking questions about transgenderism is enough to attract a rage storm to you in a good bunch of the internet. Don't you think many GC posters knows exactly how is to be in the minority position? Anyway, although moderation is important, when discussing any controversial subject that has been debated to death, some anger is going to be expected. So, I don't know what QT potential posters, expect besides being treated as royalty like everywhere else. Maybe I should be more sympathetic, but I cannot. They keep acting as if they were the most oppressed people in the world when they get everything served in a silver plate. And it's not like my sympathy would be reciprocated.

Furthermore, you're assuming I never looked for some potential mod before you. I did it in private, but I got rejected. And it's not as I had some options to choose from. About the "unmoderated" posts, I saw them. We're surely going to disagree; however, if I ignored them, it means I though they didn't merit action or I left them to other mods to decide (yeah, useless hope, I know). That being said, if I treated GC users with "kid gloves", so I did with QT. I did not banned circling, for instance...

Anyway, I didn't burn out for workload since there wasn't much activity here most days. I did because, although I tried to honor my value for fairness, I resented every single time I had to mod in QT favour. I just didn't sign up for that. I became a mod because there was not an active GC mod and I wanted thing were more balanced. I didn't expected that I'd be doing QT mod's job because they couldn't bother to show up. Plus by arguing with QT and trying to stay civil after reading so many infuriating and absurd takes, not to mention all the lies. It was because I absolutely disagree with the rules that make impossible for me to speak honestly; a rule that is not going away ever because QT get more offended by the truth than whatever hideous and dehumanizing insult that anyone could think of. Plus I keep getting increasingly frustrated by real life development of transgenderism (that in spite whatever trans identified people says it has a big impact on so many people because everyone must accommodate their every wish regardless of the consequences) alongside other issues, which I won't mention nor detail so not to get too political.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]rainynights[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will eventually get to reading through and replying to all of the messages in this post that I haven't gotten to but I do not have the time nor will to do it all at once en total.

Unfortunately I did not read the reply in time. I'm fine with people being angry or wishing ill on me as it only shows the nature of their own character. I am no stranger to individual trans people being equated to rapists, etc despite the accused having no connection or knowledge of any of the events in question. In fact, I believe that was much more common in the past than it is now. You get used to it. Eventually one learns the truth that some people's lives will always be defined by an unhealthy negative fixation on trans people and that energy needs to be released somehow since everyone is human. That was the case in the 1980s and still rings true today. That is OK and after experiencing that energy from enough people over time you realize that they are only affecting their own selves with that energy since it will ultimately change nothing about how trans people live their lives. However, if the overarching nature of this forum is just people airing out their frustrations, you are right in that I do not have the time to stick around for that. Discussion in a conversation framed like that is just as futile as women conversing in a forum of men who have a grudge against all women in general -- of course every women has committed a sin again maledom in that distorted view of reality. If a women disagrees with any of their points then her humanity is cast away from her and she is nothing other than the caricatures that exist their futile machinations.

Everyone is human with different starting points. It is human nature for people to say that if someone doesn't agree with all of their view of reality (or wishes for how you live your life despite having no stake in it; everyone has something to say for free about how people should live their lives better despite not experiencing their reality :-)) and has some level of self respect, then they must not be a good person or lacks empathy for a large swath of people. That is a tale as old as time that will happen in debates much more important than about some measly trans people.

I don't think society will ever fully get past this issue and trans people eventually just realize they need to let go and live life. Those that are trans-fixed with this issue will always want to get TS women to throw nuance to the wind and admit that they are a man or to have them utter the mantra of "natal male" as a greeting to everyone they meet and that will not change. Trans people will continue on and shoulder being fake tricksters with a proclivity to rape who crawl out of the chasms of hell just fine. I will always want the best for those of us that are "demons, imps, and mutants" as eloquently described by a Florida lawmaker recently. In my life I have met some wise older trans women who survived times much worse than what we enjoy today. A common piece of advice is to never let other people tell you how to live your life and that society will always see trans women as less-than when compared to non-trans people. I still believe that today. You cannot convince someone to believe that you are a real person who has dignity and is not an emulation if they will always want to believe that they know everything about you better than you do yourself and everything is figured out (perhaps transsexuals are merely experiencing hysteria, hmm). If only life could be so simple.

Despite all of this, debate and sharing perspectives is always fun.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hi BiologyIsReal! I’m very grateful for the work you did as a mod and I’ve always expressed that! I don’t just feel like it’s helpful for me to insert myself into this disagreement between you two that has gone on for like a year. It would just cause more drama. Sorry if that offends you… <3

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]beris😎 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I guess I'll start at the end and work back - I hope I am as biased as you, because I don't think you were biased in the first place. That was never the issue, the issue was you just never took the kid gloves off, and seeing as a single post from a qt poster is gonna elicit 5 to 10 times the responses from gc posters, statistically they'd just be overwhelmed by under or unmoderated posts directed at them.

I understand you were put in a position where you had to moderate everything because no one else did. But at the end of the day when you made me mod I got access to the backlog of reported, untouched posts and holy shit it's a lot. If you were overwhelmed before then Idk why you didnt consider asking for help sooner. And if you weren't overwhelmed then there isn't really an excuse, is there?

And to add to the 'undermoderation' claim, at worst (outside of the spammer obviously and a few obvious, no brainer bans) you never punished the bad behaviour in any meaningful way. Put yourself in the shoes of a new qt poster who has just shown up and are trying to post but are getting passive-aggresively blamed for every sin every trans person has ever committed. Heaven forbid they get insulted, and then when you force the gc poster who did it to edit their comment they just edit in a dogwhistle instead (editted out my mean comment I still 100% stand by etc) and life goes on. Of course there isn't going to be a base of qt posters sticking around like that, it's just self harm at that point.

So yeah, Idk bio, you got the shit end of the stick, but you absolutely could have done things differently. End of the day, what's done is done, if trans posters show up now they'll at least have a better chance of sticking around than before, for whatever that is worth. I don't want to argue about your moderation any more than that, because i do legitimately feel bad that you took the brunt of it while the sub was the most active, but you really have to admit at some point that active rulebreaking was reported and ignored and that clearly drove away the small qt base that was here.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, thanks so much for not challenging the claim I did so little modding. So glad, I quit being a mod.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I saw who the banned user was and I can imagine what she could have said (I don't want to make assumptions since I didn't see her comment). I still stand for what I said, anyway, especially because she only comments once in a blue moon. And, really, yo do realize that GC posters receive way more push-back on most of the internet than what QT posters receive here. As I said, in many cases on the internet, or even irl, GC hear far far worse, particularly if they are women (QT has no problem recognizing them without pulling any pants down, funny that). For some women saying GC ideas has come with real life consequences, e.g. getting fired or actual violence (rather than just the typical threats). Yet GC keep discussing against all the odds. However, you say QT posters cannot handle some push-back in a small anonymous forum where we still have not to contradict how they perceive themselves? Sorry, but I am not impressed.

So, because I made you a mod it means I can never disagree with you?

Look, this fairy tale that I was such a biased mod that never bother to moderate is getting old. And it's not true. I was the most active mod by a long shot. Grixit disappeared as soon as he made me a mod (I should have never believed him and accepted his offer), quetzal showed up exactly and peaking was mostly absent and peaking absences had the worst timing, too. There never was so many QT posters here. Most threads were made by the spammer playing devil's advocate (you know the one) and who I must have banned dozens of times; but it seems that Spammer has gotten bored. And I was so "biased" that when a user complained about me to the mod mail, quetzal was forced to admit that I've been fair. I was so biased that I had Flippy calling me a rapist apologist (or something like that) because I warned him off in the very same thread where circling was asking for me to be removed from the "mod team" (i.e. just me). I was so biased I even offered you being a mod. Honestly, I wish I was as harsh as every single QT poster claims I was. It would had been easier for me.

Anyway, of course, what else an ex-biased mod like me could say? After all, the biased mod is going to defend herself against all the evidence. But I have to ask you, beris, if you think I was such a biased mod, why are you following my steps. You keep being very open about how you think GC posters are so mean and of course QT ran away from such hostile environment. Given that there is no GC mod anymore (no, peaking doesn't count), don't you worry that GC posters just leave? Well, I guess that is a way to attract QT posters. Although it may not work since GC posters are usually more resilient than that. And whatever the result, it doesn't change the fact you are, at least, as biased as me, beris.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[M] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Hi Beris, sorry I’m not more active and I appreciate your efforts. You’ve done more moderation of GC posters (and in general for awhile) than anyone has. <3

I feel like GC here is so jaded, they often come out really strong and scare people away. The moderated poster in particular should just post this stuff on Ovarit and not here I feel like. I guess there might be something satisfying to say it to trans person, but it doesn’t help us keep people around.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]beris😎 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Anyway, at 99% of the internet you have to walk on burning eggshells not to offend them, while they are free to say the most vile things. But I guess a little forum that is little bit less biased

You, specifically (since literally no other mods even visit besides peaking who might show up in two weeks again and see all this if we're lucky) moderated GC so little that at least one poster said they didnt even care about the rules and nothing happened. You don't think MAYBE at least in part that has something to do with a lack of trans posters? You gave me mod because I said I was unhappy with that, you can't be upset that I'm acting on it now. The banned poster is one of two who has been so vitriolic I can scroll their post history here and find rule breaks like 6 posts back, they dont get the benefit of gentle interpretation. There are countless radfem spaces on the internet she can use to vent her frustrations, but this should not be one of them.

Edit - to be clear I dont think you're wrong in that a lot of trans people have an active do not interact policy for themselves regarding radfems, but clearly not all do as sometimes trans posters do show up, but surely even you can admit that if theyre constantly met with longtime posters here who post in a way that actively conveys that they're unwelcome, they're going to leave.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

As if their comments don't exude anger too or as if they didn't misrepresent our arguments.

I don't know why you keep acting as if they don't come here because we are such lying and unredeemable jerks. This sub was created because the reddits administrators banned the old one for "transphobia". Most QT users celebrated the moved and they didn't want to come here. It's not a secret.

Anyway, at 99% of the internet you have to walk on burning eggshells not to offend them, while they are free to say the most vile things. But I guess a little forum that is little bit less biased in their favor is too much for them to handle.

Edit: I don't know what the removed comment said, I just thought this needed to be said.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]beris😎[M] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Wow, I wonder why no trans people want to post here, surely it can't be the GC crew misinterpreting every single thing they say to use them as a sounding board for their own anger and frustration about them, regardless of whether or not it's relevant to the conversation in any way besides "trans person". You have plenty of spaces to rant about how badly trans people affect you on a day to day basis, if you can't put in a modicum of effort here to interact and have a conversation with them and instead just see this as a sanctioned space to unload all your anger directly at them, it's no wonder there arent trans posters here anymore.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So, you keep talking about your lived experience, but what about your un-lived or whatever the antonym of lived experience may be? I mean, can there be personal experiences that are not lived? Does the phrase redundancy give the experiences more validity? Jokes aside, you're falling on a kind of exceptionalism. According to you, no one but trans identified people are qualified to talk about the "trans experiences"; nevertheless, you give yourself permission for matters that should be foreign to you, like the "lived experiences" of women. For how could you know you are a woman, otherwise? How could you know who, including yourself, is a woman when you are unable to define the word? You have no idea how it is to inhabitant a female body and all the biological and social experiences that arises from this fact.

Words have meanings that people have agreed upon in order to communicate with each other. Thus, I don't have a personal definition of "woman", rather I go by the one that is (still) in the dictionaries (the one that has been used by everyone before transactivists started lobbying to change it), which is based on the reality of sex. Because, here is the thing, reality doesn't change just because you give something a completely unrelated name. A donkey doesn't become an unicorn just because you say it's really an unicorn. I doesn't become one either even if you also fix a horn on its head.

Anyway, I didn't say you lack empathy for women because of our disagreements. I said it because you showed no concern for the very real impacts trasactivism is having on women. Instead, you worry that "modern transgender people" ruin it for you. What is more, you're worried for consequences that have yet to materialize for you. If it is true that you "pass" as a woman completely, I mean, you "pass" 100% and no one ever could tell you are actually "transsexual" by looking at you, then why do you mind if Republicans want to ban all males from the women's restrooms at all?

Something like requiring SRS surgery, 10 years on hormones, no transfers from male prisons, and no history of certain crimes makes sense to me as criteria for trans women in female prisons for instance.

None of these things would make them female, though. Furthermore, that was already tried. Old school transactivists in different countries lobbied to be legally recognized as the opposite sex and have access to sex-segregated spaces that weren't intended for them. It was a trap. Soon enough, that was not good anymore because not all trans identified people could afford "medical transition", for some it could not be accessed legally in their countries, some though it was cruel to be subjected to procedures that have all kinds of harsh side effects in order to be recognized as their "true selves", to say nothing of the "forced sterilization".

No. Self-ID doesn't happens overnight, but it's a gradual process that starts by ignoring biology. It never ends with just a few special cases.

I think that we need to be judged by our characters and not by having the original sin of being born male.

I agree with judging people by their characters. I don't think being born male is a sin. As there is, however, many males who do shitty things, women have plenty of reasons to be wary of them, especially because we cannot tell who are the bad ones. Any decent male would understand this and not make it personal.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You say I can't talk about trans identified people because I lack the "necessary" personal experience. If we follow this premise to its logical consequence, then history quickly becomes a off-ground subject. So why have you be talking about the experiences of historical groups of people with such an authoritative voice? Have you been there to back up your claims? How do you know people "transitioned" before there was a concept of "transgender"? How could they "transition" when there were no exogenous hormones or surgeries (other than castration) available?

I suggest you give a read at the links in my comment above. Transactivists often project modern ideas on ancient people and misrepresent other cultures. I guess it must be reassuring to think that there has always been trans identified people as we understand it now; but there is little, if any evidence, for such claims.

Also, you have no answered why we don't give liposuction to patients with anorexia nervosa nor why we don't amputate healthy arms for people who desperately want to get rid of them. What does make trans identified people so different that we must go against what would be regarded as common sense in any other mental health issue?

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am a small person at 5’4. There are bigger trans women for sure though.

You're still very likely stronger than the average woman. There are many males who are more vulnerable for a variety of reasons (e.g. very short height, old age, disability or minority status); however, women's spaces are not a refuge for any of them. Those spaces were built for women. Making special exemptions for some kinds of males defeats its purpose. Making cross-sex self-identification the special exemption is even worse because there is no objective way to determine who is a "true trans"; even you has admitted this much. In other words, allowing any trans identified male in women's spaces means, in practice, allowing all and every male there.

There are bigger trans women for sure though. I’m not going to go into a 3rd space to make a political point when I have been going into the right restroom already for decades without issue.

Without issue FOR YOU, you meant. But who cares what the plain women in those restrooms think about it, right? You're comfortable there and that is the only thing that matters.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Meant to say welcome also! Good to see more folks here especially those who are not purely GC. Glad to have you here!!!

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Can GC and TS exist with compromises and will GC speak up if Republican men in power make it illegal to be trans and try and make the past a reality again?

Do you actually think this is happening? I don’t think it’s possible to make being a transsexual illegal, but I don’t love the attention it is getting. Trans activists are the reason for this of course. If they weren’t pushing ridiculous things then no one would be as focused on it I feel like. I don’t agree with a lot of things republicans do, but I don’t even think it’s possible for them to ban transsexuals. The Missouri law is positive because it adds more reasonable gatekeeping that should have been there all along I feel like. I received many years of therapy from all different types of therapists before I started medical transition. That’s not a bad thing. Your banning concern just seems so hyperbolic though… I just don’t see how it can be banned. 🤷‍♀️

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I miss our debate sub on Reddit. It was very active, and we had a ton of trans posters, both transsexuals/transmedicalists and TRAs.

It is my strongly held opinion that if GC people were in the same circumstances as people of trans experience then they would likely transition as well.

What do you mean by the same circumstances? I don't think my experience is all that different from many trans people. I've struggled with dissatisfaction with my sex my whole life, too. It would sure as hell be a lot easier to pass as a man. I'd fit into society much better that way. But my only reason for doing so would be misogyny, internalized and otherwise. I think GNC women and girls in particular are being taught by the trans movement that we should disavow womanhood if we aren't jumping for joy about being female. But we are female regardless of whether we like it. We are female regardless of whether we relate to femininity or feminine stereotypes. And we are female even if we hate how people treat us because of it.

Because I am not a natal male I can't speak to your experience as a transsexual who came from the opposite direction. But I believe that the explosion of trans identification among younger females is related to a terrible defect within society, not a defect within the women and girls themselves.

I think that humanizing the condition of gender dysphoria as something that, given the right circumstances, a person would rationally choose to transition because of is important when discussing these issues.

I have no wish to dehumanize people with gender dysphoria, but there is a huge problem in the trans movement because the "powers that be" have decided that no one needs dysphoria to be trans. Instead, it's an opt-in category, and anyone can identify as such for any reason. This leads to not only bad actors, but also impressionable young people jumping on the bandwagon who have no way to relate to transsexuals such as yourself. It also leads to people, particularly young women with co-morbidities and other mental health issues, transitioning to escape their distress which may be caused by something else entirely and would be better served by actual therapy, not affirmation.

What may be rational and logical for a "classic" transsexual like yourself is very different from the circumstances of, say, a 14 year old girl who presented with no gender distress in childhood, who was the victim of rape or sexual abuse, who suffers from an eating disorder, who has an autism diagnosis, etc. You are two different populations.

It seems to be a common belief that women of TS experience can never socially integrate into society as women and are always going to be complete outsiders… possibly also being the bestubbled owner of a harshly squared chin.

Not always, but it is certainly much, much harder for natal males to pass as female. And this is another circumstance where self-ID is harming transsexuals who have made significant efforts to pass. You have the AGP crowd who make little to no effort, late transitioners who often do not bother with surgery and sometimes even hormones. Whereas the HSTS transsexuals typically went down a much different path fairly early in life. Even with all that, I do think that few transsexuals pass as female in person. Perhaps at a glance for bathroom purposes, but not in any kind of sustained way. If someone doesn't pass, I do think a legally mandated and protected third space would be a good solution.

I find this mindset very common among people who are both supporters and detractors of TS people. However it degrades one’s quality of life to take things away from trans people such as resources for being able to transition (which we are currently seeing elements of in various states today)

Frankly, at this point, I am only concerned about minors. Adults can do what they wish. I do have feelings about how the psychiatric industry is handling adults with gender dysphoria. There seems to be zero gatekeeping, but as long as someone has given fully informed consent, what they do with their bodies is up to them. I may think it's deeply unethical for doctors to hand out testosterone or perform surgeries without any attempt at therapy, but I don't consider it a criminal matter.

It doesn’t seem like people who are critical of trans people would really care if that happened just so long as they at least “weren’t murdered”.

Well, I don't feel that way. I'm not a Republican, but I don't think the vast majority of Republicans feel that way either. I think moderates and conservatives for the most part want trans people to be able to live in society and have legal protections in areas like housing, employment, and public accommodation. I believe most people want reasonable accommodations made and protected third spaces for prisons and shelters and so on. The fact that we are seeing backlash is due to the refusal of TRAs to compromise. And as far as medical care is concerned, no one would be saying anything about it for adults if TRAs had not chosen child medicalization as their hill to die on.

Of course, as you know, not all trans people are TRAs. Many TRAs are heterosexual and non-transgender. Joe Biden, for one. Many of the worst TRAs are not trans themselves. And there are trans people like Blaire White who stand up for child protection. So I don't paint all trans people with the same brush. I am happy to ally with trans people for a common cause like child protection or mandating gender-neutral third spaces.

I apologize in advance for my unfeminine humor making light of our disagreements. My hormone shot is overdue and I’m feeling particularly indignant today.

Ha, you're fine. I've talked with plenty of trans people, and it's nice to be able to have civil discourse even if we don't end up agreeing on everything.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]rainynights[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unfortunately I don’t have time to go into depth about my views of trans/gender variant people in history. I will try and reply tomorrow with some more of my thoughts.

It was either John Money or Robert Stoller who reapplied the term for how someone self-perceives in the form of "gender identity" in their questionable researchers. Then some English speaking feminists thought it was a good idea talking about "gender" instead of sex-based roles and stereotypes.

Trans people have existed before the term transsexual and the identity-aligning concepts it came with when it began to be used. People who attended drag balls and those who usually worked as exotic show girls a la Coccinelle, Bambi, and Amanda Lear when they were a part of the Le Carrousel act in the 1950 were usual suspects. Even before there was a well defined concept for transgender people transitioned and lived with this condition.

After my entire life of hearing how trans people were just mentally ill men in dresses from the media and society, hearing this view yet again is not going to change my mind. Many feminist women complain about men being reductive to the female experience and speaking about things that they will never understand. It seems like many GC women will say this yet then talk about knowing trans people better than they know themselves. I believe that this kind of behavior is not just applicable to men but also to people talking about trans issues. It’s very easy to reduce the TS condition down to something that can easily be lumped in with the jackhammer wielding burly construction worker if he donned a dress but to me that isn’t something that can be taken seriously.

It’s very easy to question whether or not trans people should be put on hormones as an outsider. To be honest, if I wasn’t trans I probably would be thinking along the same lines. However, I’ve known plenty of people who have been destroyed as teenagers as a result of alternative therapies I see a lot of proposals for. Electroshock therapy used to be more common in the 90s for trans people. Non-affirmative therapy (more akin to conversion therapy) was as well. As a teenager I saw these things destroy numerous people. It’s not something that I’m going to say should be used instead. We know how to take care of ourselves by self medicating and we will do so if needed. I never took puberty blockers since they didn’t exist when I started, I just did the classic route of taking enough hormones to get the job done. You might know more about them than me.

Regarding detransitioners, in many decades I only ever knew one destransitioner and they re-transitioned. I think that in the past those that knew they needed treatment sought it out and it wasn’t as popularized or in vogue. It’ll probably go back to being like that again eventually I would imagine.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]rainynights[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am a small person at 5’4. There are bigger trans women for sure though. I’m not going to go into a 3rd space to make a political point when I have been going into the right restroom already for decades without issue.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]rainynights[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I claim the label woman because that is what people see me as in real life and what makes the most sense for me. I think that calling me a man is very reductive to my actual lived experiences since that is not what people see me as. It's fine if you tie being a woman to female biology, it doesn't bother me. In my real life I'm not going to self flagellate over it because people don't see it the same way. This is the same reason why I am tight lipped about my unique situation to almost all people. I am living my life normally with my husband of almost 20 years. In day to day life I do not think about the trans issue as much as you might think and live my life blending into society as I have always wanted. I have enough self respect to not talk about this to people and make a political show that I don’t believe in. People would love for trans women to make fools of themselves and that is not something I am going to do. If I believed I was a man I would have done all the same surgeries and lived my life the same way because my condition is not that of a professional female impersonator. I am myself and I don’t need anyone’s validation or approval. You can define “woman” however you see fit and I will continue to live my life.

I will be honest with you, to me it sounds like you have taken a lot of your views from the internet. That is your prerogative but I do not have the time nor energy to be plugged into all of the negative energy. I have experienced a lifetime of that already.

For crime statistics: In decades past gays used to say the same thing about us to prevent us from coming into to gay bars. That we were “too much trouble” and violent… the reality was that trans women were always messed with to the point of a scene being caused. I am not the ruler of trans people or guys who would have been mere crossdressers in the past.

Yourself, here, are showing a clear lack of concern for women all the while you expect we respect your wishes. Maybe you're the nicest person in the world and can't kill a fly, but there is no way for women to know this, but even if they could, privacy is important, too. Who are you (or anyone like you) to decide what women find acceptable in such vulnerable setting? Moreover, I've to highlight you keep focusing only on bathrooms when I mentioned several other settings. And you don't even registered the option for third spaces.

I have always had to look out for myself in my life. I don’t think it’s correct to say that because I don’t agree with how you think I should be living my life, I am lacking concern or empathy for women of non-trans experience. I could say the same thing about you towards “people like myself”. For other issues that aren’t related to trans issues do you also think that people who don’t agree with you are lacking empathy? I know for a fact that there are people in this world who do not wish for you to live your life the way you do, whatever that may mean, and you do not concern yourself with their opinions. I do not think you speak for everyone and because you want third spaces doesn’t mean we all have to agree.

I don’t think that we will engage in this conversation long enough to enumerate every single point we believe in regarding this issue. Since you mentioned other settings for things like prisons I don’t think the current situation is ideal either. Something like requiring SRS surgery, 10 years on hormones, no transfers from male prisons, and no history of certain crimes makes sense to me as criteria for trans women in female prisons for instance. Because I have some semblance of wanting the right thing for those that experience gender dysphoria does not mean that I have a lack of concern for others.

I think that we need to be judged by our characters and not by having the original sin of being born male.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I understand, but this study is from Sweden and they have a bigger welfare State than the US, too. And those stats are just saying they commit more violent crimes than females, which is true for every male group. And they are also keep being stronger and bigger than women. We cannot put aside all that if we're discussing their access to former women's only space. And, I repeat, they won't even entertain the possibility of third spaces. The very fact that so many are willing to ignore women's boundaries, even after being explained again and again the problems with their actions, doesn't look good, to say the least.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]beris😎 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not going to get particularly involved in the conversation, but I would caution against taking crime statistics at face value. If trans people in general are significantly poorer than the general population, comparing their crime statistics to the general population rather than their own income group is a red flag for me as a non-white woman in a country where that sort of thing is done on the regular by racists with crime stats from my own race.

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Please tell me if I’m not correct but I sense that you see trans women as being the exact same as men with the same socialization.

I think I've made my views pretty clear given the constraints that I mentioned on other post. If you think you had different experiences from both men and women, then why do you claim the label "woman" for yourself? Why do you not choose any other label? How are you a "woman", anyway? We have take your word for it, but you don't offer neither proof nor justification. If biology doesn't matter, then what is a woman? What is a man? Can you really define either of without recurring to sexist stereotypes?

As for how society treat trans identified people... Well, trans identified males are very prominent in transactivism, many occupying leading roles. Their stories are always believed, they are always given the benefit of the doubt, their "identities" always respected. Even in cases they commit horrible crimes, correctly sexing them (aka "misgendering") is viewed as far worse than whatever crime they committed. They are given every thing they ask for, may it be hormones, cosmetic surgeries, access to former women's only spaces, and so on. Dissenters, especially dissenting women, are viewed as nazis. We are even supposed to pretend they will be able to get pregnant within a few years.

Meanwhile, we only hear about trans identified females when: a) they got pregnant; b) they take part in sports... in a female league...; or c) they commit a crime, except people don't care about "misgendering" here (see the recent case of the Nashville shooter, for example). Yet, they so "much" male privilege that trans identified males can talk over them. What does this tell you?

I’m not sure about what you mean by rape threats and how that relates to me. I have never threatened anyone with rape and am confused about how I am involved in that.

I meant that dissenting woman have to deal with rape threats quite often. You can find them on the internet quite easily. I didn't say that was something you personally did, but that is something that happens and said women are given a once of sympathy because they are "transphobes", you know? Here is issue, trans identified males' comfort are always privileged over women's discomfort and safety. Yes, women's safety, because there is no way to tell who is a "true trans" and the evidence suggest trans identified males retain male patterns of criminality (*).

Yourself, here, are showing a clear lack of concern for women all the while you expect we respect your wishes. Maybe you're the nicest person in the world and can't kill a fly, but there is no way for women to know this, but even if they could, privacy is important, too. Who are you (or anyone like you) to decide what women find acceptable in such vulnerable setting? Moreover, I've to highlight you keep focusing only on bathrooms when I mentioned several other settings. And you don't even registered the option for third spaces.

You ask for empathy, but you don't seem willing to offer any to women.

(*) Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime.

I think I've written enough for today. Further replies from my part may take a while...

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My point was that the technology for making exogenous hormones and performing cosmetic surgeries on secondary sex characteristics is pretty new. People at early 19th century or even more earlier couldn't risk everything for something that was not possible. I think you're projecting a lot of modern experiences and concepts in ancient people. What is even "gender-variant people" and what Sumerians could know about them when until mid 20th century gender was a grammar concept? It was either John Money or Robert Stoller who reapplied the term for how someone self-perceives in the form of "gender identity" in their questionable researchers. Then some English speaking feminists thought it was a good idea talking about "gender" instead of sex-based roles and stereotypes. Also, English speakers, especially American, gradually became more and more uncomfortable using the word "sex" when talking about biological sex and started using "gender" as an euphemism. And because English is the most studied and influential language in the world and, probably, also the most translated language, these newer uses of the word "gender" extended far beyond the borders of English speaking countries.

And speaking of language, I think it's telling that, while you can find a word for a woman or a man in every language, even ancient languages, there are no ancient equivalent for "transsexuals" or "transgender". At most, you may find some words for so called "third genders" in certain cultures (like the hijra in India), that are not equivalent with each other because said terms are culture-specific, which suggest "transsexual status" or lack thereof is not something universal and fundamental like being a woman or a man. Furthermore, I've see no evidence that cultures with so called "third genders" recognized and treated said people as the opposite sex.

The Myths about the Mythical Indian Hijra

The sex binary is not a ‘Western construct,’ gender identity is

You were the one who classified trans identified people in two groups, those who are legitimate as yourself and the ones who are just following a trend and were ruining it for the "legitimate" ones. I was just following your lead here. Funny, you mention Ray Blanchard because, despite being so maligned by transactivists of either group, he actually thinks AGP transidentified males are "true trans", who suffer from the most painful gender dysphoria and he neither thought about asking women what we think about it. So, who can tell who is a "true trans"? Even you admit there is not an objective test and is a matter of given off the right "energy"? That is not scientific at all and the inability to determine who has actually gender dysphoria is the first crack in the field.

Something you have not addressed is how gender dysphoria is treated very differently from any other mental health issue. People with anorexia nervosa go to great lengths in their self-destructive behavior; however, nobody thinks is wise to recommend them for a liposuction or assist them by any other means in their search for their "perfect" weight. Some people want their healthy arm or leg amputated, sometimes they ampute them themselves with all the risks that it implies. Yet, you won't find many people recommending amputation as an aceptable "treatment for said people. So, why should we act differently regarding gender dysphoria? Especially because there is no way for humans to change one's sex, neither naturally nor artificially. Sex is determined at conception and you cannot reverse all the changes that are triggered because of it. Everyone is either female or male, even people with DSDs (intersex is an outdated and misleading term), many of which are not misidentified at birth.

Finally, regarding the supposed standards for this field of medicine, doctors working on it are notorious for their bad designed experiments and the big rates of drop-out. Sometimes they cannot even keep basic data from their patients, as we've seen in the judicial review of the Tavistock clinic brought by Keira Bell in the UK. Even after decades prescribing hormones, there is still no proof they work as a treatment for gender dysphoria. GnRH agonists (aka "puberty blockers") are prescribed off-labeled for trans identified minors ignoring their serious potential and reported side effects. What is worse, they are described as "reversible" despite this claim defies all we know about pharmacology or human development. The only basis for this bold claim is their use for patients with central precocious puberty, which is a very different population, for which there are objective diagnostic criteria and its usage is very different, too. But the fact children with precocious puberty will resume puberty after stop taking GnRH agonists is not the same as these drugs not having side effects. Surgeries are even worse because experimentation is more rampant in that field.

Moreover, there is a total lack of curiosity for the changing demography of patients with gender dysphoria. Also, there is anecdotal evidence that detransitioners often don't go back to their doctors. This suggest there needs to be more research on this area. Unfortunately, academics and professionals questioning the official script are often prevented from doing their jobs.

A live experiment on children': Mail on Sunday publishes the shocking physicians' testimony that led a High Court judge to ban NHS's Tavistock clinic from giving puberty blocking drugs to youngsters as young as 10 who want to change sex

Antiandrogen or estradiol treatment or both during hormone therapy in transitioning transgender women - spoiler, the authors of this review couldn't find any study that could pass their inclusion criteria and point out the big gap between research and clinical practice.

New Systematic Reviews of Puberty Blockers and Cross-Sex Hormones Published by NICE

Top Trans Doctors Blow the Whistle on ‘Sloppy’ Care

One Year Since Finland Broke with WPATH "Standards of Care"

All Six of Sweden's Pediatric Clinics Meet to Discuss a Cautious Stance Toward Pediatric Gender Transitions

As a Former Dean of Harvard Medical School, I Question Brown’s Failure to Defend Lisa Littman - about the woman who coined the term Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.

We Need Balance When It Comes To Gender Dysphoric Kids. I Would Know | Opinion (by Scott Newgent)

Detransition-Related Needs and Support: A Cross-Sectional Online Survey

Proposal to research 'trans regret' rejected by university for fear of backlash, claims psychotherapist

AAP 'Silencing Debate' on Gender Dysphoria, Says Doctor Group

GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out by rainynights in GCdebatesQT

[–]rainynights[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I appreciate the welcome and reply. It’s too bad that more people don’t contribute more since it seems like the discussion isn’t that bad here. Unfortunately these days everyone is extremely siloed into their own communities and aren’t able to cross over to “the other side” in a reasonable nor cordial manner.

It is my strongly held opinion that if GC people were in the same circumstances as people of trans experience then they would likely transition as well. They would also want to live their life normally and with dignity and would have a very different perspective than what they have now. The same goes for any kind person including if a trans person were instead born and lived their life as described by the horrific three letter epithet beginning with the letter C and ever so terribly ending with S. I think that humanizing the condition of gender dysphoria as something that, given the right circumstances, a person would rationally choose to transition because of is important when discussing these issues.

We seem to agree on the bathroom issue. For a good amount of people in the GC cult (just kidding) it appears like a lot of the disagreements on that front are due to whether or not TS women are able to pass. It seems to be a common belief that women of TS experience can never socially integrate into society as women and are always going to be complete outsiders… possibly also being the bestubbled owner of a harshly squared chin. From my personal experience I think that this issue is more nuanced than that and there are many different realities for the trans experience depending on how well one blends into the background of society.

No one, not the most conservative Republican or the most radical of radical feminists, wants to see trans people physically hurt or killed. The only people who want that are violent men, the gay bashers who have been going after GNC males since long before the trans movement started.

I find this mindset very common among people who are both supporters and detractors of TS people. However it degrades one’s quality of life to take things away from trans people such as resources for being able to transition (which we are currently seeing elements of in various states today) or making it technically illegal to use the public restroom that makes sense for how you look. While it’s not something that is tantamount to genocide it doesn’t create an environment that is that suitable for trans people in their own eyes. To extend that point further, trans people could surely live in insane asylums but it’s not much of a life. It doesn’t seem like people who are critical of trans people would really care if that happened just so long as they at least “weren’t murdered”. Maybe I’m reaching there but the “not my problem as long as I get my way even though it doesn't affect me beyond the realm of the conceptual '' attitude seems to be pretty common in various online discourse. In fact, on other places that I have read GC comments, variants of “not my problem” seems to be a common catchphrase to bleat after expressing a wish to restrict care that from a trans individual's perspective is critically important.

I apologize in advance for my unfeminine humor making light of our disagreements. My hormone shot is overdue and I’m feeling particularly indignant today.