you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

No, but if the entire female sex is innately inferior, then there is no point to feminism.

I don’t see this as thinking the female sex is inferior. Aggression does not mean better.

It’s a tool that can be useful or destructive for other purposes.

There are some that believe in the flatter bell curve for men but really when I think about it. It could all come down to that aggression. Which can also be self destructive.

So your belief is just like Red Pill,

I can see the problem with that and I don’t know what the answer to that is. Red pill is an extreme form of it.

But I do see the repeated lighter forms of it in regular life. This is what often radical feminism is complaining about and I agree it is there in subtle forms. Patriarchal norms but it is not absolute. I don’t think it’s absolute.

What do you make of these credit academic reports.

Women's Sexual Fantasies – The Latest Scientific Research

Fantasy does not mean they wish these desires fulfilled.

But they pattern of desire for sex and power remains very strong.

Everything that is natural is not necessarily a moral good. I think that’s one of my starting points.

I think I was born with an inability to conform to gendered expectations. To me, “born with an inability to conform to gendered expectations” isn’t entirely accurate. That isn’t escaping gender. That is embracing the gender norms of the opposite sex.

As such, you could certainly raise little girls to embrace neutrality and most of them would.

I don’t see it as being technically possible. That isn’t how humans are. I think there are natural biological tendencies within humans plus a natural desire to create gendered things.

What's your social circle like?

Of course I’ve lived a life and at times been very social. Known and sought out many men and women of different flavours.

Specifically the straight crossdresser community is very thin. The community is very androphilic. It is often very based around sex with men and other gnc men. That’s super awkward as a straight man not attracted to other crossdressers. Online I got a lot of attention from men, even after saying I’m straight. There are a lot of assumptions. There can be an assumption that a straight crossdresser is a liar. Back to that pattern of gnc men being either gay or perverts.

I have been in circles entirely of women, falling into a kind of honorary member. But it’s not sexual. I mean that in a bad way. We were not seeing each other as sexual figures because I was not doing the masculinity they prefer and they were not being the aggressive female figures I prefer.

I have been male circles and I don’t quite fit the casual masculinity of them. Certainly not after they are aware of my crossdressing.

There is a common refrain of “don’t let your crossdressing/sexuality” become your whole identity and I can see the good reasons and logic for that. But then you suppress and end up being a person that “springs” it on others. You drift into the closet only to find yourself around people who are not accepting.

I realise now I ought to have placed it more central to my life. I accepted it when I was very young but that acceptance became internal and not external enough.

Where I do find it more acceptable is the kink community, the fetish clubs. That is where crossdressing is more than tolerated, a straight crossdresser has a place not as part of gay culture but as a person outside sexual norms. There are also women there who appreciate gender non conformity in men and relationships.

I had initially gone to these clubs when I was younger but drifted away as I got older because they were too small, cliquey, badly attended and amateur. I was also groped by men there. That pattern is strong.

However in the last few years I returned to find the clubs better organised, better policed, friendly and well attended. I wish that had been the case when I was younger. I find it a place of tolerance of people not criminal but outside regular norms of different sexual types.

There are certainly women there who are dressing for sex in a way that turns themselves on.

Well, I feel you. They keep lumping GNC women like me in with trans. Which is why so many of us are fleeing womanhood.

Well obviously I think a “failed woman” is the wrong way of looking at it. I’d see you as embracing masculinity. That does not mean you need to embrace a transman identity. But that does not mean you can disconnect masculinity from men.

No? I think the fetish in question is getting aroused by the idea of wearing female clothing.

But their gender expression is connected to their sexuality? There has to be some relationship.

The gay male scene has plenty of sexualized ultra masculinity that is linked to pleasure.

You do see women who see their femininity as part of their sexuality. It does put them in the mood.

I consider BDSM a harmful kink/fetish. If they can't get off without imagining that, then yes, they are fetishists.

But a lot of this is super common. The bdsm scene in my opinion is people theatrically expressing extremes forms of this.

Or of course mild gender non conforming forms.

Well I enjoy the female aesthetic. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. Would you put on a non-revealing dress and go out in public without feeling any hint of arousal about it?

Hint? It depends on what you mean.

I’m not demanding pronouns or a different name or anything like that. I just like female appreciation of my expression. It puts me in the mood and puts the right woman in the mood.

Really that’s what a lot of gender expression is about IMHO.

He can, as long as he doesn't give a shit about what others think. He just needs to own them and not allow other people to rule his life.

I don’t think you’re getting how harsh men are policed on gender.

Even small things will be judged by even liberal people. Tolerance does not mean people don’t act on it.

A man has to constantly police himself, especially a straight man.

If I let society determine those things for me, I'd have a very unhappy existence. I do agree gnc women do get a rough ride. But the line is very tight for straight men. You can see the line in regular pop culture.

Dude, you seriously don't. Dress how you want, act how you want.

This is my experience after hanging with men and women. This is what I see. I have experienced enough to know what they believe and what they react to.

A lot of that is just passion. Some of it I find problematic. But most of it is benign. You've never had a so-called "normal" woman grab you or initiate a kiss or something?

I have had women grab me at times. Pinch my bum, hand down my trousers.

But generally I think the gender norms hold in patterns.

Sexually passive women are far more common. That does not mean they are without desire. I don't believe that's really the case.

I think the data points to that on average.

At one point you said you like to have women do things to you, but you also said you like to do things to your female partners. So it's not like you're just lying there like a dead fish, right?

Ha yes no, I can see it might come across that way. More that any action by me is welcomed and preferred. That they don’t feel action from them is enjoyable, it is entirely not for their pleasure. Any action from me means they don’t need to reciprocate. To the point that all the action and desire comes from me. As I said this is not true of all women. Just a general bias.

Compatibility is the issue.

Though growing up I did lack the PIV obsession that seemed to be the norm and expected from me as a boy. I wasn’t obsessed with sticking it in. Is that relevant? I still don’t know. All part of the unusual sexual behaviour.

You don't think women have genuine sexual desire of their own?

I wouldn’t characterise it like that. I think it is a desire. I don’t think sexual desire is entirely about that.

I mean what do you think these women are enjoying about it? Lust, desire, wanting, all the normal things people like about having sex.

But the women who are sexually passive?

If 2/3 of my partner's girlfriends were active, how rare can it be? Remember that he's very gender conforming. Unless you think he's abnormal just by virtue of being with me.

By being with you he is experiencing something statistically unusual.

Just as a woman with a male crossdresser would be.

I still think there are on average differences between men and women in sexual behaviour and desires.

I think we both believe that but we disagree on the causes.

I'm still not entirely sure how you define passive. He's really not very strong-willed in terms of having to have a certain thing in bed.

You both sound active.

I’d add rarely initiating sex but expecting it, is passive. As if initiating it, is a turn off, at the same time being annoyed if the other person does not initiate it.

I know I respond more to active pursuit than my active pursuit. It took me some time to realise this. Just not being wired the same way as the average straight man.

That’s a wider point I’d make. I do see trans identities. I do see elements of myself as more accepted as female. But after looking a long time at the subject I remain seeing myself as a man. I don’t see myself as a woman sexually. I see myself as a crossdresser sexually. That is who I identify with no matter how good or bad that figure is. I can’t escape that.

I’m not demanding some extreme BDSM thing, mild is fine. I find some things women seem to want on /r/sex too extreme. Aggressive passion and appreciation of my expression is what I want.


I got it down to one! lol

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Ha, 4 months late, but I'm finally responding.

I don’t see this as thinking the female sex is inferior. Aggression does not mean better.

If one sex is aggressive towards the other sex, and that sex is presumed to enjoy being subordinate to them, that's inferiority. I don't see any way around that.

Women's Sexual Fantasies – The Latest Scientific Research

What do I make of this? Trauma from patriarchy, porn, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and childhood or adolescent exposure to inappropriate media.

Everything that is natural is not necessarily a moral good. I think that’s one of my starting points.

Sure, we would both agree on that. I just disagree that it is in any way natural for girls and women to want to be dominated and abused.

Specifically the straight crossdresser community is very thin. The community is very androphilic. It is often very based around sex with men and other gnc men. That’s super awkward as a straight man not attracted to other crossdressers. Online I got a lot of attention from men, even after saying I’m straight. There are a lot of assumptions. There can be an assumption that a straight crossdresser is a liar. Back to that pattern of gnc men being either gay or perverts.

Huh, that's interesting. Do you think the straight crossdresser community has been adversely affected by the increasing popularity of transition? I was under the impression the majority of crossdressers were straight, while most drag queens were gay. But maybe crossdressers have fallen by the wayside. Like Eddie Izzard. He used to be just a regular transvestite. Now he says he's trans.

There is a common refrain of “don’t let your crossdressing/sexuality” become your whole identity and I can see the good reasons and logic for that. But then you suppress and end up being a person that “springs” it on others. You drift into the closet only to find yourself around people who are not accepting. I realise now I ought to have placed it more central to my life. I accepted it when I was very young but that acceptance became internal and not external enough.

Do you think you would prefer a world where you could crossdress 24/7 and have it be totally accepted? Or do you prefer it only coming out in certain scenarios that you are able to preselect for? It sounds like it's more than a casual thing for you, but society doesn't allow you to express it.

Where I do find it more acceptable is the kink community, the fetish clubs. That is where crossdressing is more than tolerated, a straight crossdresser has a place not as part of gay culture but as a person outside sexual norms. There are also women there who appreciate gender non conformity in men and relationships.

I can see that. I have a hard time thinking about fetish clubs without feeling a sense of terror about the people involved in them. But I suppose for those who feel cast out from regular society, it would feel more like a refuge.

There are certainly women there who are dressing for sex in a way that turns themselves on.

Uh, I would assume so, since it's a fetish club. If they've got a fetish for leather or latex or something, dressing like that in a sexual environment would turn them on. That's why they go there in the first place.

Well obviously I think a “failed woman” is the wrong way of looking at it. I’d see you as embracing masculinity. That does not mean you need to embrace a transman identity. But that does not mean you can disconnect masculinity from men.

I don't see why not. Masculine women have a long history. There have always been women who preferred to "live like men." There would be more of them, I believe, if femininity was not forced on girls so heavily. You have to be strong and unusual to reject femininity as an adult woman, however tolerant society is (or was) about prepubescent tomboys.

But their gender expression is connected to their sexuality? There has to be some relationship.

Not everyone has a fetish like you do. A butch lesbian woman can dress in men's clothes without it being sexual for her. As for why she's butch, you'd have to ask her. I wouldn't speak on a lesbian's behalf. All I can say is that my gender expression is not connected to my sexuality, as far as I can tell.

But a lot of this is super common. The bdsm scene in my opinion is people theatrically expressing extremes forms of this.

Right, but if someone is unable to be aroused without imagining BDSM, that's a fetish. BDSM was never considered standard. Most people, even if they have "kinks," can still enjoy vanilla sex.

I just like female appreciation of my expression. It puts me in the mood and puts the right woman in the mood.

So it's the anticipation of being seen and appreciated by women that is the draw? It doesn't sound like it's a non-sexual activity for you then. Would you go to a park wearing like a sundress even if you knew there would not be any women there to admire you in it? Have you ever been dressed in women's clothing in public and not felt even partially aroused by the possibility? No judgment here, by the way. I'm just curious.

Really that’s what a lot of gender expression is about IMHO.

Uh, beg to disagree. Most women and men are not aroused by wearing ordinary clothing regardless of their orientation.

I don’t think you’re getting how harsh men are policed on gender.

No, I get it. But it's possible to find spaces that are more open. Especially in this day and age, right? Trans women walk right down the street in most cities and towns and no one accosts them.

Even small things will be judged by even liberal people. Tolerance does not mean people don’t act on it.

Sure, but who cares if they judge? I know people judge me. As long as they're not assaulting me, they can think what they want.

A man has to constantly police himself, especially a straight man.

People on the street don't know if you're gay or straight, transgender or simply a crossdresser. If a trans woman can be herself in public, why can't you? Do you think maybe you're held back by fear of social disapproval?

I have had women grab me at times. Pinch my bum, hand down my trousers.

Right, and it's a normal thing for a woman to grab a guy's ass or grab his junk. In a consensual context, of course. It's not some weird thing. You may think women do it less often, but they still do it.

Though growing up I did lack the PIV obsession that seemed to be the norm and expected from me as a boy. I wasn’t obsessed with sticking it in. Is that relevant? I still don’t know. All part of the unusual sexual behaviour.

Most guys are obsessed with sticking it in any available orifice, it seems. But you do enjoy PIV? It's not like you won't use your penis during sex?

But the women who are sexually passive?

I believe very few women are so passive that all they want to do is lie there. But even if they do, they're still enjoying stuff like intimacy, caressing, kissing, touching, and the physical sensations of sex.

By being with you he is experiencing something statistically unusual.

Sure, but do you think he's not a normal man in a sexual sense? I've asked him about this myself, actually, since I used to be so worried he would be judged negatively because of me. He says the way he sees it is that I'm a woman and he's a man and anyone who has a problem with that is just ignorant. I believe him. He's never shown any hesitance about us. I was always the one worried about what people would think.

You both sound active.

I'd say so.

I’d add rarely initiating sex but expecting it, is passive. As if initiating it, is a turn off, at the same time being annoyed if the other person does not initiate it.

Yeah, that's definitely neither of us.

I know I respond more to active pursuit than my active pursuit. It took me some time to realise this. Just not being wired the same way as the average straight man.

You like being seduced, I guess. Eh, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But at the same time, I don't get playing elaborate games. Like if I want sex, I'm not going to wait around for my partner to mention it.

That’s a wider point I’d make. I do see trans identities. I do see elements of myself as more accepted as female. But after looking a long time at the subject I remain seeing myself as a man. I don’t see myself as a woman sexually. I see myself as a crossdresser sexually. That is who I identify with no matter how good or bad that figure is. I can’t escape that.

Well, that's fair. I don't see any reason for you not to be a crossdresser. You're not negatively affecting anyone else. You're involving consenting partners. I don't think any BDSM-related stuff is healthy, but it doesn't sound like you go overboard with it. And you recognize biological reality. You're a man, even if you consider yourself a sexually unusual one.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Part 1

Ha, 4 months late, but I'm finally responding.

Hey. yes it’s been some time and that’s fine. I wrote this earlier before Christmas then went back to review it.

Back to two parts. Written up in google docs.

If one sex is aggressive towards the other sex, and that sex is presumed to enjoy being subordinate to them, that's inferiority. I don't see any way around that.

I wouldn’t see sexual aggression is a completely illigimate category. It covers being sexually pro active, provacative and initiating within a relationship.

I think it does also cover grey areas, mild bdsm and fantasy.

I also think it correlates with other masculine tropes.

What do I make of this? Trauma from patriarchy, porn, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and childhood or adolescent exposure to inappropriate media.

But you see people can enjoy bdsm without having experienced any of that?

Do you think all mild bdsm people are morally wrong? I guess you do.

But I totally get the political problem with it and I totally understand the gendered issue with it.

However I can’t ignore the popularity of it with women. Honestly it’s just everywhere and in the subtexts and fantasies.

I think for many women it’s a case of “Why would I argue against a level of it I like? That’s what I want. I know myself and I like that. I like the fantasy fiction, I like the idea of that and that man. In fact not being it means being unhappy or being something that doesn’t work for me.”

I expect you probably have debated women who advocate it many times. Do you think they are all in bad relationships?

Huh, that's interesting. Do you think the straight crossdresser community has been adversely affected by the increasing popularity of transition?

My guess is the crossdresser community is feeling squeezed from both sides.

There can be a perception from the trans community of “just transition, stop being an egg.”

There is also anger at “erotic crossdressers.” I have issues with some of that rhetoric.

You know the old jokes about the trans hierarchy? “Trannier than thou”

But the trans community is more likely to be positive to the crossdresser than the gc side.

There is increasing anger at the trans community. Crossdressers are caught in the middle. Maybe an identity that isn’t going to survive? Hmmn I think it will carry on. For the same reasons it exists. There are still going to be gnc people that don’t feel transition is correct for them.

I was under the impression the majority of crossdressers were straight, while most drag queens were gay. But maybe crossdressers have fallen by the wayside.

From the stats I’ve seen the majority are same sex attracted. However the plurality are heterosexual. I’ve seen a study with something like 40% het, 30% bi, 30% gay. That’s why the stats come out like this. Most can be married and most can be attracted to men and it can still be true. The old crossdresser societies had a ban on gay men. This was controversial but you can see the issue.

Drag is somewhat confusingly a mixed role, theatrical performance and engaging in femininity. Depending on the person.

Like Eddie Izzard. He used to be just a regular transvestite. Now he says he's trans.

Yeah they’re a bit all over the place.

Funnily enough, Izzard is one of those crossdressers I disagreed with in a similar way to Contrapoints. When they stated “It’s not women’s clothes, they’re mine.” Implying it’s only fashion, nothing to do with gender. I think they are being disingenuous. They are selecting for gender when they crossdress. I’d just say you are acting on gender when you crossdress. Why lie? It seems only for gender theory reasons.

I say yes it is a riff on femininity and femininity is connected to women. Doesn’t make me a woman even if I think that connection is natural. But that’s me.

Certainly both GC and the trans side might look on a crossdresser in the same way and say “Admit it you’re trans.” Even if it’s from different agendas. But I think there are larger dangers in that position and it’s not helpful for either side. Even if I think gnc people are related to trans people.

Do you think you would prefer a world where you could crossdress 24/7 and have it be totally accepted? Or do you prefer it only coming out in certain scenarios that you are able to preselect for?

I’d prefer if I could do it whenever I like and for it not to matter. Not be so politically and socially fraught. But it is, so that’s that.

What would change if it was different? I would dress more for some occasions. I would casually dress other times. Remember I said I used to dress and looked too gay. Being too sensual in appearance is socially dangerous for a straight man. But it probably comes out in other ways. Like having a suit too colour co ordinated. You cannot be too precious as a straight man. Straight men can’t be seen too much with gay men. All those things.

And again all the minor sexual things about desiring dominant women are not gender conforming. You can’t express that desire. It isn’t represented and it’s not acceptable to show.

It’s a rare thing like /r/rolereversal. You know that subreddit?

Where I do find it more acceptable is the kink community, the fetish clubs. That is where crossdressing is more than tolerated, a straight crossdresser has a place not as part of gay culture but as a person outside sexual norms. There are also women there who appreciate gender non conformity in men and relationships.

I can see that. I have a hard time thinking about fetish clubs without feeling a sense of terror about the people involved in them. But I suppose for those who feel cast out from regular society, it would feel more like a refuge.

Sure. I understand. Last time I went I enjoyed them because they accept and embrace all kinds of sexuality, not all mine. All kinds of sensuality. It is not all bdsm. Being with women who appreciate femininity in a man is so rare.

But that does not mean you can disconnect masculinity from men.

I don't see why not. Masculine women have a long history.

Because men are naturally going to be the majority of people interested in expressing masculinity.

Men are going to have advantages in many cultural expressions of masculinity.

But of course I’m far from thinking this ought to be enforced as a moral requirement.

There have always been women who preferred to "live like men." There would be more of them, I believe, if femininity was not forced on girls so heavily. You have to be strong and unusual to reject femininity as an adult woman, however tolerant society is (or was) about prepubescent tomboys.

More yes. I’m not sure about equal. I’m just not sure it’s as easy as that.

But their gender expression is connected to their sexuality? There has to be some relationship.

Not everyone has a fetish like you do.

Ha well fetish, that's the question.

A butch lesbian woman can dress in men's clothes without it being sexual for her. As for why she's butch, you'd have to ask her. I wouldn't speak on a lesbian's behalf. All I can say is that my gender expression is not connected to my sexuality, as far as I can tell.

Right but masculinity isn’t a perfect inversion of femininity. It’s those great questions of sex and sexuality. Do men enjoy their masculinity? What is the relationship exactly?

Masculine gender expression seems strongly linked to social roles.

Right, but if someone is unable to be aroused without imagining BDSM, that's a fetish. BDSM was never considered standard. Most people, even if they have "kinks," can still enjoy vanilla sex.

I think people have all kinds of fantasies during vanilla sex. That is super common and bdsm fantasies are super common.

I just like female appreciation of my expression. It puts me in the mood and puts the right woman in the mood. So it's the anticipation of being seen and appreciated by women that is the draw?

That sounds perfectly normal aspects of sexuality.

I don’t think being a crossdresser is strictly normal but I don’t think it's completely disconnected from the rest of sexuality going on.

It doesn't sound like it's a non-sexual activity for you then.

I think that’s an uncharitable view on it. Lots of people do and act things in public they find sexual. I don’t think people should sexually expose themselves in public. Sexuality involves display.

We probably do disagree on the role of masculinity and femininity in sexual display.

The women who strongly embrace “femininity” to degrees we both might find absurd likely do connect their sexuality to their gender expression.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hey, theory, still around? I didn't realize I never responded to your last few messages.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ah yes I LIVE lol

How are you doing worried19?