GC: What should happen to trans people after the media storm fizzles out

submitted by rainynights from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hey, welcome! It's good to have new people here, especially new trans posters. This sub is not very active, but many of us still lurk and occasionally contribute.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I feel bad that the old-school or "classic" transsexuals have been caught up in the new culture war. It's not really about them and never was. I believe what society is reacting to now is the complete and total lack of moderation and boundaries and the TRA resistance to any form of compromise or moderation. The vast majority of gender critical women only peaked because of how extreme things have gotten, myself included.

Should those that don’t comply with bathroom bills or those that take illicit hormones and are caught be punished legally?

I'm not really as caught up on the bathroom issue as some GC women are. I'm extremely GNC and "passed" as a boy as a kid, so I've been in and out of the men's room my whole life. I often use the men's restroom just because it's less likely to draw attention. I'm 6'1" and dress in men's clothes, so I'm often mistaken for male at first glance.

I think that if people can pass, they should do what trans people have always done and use the restroom that makes the most sense for their appearance, or a gender-neutral third space if there is one. Ideally, I think there should be male, female, and gender-neutral bathrooms in all public spaces, so it would make the choice for trans people a lot easier. It would also help non-trans GNC people who may get looks or comments in the restroom designated for their biological sex.

As far as illicit hormones go, I don't think anyone should be penalized for taking them. People who are selling them illegally should be dealt with however that is usually handled, but anyone giving them to minors should have to face serious consequences. It's not okay to give street hormones to kids. I personally don't think it's okay to give any hormones to kids, but especially ones who are not under a doctor's supervision. At least those doctors, as immoral as I believe they are, do blood tests and keep an eye on the hormone levels of the kids in question.

Can GC and TS exist with compromises and will GC speak up if Republican men in power make it illegal to be trans and try and make the past a reality again?

I would love to be able to compromise, and I know there are transsexuals like Blaire White and Buck Angel and even Caitlyn Jenner who recognize the need for moderation and compromise. But they are drowned out by the powerful TRA organizations who scream constantly about how treating trans people differently in any arena is hatred, bigotry, and genocide.

I don't believe the Republican men in power will try to make being trans illegal. I think some of the more extreme Republicans may be trying to overcorrect because of how crazy things have gotten, but fundamentally, most moderates and conservatives take a "live and let live" perspective on the situation. A lot of hysteria is being whipped up by these organizations and they seem to have legitimately convinced a portion of the trans population that they are in real physical danger, which is incredibly sad and socially irresponsible from my perspective. No one, not the most conservative Republican or the most radical of radical feminists, wants to see trans people physically hurt or killed. The only people who want that are violent men, the gay bashers who have been going after GNC males since long before the trans movement started.

I am worried about the backlash that is sure to head the way of the moderate T people who never asked for any of this. I believe the LGB community is also going to experience backlash due to the forced teaming with the TRA brigade. But I don't know what the solution is. The Democrats are making this issue their hill to die on, which doesn't bode well for the future.

[–]rainynights[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I appreciate the welcome and reply. It’s too bad that more people don’t contribute more since it seems like the discussion isn’t that bad here. Unfortunately these days everyone is extremely siloed into their own communities and aren’t able to cross over to “the other side” in a reasonable nor cordial manner.

It is my strongly held opinion that if GC people were in the same circumstances as people of trans experience then they would likely transition as well. They would also want to live their life normally and with dignity and would have a very different perspective than what they have now. The same goes for any kind person including if a trans person were instead born and lived their life as described by the horrific three letter epithet beginning with the letter C and ever so terribly ending with S. I think that humanizing the condition of gender dysphoria as something that, given the right circumstances, a person would rationally choose to transition because of is important when discussing these issues.

We seem to agree on the bathroom issue. For a good amount of people in the GC cult (just kidding) it appears like a lot of the disagreements on that front are due to whether or not TS women are able to pass. It seems to be a common belief that women of TS experience can never socially integrate into society as women and are always going to be complete outsiders… possibly also being the bestubbled owner of a harshly squared chin. From my personal experience I think that this issue is more nuanced than that and there are many different realities for the trans experience depending on how well one blends into the background of society.

No one, not the most conservative Republican or the most radical of radical feminists, wants to see trans people physically hurt or killed. The only people who want that are violent men, the gay bashers who have been going after GNC males since long before the trans movement started.

I find this mindset very common among people who are both supporters and detractors of TS people. However it degrades one’s quality of life to take things away from trans people such as resources for being able to transition (which we are currently seeing elements of in various states today) or making it technically illegal to use the public restroom that makes sense for how you look. While it’s not something that is tantamount to genocide it doesn’t create an environment that is that suitable for trans people in their own eyes. To extend that point further, trans people could surely live in insane asylums but it’s not much of a life. It doesn’t seem like people who are critical of trans people would really care if that happened just so long as they at least “weren’t murdered”. Maybe I’m reaching there but the “not my problem as long as I get my way even though it doesn't affect me beyond the realm of the conceptual '' attitude seems to be pretty common in various online discourse. In fact, on other places that I have read GC comments, variants of “not my problem” seems to be a common catchphrase to bleat after expressing a wish to restrict care that from a trans individual's perspective is critically important.

I apologize in advance for my unfeminine humor making light of our disagreements. My hormone shot is overdue and I’m feeling particularly indignant today.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I miss our debate sub on Reddit. It was very active, and we had a ton of trans posters, both transsexuals/transmedicalists and TRAs.

It is my strongly held opinion that if GC people were in the same circumstances as people of trans experience then they would likely transition as well.

What do you mean by the same circumstances? I don't think my experience is all that different from many trans people. I've struggled with dissatisfaction with my sex my whole life, too. It would sure as hell be a lot easier to pass as a man. I'd fit into society much better that way. But my only reason for doing so would be misogyny, internalized and otherwise. I think GNC women and girls in particular are being taught by the trans movement that we should disavow womanhood if we aren't jumping for joy about being female. But we are female regardless of whether we like it. We are female regardless of whether we relate to femininity or feminine stereotypes. And we are female even if we hate how people treat us because of it.

Because I am not a natal male I can't speak to your experience as a transsexual who came from the opposite direction. But I believe that the explosion of trans identification among younger females is related to a terrible defect within society, not a defect within the women and girls themselves.

I think that humanizing the condition of gender dysphoria as something that, given the right circumstances, a person would rationally choose to transition because of is important when discussing these issues.

I have no wish to dehumanize people with gender dysphoria, but there is a huge problem in the trans movement because the "powers that be" have decided that no one needs dysphoria to be trans. Instead, it's an opt-in category, and anyone can identify as such for any reason. This leads to not only bad actors, but also impressionable young people jumping on the bandwagon who have no way to relate to transsexuals such as yourself. It also leads to people, particularly young women with co-morbidities and other mental health issues, transitioning to escape their distress which may be caused by something else entirely and would be better served by actual therapy, not affirmation.

What may be rational and logical for a "classic" transsexual like yourself is very different from the circumstances of, say, a 14 year old girl who presented with no gender distress in childhood, who was the victim of rape or sexual abuse, who suffers from an eating disorder, who has an autism diagnosis, etc. You are two different populations.

It seems to be a common belief that women of TS experience can never socially integrate into society as women and are always going to be complete outsiders… possibly also being the bestubbled owner of a harshly squared chin.

Not always, but it is certainly much, much harder for natal males to pass as female. And this is another circumstance where self-ID is harming transsexuals who have made significant efforts to pass. You have the AGP crowd who make little to no effort, late transitioners who often do not bother with surgery and sometimes even hormones. Whereas the HSTS transsexuals typically went down a much different path fairly early in life. Even with all that, I do think that few transsexuals pass as female in person. Perhaps at a glance for bathroom purposes, but not in any kind of sustained way. If someone doesn't pass, I do think a legally mandated and protected third space would be a good solution.

I find this mindset very common among people who are both supporters and detractors of TS people. However it degrades one’s quality of life to take things away from trans people such as resources for being able to transition (which we are currently seeing elements of in various states today)

Frankly, at this point, I am only concerned about minors. Adults can do what they wish. I do have feelings about how the psychiatric industry is handling adults with gender dysphoria. There seems to be zero gatekeeping, but as long as someone has given fully informed consent, what they do with their bodies is up to them. I may think it's deeply unethical for doctors to hand out testosterone or perform surgeries without any attempt at therapy, but I don't consider it a criminal matter.

It doesn’t seem like people who are critical of trans people would really care if that happened just so long as they at least “weren’t murdered”.

Well, I don't feel that way. I'm not a Republican, but I don't think the vast majority of Republicans feel that way either. I think moderates and conservatives for the most part want trans people to be able to live in society and have legal protections in areas like housing, employment, and public accommodation. I believe most people want reasonable accommodations made and protected third spaces for prisons and shelters and so on. The fact that we are seeing backlash is due to the refusal of TRAs to compromise. And as far as medical care is concerned, no one would be saying anything about it for adults if TRAs had not chosen child medicalization as their hill to die on.

Of course, as you know, not all trans people are TRAs. Many TRAs are heterosexual and non-transgender. Joe Biden, for one. Many of the worst TRAs are not trans themselves. And there are trans people like Blaire White who stand up for child protection. So I don't paint all trans people with the same brush. I am happy to ally with trans people for a common cause like child protection or mandating gender-neutral third spaces.

I apologize in advance for my unfeminine humor making light of our disagreements. My hormone shot is overdue and I’m feeling particularly indignant today.

Ha, you're fine. I've talked with plenty of trans people, and it's nice to be able to have civil discourse even if we don't end up agreeing on everything.