QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I'm familiar with her and think she's great, but I can't imagine she would ever refer to herself as "cis."

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

She is female and identifies as a woman, therefore is cis by definition. She might have used the term "cis" in one of her earlier detrans videos but I am not sure.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Do we really need to do the whole "don't assign labels to other people" thing? If you have a citation of her saying she's cis, show it, but otherwise it's poor form to label someone like that.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Leigh describes herself as a "woman woman" and a "biological woman" and "female". How is this not exactly the same as cis? It would be poor form if I called her nonbinary some such, but cis woman is a synonym for these terms, is it not? Cis is defined as not trans. Or am I missing something?

[–]divingrightintowork 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Where did the term cis come from, though?

Groups can generally come up with labels for theirselves, but not labels for other people. No?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Oh, I see. You are objecting not to the concept, just to the label "cis". I see your point.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

FWIW she may well be 'cis' but unless she says as much, or you're in a trans-dominant space, you like probably shouldn't assume or call her that without checking - certainly if it is expected to use the preferred pronouns of someone even if they're not around and I don't believe they're the sex they think they are, no? (Also hi! I don't know your user name so I don't know your exact stances, but I'd be happy to hear them :) )

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Noted. I have previously assumed that "cis" was just a broad description but I guess it can be taken as an identity label and should be treated with more respect. I am already in trouble for referring to people by their biological sex. :-(

My stance is that I am broadly trans positive, but believe in immutable binary sex, and that trans people change only sex characteristics. While I support self ID for documents (or just omit gender markers), I think inclusion of trans women in women's sport should be evidence-based to ensure that it is safe and fair.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Well hi and welcome! I'm happy to have you here - may I ask how you ended up here? It's def't a pretty random space for someone to end up given the history and how it ended up on saidit.

For what it's worth a lot of GC people could arguably be "Trans positive," if you were to ask them a number of positive / negative questions about their beliefs regarding trans ppl (feel free to ask me a few, I'm curious now!).

Certainly a lot of what you said isn't hugely disagreeable to me, I'd likely seek some sort of middle ground on a lot of them - I also believe a lot in libertarianism which comes at a lot of things from a slightly different stance (like right of affiliation, and groups getting to set their own terms).

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I am an old-school liberal, pretty much a social libertarian and economic centrist. I like free speech, democracy, and the middle ground. I am here to help find workable compromises. I trained as a scientist, and am a sceptic, free thinker, atheist, and believe that there is an objective reality that we all share.

I realised over 20 years ago that I was what we now call nonbinary. Last year, I started engaging with the trans community on social media. What a horrible experience. The so-called "trans community" turned out to be a nest of authoritarian extremists who deny biological reality and suppress any dissent. I found out about identitarianism, wokeness, grievance culture, and their pervasive influence on the authoritarian left. I started hanging out on r/rightwinglgbt and r/uncensoredlgbt. I had enough karma on r/gc to edit the wiki. I was shocked when the banwave hit all my favourite subs and cleared out my inbox, so I came here.