Both: Do you think increasing time on the internet has contributed to more people identifying themselves as trans/nb etc.?

submitted by DistantGlimmer from self.GCdebatesQT

This is maybe a bit weird but I've read this theory before (I can't remember where) and I think it is interesting at least.

For background, I've been on the internet since the early 90s and especially back then one of the really cool things about it is that you could kind of make your own persona and stuff like your sex or race or what you looked like at least, in theory, did not matter much (and you had the option to actually keep that stuff private of course, especially back then when it was mainly text-based). Some people misused that to deceive people but I also think it was liberating more many people not to be tied into their physical body and identity so much or at least have an area where we could escape from that

So how this ties into the whole trans issue...People are spending more and more time online. Especially for a lot of young people, I think their identity in online spaces is very important, perhaps in some cases more important than in "meat space" and even though we have more video and ways to identify people online now I still think there's that sense in a lot of online space "If I identify as X then I am X and you can't tell me I'm not".

Of course, people want to be cool and different when they're young but I'm wondering to what extent the prevalence of people who live a lot of their lives online leads to the feeling that physical reality and the actual characteristics of their bodies are just not that important compared to what is in their head about themselves? I think this also might help to explain the push for self-id rather than requiring a physical transition. It is a very "online" way to look at identity.

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I feel like there has to be some kind of social contagion taking place just due to the massive increase in trans people compared to 20 years ago (it went from like 1:20000 estimated, to nearly 1:100). Internet usage and social networks seem to play a large role based on the Littman study, which was mostly transmen. It’s also so weird how over represented transwomen are in the tech sectors, which are presumably people who spent more time online growing up. I’m not really educated enough about it to say how it’s all connected, but it really feels like there is some connection.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks, those are very interesting points.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Social media may influence trans identification, especially amongst adolescent females. A psychiatrist I spoke with told me that, 10 years ago, 75% of his trans patients were MtF in the 20s, now they are 60% FtM in their teens. A huge shift. Whether it is a social contagion or peer support allowing treatment of previously unmet need, I do not know.

[–]SilverSlippers 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From what I've read, it might be the case. There has been a huge increase in the number of people seeking gender care. The demographic has also recently shifted as well. Historically most people seeking help for dysphoria were young boys and middle aged men. Now there is a huge increase in teenage girls. There have been a few studies on this but they usually result in the author being targeted by a TRA mob. Its pretty difficult to do any research on the causes of dysphoria without attracting the wrong kind of attention - so it mostly doesn't get done.

[–]MrFahrenheit46Gen Z butch dyke 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm a detrans lesbian and I can say with confidence that the Internet did play a role in me believing myself to be trans, as well as taking testosterone. When I first started socially transitioning at 14, I had no desire for SRS and was perfectly content to wait until after college to start T. But by the time I was 15, I was literally begging for T and doing frantic research on phalloplasty. I believe that my participation in certain online communities and some of the friends I made had something to do with that shift in mindset. Keep in mind that at the end of the day I blame no one but myself for my mistake, since I almost desisted but ended up continuing into medical transition out of cowardice.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

My feelings were there long before I knew anything about gender. The internet helped me learn more. Eventually I learned about gender identity, DSM-IV-TR Gender Identity Disorder, DSM-5 Gender Dysphoria, and realised that I had a nonbinary transgender identity. The internet did not cause my feelings, which were there before Google. The internet helped me to understand my feelings, name them, and place myself in relation to other transgender people.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Do you mind if I ask what non-binary actually mean to you? I don't really understand it. If it's just that you don't identify as either a man or woman aren't most people like that? Most people just accept the sex they were born into but a lot of us still rebel against masculinity and feminity and think gender roles are stupid. How is that different from being non-binary?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

People who rebel against gender roles can be gender nonconforming, that is, have gender expression not typical for their sex, rather than being trans. Nonbinary, like other trans, have a mismatch between their gender identity and sex, which usually results in gender dysphoria. I felt a deep discomfort with my male body and masculinity. Now I am a eunuch. I am otherwise mostly gender conforming.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

If you have sex dysphoria, what makes you different from any other trans person? Why the need for the special label?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Why do we need a word for chair when it is just a type of furniture? It is a more descriptive label. I do not identify, present, or live as a woman. Although I have some things in common with trans women, I have these significant differences. My transition was towards agender.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think it's more confusing than descriptive. "Non-binary" is used by tons of people who all have different definitions of the word. For some, it means gender nonconforming with no sex dysphoria. Same with "agender." Under QT terms, I'm definitely "agender" since I don't claim a gender identity and certainly don't feel like a woman.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Nonbinary is indeed confusing because it is an umbrella term. I do not consider people who are gender nonconforming but without the symptoms of a gender identity that does not match their sex to be nonbinary or other trans. The "gender diverse" label includes both trans people and cis GNC people. I agree that, if you do not identify as any gender, then you could be described as agender.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

How do you define "a gender identity that does not match their sex?" Does that include body dysphoria?

I can understand not wanting to call yourself a trans woman, but what about just transgender? The other labels seem unclear as well as unnecessary.

if you do not identify as any gender, then you could be described as agender

This is one of the reasons I think gender identity is harmful as well as confusing. There's no need for people to consider themselves not of their biological sex just because they hate femininity or masculinity. Hating femininity doesn't mean I'm not female. Hating masculinity doesn't mean you're not male. Now hating your male body parts is a different story. That's relevant because it's a sign of sex dysphoria.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How do you define "a gender identity that does not match their sex?"

That is a very good question. I do not think it can be answered objectively. It can only be inferred from reports of the symptoms of gender dysphoria.

Does that include body dysphoria?

Body dysmorphia is normally defined as excluding sex characteristics.

This is one of the reasons I think gender identity is harmful as well as confusing.

I disagree with this part (see below)

There's no need for people to consider themselves not of their biological sex just because they hate femininity or masculinity. Hating femininity doesn't mean I'm not female. Hating masculinity doesn't mean you're not male.

I am in complete agreement with you. Gender identity is a separate concept to sex. Trans people can change their sex characteristics but do not change their sex. I disagree that gender identity is harmful; mismatched gender identity is just a description of an experience that seems to be common to trans people. I think it is harmful to claim that trans people literally change sex.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, how would you personally define it? Not giving you a hard time. I'm genuinely curious. We had endless discussions on the old sub about it, but since the definition of "gender identity" changes from person to person, it's hard to debate unless you know exactly where someone is coming from.

When I think of trans people with body dysphoria, I think of primary sex characteristics like penises and vaginas. So it's different from dysmorphia. Maybe genital dysphoria would be a better term. Do you think people need genital dysphoria to be trans?

I disagree that gender identity is harmful

Maybe I should revise. I think it's harmful in that it leads people to believe biological sex can be changed or that things unrelated to the body are indications of needing to change one's sex characteristics. In extreme cases, it involves people undertaking risky medical transition even when they feel no distress about their body, purely because they have been led to believe that not "feeling like" their biological sex makes them part of some third category or the opposite sex's category. And the promotion of gender identity can lead to people attributing other bodily discomfort (due to pubertal changes, trauma, eating disorders, etc.) to transsexuality.

"Miserable as a teenage girl? Become a boy instead." The rate of natal female teenagers adopting trans identities has skyrocketed 4000%, which is clearly not in line with known history about transsexualism. I think this is one of those things that looks very different from a natal male vs. natal female perspective. Girls are currently raised in a culture that is hostile towards women, perhaps more hostile than any other time in recent history. We have a sexual predator in the White House. This is the first generation that has been raised on extreme violent Internet pornography. There is no way to be a fashionable or attractive teenage girl without embracing not just femininity, but sexualized, pornified femininity. Clothes for teenage girls are all tight and skimpy, designed to show off their bodies. Any girl who isn't comfortable with it, any girl who adopts a contradictory appearance, is being told this may mean she has a gender identity at odds with her sex.

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think whether a person is trans (or not trans) is an innate trait; however, it's evident that environmental factors can lead someone to believe they are trans even if they are actually not, such as with those who detransition after some time. That being said, I would argue that, technically speaking, the internet has evident impacts on whether someone identifies as trans, but not on whether someone actually is trans.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So you think someone with dysphoria who doesn't transition is actually trans innately? I disagree but that is an interesting point of view compared to the more common one that it is the act of identifying as trans that "makes you trans".

I mean, I may qualify as trans according to your definition as I have had some dysphoria symptoms but I definitely don't feel like I should be a woman (even before discovering GC ideology I never thought that).

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A lot of gay males have dysphoria during childhood for 2-3 years. It is mostly caused by social pressure and the fact that no one else around is like us and likes same sex. Majority if not all females have body dysmorphia during their teen years and their fast developing and changing body. And I do not agree that I am trans, or majority of gay males are trans, or that all women are trans.

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I suppose I was a little too vague in my last comment. Allow me to clarify on that point.

I usually make a distinction between gender dysphoria, and "sex dysphoria". Gender dysphoria is a description of distress someone experiences due to a conflict of their gender identity and their sex, while "sex dysphoria" is the distress someone experiences due to a conflict with their "internal" (for lack of better word) sex and their birth sex.

Gender dysphoria is a product of living in a gendered society (socialized behavior), and we would no longer have individuals with gender dysphoria in a genderless society. I do believe that sex dysphoric individuals would still exist in a genderless society, since it is strictly a sex-based distress being experienced.

In essence, sex dysphoric symptoms are innate, while gender dysphoric symptoms are a product of being socialized in a gendered society.

The act of having a gender identity that is not typically associated with your sex (i.e. a male identifying as a woman), makes you are transgender (alleviating gender dysphoric symptoms). So if you believe yourself to be a woman, and your birth sex is female, you would not qualify as transgender.

Meanwhile, if you pursue some form of medicalized treatment (i.e. a male pursuing female hormone replacement therapy), then you are transsexual (alleviating sex dysphoric symptoms). Generally, transsexual individuals also tend to be transgender, such as a male identifying as a woman, but also pursuing hormone therapy or surgery.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it depends a lot on age. If you're a natal female teenager, then definitely. I also think race and social class are factors.

more people identifying themselves as trans/nb

In the case of the latter, that's something wholly driven by the Internet. While there's a long history of evidence of transsexuals in our culture and third-genders in other cultures, no one would have a clue what "non-binary" was without the Internet.

[–]Lapis_Lazuli 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Absolutely. There's close to zero question in my mind.