Both: Do you think increasing time on the internet has contributed to more people identifying themselves as trans/nb etc.?

submitted by DistantGlimmer from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]catoborosnonbinary 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

My feelings were there long before I knew anything about gender. The internet helped me learn more. Eventually I learned about gender identity, DSM-IV-TR Gender Identity Disorder, DSM-5 Gender Dysphoria, and realised that I had a nonbinary transgender identity. The internet did not cause my feelings, which were there before Google. The internet helped me to understand my feelings, name them, and place myself in relation to other transgender people.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Do you mind if I ask what non-binary actually mean to you? I don't really understand it. If it's just that you don't identify as either a man or woman aren't most people like that? Most people just accept the sex they were born into but a lot of us still rebel against masculinity and feminity and think gender roles are stupid. How is that different from being non-binary?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

People who rebel against gender roles can be gender nonconforming, that is, have gender expression not typical for their sex, rather than being trans. Nonbinary, like other trans, have a mismatch between their gender identity and sex, which usually results in gender dysphoria. I felt a deep discomfort with my male body and masculinity. Now I am a eunuch. I am otherwise mostly gender conforming.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

If you have sex dysphoria, what makes you different from any other trans person? Why the need for the special label?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Why do we need a word for chair when it is just a type of furniture? It is a more descriptive label. I do not identify, present, or live as a woman. Although I have some things in common with trans women, I have these significant differences. My transition was towards agender.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think it's more confusing than descriptive. "Non-binary" is used by tons of people who all have different definitions of the word. For some, it means gender nonconforming with no sex dysphoria. Same with "agender." Under QT terms, I'm definitely "agender" since I don't claim a gender identity and certainly don't feel like a woman.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Nonbinary is indeed confusing because it is an umbrella term. I do not consider people who are gender nonconforming but without the symptoms of a gender identity that does not match their sex to be nonbinary or other trans. The "gender diverse" label includes both trans people and cis GNC people. I agree that, if you do not identify as any gender, then you could be described as agender.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

How do you define "a gender identity that does not match their sex?" Does that include body dysphoria?

I can understand not wanting to call yourself a trans woman, but what about just transgender? The other labels seem unclear as well as unnecessary.

if you do not identify as any gender, then you could be described as agender

This is one of the reasons I think gender identity is harmful as well as confusing. There's no need for people to consider themselves not of their biological sex just because they hate femininity or masculinity. Hating femininity doesn't mean I'm not female. Hating masculinity doesn't mean you're not male. Now hating your male body parts is a different story. That's relevant because it's a sign of sex dysphoria.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How do you define "a gender identity that does not match their sex?"

That is a very good question. I do not think it can be answered objectively. It can only be inferred from reports of the symptoms of gender dysphoria.

Does that include body dysphoria?

Body dysmorphia is normally defined as excluding sex characteristics.

This is one of the reasons I think gender identity is harmful as well as confusing.

I disagree with this part (see below)

There's no need for people to consider themselves not of their biological sex just because they hate femininity or masculinity. Hating femininity doesn't mean I'm not female. Hating masculinity doesn't mean you're not male.

I am in complete agreement with you. Gender identity is a separate concept to sex. Trans people can change their sex characteristics but do not change their sex. I disagree that gender identity is harmful; mismatched gender identity is just a description of an experience that seems to be common to trans people. I think it is harmful to claim that trans people literally change sex.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, how would you personally define it? Not giving you a hard time. I'm genuinely curious. We had endless discussions on the old sub about it, but since the definition of "gender identity" changes from person to person, it's hard to debate unless you know exactly where someone is coming from.

When I think of trans people with body dysphoria, I think of primary sex characteristics like penises and vaginas. So it's different from dysmorphia. Maybe genital dysphoria would be a better term. Do you think people need genital dysphoria to be trans?

I disagree that gender identity is harmful

Maybe I should revise. I think it's harmful in that it leads people to believe biological sex can be changed or that things unrelated to the body are indications of needing to change one's sex characteristics. In extreme cases, it involves people undertaking risky medical transition even when they feel no distress about their body, purely because they have been led to believe that not "feeling like" their biological sex makes them part of some third category or the opposite sex's category. And the promotion of gender identity can lead to people attributing other bodily discomfort (due to pubertal changes, trauma, eating disorders, etc.) to transsexuality.

"Miserable as a teenage girl? Become a boy instead." The rate of natal female teenagers adopting trans identities has skyrocketed 4000%, which is clearly not in line with known history about transsexualism. I think this is one of those things that looks very different from a natal male vs. natal female perspective. Girls are currently raised in a culture that is hostile towards women, perhaps more hostile than any other time in recent history. We have a sexual predator in the White House. This is the first generation that has been raised on extreme violent Internet pornography. There is no way to be a fashionable or attractive teenage girl without embracing not just femininity, but sexualized, pornified femininity. Clothes for teenage girls are all tight and skimpy, designed to show off their bodies. Any girl who isn't comfortable with it, any girl who adopts a contradictory appearance, is being told this may mean she has a gender identity at odds with her sex.