GC: What are the true definitions of male and female that do not exclude people that have removed all of their genitals and/or can't produce sperm or egg? And why doesn't sex change when secondary sexual characteristics change?

worried19 · 2020-09-11T02:42:17+00:00

I'm confused on why this is confusing. Making later alterations to your body does not erase the sex you were born as. You're still that sex, even if you have obfuscated it. A baby boy is born male. He's still male even if his society later decides to castrate him. Being a eunuch doesn't mean he's no longer male. Cats and dogs are routinely spayed and neutered, and they're still male and female, too.

anfd · 2020-09-11T04:38:08+00:00

Questions like this arise again and again because sex is thought to be an abstract thought excercise, "why define sex through these things and not these others that someone likes better?" Instead sex should be seen as part of an evolved biological system called sexual reproduction that came about ca. 1 billion years ago.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-11T15:43:49+00:00

Trans activists use these sort questions as some sort of gotcha to try to push the idea that "biological sex is a spectrum and can be changed". The reality is that sex is immutable and easily observible at birth 99.8% of people. For the remainig fraction who do actually need their sex assigned to them they are still clearly a subclass of the sex they belong to and it is insulting and othering to act as if people with DSDs are not "clearly' male or female.

Omina_Sentenziosa · 2020-09-11T02:11:26+00:00

Just copying my answer to your other thread.

First of all, the definition is not "that produces ovas/sperm", it' s "belonging to the category that produces ovas/sperm". People who don' t produce ovas/sperm because of age, choice or illnesses are still in those categories because, without the age/choice/illness, they would produce them.

Secondly, Let' s assume for a second that the definition is indeed the one you provided: then it means that you need to produce ovas/sperm to be considered a wo/man. A male who grows female secondary sex characteristics still doesn' t produce ovas and as such isn' t a woman/female. A female who grows male secondary sex characteristics still doesn' t produce sperm and as such isn' t a man/male.

loveSloane · 2020-09-11T06:32:19+00:00

The definitions don’t exclude someone just because they “removed” their genitals and or don’t produce sperm/egg. The definitions don’t rely on someone’s ability to reproduce. Or their appearance. It’s simply the sex you were born into and it can’t be changed. No one is excluded, not even when they really want to be or try hard to change their bodies. You’re re the sex you were born- period. As for the last part- secondary means it doesn’t stand on its own. Unlike... primary. And primary characteristics arent even included in the definitions you’re asking about. Rather, typical function is. Secondary sex characteristics usually indicate sex, primary confirms. (Eta- and no, bottom surgery doesn’t mean you’ve changed sex- it means you had surgery. Full stop.)

The definitions you provided typically have a few words you left out- “born of” or “belonging to” Which means being born of/belonging to the sex that (insert definitions of male and female because I’m not typing all of that). Which is to say- you are born that sex. You belong to that sex. That’s it. It doesn’t mean you have to reproduce or even be capable. It doesn’t mean if you change the secondary characteristics or “remove” your genitals anything significant in regards to your actual sex has changed.

If what you’re saying made any sense, then that would mean that children, who don’t produce sperm/egg, wouldn’t have a sex. Except they go through puberty. Different types (one of 2) of puberty. Which one they experience depends on their sex- meaning they had a sex the whole time. women who have gone through menopause or any adult with fertility issues/who is sterile- women go through menopause because they are female. And infertility/sterility always has a cause that is specific to someone’s sex. Of the thousands of scenarios you could list to try to make what you’re saying accurate, it just won’t work. Even the sex of a corpse can be identified. Even a skeleton. And they certainly can’t reproduce. I’m not even sure what you’re going for, since all the examples you listed would at best, render someone “sexless” since a male doesn’t have eggs and a female can’t produce sperm. So even if you’re relying on your definition, you’ve done trans people no favors.

MezozoicGay · 2020-09-11T05:35:32+00:00

I will not be repeating what was already said in topic here, just adding that cosmetic surgeries will not change bone structure and joints, musle structure and internal organs differences as well. You always can understand who is walking to you, male of female, just based on persons gait - because male pelvis is not moving during walking or running, while women pelvis does. And there dozens of such differences, because the very basic structure of body is different, and whole body was built around the intention of fulfilling one of two reproduction roles.

Here video from main sub: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEZrNLagwls

yishengqingwa666 · 2020-09-11T00:46:33+00:00

A man cannot be any kind of woman. Ever.

Catbug · 2020-09-11T07:21:21+00:00

Belonging to the category that would, without presence of disease/injury/malformation/old age produce either sperm or ova.

Women are not women only when ovulating or gestating. The definition in the title is not what gc believes.

Lasers and breast implants and facial feminisation surgery don’t make the man in question part of the category of adult humans that would produce ova, so it can’t possibly make him a woman.

SilverSlippers · 2020-09-18T01:11:11+00:00

Biological sex is based on which set of gametes your body developed the structures to produce while still in the womb. A woman who has a hysterectomy and takes testosterone still developed in utero to produce eggs.

peakingatthemoment · 2020-09-11T03:09:21+00:00

I feel like this video explains it really well.

https://youtu.be/XN2-YEgUMg0

We can change our parts or take medications that make our bodies develop different, but it doesn’t change how we were born. Even though I may not look like a male or have physical characteristics males usually have, I am still a male because that is how I was born. If someone cloned me somehow, that child would be a boy.

ALesbian · 2020-09-11T15:58:20+00:00

You can remove or change genitalia but you can not change your chromosomes.

Males have xy chromosomes. Females have xx chromosomes.

divingrightintowork · 2020-09-12T04:35:28+00:00

Easy - the body is built around that reproductive function and sex role. If I take away a bicycle's wheels, is it still a bicycle? If I take the wings off of an airplane, what is it? Is it now a bicycle? Airplanes are bicycles!
Wut? Are you saying a man who looses his dick some how and has long hair and gynecomastia is a woman?

kwallio · 2020-09-11T23:02:49+00:00

The definition of male and female is really not that complicated. I think what is tripping people up is that there is no one defining characteristic of male or female, more of a constellation of characteristics that generally occur together and people can have some or all but for me its not about whether a male person has all the characteristics of a male but whether they have characteristics of the OTHER sex. For the vast majority of humans your sex is determined by your chromosomes, wierd edge cases like SRY+ xx males don't matter that much to the basic definition of what male and female are. Secondary sex characteristics are just that, secondary. Infertility, changing secondary sex characteristics, surgically removing parts of your anatomy don't change or alter your sex at all and arguing that they do is kind of silly.

ANIKAHirsch · 2020-09-12T03:21:26+00:00

I would call them "men" and "women". These terms are already inclusive of those individuals.

Sex is as declared at birth.

Zapped · 2020-09-12T14:04:58+00:00

Some people confuse gender with gender identity. There are genetic mutaions that bring about some strange disorders, but chomosomes define gender.

catoboros · 2020-09-12T01:41:41+00:00

Genetics is a powerful force that defines much of our humanity. Sex is in our genes. Human sexual dimorphism leaves an indelible mark. While trans people can change some sex characteristics, our sex is immutable.

levoyageur718293 · 2020-09-14T18:54:37+00:00

Because the sex categories not only include members who can actually perform the reproductive role, but also those who have a facsimile of it - they either could in the past, reasonably will be able to in the future, or are clearly deficient in performing it. I like to invoke an old Soviet joke to make the situation plain.

A man walks into a butcher's shop and sees that all its shelves are empty. He says to the clerk, "are you completely out of meat?" "No," says the clerk, "this is a bakery and we're completely out of bread. The butcher's shop is next door, they're the ones who are completely out of meat."

Sex functions exactly the same way in humans as it does in other mammals, and while there are words for castrated males and words for spayed females, there has never been a word that applied to both of them equally. An ox is never a cow. Why do you think that is?

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