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QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I respect your answer. I would be perfectly happy to refer to you as you see fit. Since the majority of self-declared non-binary people do not have dysphoria nor do they receive surgery of any kind on their bodies, you can understand why my perception is of people who just want to be special. Very different from what you have described.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Quite sure with the vast majority of them it is just a fashion trendy thing though and a way for males to claim they opt-out of privilege.

Yep. See point #4 on my list.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is exactly what it is.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You are right which is why I do not support it. I do not support people who have a pathological need for attention and being "special" and trying to force me to validate their need to be special and unique. I think "non-binary" is the result of various sociopolitical forces:

  1. The "everyone is special in his or her own way!" participation trophy mentality pushed by this generation's parents and the need to feel special and unique

  2. People who are gender-nonconforming who are correct in recognizing the oppressiveness of gender roles but have mistakenly conflated being GNC with being another gender altogether

  3. Western identity politics and the desire to find some way in which one is "oppressed" because of the social currency it provides to people on the political Left

  4. Mental disorders such as narcissistic personality disorder and a pathological need for attention and being centered and validated.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I take the transmedicalist "truscum" view of who is trans. Discontent with societal gender roles and mere desires to be the opposite sex because of them are both entirely irrelevant to me and do not compel me that your self-ID should be validated.

If someone does not have dysphoria, then their discontent when I refuse to validate their feelings is an issue that can be fixed through therapy and evaluation for narcissistic personality disorder, and threats of suicide are nothing more than mental manipulation.

If you have a mentally pressing, immutable feeling that your body should be that of the opposite sex and it causes you to be so discontent with continuing to live as your birth sex that you feel an immediate need to transition otherwise an inability to go on, you are trans and I will respect your pronouns, chosen name, etc. out of compassion.

QT/All: Why exactly should we accept non-binary people and validate their identity?

by IceColdLover to /s/GCdebatesQT from self.GCdebatesQT

GC: How would you feel if people insisted changing language of men's health? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would not care because men are not an oppressed group, and doing so would not in any way impact men's access to healthcare nor have any tangible impact on them other than mild inconvenience.

ALL: Why do non-binary people need to identify as a different gender to present themselves the way they do and like the things they like? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is how I feel. It is people who are otherwise not interesting people and need to supplement their boring personality with something "new" and "hip".

How are trans people oppressed? by pollyesther in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would say trans people are socially excluded and on the outside of society but they are not systematically oppressed, at least not at this point.

QT: If someone agreed to compromise with you on everything EXCEPT calling trans women "women" and trans men "men" and share intimate spaces with them, would you be satisfied with this? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I say "they" I mean a given individual. Could be me, or anyone else.

QT: If someone agreed to compromise with you on everything EXCEPT calling trans women "women" and trans men "men" and share intimate spaces with them, would you be satisfied with this?

by IceColdLover to /s/GCdebatesQT from self.GCdebatesQT

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with you entirely. If others want to follow gender roles have at it, but the legal recognition of adherence or lack thereof as the cornerstone of a separate identity which we are all legally bound to accept and embrace, is something I see as an infringement on women's rights.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t think that’s true. The majority of people are okay with us. Though a substantial minority aren’t. Hence the need for protections.

I am "okay" with trans women as in I respect your dignity as a human being and I would be kind to you if you are kind to me. I just don't consider you a woman.

I mean you aren’t wrong but that’s not surprising. Because men are as a group evil. There’s a reason I can never be comfortable alone with a cis man. I don’t mind being called a trans woman as long as the implication isn’t that I’m a man.

As mentioned above I am fine with acknowledging you as a third category, not a man but also not a woman. I think "trans" should be a separate category altogether, and I don't even have an issue using "she" and "her" (as long as it is not legally mandated) but I don't consider you a woman. A trans woman, yes, not a woman.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with this completely.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Similarly if you hate men because men are terrible and the tropes associated with them disgust you, the last thing to do is say "you are right those tropes are legitimate, so if you don' t like them you should totally get invasive surgery and voilà!!!!!! Problem solved!!!!". Not gonna happen.

It is noteworthy that trans people often say they are not placing men and women into stereotypical boxes, but it almost invariably boils down to having some preconceived notion, on their part, of what "men" and "women" are as discrete, non-overlapping social categories based on sex stereotypes, and wanting to opt out of the one assigned to them. And I agree with them, no one should have to be part of a social category based on sex stereotypes, those should not exist at all.

In my world, "men" and "women" are medical categories based on biological sex alone which determine nothing more than who can access which spaces. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want this world unless they get some sort of thrill from dressing as/being viewed as the other sex.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What I meant is that the gatekeeping I would allow would require for no social dysphoria as well.

I didn't even think of this when making my list above but I agree with it. People with social dysphoria around gender roles should not be given hormones nor therapy, which are medical treatments, for something that is a social and societal issue.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Those protections won’t stop a cop from beating a trans women who had the nerve to be attractive when they get pulled over.

You speak as if the majority of trans women can pass. If a cop pulled over the average trans woman, even if their documentation said "female" or "woman" the cop would still know in 90% of cases it is a trans woman and the reaction would be the same.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We don’t have any systemic power. At best we’ve fostered enough sympathy that people feel bad enough to generally support us but it isn’t about power. Because that could change in sympathies of the people who have power.

You have fostered enough sympathy amongst people with systematic power, but the impact of this is that it is being forced from the top down on everyone else. What this means is that the VAST majority of women, and men for that matter do not consider you a woman in any meaningful way but are being forced to say they do because of threat to their livelihood. I was about to ask if this makes you feel wrong in any way for suppressing others' speech and forcing them to lie but then I realized of course not.

There is nothing I consider more an insult than being called a man.

If that is the worst thing someone could call you then what you really need isn't estrogen, it is therapy. I would suspect that men have mistreated you in ways that have traumatized you and you need closure, or there is something else going on mentally. I am saying this out of compassion.

I would call you a trans woman, not a woman. If that isn't good enough for trans women in general well it's the most I am willing to bend.

ALL: Do you feel that you have an "innate" sense of gender identity? Do you feel naturally pulled toward the gender roles placed on your sex?

by IceColdLover to /s/GCdebatesQT from self.GCdebatesQT

Both: Do you think drag is offensive or problematic? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see it as akin to cultural appropriation when it is men dressing in drag as women. It is a dominant group embodying the most demeaning stereotypes of women. More importantly, it really shows us how men truly view women.

Since women do not hold systematic power over men, I have no issue with the reverse.

Why do we call them transGENDER and call it GENDER dysphoria rather than SEX dysphoria? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. If someone has sex dysphoria I would want to be compassionate to them but if they simply want to wear heels and dresses then I'd say, you go do that, I support you 100% but it does not make you a woman.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Social acceptance isn’t rights. I’m America the only national protection trans people have the the tenuous employment protections we got this year via Supreme Court decision.

It's not a matter of social acceptance. Socially you're not accepted as a woman. I can promise you that what I and other GC women are saying is how the vast majority of women would feel if surveyed completely anonymously on the subject with the reassurance that whatever they said would never be held against them. Only because of the threat of unemployment, violence, rape threats and death threats are people "accepting" you as a woman, which is not acceptance but coercion.

Trans rights don’t interfere with women’s rights. So it wouldn’t be right but also the conflict is illusory.

This is not true. When women are forced to not use certain words and phrases because it offends trans sensibilities, that is an infringement on our rights. When women have to jump through hoops to challenge predatory males' presence in our spaces (and I do not mean most trans women) that is an infringement on our rights. When women are being pushed out of the spaces we created for our own protection by males who identify as women, that is an infringement on our rights.

You have recourse. That’s my point. If you are harassed at work you can sue. We couldn’t under the proposed system.

If I was harassed at work by a trans woman and I reported it, I would likely be accused of being transphobic because I am seen as lower on the oppression totem pole.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You have to understand when I say "men" I mean all biological males, whether they identify as men or not. I will call you, if I see you in person by what you ask me to call you because you have had the systematic power to ensure I must otherwise my life becomes hell on earth if I don't. All males have privilege over females by virtue of being born male in a society that privileges maleness.

I am fine with calling you a transwoman, if you really do not want to be referred to as a man, since you are a transwoman, but to me you'll never be just a woman.

QT/Trans/TRA - What reciprocal courtesy or labor do you extend to GC who will honor your pronouns? (but everyone can comment) by divingrightintowork in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GC woman here, I do call trans people by their preferred pronouns, partly out of what is still compassion and partly out of fear, and I find that the only "reciprocity" I get is that I am off the chopping block and do not get verbally or physically harassed.

If there was to be a comparison to religious practices it'd be the Islamic jizya tax, it's like paying for your own protection. Give me what I want, pay up, and I'll leave you alone.

Why do we call them transGENDER and call it GENDER dysphoria rather than SEX dysphoria? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, and what I want is a world where gender roles do not exist, which means the only people needing to "transition" in any way would be those with dysphoria related to their biological sex, which would then be considered a mental illness and receive anti-discrimination protection as one, no different than people with depression, ADHD, and so on.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely. That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.

If you go into the women's room, since women are the oppressed sex category and mixed-sex spaces effectively become "male" dominated because of the power dynamics between male and female people, you would be turning that restroom into a male restroom by default.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We don’t have rights. That’s kind of the problem.

Clearly, trans people (mostly trans women but not exclusively) have had the ability to redefine gender and sex, force other people to pretend to agree with and parrot their views under the threat of unemployment and physical violence, hijack entire social and political movements such as BLM and center themselves in nearly everything, and wreak havoc against those who refuse, does this sound like something that a truly oppressed group of people could accomplish?

I literally quoted you just above the like you quoted. Then interpreted it. How else could one interpret a statement about rights for “half the population” being more important that rights of a smaller group exactly?

Right now we have the opposite: the rights of 0.6% of the population are being prioritized over 50% of the population. Why is that fair to you but not the reverse?

We would have to be subject to constant insult and harassment with no recourse. Imagine a workplace where someone could call you the most heinous thing you could conceive of and there was absolutely nothing you could do about it.

So do women every day of our lives. Find someone else to feel sorry for you because at this point it's not going to be me.

Why do we call them transGENDER and call it GENDER dysphoria rather than SEX dysphoria? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If trans people have sex role distress most of the time rather than sex dysphoria, then the solution is to eradicate gender roles as a requirement in society and then this issue will go away.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But if #3 was implemented, then there would be no logical reason to be trans except for what was outlined under #2.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I feel differently if they actually experience dysphoria but that is not the majority of cases.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m not even non-binary but that seems pretty awful for them.

Non-binary people and the ideology they uphold makes life extraordinarily more difficult for gender-nonconforming people who simply want to live their lives as they are. A girl likes playing football and skateboarding and doesn't want to paint her nails? Here come the hordes of people now pressuring her to identify as non-binary or a trans man. A boy wants to paint his nails and still call himself a boy? No, now he is told he is a self-hating non-binary person who hasn't accepted himself yet. It's offensive, ridiculous, and regressive.

For non-binary identity to be valid, it means that "women" must all behave one way, "men" must behave another, and anyone who is not strictly masculine or feminine in their interests, tastes, preferences, and style is a third gender. While I have empathy for transsexuals and people with gender dysphoria around their biological sex, I actually believe non-binary identity, like self-ID trans ideology where dysphoria is not prerequisite, is founded upon a very oppressive, conservative, and regressive mentality around what is expected of people because of their sex, as well as a pathological, narcissistic need for attention.

So while my ideal world does allow for trans people who are transsexual and experience dysphoria around their sex to exist and live, even legally and societally as their preferred sex, because I believe in creating a compassionate society where no one is discriminated against for factors outside of their control, anything that is based on vague feelings of "gender" around sexist stereotypes would no longer be recognized as an identity that anyone else is bound to respect.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with everything you have said here.

Why do we call them transGENDER and call it GENDER dysphoria rather than SEX dysphoria? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right, which is why I think we need to go based on sex because it is a concrete, observable characteristic, not a mere feeling that cannot be verified.

GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If it were up to me, this is what it would be, and in many ways it overlaps with the transmedicalist/"truscum" view of what it is to be trans.

  1. The word "gender" would stop being used altogether when referring to trans issues: we would call trans people "transsexual" and dysphoria related to biological sex, "sex dysphoria", since that is really what it is about. Only people experiencing dysphoria around their physical sex would be considered trans.

  2. "Trans" would refer to people who are diagnosed by a qualified professional with physical, body-related dysphoria related to their biological sex, and who have begun physical transition. The basis for who is and is not trans would NOT be based on self-identification alone. As a compassionate person, I would personally be willing to refer to these people with the sex and pronouns they wish to be referred to with out of empathy for their condition. After undergoing full surgical intervention, trans women would be allowed legally to access sex-segregated spaces for women.

  3. Gender roles and sex stereotypes would be viewed as antiquated and would no longer be enforced. No one would be expected to behave, dress, express themselves any specific way on the basis of their biological sex.

  4. Consequently, non-binary identification would no longer be recognized as valid.

  5. Trans people would receive protection under the law under anti-discrimination measures surrounding mental illness, not under "gender identity."

Why do we call them transGENDER and call it GENDER dysphoria rather than SEX dysphoria?

by IceColdLover to /s/GCdebatesQT from self.GCdebatesQT

ALL: Why do non-binary people need to identify as a different gender to present themselves the way they do and like the things they like? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can't say I disagree.

ALL: Why do non-binary people need to identify as a different gender to present themselves the way they do and like the things they like? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know why we don't get rid of gender roles entirely, if we did then this entire discussion would be a moot point because there would be no standards. There would still be trans people who feel physical dysphoria around their biological sex, but that is not GENDER dysphoria it is SEX dysphoria, which in my opinion is really what being trans is all about.

ALL: Why do non-binary people need to identify as a different gender to present themselves the way they do and like the things they like? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Or some may just be uncomfortable labeled as men or women for whatever reason.

If not based on gender stereotypes or a pathological need to be different/special, then this sounds like, in the case of female NB people, internalized sexism because of society's negative portrayal of what it means to be a woman and the oppression that comes with it, and in the case of male NB people, a desire to say "I'm not like the other guys" and find a way to be in an oppressed category rather than a privileged one.

QT but all can comment - How would you refute the argument that The phrase "transwomen are women" presupposes that there is a cultural role for women to fill? by DistantGlimmer in GCdebatesQT

[–]IceColdLover 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can't refute it because it is true.

Apart from:

1) people with gender dysphoria, which should really be seen as a mental illness that leads to false perceptions much like schizophrenia and various eating disorders, where you could say some men view themselves as women for reasons entirely out of their control, and 2) people with autogynephilia, and for whom presentation as a woman is due to fulfilling a sexual fetish,

many trans women cite their reasons for "feeling" like a woman by referencing cultural norms and gender roles assigned to women that they wish to fulfill more than those assigned to men, for instance preferring dolls over action figures, relating more to girls and women as friends, feeling they are "too feminine" to be men, not wanting to play combat sports, wanting to wear dresses and heels, and so on. These all relate to cultural roles of women and of men.

ALL: Why do non-binary people need to identify as a different gender to present themselves the way they do and like the things they like?

by IceColdLover to /s/GCdebatesQT from self.GCdebatesQT