Both: Early childhood socialization and what causes people to become trans

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

There are a couple of conversations going on in other threads about this, so I thought it would be interesting to have a dedicated topic.

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about people with adolescent or late onset dysphoria, but those who have had "persistent, insistent, and consistent" feelings of wanting to be the opposite sex from early childhood, continuing through adolescence, and persisting into mature adulthood.

People naturally wonder what causes this. What causes children to be out of step with their peers, to the point of extreme distress about their bodies? Do you think it's related at all to the way we socialize children, particularly male children, and shove them into rigid gender boxes so that they are unable to express their true selves?

If very feminine little boys were allowed to be very feminine and encouraged to be very feminine, allowed to have dresses and long hair, not shamed for liking toys and other things associated with girls, would fewer of them turn out to be transsexual in adulthood? Is shame and repression of their true natures causing those children to believe they are the other sex because they fit the other sex's stereotypes better, and thus turn against their own bodies as a result?

I'd be interested to hear from trans women if they think their early childhoods and the gendered society they found themselves in contributed to them adopting a cross-sex identity in adulthood. Do you believe that if we had the GC ideal of total gender abolition, that you would still have grown up to be transsexual? I'd be interested to hear from trans men, too. Statistically, early childhood onset dysphoria is much less common in natal females. It's my belief that fewer exist because gender roles for female children are more malleable. At least prior to the past 10 years, GNC female children were rarely pathologized.

In my own case, I was a classic example of a female child who presented with masculine interests and masculine identification starting around age 3, but after some brief pushback from my mom, I was allowed to present and basically "live as a boy" from that point forward. Obviously, I knew I was not an actual boy, but I had that freedom, and I seemed to be accepted as living in the male role by my family and my peers. I was therefore at peace with my body and I feel this was perhaps a reason why I never developed any animosity towards it.

For those who are QT in particular, what are your feelings on this subject?

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I find it too hard to trust anyone who claims to have many vivid memories of toddlerhood or very early childhood.

What might be a very real memory of some vague distress is painted over with newer information and the emotional state you’re in when recalling an event. This feels particularly true when reading the thousandth account of a man claiming he ached and battled himself internally over fondness for dresses at six.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

That's true. Maybe some people can remember their early childhood very well, but I only have foggy memories and a handful of clear flashes of certain scenes. But I do distinctly remember the feelings of distress associated with female presentation. I was normally a placid and agreeable child, but I know I had violent, screaming tantrums on this topic alone. I was not the type of kid who had them otherwise, and my parents have backed that up. Their memories of this time are obviously a lot clearer than mine.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I’m sure you experience the recollections as very vivid and real but I highly doubt you’re the one person who can have in depth and unbiased memories of being 3.

I’m not saying it never happened, but I can’t reasonably accept a toddlers memory with much seriousness.

Kids may well be very distressed at that age, but no adult remembers how ignorant they were as wee babes, or what sort of reasoning they were using. The memories are always heavily influenced by time and current emotions.

Like, your example sounds less like any sort of dysphoria and everything like a normal childhood tantrum over wearing/playing what you wanted to. All children do that regardless of the preferences they throw the tantrum over.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think my point was that someone could easily read a trans history into my early childhood if they wanted to, due to the severity of the distress. It wasn't exactly normal. But in my case it turned out simply to be a sign that I rejected female stereotypes, not that I was really meant to have been born a boy.

But I do believe that trans people who remember those feelings from their early childhoods are at least remembering the distress accurately, even if they apply an adult's interpretation into why they may have felt it. None of us can go back in time and get inside of the head of who we were at 3, 4, or 5 years old.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Oh sure they’re remembering distress but imo it’s layered over with so many decades of sexism that they can’t possibly expect anyone to take them seriously when they claim to have felt like a girl since they were two.

Heaps would read trans from your normal tantrums and it’s really scary

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I still take them seriously. We should not be uncritical when it comes to early childhood memories, but I don't believe they're completely inaccurate or unreliable. And we do have evidence of children with extreme dysphoria at young ages because some were brought into clinical settings and observed. I don't think that just because a dysphoric child was never taken to a gender clinic that they are retroactively assigning dysphoria where none existed.

The feelings may have been real. But it's just important to remember that those feelings are interpreted through an adult lens. And a GC adult is going to view their childhood with a GC lens and a trans adult is going to view their childhood with a trans lens.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How much of that dysphoria is really about the child’s distress over their physical sex opposed to their personality and preferences not aligning with the gender norms they are entrenched in?

Your own childhood dysphoria as described here sounds like it was largely alleviated by being allowed to break gender norms. How many trans kids are being medically experimented on when simply being allowed to express themselves a bit more freely would have helped?

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's why I'm completely against medicalizing children. You can't know whether a child's distress is temporary or permanent. If left alone, the vast majority see their distress resolve at puberty.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes! The medicalising gender nonconformity is disturbing. Imo it’s practically a punishment for a kid being gnc.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

  • What causes children to be out of step with their peers, to the point of extreme distress about their bodies?

Mental illness. Being “out of step” or gnc is not uncommon, and most of those people are fine, healthy, and not trans. Idk if there’s trauma, or if it’s genetic, I just know it’s mental illness if it goes beyond what you’re describing about yourself and heads into trans territory. We all have pressure to conform or be a certain way, most of us reject and resent that pressure, and many of us have been able to move past it as we grow up and live how we want. Without hormones and surgeries.

  • Do you think it's related at all to the way we socialize children, particularly male children, and shove them into rigid gender boxes so that they are unable to express their true selves?

No. I know more gnc males than females. If they want to “express their true selves” they’d do it without claiming to be women or transitioning because their “true selves” are obviously not women no matter what they put on or reject. I guess I just feel like there are way too many examples of healthy and stable men who are defy the limitations put on males to accept that that’s what leads to transwomen.

  • If very feminine little boys were allowed to be very feminine and encouraged to be very feminine, allowed to have dresses and long hair, not shamed for liking toys and other things associated with girls, would fewer of them turn out to be transsexual in adulthood?

Only a few of them do turn out to be trans, though. That’s my thing- it’s such a small percentage of humans who do experience this, many boys and men Have to repress things that “aren’t masculine” and they don’t need to transition or convince themselves they are women, many boys and men are allowed to explore stereotypically feminine things and don’t turn out to be trans. I’d say most feminine males aren’t trans and most masculine females aren’t either.

  • Is shame and repression of their true natures causing those children to believe they are the other sex because they fit the other sex's stereotypes better, and thus turn against their own bodies as a result?

Why would this only happen with 1%, if this was the case? Do those children never get exposed to gnc adults of either sex? Does every person in that child’s life strictly adhere to gendered expectations, so much so that the idea of being gnc is not something they’re familiar with?

For every Blaire White or even the more extreme qt posters here, there are thousands of James Charles, Jeffree Stars, RuPauls (and other drag queens who profit off of misogyny but know they are men and “live as men” outside of work), Jay Alexanders (someone referred to as “miss Jay” but who readily acknowledges being a man), even Marsha P said he was a boy. There’s way too many gender bending, stereotype defying gnc men (and women) for me to believe that being trans is anything less than mental illness. I do wonder if there are issues or experiences that spark that mental illness, I’ve seen a lot of stories of trans people that were victims of abuse of some sort as children, but overall I think being trans is less about the rest of the world and more about their own heads.

I don’t think if we have a gender less society we’d have less trans people, it’s a mental issue. We have a society now that seems to be open to gnc, encourages it and celebrates it, and we still have trans people. Abolishing gender doesn’t abolish mental illness, and I genuinely believe being trans is more about mental illness than gender.

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I agree it's a mental illness, but my theory is that society has a hand in creating that mental illness. And I think we disagree about the extent to which gender nonconformity is accepted, especially for boys.

Do those children never get exposed to gnc adults of either sex? Does every person in that child’s life strictly adhere to gendered expectations, so much so that the idea of being gnc is not something they’re familiar with?

Quite possibly. The vast majority of little boys do not grow up with visible GNC male role models. By that I mean adult men who are free to live their lives 24/7 with a feminine expression. Not stage performers. Even for girls like me, I only saw a butch woman once, when I was 10 years old at a carnival fair. Before that, I had no idea adult women could be like me. I thought all adult women had to conform to femininity. Was this lone sighting of a butch woman the thing that prevented me from becoming trans? I have no idea, but it's possible. I know it was significant to me. But even with that woman as a bolster, I still struggled in adolescence with suicidal ideation and not wanting to live as a woman in society.

We have a society now that seems to be open to gnc, encourages it and celebrates it, and we still have trans people.

I think right now we have the opposite. Gender nonconformity is being pathologized and presented as evidence of transgenderism. Masculine women are abandoning womanhood in droves. It's alarming how fast the numbers have been skyrocketing. Feminine men still exist but seem primarily concentrated in the world of stage performance. It's still not possible for a man to grow his hair long and wear makeup and dresses and have 24/7 feminine presentation in most parts of the world without being labeled trans. Let alone possible for a little boy in a normal town or suburb. The only little boys who do so are being socially transitioned by their parents and put on a path towards lifelong medicalization.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

“And I think we disagree about the extent to which gender nonconformity is accepted, especially for boys.“

I don’t think it’s just fully or mostly accepted, what I mean is thousands or even millions of gnc people don’t transition, despite not having acceptance- so I think there’s gotta be something else that pushes the ones that do, it’s not just society’s response to gnc people, it’s also something in them. To want to transition because you struggle with societal pressures or being gnc would actually make a lot of sense- it’s the extra step of claiming to actually be something you just aren’t, it’s the insistence on gender identity for some, the discomfort with your own body, that makes me think it’s not just society, it’s also mental illness. If someone said “I want to transition because I’m very feminine and I get abused and harassed and feel outcast as a man” I think I would get that to a degree, it’s the the fact that it’s more a sense of being the opposite sex that makes me think it’s more the individual and less society.

As far as not having gnc adults around- fair enough, it is possible that many don’t have those examples growing up, but again it comes back to the dysphoria itself and the need to transition- if you get the therapy required to transition, I find it hard to believe that a therapist (especially in the past, when transition wasn’t pushed and popularized as it is now) wouldn’t point out that an man can express themselves femininely or a woman can be masculine, at some point before transitioning, I can’t believe a trans person isn’t introduced to the idea of being gnc openly, and again, I’d understand preferring transition to that, but that should be something that someone mentally healthy could articulate, and if being trans were more societal and less mental, I think we’d hear that from most or at least more trans people. I don’t disagree that society can make being gnc hard or even impossible in some places and circumstances, it’s the reasoning given (and accepted) for transition that makes me think it’s more about mental issues. If it weren’t more of a mental thing, I think we’d have more trans population. The fact is still that there are significantly more gnc people than trans, there’s probably more non op “trans” people and more “non binary” people as well. It’s rare enough to transition that to me it’s just more mental illness than a result of societal demands or expectations.

“I think right now we have the opposite. Gender nonconformity is being pathologized and presented as evidence of transgenderism.”

But that doesn’t mean that everyone being labeled as trans is actually trans. I think a few years ago we were on the track of “raise boys and girls the same” and “abolish gendered expectations”. Somehow that shifted into “they’re probably trans” but I think in actuality more people are actually just gnc and being labeled something they aren’t.

“Masculine women are abandoning womanhood in droves. It's alarming how fast the numbers have been skyrocketing. Feminine men still exist but seem primarily concentrated in the world of stage performance. It's still not possible for a man to grow his hair long and wear makeup and dresses and have 24/7 feminine presentation in most parts of the world without being labeled trans. Let alone possible for a little boy in a normal town or suburb. The only little boys who do so are being socially transitioned by their parents and put on a path towards lifelong medicalization”

I agree- that’s why I’m so against transing kids. We don’t know how those kids would develop without the influence of “your trans” being pushed. I think in some parts of the world transition is pushed because of homophobia and fear/hatred of gnc people. But I think it’s more like the labels we placed on ourselves as youths, it’s just being taken to a new extreme. Trans issues are everywhere and being discussed more than ever. And I think young people and even their parents are being influenced by the trend, but I don’t know that I think society at large is more open to someone being trans than gnc. I feel like if a less I formed parent was told that their kid could end up suicidal if they aren’t out on blockers or hormones, most parents would prefer a living trans kid to a dead kid who wasn’t allowed to “be themselves”. It comes back to the issue of anything but transition being labeled as transphobic or conversion therapy- if you’re concerned and that’s what your told, I think many parents would allow their kids to be put on blockers out of fear. I do think there’s a new societal thing of validating trans identities and trying to make sure that any potential trans person has whatever they “need” to be happy in their bodies is just accepted as necessary, but I don’t think that means that being trans is any less of a mental illness, (not being trans in and of itself, that’s more kind of a physical state- but the mental state leading up to transition) it’s just an example of the inmates running the asylum so to speak.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

To clarify because i know I was rambling a bit- I’m not saying that I don’t think society contributes to trans people- im saying that, based on the fact that there’s just more gnc people (be it publicly or privately) and non op trans/non binary people than trans people, I think that it’s a combination of mental illness and society that makes people transition or have dysphoria. And I think it’s more mental than societal. I do think society can contribute to it, even if it just contributes to the feeling of “I won’t be accepted as a man/woman”, but there’s gotta be something that separates gnc people from people who transition, and to me that something is mental illness. If it weren’t, I’d think there’d be less of the “woman/man trapped in a male/female body”, “i identify as a wo/man” or even the genuine discomfort with your visibly sexed parts, instead we’d hear more trans people discuss feeling the need to transition due to societal expectations. It’s the reason most trans people give for wanting to transition that made me give the answer I gave. If it were more societal, we’d not have the TWAW thing or the brain sex stuff or most of the ideology and refusal to acknowledge basic science from so many, and I think we’d have less issues all around between female rights and language and trans people.

Eta- more clarification: I think society can possibly exacerbate a mental illness, I don’t t hi k it’s enough to cause transition

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

thousands or even millions of gnc people don’t transition, despite not having acceptance- so I think there’s gotta be something else that pushes the ones that do, it’s not just society’s response to gnc people, it’s also something in them.

I do agree with this. I wouldn't put all the blame on society, even if society exacerbates the problem. But there is clearly something within trans people that leaves them susceptible to developing dysphoria in the first place. However, I tend to think extremely feminine male homosexuals and classic transsexuals are more alike than they are different. I think it's possible that something in the environment could cause them to "tip" from merely homosexual to transsexual. There are examples of identical twins where one is a gay man and the other is a trans woman, for example. So maybe there's something psychological at play. I'm also not opposed to the idea that biology may be responsible one way or another.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

After seeing your other post, I think biology could be related to some degree. If so many trans people had mothers with mental health issues, it could make sense that children of mentally unhealthy people are more likely to have mental health concerns, and if they had mothers with narcissistic personality disorders and bpd etc, maybe the way they were treated or things they went through as children lead them to develop a trans identity, idk if that makes sense, but it just seems to me that if you have a bpd and narcissistic mother you may very well have a pretty tough, even traumatic, childhood (if the parent isn’t treating their condition- I’m not trying to insinuate that a mother with a mental health issue can’t be a good parent). So it could be both a combo of nature and nurture, or one or the other?

As for the twins- I wonder if one of the men transitioned to be different from their sibling. They could have wanted an identity of their own, and so often twins are viewed as a set and not as individuals. I don’t know who you’re referring to so it’s hard to address without more information, but I do often hear stories of twins who struggle with finding a sense of themselves, because they’ve always been a part of a pair, if that makes sense. Again, idk the back story or who they are.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Could be. As for the twins, there are lots of examples online.

It seems like there may be something biological because identical twins both turn out to be transsexual at far higher rates than fraternal twins.

Combining data from our independent findings with those from past research, 13 of 39 male MZ twin pairs (33.3%) were found to be concordant for transsexual identity and eight of 25 (22.8%) female MZ twins were found concordant. In comparison, concordance between either male or female DZ twins was low or zero (1/38 = 2.6%).

In a report that appeared while this paper was in press, Heylens et al. (2012) reported that of 23 MZ female and male twins they reviewed, nine were concordant for gender identity disorder (GID; 39%), while none of their 21 DZ twins were concordant. The investigators concluded, “These findings suggest a role for genetic factors in the development of GID.” Their results and those reported here are quite similar.

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html

I wish they had reported how many of those twins who didn't both transition shared a sexual orientation. If transsexuality is in fact an extreme form of homosexuality, we already know there's something biological or genetic going on with that.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I do wonder if there are issues or experiences that spark that mental illness, I’ve seen a lot of stories of trans people that were victims of abuse of some sort as children, but overall I think being trans is less about the rest of the world and more about their own heads.

I feel like it is mental illness too. I just don’t know why it happens. Like if you were sexual abused as a child that’s probably important for understanding it or if you have a cluster B personality disorder. But like some of us didn’t have any of those things and we still were trans. Do you think being gender noncomforming or gay might make it more likely?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think almost everyone is gnc to some degree, but I could see a kid who is forced into boxes and also has mental health issues being more likely to see themselves as trans, especially today. I kind of don’t think being gay is though, but again I can see how someone with internalized homophobia and or possibly being surrounded by homophobic people would transition rather than be openly gay? I guess I mean I could see how being gnc and or gay could potentially lead to someone identifying as trans or having dysphoria, but I tend to think that there would be environmental factors as well as possibly mental illness, rather than it being because they were gnc/gay. But even if that’s the case, someone who’s dysphoric or wants to transition for those reasons should be perfectly capable of saying they they want to do this because they are extremely gnc and want to present as the opposite sex (not that they are or were born in the wrong body etc) or because they’d rather transition than be openly gay, does that make sense? Like, if it’s not related to mental health at all and it is largely due to gendered expectations/socialization, shouldn’t they be able to express the desire to transition as a result of those things, rather than an inner identity or discomfort with their body? I’m sure there are tons of people who at times wish they were the opposite sex or think that life would be easier if they were, but with such a small percentage of trans people, I feel it’s more internal than external.

There doesn’t always have to be trauma or abuse that sets off mental illnesses, someone could be diagnosed as mentally ill after enduring trauma, but someone else can also be diagnosed with that same mental condition that was observed over time, without something specific inciting it. So it’s not surprising that not all trans people are victims of trauma, since not all people with mental health concerns are victims of anything. And perhaps as discussed with masks on a previous post, there is in fact a hormonal/chemical thing in the brain of trans people that causes them to develop dysphoria or a “gender identity”, but that possibility makes me lean more to mental illness than anything else. I was gonna keep going but this is already long, lol. I just think there’s a lot more pointing to mental illness than anything societal, though I’m sure there are exceptions to that, especially factoring in homophobia.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like, if it’s not related to mental health at all and it is largely due to gendered expectations/socialization, shouldn’t they be able to express the desire to transition as a result of those things, rather than an inner identity or discomfort with their body?

That makes sense! I’d be surprised if there were many dysphoric people who didn’t feel like they were or meant to be the opposite sex. I feel like maybe we aren’t always the best judge of our motivations though it could be possible to believe you were actually the opposite sex, but the belief could still be motivated by something else. Maybe that’s mental illness though. I was diagnosed with gender identity disorder so I’m not saying I didn’t have mental illness, but I still like looking for other explanations for some reason because even that had to come from somewhere.

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

I think dysphoric kids get the feeling that their parents would rather have a "trans daughter" than a "sissy son", and the kids become obsessed with killing themselves figuratively (and literally in some cases) i.e. "transitioning".

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That's an interesting interpretation. Do you think that also holds true for those who were raised without any exposure to the concept of transsexuality?

I can imagine the shame of being considered a "sissy" might drive some male children to hate themselves and perhaps subconsciously want to turn into the opposite sex to gain their parents' approval.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

That could be true. I wasn't aware of transsexualism or gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder growing up, but when I came out to my parents later, my dad totally flipped his treatment of me completely to kindness, compassion and acceptance when he found out I was a transsexual person as opposed to the gay son he thought I was. It was never explicitly talked about growing up, but maybe I got all the signals on an unconscious level?

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Perhaps, and parental approval is so important to kids. Feeling like your parents don't love and accept you as you are can really do a number on someone.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The majority of children with cross-gender identification desist & identify as gay, so it's not random children, randomly wanting to be the opposite sex, it's clearly a phase in homosexual children. Once you know that, the answer to your question is fairly obvious: they are misinterpreting their attraction to members of their own sex with being the opposite sex.

What we should do regarding socialisation: you probably just have to expose children to more gay characters & gay love stories, maybe even gay family & friends. No radical restructuring of society is required.

Since the majority desist, then the real question is what is the reason the remainder do not? Nearly half of trangender people are same-sex attracted exclusively. Either homosexuals are actually trans or trans people are actually homosexuals, since it's the majority of trans people who desist & not the majority of homosexuals that do, then it's fairly obvious that these same-sex attracted transgender people are actually homosexuals who for whatever reason never grew out of their cross-identification phase.

The only way you don't come to these conclusions is if you base your outlook on exceptions rather than the majority of cases, which I don't see any justification for.

Transgender is an umbrella term that includes males, females, heterosexuals/bisexuals, homosexuals, binary & non-binary. This makes no sense, because all these groups are completely different from one another. My reply thus far has only addressed the homosexual binary ones.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

It's always interesting to see non-trans, GC perspective on things like this (part of what I like about this sub and Ovarit are the willingness to question things that most people won't anymore).

My parents were pretty lax about gender/sex roles and for the most part let me play with whoever and whatever I wanted. They didn't like me continuing to crossdress as I was getting older (going from "cute" to "weird" I guess) but my mom always tried to make it clear to me that it was OK to be gay and OK to be, in her words, "sensitive". She thought crossdressing in adults was weird and sick, though, and my dad is a probable closeted bi or gay man who was homophobic, but he wasn't really around a lot and mostly acted indifferent towards me.

And again, in my case I believed I was a girl early on for years and saw myself growing up to be a woman, and everything in society discouraged that kind of thinking, which was especially noticeable to me later in elementary school and in middle school. I was trying very hard not to be different and wanted to be normal and "good", but the feelings and same self-image remained.

Honestly, if I'd grown up in a world of total gender abolition, my behavior and self image probably would have remained the same, but the way I would have described them or think of them now would likely have not. If it hadn't been so taboo, I probably wouldn't have tried to hide so much or felt so much shame, so I would probably be more expressive (however that would manifest) now because I would have been open about it in childhood and adolescence. To address the physical feelings of discomfort with my sex organs, I probably would have felt like surgery was the only option as I did now, but if better options or better treatment had been available, I would have tried that. I don't think that society's attitude one way or another would in anyway affect the physical feelings of "wrongness" I had towards my genitalia.

Shame and repression probably doesn't foster or encourage transsexualism in any way other than guiding behavior to living or presenting in stereotyped sex roles as woman or man, but that's changing quite a bit now with how the criteria for experiencing gender dysphoria is expanding to include non-transsexual experiences. The shame and repression probably leads to some kind of serious dysfunction though as adults, speaking from my own experience at least--maybe not everyone grows up with dysfunction from that.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Hey, thanks for sharing. I find your story interesting because it is pretty much the classic transsexual story. You always had that sense of wrongness about your body. So it's interesting to think about if or how the environment may have unwittingly cultivated that dysphoria.

They didn't like me continuing to crossdress as I was getting older (going from "cute" to "weird" I guess) but my mom always tried to make it clear to me that it was OK to be gay and OK to be, in her words, "sensitive". She thought crossdressing in adults was weird and sick, though, and my dad is a probable closeted bi or gay man who was homophobic

I wonder if this is the kind of thing that may tip the scales. Let's imagine you had been totally free to express how you wanted, and there had been examples of adult men in your life who had long hair and wore dresses, and they acted in the same social role as the moms you saw and admired. If you had had that example, might you not have wanted to be like them, rather than like the adult men you did see, including your disapproving father?

I hesitate to compare the natal male and natal female experience, because I believe it is honestly quite different, but speaking as someone who was very male identified as a young child, I don't know what prevented me from developing discomfort with my body. Maybe it's because female anatomy is more hidden. But I can completely relate to your story in terms of idolizing the opposite sex parent. I did not want to be like my mother or live my mother's life. I wanted to be like my father and grandfather. I wanted to be like all the male heroes I saw in popular culture.

But I never had a sense of wrongness in my body. I think it could have developed if I had been encouraged in that direction, but since I grew up in a small town before the trans boom, I wasn't encouraged. I did have distress, anger, and turmoil as I got older, but it was directed outwardly at society, not at my own body. I may have wanted to transition or have wanted to die rather than live as female, but it wasn't because I felt that my body was wrong. It was because I felt like society had no place for me and society hated women to such an extent that I didn't want to be part of the female sex class anymore.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm happy to share, even if it isn't particularly fun--thank you for listening, and for asking these thoughtful questions. I think the mixture of so many things (including but not limited to social experiences, physiology and biological abnormalities, parental influence, sexual abuse) are likely to have cultivated early cross-sex identification that persisted.

I wonder if this is the kind of thing that may tip the scales. Let's imagine you had been totally free to express how you wanted, and there had been examples of adult men in your life who had long hair and wore dresses, and they acted in the same social role as the moms you saw and admired. If you had had that example, might you not have wanted to be like them, rather than like the adult men you did see, including your disapproving father?

That's a really good question! If I was exposed to that early on, maybe I would have thought of myself as a boy and seen myself growing up to be a man like them...maybe. But I've always been very close to my mom and however she was was how I saw myself, so maybe I would have still seen myself as a girl who was growing up to be a woman. I think all the years before puberty were most crucial, and if a child's identity starts and stays a certain way all the way up until then, then it's probably unalterable. I'm really not sure of a good answer, I wish I could because that's a really interesting thought. I will say that I never hated men or felt like I didn't want to be like my dad, it just never entered my mind that I would grow up to be like him or any man.

It's hard to entertain the thought maybe if you've never experienced the sensation, but if you had had physical sex dysphoria in addition to everything else, and it persisted, do you think you would have grown up transsexual? I'm glad you didn't grow up with that sense of wrongness, and I think that really could have been the deciding factor on whether you would have transitioned.

You don't have to answer obviously, but I'm curious to know when you started identifying as a male, when you stopped and what made you stop. Was the environment you grew up in somewhat permissive for you to express your masculine behavior and identity?

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've missed having these types of conversations. Since our Reddit debate sub was banned, it's been kind of hit or miss here. I'm glad you and u/Taln_Reich have arrived because you both seem interesting and thoughtful, and we desperately need more QT posters so we can actually have debates.

I think all the years before puberty were most crucial, and if a child's identity starts and stays a certain way all the way up until then, then it's probably unalterable.

I believe puberty is the deciding point. If distress and cross-sex identification does not resolve after puberty, it seems like most medical professionals agree it's probably not going anywhere. But I think it's possible to have a little boy be entirely convinced he's a girl only to have puberty reveal to him that he's actually a gay man.

I will say that I never hated men or felt like I didn't want to be like my dad, it just never entered my mind that I would grow up to be like him or any man.

Along the same lines, I certainly never hated my mom. She was a good mom. Although I think at a young age I was aware that I was not a "normal" daughter, and I remember feeling relieved when my little sister was born that my mom would have a daughter she could relate to. My main feeling about my mom is that I could not see myself as being like her. Even though her life seemed fine and my dad treated her well, I wanted my dad's role, not my mom's role.

It's hard to entertain the thought maybe if you've never experienced the sensation, but if you had had physical sex dysphoria in addition to everything else, and it persisted, do you think you would have grown up transsexual?

It's hard to say. It would depend on how severe the dysphoria was. If it was mild, then probably not. If it was severe, then maybe. I don't like the idea of hormones and surgeries in particular because I know they are dangerous. I also don't like pain, and the idea of becoming a permanent medical patient is extremely unappealing. On the other hand, I believe it would not have taken much to convince me in that direction if it had been presented as positive or inevitable.

You don't have to answer obviously, but I'm curious to know when you started identifying as a male, when you stopped and what made you stop. Was the environment you grew up in somewhat permissive for you to express your masculine behavior and identity?

No worries. I'm an open book, so you can ask anything and I'll answer. When I say "male-identified," I mean I saw myself as similar to males and desiring to live out the male social role. I did not feel like a girl or see myself as a "normal" girl. I never stopped in the sense that neither of those things has changed. But at the same time, I was not a child who went around proclaiming that I actually was a boy. I knew that I wasn't. I knew I had a female body. My family was pretty open about nudity, so I knew the difference between penises and vaginas and I never had any distress about what I had down there. I just knew my body made me a girl.

I'd say my environment was permissive and allowed me to "live as a boy" before puberty with no social consequences. I was a happy kid. I was never the center of attention, but I was well liked and had friends. I was not targeted by bullies before puberty. My male peers accepted me as one of them. I physically passed as a boy, so strangers who saw me assumed I was male. Of course not everything was identical. I wasn't allowed in Boy Scouts. I wasn't allowed on the town football team. But for the most part I had no complaints about my "boyhood" in my small town. It was a safe place for me to grow up. I think what hurt me was the lack of GNC female role models and the fact that extremely GNC tomboys are only tolerated up to a certain age. It was when I stopped being able to fully pass as a boy that my social troubles began.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I heard a lot of good things about the reddit debate sub from both trans(truscum) and GC people, they were like "go check out the one on saidit"! I mostly came just to pitch our group, but I like being able to talk to non-trans people with a GC perspective, which for as much as I like Ovarit, it doesn't really feel like that's a space for these kinds of interactions and conversations. It looks pretty quiet here from the QT side of things, but I've liked reading peakingatthemoment's posts/comments too. I'll keep saying good things where I can (at least until I'm banned for it lol)!

I err to agree with you about puberty, almost every medical paper or case study I've read indicates puberty playing a crucial role in either the development, persistance or desistance of gender dysphoria in people who experience it. And you're right, I don't have any sources pulled up to share, but time and again medical professionals or GD experts/authorities believe that persistence into adulthood is the near guarantee that the dysphoria is likely permanent. It kind of seems to go like this (correct me if I'm wrong): early onset/childhood GD persisting up until puberty starts likely will desist or cure itself at puberty, but if it continues past the start it's almost assuredly permanent; in later onset GD, it will start during puberty, and likely desist by the time the brain is fully developed (age 25-ish I think), but otherwise will be permanent beyond if it persists beyond that. I think Zucker and others have said something like most children with GD will grow up to become gay, non-transsexual young adults.

It's hard to say. It would depend on how severe the dysphoria was. If it was mild, then probably not. If it was severe, then maybe. I don't like the idea of hormones and surgeries in particular because I know they are dangerous. I also don't like pain, and the idea of becoming a permanent medical patient is extremely unappealing. On the other hand, I believe it would not have taken much to convince me in that direction if it had been presented as positive or inevitable.

I think that's pretty astute and logical, and having experienced it I feel the same--if the physical sensation had been something mild, or just milder enough to be tolerable, I don't think I would have transitioned, I would have probably tried to make peace with being a gnc man who was perceived as a woman, without the legal changes or surgical changes. I think my self image and self conception would probably have always stayed the same, and I would have felt fake on one hand if I tried repressing anything just like I had before did and felt. I would probably still look and act the same, but I would be just shy of actually calling myself a woman in public. It's hard to conceptualize!

It sounds like you were able to find enough solace in yourself by just being GNC as your birth sex, which is awesome and actually really inspiring, because I do wish more kids could just be OK with being GNC as their birth sex without transitioning. Like you, I would have liked to have some kind of positive GNC adult male role model to look up to. Someone else brought up bullying, and I almost made a new thread about it but decided to talk about it here: I believe that bullying can play a huge role in the outcome of gender dysphoria, and it likely did for me. Thinking about it, if I had never, ever been bullied nor bullied so much for my GNC behavior growing up and felt it was safe to be able to be seen as a boy who looks and acts like a girl, then I might have grown up without the need to feel like I needed to transition legally at least and fully assimilate in society's eyes as a woman. Some of the bullying I experienced could be considered sexual assault, and though my genital dysphoria preceded that by quite a bit, I'm sure it only worsened my bad feelings and distress. If that stuff hadn't happened, maybe I could have made some kind of peace with my physical discomfort without undergoing surgery--it's hard to say, though.

If you don't mind my asking, did you experience much resistance or bullying from your peers or adults when you were growing up? It sounds like you had a lot of acceptance in a lot of ways, but I don't want to make an assumption. Especially as you say that your social troubles began once you reached a certain age.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

almost every medical paper or case study I've read indicates puberty playing a crucial role in either the development, persistance or desistance of gender dysphoria in people who experience it. And you're right, I don't have any sources pulled up to share, but time and again medical professionals or GD experts/authorities believe that persistence into adulthood is the near guarantee that the dysphoria is likely permanent. It kind of seems to go like this (correct me if I'm wrong): early onset/childhood GD persisting up until puberty starts likely will desist or cure itself at puberty, but if it continues past the start it's almost assuredly permanent; in later onset GD, it will start during puberty, and likely desist by the time the brain is fully developed (age 25-ish I think), but otherwise will be permanent beyond if it persists beyond that. I think Zucker and others have said something like most children with GD will grow up to become gay, non-transsexual young adults.

Please be aware that nearly everything known about childhood-onset GD has been based on looking at males and is applicable to males with childhood-onset GD only. It might be applicable to females as well, but we really don't know coz female children with GD have traditionally been much rarer and they've not been studied as extensively as males have. In fact, female children with GD have been pretty much ignored.

Moreover, the relationship between puberty and GD varies a great deal depending on sex.

Even in males I don't think it's been found that "early onset/childhood GD persisting up until puberty likely will desist or cure itself at puberty" - I think what's been found is that childhood-onset GD usually resolves in boys during puberty and disappears by the end of puberty. It's a gradual process.

The idea that desistance of childhood-onset GD in boys occurs at puberty sets up parents, clinicians and boys themselves to believe that if a boy doesn't get over his GD as soon as he enters puberty, then he'll always have GD and is therefore probably "trans." Male puberty is actually a multi-year process that unfolds in stages, and there's a lot of individual variation in when it starts and at what pace and ages it progresses.

What we know about GD that develops during puberty or adolescence far is that females who develop GD during or after puberty are the ones who end up desisting by the time their brains fully develop. However, this is not true of males. Regardless of their sexual orientation, boys who develop GD in puberty all have autogynephilia. Unless males who develop AGP choose to try to deal with it head-on and not let it take over their lives, AGP tends to get worse - not better - with age.

https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Remember, puberty in boys starts later than in girls, and puberty in the two sexes unfolds in different ways/at different rates and involves very different experiences. Girls, for example, generally start puberty two years earlier than boys, and they have their pubertal growth spurt at the start of puberty - whereas for males the pubertal growth spurt occurs at the tail end of puberty, sometimes after puberty is over. Moreover, many males don't begin developing beefed up, visibly masculinized physiques until their late teens or 20s, or even later. Lots of males still have very skinny, slight bodies they consider "feminine" looking throughout their teens and well into their 20s. They only start changing body shape and looking like men markedly much later.

Many of the girls who today are developing GD in adolescence and early adulthood are often referred to as having puberty-onset GD, but in fact many - I suspect a majority - are actually post puberty when they develop it. Yes some girls develop GD as soon as they get their first period or they begin developing breasts. But many others seem to develop GD only after they've been menstruating and have had breasts and other secondary sex characteristics for several years. It seems GD in many girls and young women comes after living in a post-pubescent female body for at least a few years and getting a taste of what it's like to go through life as a woman in a sexist, misogynistic world where women are treated as sex objects and second class citizens, then when we're too old to be considered "fuckable" we're vilified as "Karens" and crones.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like Ovarit a lot, but many of the women there are more hardcore GC than I am. I consider myself more of a moderate, but sometimes it's hard to strike a balance. I try to inject moderation where and when I can. Do you use a different name there? I don't think I've seen your Fleurista user name.

I'll keep saying good things where I can (at least until I'm banned for it lol)!

Ha, don't worry. The mods here are not ban happy. Unless you do something really crazy, you shouldn't be banned.

It kind of seems to go like this (correct me if I'm wrong): early onset/childhood GD persisting up until puberty starts likely will desist or cure itself at puberty, but if it continues past the start it's almost assuredly permanent; in later onset GD, it will start during puberty, and likely desist by the time the brain is fully developed (age 25-ish I think), but otherwise will be permanent beyond if it persists beyond that.

Seems like it, although things are happening right now in the natal female population that do not fit known historic models. We're seeing women in their 20s, 30s, or even 40s transitioning out of nowhere, with no history of dysphoria. I firmly believe this is social contagion. But otherwise, I do believe the actual transsexual population is still operating much as it always has.

I would probably still look and act the same, but I would be just shy of actually calling myself a woman in public. It's hard to conceptualize!

This is one of the things that leaves GNC men and boys in such a bad spot. There's really no option for basically living and presenting as a woman without calling yourself a woman. Whereas for GNC women, that's not the case. We can wear men's clothes and have men's haircuts and people don't look at us as freaks, for the most part. I'm fairly well accepted and employed in a conservative city in a conservative state. That could never happen if I were a GNC male wearing dresses and makeup. My small town childhood would have been entirely different if I'd been born a GNC boy.

If you don't mind my asking, did you experience much resistance or bullying from your peers or adults when you were growing up? It sounds like you had a lot of acceptance in a lot of ways, but I don't want to make an assumption. Especially as you say that your social troubles began once you reached a certain age.

I was never bullied as a young child. So up until the age of 11, things were fine. My grandma didn't particularly like me being masculine, but she didn't bully me over it. My grandfather and my parents and my brother and sister and all my male peers were fully accepting. Now as I got into middle school, things changed. For the first time, I had to go into the locker room with other girls. They would call me homophobic slurs and generally give me a hard time. Nothing physical, just verbal.

Then as I got older and it became more obvious I was female, I got occasional slurs from other people as well, including the general public. Lots of whispers and stares. But I was never physically threatened. The worst thing that happened was that a bunch of drunk guys in a parking lot yelled "what the fuck is that" at me as I passed by. They looked like they might have wanted to start something, but didn't. If that's the worst thing that ever happens, I count myself very lucky.

None of this stuff bothered me that much. It was more a sense of alienation that I felt. It seemed like society had no place for me. Aside from my one lone sighting of a butch woman at a carnival, I had no role models. I had no image of what I could be. My future was just a big blank. I could not see myself growing up to be a woman. I also knew I wasn't a lesbian, so that just left me feeling like a complete freak of nature. If I was supposed to be a straight girl, why was I so different from all the others? I firmly believed I would live and die alone, that no one would never want to touch me or be with me. That also lead to suicidal ideation. Like I didn't belong on this Earth, so I might as well just join the army and die heroically in combat because life as a freak wasn't going to be worth living.

I did get over that, thank God. I went to college instead of the army and met my partner and found GC thought which gave me a sense of acceptance about my birth sex. But I can easily see how things might have gone the other way for me. I still struggle with not wanting to be female because of the horrible stereotypes associated with womanhood. But I refuse to let misogyny defeat me. I feel like I have a responsibility to the younger generation to be a visible GNC woman.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (17 children)

I think trans people would still exist even in a “gender less” society. I just don’t believe that rigid gender expectations made me hate my genitals or the rest of my body.

That being said I was extremely pressured to be masculine and fit the male ideal by my parents. I just don’t think this contributed to body dysphoria.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

But how could it not have some effect?

I just wonder if GNC little boys were allowed to be completely free and in fact encouraged to be feminine and provided with GNC adult male role models in a loving and affirming society, if fewer of them would develop crippling dysphoria.

I don't see how society wouldn't bear some responsibility. Natal male transsexuals greatly outnumber natal female ones, and I think it may be due to society's rigidity. It's also possible it's caused by some other biological difference in males, of course. Maybe it's possible for children to be "born wrong," but it just seems more unlikely to me. What would cause the brain to target the genitals alone, when in fact there are other sexed body parts that are more hidden?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I just don’t think body dysphoria is socially caused. Maybe social dysphoria could be but I don’t think it effects the body image that way.

I mean everyone should be encouraged to express themselves and act how they wish without regard to gendered expectations. I agree. I just don’t think the lack of that is causing body dysphoria.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

That's fair enough. It's just so hard to untangle because no one has the experience of being raised outside gender.

And we do know that dysphoria can develop later in life based on social experiences. If that can happen to teens and adults, why would very young children be immune?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I am separating body and social dysphoria here. I presume that is possible that social dysphoria could come from social experiences in children as well but I don’t see how rationally body dysphoria can come from social pressure to be masculine. ( in trans women anyway I don’t claim to have any particular insight for trans men)

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don’t see how rationally body dysphoria can come from social pressure to be masculine.

Wouldn’t it just be like feeling pressure to be masculine, but realizing that your not, then realizing if you weren’t a boy physically, you wouldn’t be being pushed to be masculine, then hating the parts of your body that make you a boy. I don’t know if this actually happens, but it seems very easy to me to connect the two.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It just doesn’t feel accurate to me. We live in a society that praises and encourages masculinity. If anything society would be encouraging you to like male attributes more.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I guess I feel like femininity or masculinity isn’t always a choice. Maybe you don’t believe that and I think we’ve talked about it before. So like, in my thinking, it doesn’t matter how much society praises masculinity, if that’s just not how you are made, you aren’t going to be able to fit.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t disagree. My point is to if society tells you masculinity is good and femininity is bad you would start hating femininity if it was effecting you not your body. That’s why I don’t think it’s something being socially shaped.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like different people might deal with it differently.

Personally, I don’t think I could have hated femininity because it felt like a part of me and I liked how I was. I don’t think that means that liking my femininity made me hate my body, but it feels easier to hate your body than yourself, if that makes sense. I like myself (still do).

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure. I think it's possible. Let's say I hated being a girl, that I loved and admired everything about masculinity. That I wanted so much to be exactly like my male heroes. And then that I learned that men had penises, something that I as a girl lacked. I could see men being praised and respected while women were seen as weak and emotional. A situation like that could lead to penis envy, because that would make me a "real man," and that in turn could lead to hatred of my vagina or breasts.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Humans have always suffered from unhappiness, anxieties, obsessions, depression, discomforts and other forms of psychic distress and have had delusions, fancies and rich fantasy lives. However, the ways these manifest have always been shaped by the particular culture and historical period in which individuals grow up and spend their lives.

I think "body dysphoria," "gender dysphoria" and all the other forms of mental distress that are so heavily focused on one's physical appearance today would not have emerged in the specific forms in which they've arisen were it not for social forces like sexism, sex stereotypes, misogyny and homophobia - and were it not for all the myriad changes to the material world in which we live that have taken place over the last few centuries.

Such as the invention of flat looking glasses over the course of the 15th-17th centuries and very their gradual spread to become grooming devices for the masses; the invention of full-length glass grooming mirrors in the early 19th century and their spread to upper-middle class homes in the West by the end of the century (which is when anorexia first emerged); indoor plumbing and the invention and spread of the modern chambers for intimate bodily care we now call "bathrooms;" the advent and spread of central heating and electric lighting; growing wealth that led more and more people to live in homes with multiple rooms that allowed for solitude and increasing bodily privacy; the spread since the 17th century of the custom of bathing and unclothed bathing, which gradually became more frequent over time and finally resulted in the habit of daily bathing/showering and doing so naked; the new custom of dressing alone, rather than in the presence and with the help of servants and/or family, a custom that was made possible by major changes in attire, particularly for women, in the early 20th and new inventions like the zipper and emancipation underwear... and so on.

Also, of course, the advent and spread of photography; the invention of new technologies that allowed for the replication and mass spread of photos and drawings and new media like illustrated periodicals and fashion magazines; modern advertising; moving pictures, television, easy to use and affordable still cameras; video, home video players, affordable home video cameras; home computers; the internet; digital photography cameras making film and film processing obsolete; broadband, wifi, changes in computer technology that allowed for the transmission of large video files via the internet, and improvements in screens that allowed for them to be easily viewed on internet devices; selfies, social media, photoshop and filters; the normalization of wearing what used to be considered heavy stage makeup in everyday IRL settings; isolation, solitude, internet porn; growing up online, kids having excess leisure time (coz after-school jobs are now much rarer than in the past, as are the domestic chores/responsibilities that kids and teens are expected to take on); kids and young people increasingly spending much of their leisure time alone with only smart-device screens, their mirrors and doctored images for company ... etc.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

That’s pretty presumptive at least toward the end. Gender variance has been present and even trans people present well before the internet.

The first bottom surgery was conducted in the 1930’s and gender variant identities such as the Hijra have records going back millennia.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There's a difference between when specific expressions/manifestations of human distress first arose/emerged, and when they became more widespread and popular.

In my second and third paragraph I clearly said I was describing some of the material conditions that led to the emergence of appearance-focused mental health problems such as "gender identity disorder" and "gender dysphoria" - and these same changes in material culture have caused other mirror-based mental illnesses such as anorexia and body dysmorphic disorder to emerge as well. The changing material conditions in which we live affect us all, BTW, coz it's pretty hard to grow up and live in a world full of looking glasses, pictorial imagery that's often highly sexualized without becoming hyper-aware of one's appearance and without developing some discomfort and distress about aspects of our looks. Just as it's pretty impossible to inhabit a human body over time and not experience any distress over how one's body functions, feels, behaves and performs.

Distress over our bodies is not something that's unique to persons with "gender dysphoria" or other diagnosed mental health issues. Most people who've suffered serious illnesses or any form of disability or physical incapacity even temporarily have experienced distress and dissatisfaction over our bodies. Most girls experience deep distress over our bodies from the first time we first menstruate, which usually happens at circa age 11, and from the age when men first catcall us, masturbate at us or molest us - which often happens before age 11. Nearly every female person would most likely be found to have some degree of body distress and body dysmorphia if clinically assessed.

At the end of my third paragraph I was describing some of the changes in the material conditions of everyday life that make growing up and coming of age today very different from what it was even a few decades ago. I did not say "gender variance" only became present with the internet, nor did I suggest such a thing. And as someone who came of age long before the internet, when "gender variance" was so common as to be the norm, I'd never consider saying such a thing. People who have grown up and come of age in the internet era actually are much more "gender conforming" and into sex stereotypes than they/we were in the 1960s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

The fact that the certain cultures in South Asia, East Asia and the Pacific Islands long have had a separate stigmatizing social caste for male homosexuals is entirely separate to the phenomenon of male "transsexualism" that first arose in European culture 100 years ago.

Male transsexualism in the West - which as you yourself first was treated medically less than 90 years ago - is entirely dependent on the changes in material culture I've described in my third paragraph and the first part of the fourth.

We are all shaped by the families, cultures and societies in which we grew up and we now live - and the material conditions, ideologies and social norms of any particular culture/society tends to change over time, and the changes that have occurred especially in Western culture over the past couple of centuries are especially large and fast-paced. Sorry this doesn't sit well with you, but it's true.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Of course we are shaped by our material world, but you are wildly speculating that causal relationship with gender dysphoria. You don’t need a mirror to look down.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But only males can see their genitals when looking down, LOL! Girls and women can only see our mons pubis when looking down (prior to when we develop pubic hair, that is). But to see our genitals, girls and women definitely need a mirror or a camera.

More to the point, having distress over one's genitals is not required to get a clinical diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" or to be "trans" for either sex. And today, most males with gender dysphoria and an opposite sex "gender identity" do not dislike their genitals. Which is why hardly any get or desire genital surgeries. And why so many males who claim to have "gender dysphoria" and to be trans so frequently boast about the wonders of "lady dick" and "girl cock" and tell women to suck or choke on theirs.

Males with "gender dysphoria" nowadays are far, far more likely to get beard electrolysis, facial surgeries and procedures, dental procedures, silicone orbs implanted in their chests, hair transplants, procedures to lower their hairlines and so on than to have any genital surgeries.

Also, it wasn't just mirrors I was talking about - it's historical changes like indoor plumbing, electric lighting, central heating, the modern bathroom, and the relatively recently-developed custom of daily bathing/showering, and bathing/showering while naked and in solitude; and people increasingly living in homes where solitude and bodily privacy are possible, and having lives that allow for considerable amounts of time to be spent alone...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is getting nowhere. You have no proof of any kind that any of that is required or contributory to dysphoria. You also have no statistical basis your claims about the relative commonality of transition procedures. You are obviously just making things up here and it’s very transparent.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Obligatory, I didn’t make it all the way to adulthood before transitioning so I don’t know if my feelings would have been the same then, but I feel like I can still try to answer this.

I feel like I can’t know for certain how I have been of the world or my environment had been different, but I like to think that maybe my childhood would have been easier if I was in a world where how I was was fine. Maybe I wouldn’t have had to leave school or I wouldn’t have become so unhappy. I know I wouldn’t have been bullied like I was. Sometimes people say that sex dysphoria that is totally separate from any gender stuff, but if you were actually a gender nonconforming child, I don’t think you can say that and be honest. I know I wouldn’t be being honest. I liked how I was (still do) and maybe if that had been accepted in the boy package everything could have been different. We are taught gender at such a young age before our memories even really begin so we might feel mismatched about it in some of our earliest memories. I feel like it can’t be totally unrelated. How could my brain be wired from birth to hate having a penis? Maybe this was always how I would be, but I wish I could actually know instead of wonder.

Also, how does homosexuality relate to it all? Whatever makes boys naturally feminine has something with that, but being gay doesn’t make you trans. Maybe it magnifies those feelings though?

I don’t know if I would have become a transsexual if things had been different, but I like to think that maybe there was another possible life, even if it’s a little difficult to imagine what it would have been like. I hope that we can make things better for future kids, but I feel like it is moving in the wrong direction. Occasionally, I dream about being like a social worker to a boy like I was and being able to tell him that there isn’t anything wrong with him. Those dreams can be intensely emotional for me and I so much want that boy to feel better.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Thanks for sharing. I think you would certainly count as early onset, even if you didn't wait until legal adulthood to begin your transition. Out of curiosity, you might have told me before, but I'm awful at remembering people's stories. Did you go through therapy to try to help you reconcile to your biological sex?

It's frustrating that it's impossible to know some of these answers. I feel like gender nonconformity and homosexuality are intertwined with this issue in a big way, especially in natal males, but I wonder what tips the scales. There are examples of identical twins where one is a gay man and the other is a trans woman. How does that happen? Is there something about their life experiences that caused one twin to believe he was more than just homosexual, or was there something in the womb that tilted the twin in that direction, such an influx of hormones? Can a baby really be "born wrong" in that way?

Occasionally, I dream about being like a social worker to a boy like I was and being able to tell him that there isn’t anything wrong with him. Those dreams can be intensely emotional for me and I so much want that boy to feel better.

I can relate. I look at GNC little girls, and I want better for them than what I had. I certainly want better for them than what society is teaching them now. It makes me upset to think about. It's unfair that children are distressed and that society, in my opinion, is currently magnifying and encouraging that distress.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Thanks for your reply!

Did you go through therapy to try to help you reconcile to your biological sex?

Yes, it wasn’t the best though. The therapists I saw were Christian and more focused on my homosexuality as the issue. They believed that I had failed to identify with other boys properly and that supposed to be the root of cross-gender feelings and behaviors (I think they blamed my mother too). Weirdly, it started before I actually had sexual feelings towards boys, but everyone knew I was or would be (and they were right). I won’t go into too much detail, but it didn’t help and just made me resent my parents a lot. There was some better therapy years later, but, by that point, I don’t think there was much chance I would have seen it differently. When parents push you sometimes it just makes you less open and defiant especially if it felt like they were hurting you.

How does that happen? Is there something about their life experiences that caused one twin to believe he was more than just homosexual, or was there something in the womb that tilted the twin in that direction, such an influx of hormones? Can a baby really be "born wrong" in that way?

There are so many question I feel like it’s really hard to have answers to. I have a hard time believing it’s all just how we are born, but some it probably is (sexual orientation for instance, maybe other things). I feel like if ever fully understand homosexuality in males it will help explain at least some male transsexuals. I don’t think it’s a type of homosexuality exactly, but I can’t imagine the trans part existing if we weren’t gay first. Early onset females seem way more complicated to me, lol.

It makes me upset to think about. It's unfair that children are distressed and that society, in my opinion, is currently magnifying and encouraging that distress.

Me too. This is such a hard time to grow up. All the messages are so inescapable in a way that’s worse than before I feel like.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Feel free not to answer if it's too personal, but what age were you when you started your medical transition? Were you allowed to access hormones or medical procedures without getting other therapies?

It seems like many natal female adolescents who have dysphoria typically see that resolve in their late teens. All of the Pique Resilience Project members started identifying as trans at 15 or 16 and stopped at 19.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxVmSGTgNxI

Interesting video, if you haven't seen it. But I don't know that this experience is matched by natal male transitioners, especially those with early onset dysphoria. Do you think that maybe something like CBT might have helped you resolve your dysphoria, or do you think it was already too entrenched by your late adolescence to respond to any attempt at treatment?

I don’t think it’s a type of homosexuality exactly, but I can’t imagine the trans part existing if we weren’t gay first.

I think it might be an extreme form of male homosexuality, maybe? Like some men are so feminine that they wish to adopt everything about the female body and social role. Why exactly homosexuality and gender nonconformity are correlated is still a mystery to me, though. I think there's something biological going on. Scientists can change the sexual orientation and gendered behavior of mice by messing with their hormones.

Early onset females seem way more complicated to me, lol.

Agreed. Females are very different. Not least of which is the fact that significant numbers of early onset girls do not grow up to be lesbians vs. the overwhelming majority of early onset boys growing up to be gay men.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Feel free not to answer if it's too personal, but what age were you when you started your medical transition? Were you allowed to access hormones or medical procedures without getting other therapies?

I don’t mind answering I guess. I started medical transition when I was 16.

There was lot of therapy. I only mentioned the therapy before that was specifically trying to make me okay with my sex. My parents eventually took me someone who was part of HBIDGA (later WPATH) and I saw him for a long time before anything medical happened. Even that wasn’t like all affirmation though, at least at first, whereas I think it would be now. It wouldn’t have been allowed if my parents hadn’t consented to it too.

I’ve seen some of the Pique Resilience Project stuff and I like them. Thanks for sharing!

Do you think that maybe something like CBT might have helped you resolve your dysphoria, or do you think it was already too entrenched by your late adolescence to respond to any attempt at treatment?

Maybe? I think by late adolescence it was way too late. Maybe it could have helped when I was younger. I feel like my parents tried to “help” when I was younger, but pushed me to feel like I they were trying to erase everything about me and it just made me put up walls. I think sometimes parents can make things worse by trying to be too controlling and the child feels under attack. This is something I’m going to try to do better than my parents did. I guess I feel like because of how they started trying to “help” me, it meant that I would never be able to trust enough (at that time in my life at least) to really have any chance of something like CBT working.

I think it might be an extreme form of male homosexuality, maybe?

Maybe, I feel like it’s very related for some of us. That’s why I put HSTS in my flair because I feel like it helps it make sense even if I would agree with all Blanchard things. Most trans males are straight or bi though so it’s only useful for some of us.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for answering. It sounds like you did get proper therapy. Obviously this was prior to "affirmation only" being presented as the only valid option.

I feel like my parents tried to “help” when I was younger, but pushed me to feel like I they were trying to erase everything about me and it just made me put up walls.

Again, feel free not to answer if this is too personal, but did your parents bring you to therapy because they wanted to cure your gender nonconformity or latent homosexuality, or was it because you were showing distress in other areas of life?

Most trans males are straight or bi though so it’s only useful for some of us.

True. I don't really agree with Blanchard either, but I think the HSTS designation is useful. AGP is a whole other can of worms.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Again, feel free not to answer if this is too personal, but did your parents bring you to therapy because they wanted to cure your gender nonconformity or latent homosexuality, or was it because you were showing distress in other areas of life?

My parents brought me because of the gender dysphoria/gender non-conformity. I was in school until the second grade, but had to stop going (home schooled until later) because of the difficulties from that as a boy. I don’t really like talking about it that much, but, for the people I saw at first, it was about correcting my latent homosexuality (even though they didn’t say that, it was like about forming competitive friendships with boys and being what god wanted you to be).

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't blame you for not wanting to talk about it. It's depressing that GNC children are not allowed to simply exist as they are. You should have been accepted at that age, not brought to a therapist to try to change your nature for religious reasons. How creepy that adults are even concerned about a second grader's eventual sexual orientation.

I hope in the future there are fewer situations like that. We can't change the past, but we can work on making things better for GNC kids to come.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

If very feminine little boys were allowed to be very feminine and encouraged to be very feminine, allowed to have dresses and long hair, not shamed for liking toys and other things associated with girls, would fewer of them turn out to be transsexual in adulthood?

Can you explain further what you mean by "feminine" here rather than just "dresses and long hair" and "toys" and "things"?

I find that beyond a liking for dresses, long hair and objects that they and some others consider "girly," most males who call themselves "feminine" and are described by many others (without much thought) as "feminine" actually have very little in common with female people in their behaviors, attitudes, sense of self, level of self-regard and social entitlement. Coz being males, they were not raised as girls and subject to female socialization.

"Feminine" in the case of these male persons usually just seems to mean "not typically or overtly masculine" or "fails to conform in all ways to the most rigid and extreme sex stereotypes of masculinity" in whatever way a particular culture, family or individual defines "masculine."

But not being conventionally masculine is not the same as being like a girl or woman, or having qualities and behaviors typical of female people. Yes, some male persons who get called "feminine" might have aspects of their appearance that looks somewhat like female people's - but this usually does not extend to their personalities and behaviors except when "feminine" is defined in the most superficially sexist and, to me, offensive and inaccurate ways (for example, showing a tendency for giggling, acting coquettish, being catty, not wanting to participate in contact sports, having a penchant for neatness and cleanliness, being squeamish, crying easily, being manipulative).

With a few notable exceptions, the males I've encountered IRL and online who claim to be a woman, or want to be women (or in most cases who want to be "girls"), do not strike me as self-effacing and self-sacrificing types who are always focused on taking care of others, putting other people's feelings first, being kind, swallowing their anger and shutting up and taking their lumps without complaint the way girls customarily are raised to be and to do. On the contrary, again with some exceptions, most of these males come across to me as behaving in ways that are totally opposite. The males I have encountered who say they are trans have tended to be self-centered, extremely concerned with appearances, histrionic, vain, competitive, envious, covetous, demanding, moody, colorful, theatrical, quick to take offense/umbrage and rather loud in making their needs and wishes known. Which to me is about as far from "feminine" as you can get.

Is shame and repression of their true natures causing those children to believe they are the other sex because they fit the other sex's stereotypes better, and thus turn against their own bodies as a result?

First of all, I don't agree that anyone's "true nature" is being "feminine" in the way you've portrayed it - which is to say, wearing dresses, having long hair, liking certain toys and things that are "girly," which in this day and age presumably means pink, plastic and glittery.

I'm sure shame and repression are factors in a lot of cases - but that's also true for most of us whatever our own issues and hangups may be. People with "gender dysphoria" are far from the only ones who experience shame and repression in childhood. Being raised as a human child in human society involves repression by definition - and unfortunately, most of us experience shame growing up too.

In past generations in the West, kids were shamed a whole lot more than has become the norm over the past 40 or so years - used to be, children were shamed as a matter of course. To this day, many non-Western cultures today remain shame-based ones where avoidance of losing face and dishonor are major motivating factors for everyone in those societies.

So why is being "trans" a Western phenomenon that didn't arise until the 20th century? Why is it suddenly cropping up as a wildly popular trend only now in the 21st century? And why is the current fad for being "trans" mainly occurring in well-off countries in the West? (Yes, I know there are "third gender" castes for gay men in various non-Western cultures, but those traditions are very different to present-day transsexualism and transgenderism.)

Moreover, in virtually all cultures, female people have been subject to far more shaming than male children have, and still are, and most girls for most of history have not been allowed to "express their true selves." In fact, girls and women traditionally were told either we didn't have selves, true or false - or if we did have true selves, we better keep them hidden, vague and undeveloped so as not to put off potential mates and so it would be easier to put our selves aside and in favor of fostering our future husbands's selves and self-interests. So why, then, is it that until very recently with the rise of girls developing "gender dysphoria" in adolescence and early adulthood, being "trans" has been mainly a male thing?

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Can you explain further what you mean by "feminine" here rather than just "dresses and long hair" and "toys" and "things"?

Mainly just that. I'm talking about very early childhood, so these are the types of gendered things that are evident to preschool age kids. That and whether they want to be either a "mommy" or a "daddy." Very feminine little boys identify with their mothers and little girls their age, instead of the same-sex identification that is considered developmentally normal.

Of course none of that erases male socialization. A feminine little boy is still seen and treated as a boy, even if they interpret their socialization differently or are considered a "defective" boy by those around them.

First of all, I don't agree that anyone's "true nature" is being "feminine" in the way you've portrayed it

I don't just mean this culture, but across cultures. There are lots of societies that have carved out a niche for extremely feminine men and boys. I don't think one can deny that extremely GNC male homosexuals do exist in almost all cultures. Considering them trans is obviously a more modern invention. And yes, this has always seemed to affect natal males primarily. I'm unsure whether this is cultural or somehow the result of male biology.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You're still not defining what you mean as "feminine" beyond the most superficial sexist stereotypes of clothing, hair and "gendered things."

so these are the types of gendered things that are evident to preschool age kids. That and whether they want to be either a "mommy" or a "daddy." Very feminine little boys identify with their mothers and little girls their age, instead of the same-sex identification that is considered developmentally normal.

Really? Is this information you have learnt and decided is the gospel truth from studying child development, from teaching or working with kids in another capacity, or from raising your own kids?

I admit it's been decades since I studied child development and my own kids were in preschool, but still what you are saying doesn't comport with what I have read or observed of children myself. Nor does it fit with my own experience as a child.

When I was a a preschooler and small child myself in the 1950s and early 60s, neither I nor the kids I hung out with wanted to be either a "mommy" or a "daddy"- we aspired to be letter carriers, taxi drivers, street sweepers, builders, city planners, train conductors, explorers, car wash operators, police officers, window washers and so on. This was the case with my younger siblings who were born in the 1960s too. Nor do I recall that the many kids that I babysat for in the 60s and 70s and helped out with when I volunteered and visited nursery schools in the 1980s all wanted to be "either a mommy or a daddy."

When my own kids were in preschool in the early 90s, they didn't fit this mold - and the preschool age kids I know today don't fit it, either. What you're saying sounds to me like tales of "Alice in Genderland."

Very feminine little boys identify with their mothers and little girls their age, instead of the same-sex identification that is considered developmentally normal

I have adult sons who identified with me as much as with their father when they were little boys, and who I never looked at and labeled as "feminine" or "masculine." I have known many single mothers and lesbian mothers whose sons did not grow up with a mommy and a daddy in the home, and therefore did not have the options you set forth as the only ones. In my own case, i related more to my father and a favorite uncle all my life than to my mother or other adult females who helped raise me. One of my sons when he was preschool age used to speak about my clothing and possessions as "ours" and would say things like, "mom, we have shoes like those, don't we?" pointing at ladies shoes in a shop window. He used to love clomping around in my shoes, wearing items of my clothing and nicking and wearing my costume jewelry too. I didn't realize that none of this - and none of us - was "developmentally normal."

I'd like to look into the work of the child development experts who say preschool kids are naturally wedded to sex stereotypes, that they all "want to be either a mommy or a daddy" and that it's only "developmentally normal" for kids to have an affinity for and "identify with" parents of the same sex - which assumes that all kids grow up in households where two parents are present, and one is of each sex. Coz this sounds odd and regressive to me. Can you give me their names please? Thanks.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're still not defining what you mean as "feminine" beyond the most superficial sexist stereotypes of clothing, hair and "gendered things."

That's exactly what I mean. Those superficial gendered things along with the socially approved male and female cultural roles.

I'm not a parent or a researcher. I can only go off what I've read and experienced myself. I can't point to specific studies, but generally I thought it was accepted that boys see themselves growing up to be men and girls see themselves growing up to be women. Most girls do not imagine themselves growing up to become their fathers, I don't think.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not a parent or a researcher. I can only go off what I've read and experienced myself. I can't point to specific studies, but generally I thought it was accepted that boys see themselves growing up to be men and girls see themselves growing up to be women. Most girls do not imagine themselves growing up to become their fathers, I don't think.

But you said as if it were a well-established, blanket truth applicable to everyone everywhere in every historical period that all little girls and little boys want to grow up to be "either a 'mommy' or a 'daddy' - not a woman or a man - and that it's "developmentally normal" for children to exclusively "identify with" parents of the same sex, even though not all children grow up with a parent of the same sex in the home.

If your views are based solely on your own experience growing up, what you've read, and what you assume/think is "accepted," then please present them that way instead of making grand statements that suggest you've got expertise in child development that comes from extensive study of the subject and perhaps also plenty of experience teaching and raising children.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think you're reading way more into my statement than was there.

If you have evidence that so-called "normal" boys see themselves growing up to be women or "normal" girls see themselves growing up to be men, then I'm open to hearing it. But I think it's been well established that the opposite is true. At least once kids understand that biological sex is fixed.

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I find that beyond a liking for dresses, long hair and objects that they and some others consider "girly," most males who call themselves "feminine" and are described by many others (without much thought) as "feminine" actually have very little in common with female people in their behaviors, attitudes, sense of self, level of self-regard and social entitlement. Coz being males, they were not raised as girls and subject to female socialization.

Yes I completely agree! Many LGBT people do not really fit under the stereotypical, heteronormative views of "masculine" and "feminine". And they don't need to, and neither do any of us! But people still insist on calling them that anyway.

Somebody else in this thread mentioned Jeffree Star, for example. He is seen as a "GNC" man, or "feminine", because of his appreciation of makeup and the way he looks. But he actually is "proud" and has kind of a domineering personality, which is not usually seen as being feminine at all.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, men like Jeffree Star are called "feminine" when what they actually are is flamboyant. Or what used to called "flaming" in US slang before it was decided that this term is pejorative. These guys are strutting, preening, loud-mouthed peacocks, not shy, retiring, modest, soft-spoken wallflowers doing their best not to take up too much space or draw attention to themselves the way girls are women are taught to do.

Many LGBT people do not really fit under the stereotypical, heteronormative views of "masculine" and "feminine".

This is true of many people who are not "LGBT" as well. I'm old - 66 - and I don't know anyone of any sexual orientation from age 97 to 7 who utterly conforms to all the stereotypes for either "masculine" or "feminine" the way so many young people obsessed with today's "gender" ideology seem to assume everyone does and mistakenly assume everyone always has.

For people my generation, and the younger people I know, women with close cropped hair who wear "man-tailored" suits, sensible shoes and are as handy with power tools as with a curling iron and clothes iron are simply normal, everyday women. And men who wear their hair long and eyeliner and/or cook, bake and do needlework are simply normal, everyday men. None of us blinks an eye at men like Dennis Rodman (NBA player who openly wore dresses, makeup and women's lingerie), Kurt Cobain, Marilyn Peter Robinson, Robert Smith or all the glammed up, made-up long haired hetero rock stars of the 1970s and 80s like Roxy Music, shown here in 1972: https://youtu.be/BonWfTW7jKc

Nor were any of us ever anything but mad for Little Richard from when he first hit it big in the 1950s: https://youtu.be/5ydBkmgJi-g

https://youtu.be/ZSx91WBQLpg

https://youtu.be/znWYjR-0_Os

https://youtu.be/4nFWpRD8UlY

Also, I don't think it's fair to characterize the regressive, rigidly stereotyped views of "masculine" and "feminine" that are so prevalent today as "heteronormative." Men of all sexualities - including the many, many gay men who long have had outsized influence in fashion, advertising, magazine publishing, toy design, the entertainment world, hairdressing, cosmetics and the personal care industry and so on - have created and pushed these stereotypes. Gay men have been major creators and promulgators of the "feminine" stereotypes pushed on girls and women - and they have also been major pushers of macho masculinity, too. For every gay guy like RuPaul or Jeffree Star who goes to great lengths to have a "feminine" or "feminized" appearance, there are two gay guys who seek to "present in" the macho mode lionized by gay men like Robert Mapplethorpe and Tom of Finland.

In the 1970s, the Village People became world famous for songs that both celebrated and made fun of the ultra-masculine stereotypes that gay men pushed onto themselves and other men.

Here from 1978 is "YMCA," named after the McBurney YMCA on 23rd Street in Manhattan, long a gym, hangout and safe haven frequented by gay men, and the place where many young gay men from all over lived when they first arrived in NYC: https://youtu.be/CS9OO0S5w2k

"Macho Man" from a network TV appearance in the USA in 1979: https://youtu.be/YZ1glxX1BiQ

"In The Navy" from an appearance on Dutch TV in 1980: https://youtu.be/Y3p4e-htTHw

Another performance of "Macho Man" also from Dutch TV in 1980 just to show how mainstream they were: https://youtu.be/PUoO4T_23pA Everyone got the double meaning of their act. And no one looked askance, as the blasé attitude of the kids in the studio audience shows.

BTW, Jeffree Star always strikes me as a second-rate, less talented copy of Baltimora, shown here in 1983: https://youtu.be/_r0n9Dv6XnY

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is true of many people who are not "LGBT" as well.

True, I didn't mean to imply otherwise! The worst offenders of this stereotyping are those that believe in gender ideology, not even straight people. I just called it "heteronormative" because that's probably where the idea of "men need to be masculine, so therefore gay men must be feminine because they don't fit in" originated.

It is really shocking that in previous years, people seemed more comfortable with being casually "GNC" than right now!

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It is really shocking that in previous years, people seemed more comfortable with being casually "GNC" than right now!

Yes, it is. I often feel like I'm living the life of an "Alien in Genderland." In the 70s, 80s and 90s, nobody thought twice about men wearing long hair, frilly clothes and makeup, or women wearing buzz cuts, shaved heads and men's clothing. I don't consider myself particularly "gender non-conforming" - cuz I tend not to see myself or others through the lens of the sex stereotypes that are "gender" - but I have had very short hair for most of my life (even shaved my head in the 80s), as most women I know have, and I've always worn some boys and men's clothing and accessories.

Used to be, girls and women had to wear men's clothing for various activities coz certain items - such as a lot of sports, workout and outdoor clothing, motorcycle jackets, work coveralls, safety gear, shoes like Vans, Doc Martens, steel-toed work boots and LL Bean boots - originally were only made for men. Also, in the 1960s, 70s and 80s, there were lots of unisex clothing stores and hair salons.

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's wild to me. In the 2020s, any female who dresses that way would surely be calling herself "non-binary." But part of that is because of the sheer number of young people identifying as queer.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But you don't mean that any female of any age who dresses that way would be calling herself an enby, do you?

The tendency to call one's self "non binary" seems to me to be something exclusive to very young people, and only some young people at that. Of all the people I know, only very few in their 30s, 40s and beyond define themselves according the sex stereotypes they prefer or reject, and hardly anyone feels a need to adopt and flaunt labels that announce to the world which set of sex stereotypes they embrace and which they eschew. This doesn't mean that these people are accepting of sex stereotypes and have never thought of them. On the contrary most people have thought about sex stereotypes growing up and at other junctures in life, and most have decided to reject some, embrace others, put up with some and ignore the bulk.

Most of the older people I know who are into gender labels and "my pronouns" are trans-identified people I've met coz of the new politics around sex and gender. Outside of those small circles, no one I know over age 30 is into gender identity labels - though most of these same people are "gender non-conforming" in myriad ways, particularly according to the the rigid stereotypes many people in their teens and 20s today believe have always been the norm. For example, in my generation (I'm 66), it's quite common for men to be into cooking and baking and various artistic endeavors. But I've had many people now in their early 20s tell me in the past couple of years that cooking and baking, painting and drawing, and playing any musical instrument other than the guitar and drums are things only female people do.

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think that these kids maybe have an identification with the opposite sex peer group, or their opposite sex parent. And this is what is causing their dysphoria. They want to imitate the group of people that they identify with.

As for those who have a severe dysphoria about their body, it seems linked to homosexuality, in which case they may still want to be trans as adults. After all, many feminine gay men or butch lesbians have body dysphoria as adults, so they're kind of HSTS-Lite (in my opinion). Many on the Butch Lesbians subreddit want to have their breasts removed. But...again, it could be because they don't want men to see them as feminine. Without pressure from society, would they really want to look like trans men? I don't know...it would be hard to figure this out

Basically, if GCers were somehow able to eliminate gender roles, I do think less people would identify as trans, or have body dysphoria. But it's hard to know, because there's many reasons for trans identity. Based on the way I see gender, I would have expected most trans people to be bi. In reality, it seems most were HSTS, but then there are AGPs, and then there's that entire crisis with teenage girls having ROGD, and nowadays there are even MORE reasons... So, dysphoria can manifest itself in different ways, maybe in a GC society, it still couldn't be stopped?

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think dysphoria could be dramatically reduced in a GC society, but most likely not fully stopped.

Many on the Butch Lesbians subreddit want to have their breasts removed. But...again, it could be because they don't want men to see them as feminine.

Good point. Breasts have so many social and sexual connotations, it's hard to argue that people can view them as a neutral body part. In the first place, they're seen as the pinnacle of femininity. Which is obviously something masculine women don't want to represent. And second, they're sexualized by men. So for a masculine lesbian, that's a double whammy.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am certain that the root cause of my nonbinary gender identity was my cruel and highly gendered early childhood ("toxic masculinity" if you must), which caused me to reject my masculinity. Even being "sensitive" was enough to incur the wrath of powerful men.

My theory is that children are hard-wired to latch on to some sort of gender identity at an early age and this process can be disrupted from its typical outcome by environmental influences.