GC: What are the differences between sex segregation and racial segregation? Why is the former required, while the latter is discriminatory?

adungitit · 2021-05-13T16:38:58+00:00

Black people did not demand segregation for their own protection and needs. Segregation was pushed on them by the dominant class for no reason other than the fact that they were seen as subhumans that the whites shouldn't mingle with. This is different from women fighting for their own spaces because shared spaces were dangerous and exclusionary to them because of men's misogyny.

"if men should not be allowed in women's spaces because they might be attracted to women, and stare at a woman inappropriately making women uncomfortable, why should lesbians be allowed in women's spaces"?

We don't have an entire history of women sexually assaulting and perving on other women to the point of having to create separate spaces for protection just so women could function normally in public.

EDIT: The equivalent of racial segregation would be when women were straight up banned by men from institutions like colleges and jobs. In some places they couldn't even leave the house unattended. THAT is segregation.

adungitit · 2021-05-05T15:10:06+00:00

anyone who has had dysphoria from a young age has had a VERY warped experience with societal expectations of gender placed on them by society, their parents, their friends, etc.

Considering the amount of trauma girls and women amass because of their female bodies, I don't think this is exclusive to trans people.

without taking into account that children are affected by society and take on a lot of influence from their parents without even realizing it.

We know. Which is why we're against transitioning children. And since we know how affected not only children but grownups are in our patriarchal society, this is also why we don't blindly believe any man the moment he uses "she/her" pronouns or any woman who's "not like other girls".

I don't really think it's reasonable to compare the actions of impressionable children to adults who have changed their own outlook and interaction with gender roles.

But doesn't the argument go that dysphoria is all about your brain having the opposite sex, and that by virtue of wanting to internalise all the opposite sex messaging, you are psychologically not any different from the girls and women who actually have experienced said messaging all their lives? When you have trans people almost universally claiming this, pointing out their history of gender conformity speaks volumes. To be clear, GC doesn't believe that gender conformity or nonconformity makes someone male or female. We just think that the way that trans people engage in these is pretty telling of the deeply rooted patriarchy inherent to the movement.

Moreover, the vast majority of adults never think about gender beyond the superficial patriarchal view on it, especially not men. Even self-proclaimed feminist men tend to be misogynists, let alone the progressives and liberals. It seems dishonest to then claim that a man becomes automatically immune to and purged of all of this because he claims he's a woman now, especially considering how rife trans communities are with sexist statements like the ones mentioned in this thread.

adungitit · 2021-05-13T05:48:43+00:00

an instinct to identify with a group based on observable sex traits

So...once again we end up with gender roles, except in more words.

normalize some sort of appearance standards for your own self based off of that criteria

Like...the whole point of feminism is not to do that. Women have nothing to "normalise" themselves according to; they're women regardless of whether they feel like women, whether they enjoy being women or whether they relate to being women. They're female when they're unconscious, when they're dead, when they're infants. The fact that the patriarchy has decided a "woman" is akin to a walking blowup doll or a type of brain you have is a PROBLEM, not a fun thing to validate your gender with. Remove that, and women are still women - male trans people are not.

we naturally see these sorts of sex trait groups form among chimps and bonobos

Oh ffs, here we go again...

it doesn’t seem odd to think that some sort of modified group instinct is operating and creating a sort of instinctual sameness between members of a group that posess similar sex traits

Lovely. Bioessentialism supports patriarchy because chimps, and if women are getting screwed over by it, they should just comfort themselves knowing their gender is being validated by these groupings.

creating a sort of instinctual sameness between members of a group that posess similar sex traits

"It's not gender roles, guise! It's something different that's exactly the same, except not called that!"

adungitit · 2021-05-12T16:50:23+00:00

Sex trait combinations actually occur along a spectrum

Almost all human beings, barring <1% of medical disorders, are male or female. This is a spectrum as much as a number of human limbs is a spectrum.

Men and women show natural variance in their male and female bodies - this doesn't make them the opposite sex. Sex isn't defined by secondary characteristics, hence why various developmental issues can affect the sexes while still making their sex apparent.

With no artificial sex binary

The reality of male and female bodies is not artificial. You can see that in a simple fact of mammalian reproduction.

With no artificial sex binary and the oppressive societies that they breed

This comes back to the pretty damn offensive idea that the problem with the patriarchy is simply down to those pesky females having to be female, and if they didn't, superior males wouldn't naturally abuse and subjugate them. Instead of fixing oppression, the victims are blamed for being different and facilitating said oppression through that because of the natural order.

people who are born with or desire different sex trait combinations won’t be stigmatized.

You are assuming that coveting opposite sex traits to the point of suicidal ideation and spending a lifetime on drugs in order to prevent your body from naturally producing the hormones that it's supposed to have, and amputating perfectly normal body parts just because you've convinced yourself your properly developed body parts are "wrong" or "defective" is in any way good for the person. Moreover, the patriarchal ideas internalised in these body parts are an almost unavoidable part of the motivation for removing or deforming them, and trans people aren't shy about stating it. There is a reason people obsess the most over removing the things that are loaded with social meaning, as opposed to, I dunno, one third of their toes.

adungitit · 2021-05-12T20:19:48+00:00

no humans are male or female because its a spectrum.

How exactly do you think babies are made?

the number of limbs on a human being is objectively not a fixed number, so yeah you could describe it as a spectrum.

It is fixed, and the fact that developmental disorders exist doesn't change that.

All sex traits determine an individuals sex spectrum status, not just “primary” ones.

If you redefine sex to include things that it's not supposed to include, sure. But sex IS about primary characteristics, hence why doctors can still easily tell who's male or female regardless of secondary characteristics. They're not scratching their heads unless it's primary characteristics.

some people don’t produce gametes. Since those people aren’t sexless

They still develop the anatomy specifically for producing only one type of gamete. Infertility doesn't change the fact that the sexes develop in a consistent way to facilitate this. You can have malfunctioning equipment, but that doesn't mean the equipment isn't there, or worse yet, the fact that it's malfunctioning doesn't mean it cannot be defined according to its structure, development and purpose, or even worse yet, the fact that it's malfunctioning doesn't mean it can be defined as anything your heart desires. If you remove tires from a car or if a car stops working or hell, if a car is in a garage and isn't being used, that's still a car. It hasn't turned into a bird or a plane just because it doesn't serve its function.

The distinction is arbitrary.

Human reproduction certainly disagrees. No-one was prevented from getting pregnant just by believing in their pronouns hard enough, so the real arbiter has pretty consistently decided on this.

Do you think reproductive capabilities are a completely random throw of the dice? Why do you think mammalian sexes have developed in the first place? Why do you think there has never in the entire history of humanity been a single pregnant male or an impregnating female? Like literally never?

It in no way supports such an idea? The issue is oppressive systems of thinking not people posessing certain sex trait configurations

You've said that oppressive societies are bred by the sex binary. Were you specifically referring to societies oppressive to trans people, though? Because it sounds like you're not even considering patriarchal oppression in this arrangement.

Cis people and their noxious sytsems of oppression are what fuel the tendency for trans people to normalize their appearances in line with cis standards of appearance.

Are you saying that the only reason trans people transition is because of "cis oppression"? I don't think that's a sentiment most trans people would get behind.

Moreover, trans people objectively have no issues with their sex at all, like literally none. The only reason they think they have is because of a mental illness. At the end of the day, it's people who are convinced they should be something they're not, to the point of wanting unnecessary and damaging intervention on their bodies. It is something rooted in hatred of one's normal body, and that is in stark contrast with other oppressed groups. Trans people have more in common with body integrity disorder than intersex people.

adungitit · 2021-05-30T20:00:02+00:00

Why do you think man and woman only mean adult human male and female?

Because we do not acknowledge gendersouls. We acknowledge actual biological reality of the mammalian sex, as well as the socialisation that is imprinted onto them.

adungitit · 2021-05-26T08:42:51+00:00

According to them, since you can't tell someone's gender, then you could be attracted to anyone, hence you must be pan.

This is just one of those things that baffle me, like...just the logic behind it...I mean even aside from the creepy rapey parts, the idea that if you trick a person that you're something you're not and that you're actually something they prefer, that it means their preferences aren't real. It's like if a person wore a troll mask, and then took it off, and if anyone thought they were attractive, that this means either that they're lying or that they're actually attracted to trolls.

adungitit · 2021-04-30T13:44:32+00:00

I do not define men and women according to how well they "pass" because I do not define men and women according to misogyny, I define them according to their actual biology. As such, I do not think that gender nonconforming women, or women with more testosterone than expected of women, are male. Nor do I believe I become a man every time people mistake me for a man. The fact that the trans community has trouble grasping the fact that you do not become something just because you trick people that you are it is still unbelievable to me. I can lie that I'm a part of the royal family, that wouldn't actually make me as such if enough people believed it.

Lots of people can struggle understanding this because radical feminism spends a lot of time discussing gendered socialisation and resulting biases, which is consistent with sex because you need to be male or female in order for society to treat you as such. This does not mean that women or men are born with gendered socialisation but that gendered socialisation is inevitable under a patriarchal system and until that system and the ideologies furthering it are completely removed, men and women are going to fall into gendered behaviour, and need to put extensive work into undoing it. And no, the trans community, rife with overt misogyny, absolutely does not provide an environment ideal for this, in fact it feeds off of the same ideals as the patriarchy does for the sake of gender-affirmation.

Now, what you can argue is that a trans person passing as the opposite sex makes it more likely that they experience a part of the gendered socialisation targeted at the opposite sex. This does not negate their gendered childhood (the most vulnerable years of human development) and frequently extensive years beyond that, their resulting gendered biases and the simple fact that they are biologically merely modified members of their own sex. You can argue this, but in my experiences, passing male trans people are just as misogynistic and male-acting as the non-passing ones, so this statement isn't going to go unchallenged, much like any other statement claiming that a percentage of men is not problematic by virtue of them claiming they aren't, or because they're disadvantaged by other men.

Is there proof that people can not be born in the wrong sex or body?

Is there proof that a person cannot have the soul of a wolf? Or an anime character?

Even if people can be born in the wrong sex or body, there's a leap from that to "I am the opposite sex and I deserve equal protections as the actual members of the opposite sex because I feel I should belong to the opposite sex".

Is it hateful, rude and disrespectful to call a man who identifies and passes as a woman a man, or a woman who identifies and passes as a man a woman?

I think any ideology that relies on defining women according to things other than the simple fact of being biologically female is harmful to women. The inevitable assumptions of what makes a woman more of a woman (feminine clothing, feminine mannerisms, ladybrains, how sexually attractive she is etc.) have shown time and time again to work against women's well-being and dignity. I do not see it as a matter of courtesy and respect to entertain misogynistic ideologies and how those define women.

adungitit · 2021-02-12T11:33:52+00:00

A lot of male trans people that seem on the surface to be allies are even worse misogynists than the liberals; they generally believe that they have a ladybrain because they engage in gender stereotypes and that said ladybrain and the resulting gender performance, plastic surgeries and artificially induced hormonal imbalance make them "real women", while the "transtrenders" are just fake posers. It's not about women's rights for them at all, it's just about stupid gender validation as usual. I will give them that their position at least has some consistency and logic compared to the liberal "gendur is wuteva u want hun 😘", but it all rests on the premise that a ladybrain makes a woman.

adungitit · 2021-05-26T10:19:06+00:00

Respond that you can't tell anyone's DNA either, and yet people seem to consistently target their attraction to humans instead of other animals.

adungitit · 2021-11-25T14:48:06+00:00

there is no time I wanted my breasts.

This is such a strange argument to me and I see it a lot. I never wanted white skin, or blue eyes or those back dimples. But I have them. No-one ever asked me if I wanted these things, no-one ever cared how I felt about them, no one cares if I cry over them or jump from joy. I wasn't given a list before being born to check which traits I want. I couldn't "want" to be taller, hairier, stronger. These are simply the cards I have been dealt and there hasn't been one moment ever where my wishes or feelings factored into them.

I notice that a lot of people on the trans (rights) side seem to think women love being women, that they get euphoric from having breasts, they get overjoyed from being female. From a patriarchal and liberal feminist standpoint, this makes sense: there is a ridiculous amount of focus in society placed on sexualising women's bodies through the male gaze and for male satisfaction, and even "progressive" movements selling this as female empowerment and liberation. The image is painted of a sexy, very confident half-naked woman who's in control of her (male-gaze pandering) sexuality.

In practice however, anxieties over one's body and a lifetime of endured objectification, self-hatred and sexual dysfunction are very common in women. In my experience, they're so common that I no longer believe any woman who tries to paint a picture of a woman overjoyed by these things. It's like asking me to believe that your average Muslim woman really did choose her subhuman god-given role. No matter how euphoric it makes her, I'm not going to buy it when we know from history how genuine this contentment with one's oppression is.

adungitit · 2021-05-26T10:44:33+00:00

If some gc person says "well I don't agree with all of gc or gender abolition or the complete constructionist model" then fair enough but it's part of the debate.

Because that person is disagreeing with what GC is (a position that is known through basic familiarity with the movement), not because any bullshit you can think of passes for whatever you want.

If you cannot recognise basic tenants of a certain position that are spelled out to you on the sub's front page, then you have nothing to argue over. You are acting stupid and should not be allowed to debate.

It is not derailing.

And if you just say you're not, that magically makes it so!

The point was that a person claiming to be alienated and tortured by gender norms didn't do jack to actually budge said gender norms and in fact worked hard to live up to said gender norms, making their claims highly unconvincing. Whether their gendersoul was compelling them to act in paradoxical ways in irrelevant.

Are we talking about a man or woman here?

You are derailing again. The point was that a person claiming to be alienated and tortured by gender norms didn't do jack to actually budge said gender norms and in fact worked hard to live up to said gender norms, making their claims highly unconvincing.

Making male non conformity entirely about rejection an extreme male chauvinism. I don't recognise that at a reasonable position.

Just wanking out a "I disagree" is as worthwhile as wanking out that the moon is made of cheese.

The logic of this is everyone should be masculine.

The logic is that both femininity and masculinity are oppressive constructs. Masculinity facilitates abuse, femininity facilitates objectification of women and taking abuse.

Actually I think women generally want masculine men for sexual reasons

Riiight. And all the abuse, trauma and anxieties resulting from that just happen because "it's what women want". And the fact that men never gave a fuck about women's pleasure is also just because women have been secretly mind-controlling them, right? As are the orgasm gap, the dehumanisation, objectification, harassment, double standards, domestic expectations etc. After all, women were owned by men because they wanted it, right?

Their sexual desire is not an invalid reason.

It just so happens to, through pure coincidence, coincide with what men want and have been pushing onto them for centuries, and also result in high rates of dissatisfaction, anxiety and trauma. But let me guess, none of that matters because you can wank out that you "don't think so".

Pepsi or Cola aren't gendered. They could be. But they aren't.

It was you who made the claim that the patriarchy and its gender norms cannot cease to exist because everything has to be either masculine of feminine. Which one is Pepsi, and which is Cola? Feel free to reconsider your opinion if you can't answer this.

That something isn't gendered does not mean gender isn't natural.

Appealing to nature and justifying male supremacy as innate has been used by men to oppress women for as long as the patriarchy has existed. Turns out women can vote and have careers, though. So I'm afraid I don't care much for your male supremacist wanking. That's worked out marvellously for men, and has done nothing but screw women over.

adungitit · 2021-05-26T08:50:02+00:00

But you essentialised masculinity to the man which is fine but that's a different argument.

No. They acknowledged that men still hold onto misogyny and masculinity even when they claim they're women. This is a tired debate that GC has had countless times already: we acknowledge masculinity and femininity as social factors that the sexes are inevitably saddled with as a result of their upbringing. This does not mean that we believe there are ladybrains and manbrains making the sexes inevitably act this way any more than we believe there are Muslim-brains or Hindu-brains making people follow religion en masse. THAT is essentialist.

A person who truly felt alienated by gender norms wouldn't go out of their way to follow them. Society does begrudgingly allow a degree of flexibility in regards to gendered presentation, but male trans people usually don't make use of that at all, because it's not about freeing yourself from gender norms, it's about imitating a caricature of inferior womanhood.

adungitit · 2021-05-18T23:26:53+00:00

Women do not present a threat to men, or other women for that matter. Female spaces exist and were set up in the first place to protect women from male harassment and violence, hence why men cannot be allowed in them. Male safety has never been in any way compromised by women which is why male spaces don't exist for male protection nor rely on female exclusion. A woman entering male spaces is taking a risk to herself, rather than presenting a danger to men. We can criticise ideologies that convince her men are harmless and not misogynistic, or that she's safe from misogyny because she put "he/their" on her twitter bio, but that's not really addressing the issues themselves.
Female trans people occupy the same role as female people in general trying to play nice with the patriarchy to gain male respect or establish how "not like other girls" they are. Women throwing women under the bus for patriarchal approval is nothing new, even though female trans people love to think their mere existence somehow dismantles radical feminism. Ultimately, most women working against their interests do so for men's sake and approval. Remove men dominating with their misogyny and you remove women's tendency to haggle with the patriarchy as well.
Women do not have the power to affect how men are viewed or how they behave. This is due to the aforementioned power dynamic between the sexes, as well as gendered upbringing and the historical precedent behind misogynistic myths and treatment of women. Men are the ones who invade female spaces, gaslight and preach misogyny, and benefit from a lifetime of socialisation fondling their egos, making them dominate conversations, drown out women's voices, think their opinions and feelings need to be centred by women no matter how misogynistic and full of shit they are, and overall have the kind of obnoxious baseless confidence combined with the refusal to take a step back and listen to women or even consider reality without their biased male lens. Men constantly abuse society's ignorance or plain wilful stupidity over women's bodies and their experiences to push misogynistic mythology and take what they want for themselves, and they constantly abuse women's meekness and politeness for it, because women are trained to bend over backwards to accommodate men.

adungitit · 2021-05-09T21:32:45+00:00

Meh, in my experience most "GC" leaning trans people are just transmedicalists, and are extremely invested in the idea of ladybrains.

adungitit · 2021-05-30T19:44:34+00:00

Women are brainwashed to think of themselves as objects and to view themselves through male lens, because this is the only way in which they are allowed to experience sexuality. To not engage in this means to disappoint the male partner and fail at sex (which is equated with the male gaze and male sexual desires) and also to lose your only worth as a woman, the only thing you can actually be valued for because you're automatically seen as a failure at everything else. Women are attracted to the idea of not being rejected by society, which is why they entertain patriarchal ideas about themselves as objects. When a woman feels so insecure in herself that she dare not even leave the house for a few minutes without a face full of makeup, that's a result of her not wanting to feel like garbage by society telling her she has no worth as a normal human being (because if she were a normal human being, she'd be a man). This is entirely different from actually being attracted to the idea that she's a subhuman. Men on the other hand don't think about the women they're attracted to at all beyond what other men's fantasies tell them, and this does play into the idea of women as literal subhumans.

Men perceive women as objects first, humans second. For women, that is by necessity reversed.

adungitit · 2021-05-26T09:43:41+00:00

GC often isn't a single stable position. There are different beliefs.

These things have been stated over and over again, they're literally basic GC tenants you can see from the most cursory overview of their sub. The fact that you can constantly act stupid and amnesia-ridden and demand the same GC 101 explanations over and over again won't change reality to match your bullshitting.

Where does truly felt alienation from gender norms come from? Is it "natural" ?

You are trying to derail again. The point was that a person claiming to be alienated and tortured by gender norms didn't do jack to actually budge said gender norms and in fact worked hard to live up to said gender norms, making their claims highly unconvincing. Whether their gendersoul was compelling them to act in paradoxical ways in irrelevant.

I'm still never clear what you're idea of "good male trans people" are.

Not believing in male supremacist ideology and objectifying women would be a good start (which goes for all men). But let me guess, poor men's dicks didn't evolve for that :,(

It comes back to this issue of femininity being bad for everyone and masculine being seen as the "true natural norm."

Because femininity exists in the first place in order to be oppressive. Masculinity exists in order to maximise privileges and entitlement for men. Hence why femininity results in demonstrable widespread damage to women, and masculinity results in huge privileges for men. Because the system has caused and continues to cause immeasurable suffering for women at the hands of men, it needs to be abolished. But let me guess, "Poor men's dicks didn't evolve for that :,("

It seems to amount to "Gender will be abolished when everyone is masculine."

Right, you're still sticking to that "only masculinity and femininity exist" horseshit. Tell me again, which is feminine and which is masculine: Pepsi or Cola? Oh, you're gonna disappear again? Bye!

adungitit · 2021-05-26T07:34:32+00:00

If it weren't for posts like this, we wouldn't be saying feminists are man hating.

You mean the post that is accurate, but is "manhating" because it doesn't lie and gaslight that women are the problem and that the matriarchy is a thing? You have been given statistics and just basic fucking observations of the world around you. Your response? Lying through your teeth and ignoring anything that puts a dent into your lying. When you tire of lying, you disappear.

GCs on Ovarit and Saidit constantly use slurs against trans people, such as narcissist, delusional, fetishistic, lying little shit, mental case, fujoshi, YAOI, "everyone wants to be oppressed" just to name a few. I didn't make up these slurs. They are from actual GC threads.

Those are not slurs. You could describe them as insults or stereotypes or just descriptions, but they are not slurs. Slurs are actual words uniquely targeted at a specific group for the purpose of insulting them. Calling fetishists or narcissists what they are is not a "slur". Hell, even calling marginalised groups those words isn't a slur, because a "slur" is a very specific thing, not just any insult.

There is a thing called dysphoria and it's not caused by social contagion. I was born female. The thought of me having a penis grosses me out. If I was born male, I would feel great distress and want to transition via hormones and surgery so I wouldn't fee

Right, you said this before (because of course you did), and were told that this "dysphoria", "hormones" and "surgery" aren't even needed to be trans in any way, and that claiming otherwise makes you transphobic. And, of course, you conveniently disappeared, but knowing you're wrong didn't stop you from parroting the exact same thing here, and it won't stop you from parroting it elsewhere.

In every thread, you are proven wrong, you always fail to address anything that was said, you constantly lie through your teeth even when faced with statistics, only to disappear and reappear elsewhere and parrot the exact same lying. Even with this very limited engagement, when the reality of female oppression becomes impossible even for you to ignore, you switch to claiming you can't be a misogynist because of these specific instances where you've oh-so-bravely virtue-signalled for equal rights of various disenfranchised groups, waiting for an applause. None of this disproves your misogyny when you consistently lie, gaslight and espouse misogynistic views and male myths that are directly harmful to women. But the fact that QT "feminists" are so consistently misogynistic for the sake of male approval does prove a good point in regards to how self-hating a woman has to be in order for QT to make sense.

adungitit · 2021-05-15T10:34:08+00:00

it seems like there's a lack of empathy on the part of transwomen in these scenarios

There is as much empathy in them as there is in your average man. It is indeed a lack of empathy, but a normal and expected one.

it seems like there's a lack of empathy on the part of transwomen in these scenarios

They think the same about women. Because women do not want to give up their hard-won rights and go against their better judgement and safety measures when it comes to male trans people, they are labelled as cruel and inconsiderate. The exact same approach is visible in the reaction to feminism in general: the fact that women push for their rights and reject misogynistic norms that men want to keep in place is constantly characterised as hateful, misandrist and supremacist. This has been the normal reaction for as long as feminism has existed. Appeals for women to centre everyone's needs but women's and to deal with being dehumanised and subjugated because "men will feel bad otherwise :,(" have always been a part of the patriarchy, because women exist as secondary characters for the benefit of someone more important and more human.

adungitit · 2021-05-13T12:57:34+00:00

It doesn't. The reason you (and other mammals) have the sex that you have is because your body was developed to facilitate production of one of only two gamete types, much like how a gun was made to shoot bullets and it doesn't stop being a gun the moment you stop shooting it, or if it's empty, or if it malfunctions. Your logic would be like defining a gun as "only the weapon that is currently in the process of successfully shooting bullets" and then claiming that guns aren't real.

The fact that gametes aren't produced 24/7 does not make the sexes stop existing, because the sexes never were defined according to this ability. Science has accounted for this, which is why male and female children or infertile or dead people are still male or female even if they aren't producing gametes: they have their anatomy in the first place because mammalian biology first needs a body specifically developed to produce one type of gamete before we can even talk about a gamete actually being produced. This is why humans have been able to successfully reproduce with each other for millions of years: You don't need to see someone's DNA or chromosomes to know whether they are human and whether they are male or female, that much is obvious just from looking at their body.

adungitit · 2021-05-05T15:20:53+00:00

Trans activists talk about gender all day long, but they are allergic to the words masculinity & femininity

I thought they liked the notion that performing femininity makes you female, and masculinity male? Isn't that what girlmode and boymode are about? I've literally heard many of them say that, if people mistake you for a man, then you are a man. Then again, I've seen so many contradictory views from them that I don't know what to believe. I feel that a lot of them make these sexist claims because they literally have no idea how to make the ideology make sense otherwise, and due to being all "TRANS RIGHTS FTW" there is a silent agreement that no-one can point out how contradictory and sexist all these ideas on gender are.

adungitit · 2021-05-05T14:56:52+00:00

a lot of trans people weren’t gender nonconforming or gay as kids so I don’t want to speak for them.

Considering that "trans" has lost all meaning nowadays and can refer to regular gender conforming person who isn't even taking hormones let alone planning a surgery, that doesn't mean much.

adungitit · 2021-02-24T10:00:40+00:00

Men would just get turned on from that. Women simply don't present the same threat to men that men do to women. Men don't spend a lifetime being preyed on by women to be creeped out by them.

adungitit · 2021-07-08T14:22:44+00:00

You're just demanding that people use another lie because reality is insulting to you. Male trans people aren't "neutral", nor are they cats or helicopters, or trees. They are men. They are men regardless of how many temper tantrums they throw over that, regardless of how depressed that fact makes them, regardless of whether they love it or hate it, regardless of whether they're sleeping, or awake, or juggling oranges.

You're demanding that society and even science lie about objective reality solely because certain severely mentally ill individuals find reality "insulting" and their mental healthy relies on believing in falsehoods (again, similar to religion). It's not the people with eyes and a brain recognising reality that are magically making men into men with invisible laser beams. It's simply reality being what it is. Evolution wasn't invented by atheists wanting to insult Christians. Round Earth wasn't recognised because people just hate flat-earthers so much. Vaccines aren't used because we want to insult anti-vaxxers. People don't have the gall to recognise reality because they're out to insult some group who revolve their identity around falsehoods that contradict said reality. So many trans people aren't even concerned with the fact that their beliefs are objectively false but only with how oh-so-"offended" they are by other people daring to not play along even when they need to sacrifice their rights and roll them back decades just to make them feel better.

adungitit · 2021-05-16T08:37:40+00:00

While magical sex changes or gender never made sense to me, before knowing any trans people I used to baselessly assume that men who related to women to the point of wanting to be them would be the rare men who I could actually feel comfortable around as a human being. I also naively assumed the same thing about male feminists. What a joke that was lol! I eventually learned that even the male communities that by all logic should've moved past their misogyny (like communities for gender nonconforming men, submissive men, or men traumatised by other men and their patriarchal hierarchies) are just as misogynistic as any other male community and are still functioning according to the exact same mindset, with all their thoughts and feelings resulting from that. And the reason really is because men do not see women as human beings, so when men do these seemingly "nonconforming" things, they're not in any way doing them as a rejection of the patriarchal system, in fact they seek to re-affirm it. They see women as inferior caricatures as opposed to the actual (male) human beings. Imitating a misogynistic caricature for the sake of a fetish doesn't require you to reconsider, let alone abandon the male supremacist view the whole thing feeds off of, and it certainly doesn't require you to consider pesky things like the caricature's rights and dignity. No-one seriously thinks about Mickey Mouse's deep feelings or mouse rights when watching his cartoons or putting his costume on. That wouldn't be fun, and he exists for other people's fun. Hence why even the most progressive male communities still treat women's rights as "political" and "controversial", why the men who say they "love women" only mean they love jerking off to male-made misogynistic fantasies, why the men who notice women don't want their shitty misogynistic sex still demand women have sex with them and why male trans people can create their insular male communities where they jerk off to anime characters and porn and think this is representative of the female experience. In men's minds, imitating or desiring women is 100% divorced from women's feelings, experience, wants, thoughts etc. If a woman were human, she would be male. Since she's not, her humanity need not enter the picture and we can focus on the sexy parts that men and their supremacist system can feel validated by.

adungitit · 2021-05-13T07:27:25+00:00

You are explaining that their understanding of gametes is faulty and they're interpreting everything you say as "Since gametes don't work that way, it means that gametes and their relation to sex cannot be understood".

adungitit · 2021-05-12T14:41:29+00:00

Every branch of feminism is about upholding women's rights. What makes gender critical feminism stand out is that they're anti-trans.

So you do understand that GC is a branch of feminism, and claiming that any measure of anti-trans views = GC is a lie? Great. Can we finally move on, then? I mean, I can prove my point all over again, but at some point if you decide to do the expected "If I close my eyes it can't hurt me" dance, I'll just start copy-pasting the arguments I have made until you either address them or (the most likely option) disappear.

Gender criticals don't own the term "radical feminism".

Radical feminists "claiming" to have made their ideals compatible with the inherently sexist trans ideology is like Creationists claiming their beliefs are based in science while consistently failing to demonstrate it. Sure, you can "claim" whatever you want, but can you actually prove it?

GC has not proven anything beyond ranting about trans people.

Uhhh...you can have a glance at literally any discussion on this sub and see trans ideology fall apart, fail to provide any arguments and actively avoiding debate. "Rants" are complaints, and are not presented as actual sound arguments that can be addressed with counterarguments. Arguments proving you wrong are not "rants" just because they make you feel uneasy or foolish.

Again, can you actually prove what you're saying? GC can. You have received replies in this very thread explaining in detail why you're wrong. In other threads you can see the same story playing out: GC rationalise their views with logical consistency, QT cannot engage. If GC views ARE engaged with by QT, GC easily clarifies them further, because GC ideology doesn't fall apart the moment someone doesn't nod their head at their mantra. They can deal with whatever QT throws at them, hence why GC-QT arguments tend to be so one-sided. GC doesn't respond to empty "transwomen are women" with an equally empty "transwomen are men", they actually clarify why they're men and why pretending that they are women is harmful to women's rights, and QT simply has no way to go against this.

I cited surveys where men are more likely to agree with you on your anti-trans views than women.

I...never denied that men are more likely to have anti-trans views? That men are more brainlessly hateful should be obvious to anyone with eyes, and women bending over backwards to coddle the feelings of everyone else to their own detriment is also an expected dynamic. I denied that these men are GC, because GC is a branch of feminism, and one cannot be GC if they are not feminist. Again, can you stop trying to repackage a transparent lie like this so we can move on?

Someone disagreeing with you is now gaslighting?

Lying about the reality of discrimination that women suffer that is obvious to anyone (but also confirmed by statistics) IS gaslighting. I'm not saying that people like historical revisionists are gaslighting because they "disagree", but because they're lying about easily demonstrable facts for the sake of an agenda.

I oppose single-sex spaces and always will.

Am I supposed to be impressed that you're passionate about upholding misogyny? You have been explained and proven why these protections are necessary for women and on what basis. You have continuously ignored and attempted to lie about this. You have failed to argue anything other than "because I say so" in response. Again, just making empty statements does not somehow give them merit and oblige people to bow down.

I suggest you Google what NPD is before calling me a narcissist.

Then stop assuming that all discussion should stop because you were doing shit on the internet at 16, and this should somehow erase all rational arguments up to this point. The world does not revolve around your internet habits or your buddies or how many heads you have as a dragon. None of that is relevant, and yet QT (and misogynists in general) love to derail to their own irrelevant life stories when faced with how misogynistic they are being, while also erasing the trauma that women have experienced as a result of the misogynistic myths and views they're furthering. How about instead of doing that typical act, you actually prove your point, beyond just counting on a shared belief in patriarchal mythology? Because just saying "I'm not sexist!" is something even a toddler could parrot.

Yes we are advocating for actual equality as I stated above.

You have been consistently explained in a rational manner why this "equality" is harmful to women. This has happened in this very thread, as it happens on every thread here: QT comes in parroting a misogynistic mantra, gets explained why what they're saying doesn't make sense and is misogynistic, QT either disappears or keeps parroting the same mantras, doubling down on misogyny and gaslighting, all the while ignoring any arguments. Rinse and repeat. You yourself have engaged in these tactics over and over again.

Women's rights don't bother me.

Lying about women's discrimination and furthering misogynistic myths is not feminism. Certainly you can say that you are feminist just as a Creationist is a scientist but can you prove it? Can you actually justify why the misogynistic myths you're parroting aren't myths nor misogynistic despite the measurable damage they do to women?

What we are saying is gender is your inner sense of being a man, woman, both or neither amd most people have gender identities that may or may not match birth sex.

Yaaaawn, we know. This is the most generic QT statement, the misogyny and logical inconsistencies of which have been clarified at length on this sub, over and over again, with QT fleeing or failing to argue to the contrary every single time. You could literally make a thread right this moment and you would receive replies explaining this to you in as much detail as you need. QT has never managed to argue against this. I have been on this sub for years and it has literally never happened. QT can copy+paste mantras, but the moment they're faced with the unfortunate logical conclusions and real life evidence, they disappear. You yourself do it because you've never actually thought about any of this, so you can't actually explain it beyond empty virtue signalling. You can just repeat the mantra that you're supposed to say and think about how progressive that makes you seem, and that's as far as it goes.

OK, but gender critical feminism is not the only feminism.

Ok first, did you actually use the "appeal to popularity" fallacy with REDDIT of all places, know for being a misogynistic cesspool?

Second, you are talking about liberal feminism (which, yes, exists, and I never said it doesn't?). That's the more popular feminism concerned more with getting women into kinks and selling them gender roles as "empowering", than actually improving their quality of life, hence why trans activism has so easily taken root there. Radical feminism has never been popular, because it's feminism that doesn't haggle with the patriarchy.

Most of your reply is just repeating "People can say they're dragons with 6 heads!". This has already been addressed: the fact that people can say they're something doesn't mean they are, especially when their views and behaviour go against what they claim to stand for. Can you actually prove that your views do not go against women's rights? GC can, and has done so consistently and extensively, and could do it over and over again right on this sub if you asked. QT has so far failed in every single instance to an embarrassing degree. Yes, I am aware that people can say stupid things, and that they can make feminist movements despite going directly against women's rights. Literally none of this matters. What matters is if they ARE actually going against women's rights. GC has proven they do. QT has never managed to argue they don't.

All of us are sexist to an extent because we live in a sexist society

Having sexist biases that you are aware of and working through =/= gaslighting about the patriarchy, and advocating misogynistic views and the removal of women's rights.

Even women scientists showed prejudices against women.

rofl are you actually parroting feminism 101 after you just lied and denied the statistics on victimisation of women in this very thread? Is this a flimsy attempt to soothe your guilty conscience?

adungitit · 2021-05-09T22:30:56+00:00

lol men would claim that a stain on the carpet was made by evolutionary pressures if it somehow made their dicks feel better.

adungitit · 2021-05-06T11:26:16+00:00

I still can't believe that feminist movements have gone from trying to erase gender roles and fighting for sex-based rights, to insisting that acknowledging the physical reality of one's biology and having a normal healthy body are "wrong" because this doesn't match preconceived notions on what men and women should be.

adungitit · 2021-04-30T21:31:50+00:00

I have more sympathy for the anti-trans extremists.

I have as much sympathy for your average male misogynist slinging slurs like tr***y as I have for them slinging slurs at any other group every time their fucked up patriarchal supremacist hierarchy gets questioned. It's gross that these men are grouped in the same basket as the women literally trying to preserve their hard-won rights to spaces free from male violence and bigotry, and to refuse being defined further according to male biases and ideas about what women should be.

adungitit · 2021-03-18T06:02:42+00:00

Because men crying what meanie misandrist abusers feminazis are when they reject men's abuse and misogyny is literally the only thing 99% of men contribute to the conversation on women's rights? Same old, same old.

adungitit · 2020-12-06T17:16:44+00:00

Here's a better question: if vaginas aren't female, why do male people who wish to be women pay for surgeries and risk their health and bodily integrity to feel more like women, and claim that they want to kill themselves because they don't feel like women without it? Why don't they pay to put a fake ear on their groin, or make fantastical sex organs? Somehow it always just so happens to be the organs of the opposite sex. So even trans people don't believe this.

men can have those organs and get pregnant, which they call male pregnancy.

Except they can't. Literally the only "men" in existence who have the capability to get pregnant are women, because women are the only ones who can have female organs that allow for pregnancy. Because they are women. And women are the only ones who have female organs. Because female organs are the ones with the capability to get pregnant. I could go on.

There is no actual observable difference between women who claim to be male, and women who don't, just as there's no difference between a human who claims to be a wolf, and a human who doesn't, or a human who claims to be the Messiah and one who doesn't. The fact that I can say falsehoods on no basis other than "I said so" doesn't make things reality.

Why is production of sperm considered something only the male is capable of, and pregnancy something only the female is capable of?

Because that's literally how it works. We didn't decide on that, and if you don't like it, take it up with Mother Nature or God or whatever you believe in.

If you think it's impossible, can you share your reasons why you think that?

Well since you claim that there is no such thing as male and female organs, I think all so-called "sex-reassignment surgeries" should stop being performed for transsexual purposes, since there is clearly nothing that needs to be done. The organs are already appropriate to the sex they're supposed to be on, and if a person is so mentally ill that they can't recognise that, maybe they're not fit to accept such an invasive surgery. Would you agree?

adungitit · 2021-08-09T16:41:05+00:00

we also believe trans men should have the right to use men's restrooms and changing rooms.

They already have this right, and GC doesn't care about revoking it, because women do not present a danger to men. As long as women have their spaces and their usage by women is taken for granted, the woman has the right to leave those spaces if she so chooses.

As long as you keep lying and being delusional in regards to how dangerous men are to women's well-being and how the opposite is not the case in the least, sex-based protections will not make sense to you. But that's like saying that as long as you keep insisting the Earth is flat, that astrophysics will seem like a conspiracy and giberrish.

adungitit · 2021-07-08T14:33:58+00:00

lmao I come back here and you're still arguing with a generic male troll who isn't even aligned with trans activism? What's next? Debating MRAs on whether women deserve equal employment? Debating if martial rape exists? If women should vote?

It's exhausting how feminist spaces so easily take the laziest imaginable baits that should be obvious from a mile away to anyone older than yesterday. Apparently explaining why the Earth is round to the millionth generic male misogynist is more important than actually debating trans activism.

adungitit · 2021-05-26T08:03:56+00:00

Women do not need to have a loving relationship with their oppressors in order for their views on male oppression of women to have legitimacy.

adungitit · 2021-05-13T16:51:09+00:00

which is way faster than going through a long list of descriptions

Considering that "feminine" and "masculine" can mean a whole bunch of things, I don't think so. Like, you use men you'd want to date as an example, but are "feminine/masculine" referring to body type? Or clothing styles (and how feminine/masculine? Straight up crossdressing, something in between, very tidied up masculine, unconcerned with appearance)? Long hair or short? Beard, sparse facial hair, smooth face? Being emotional/empathic/stoic/immature/aggressive? Passive or assertive (socially or sexually?)?

if I start caring about that then I should start getting offended about the chinese character for the word "traitor" using the character for "female" and that some languages have a separate female and male way the speaker should use to address themselves with.

And you shouldn't be offended at it because...? It's cool to "not care" about misogyny?

adungitit · 2021-05-13T06:56:47+00:00

the term is defined by the experiences of the people existing not some essentialistic conception of “female” thought/experience

I can interpret your comment in two ways:

"The experiences of people existing (as a certain sex)", which necessarily excludes trans people, since existing as the opposite sex is not only decidedly not a part of their experience, but is also something that is literally impossible for them to achieve. We can force an artificial hormonal imbalance in male and female people, but that has little to do with a person actually being a certain sex because they, you know, are. The experiences of trans people are the experiences of people obsessed with becoming something they are objectively not to the point of undergoing an unnecessary and invasive procedure on their bodies and spending a lifetime of drugs that are not medically needed, and this is both biologically and experience-wise incomparable with men and women who just happen to exist as a certain sex regardless of how they feel or what they do about it.
Said "experiences" are actually based in gender roles and/or brainsex, so we come back to the usual ladybrains and the patriarchal experiences that the sexes are subjected to being treated as more important and real than the neutral reality of sex itself. Instead of the goal being to end the corrupt system saddling the sexes with these ideas of what they should be doing and how they should be acting, the goal instead seems to be to use the corrupt system to define the sexes themselves and turn it all into one big game of roleplaying, with the liberal "I chose it!" disclaimers being used to soothe everyone's conscience when they take issue with the inherent unfairness of the system.

adungitit · 2021-05-12T16:28:27+00:00

If gender wasn't a synonym for sex, then what is its meaning?

adungitit · 2021-05-09T21:28:29+00:00

a tent in gender critical feminism is anti-trans views

The basis of gender critical feminism is upholding women's rights. You simply cannot be GC if you don't support women's rights, as this is the entire reason for the pushback from feminists, and GC is a branch of feminism. This reasoning is consistently and at length explained in GC circles. Any gathering place for GC ideologies is dominated by women, even on male-dominated sites like Reddit.

Radical feminism =/= gender critical.

Radical feminists "claiming" to have made their ideals compatible with the inherently sexist trans ideology is like Creationists claiming their beliefs are based in science while consistently failing to demonstrate it beyond prayers. Sure, you can "claim" whatever you want, but can you actually prove it? Because GC have proven countless times that trans ideology is sexist, and QT has consistently failed to argue it isn't beyond "women's rights make me sad :,(" and "I have a dog, I like to bake cookies, and that's why transwomen are women". I really don't care about your narcissistic biography, I don't give a damn what you were doing at 16 on the internet, and I don't care that women's rights bother you. You internalising misogynistic beliefs is, no surprise, not an adequate argument against women's rights. But I know it won't stop you from scurrying off elsewhere to parrot it, much like how anything I write here is coming out the other ear for you.

People saying "I'm a feminist" or "I'm not sexist" or "men are GC" or "I'm a dragon" might be valid to QT because the basis of that ideology is that any statement has validity by virtue of it being a statement made by a person. But a literal toddler can make empty claims. At the end of the day, the issue isn't in people bullshitting that they're something they're not - it's in the basis behind these beliefs. Are the people calling themselves feminists advocating actual equality for women, or is their claim to being feminists as valid as the claim to being a dragon?

I am a feminist who supports the trans community.

You have consistently lied and gaslit women here about the misogynistic oppression they experience, ignored all the statistics proving you wrong, claimed women's protections are based in sexism, played dumb over the patriarchy and failed to rationalise even a single point you've made because you realise how incredibly misogynistic you'd sound doing it. The only comments you didn't ignore were the ones simple enough to allow you to parrot the same dismantled statements, rinse and repeat. This behaviour from QT is so consistent you could literally write a bot to do it.

Now, I won't deny that you can call yourself feminist, much like how you can call yourself a dragon with 6 heads. What I will claim is that all of your behaviour and arguments are based in typical patriarchal gaslighting, and this claim is based in a number of replies going in detail over why your claims are ignorant or straight up lying. You ignoring countless evidence against your misogynistic claims means your misogyny goes beyond just a lack of awareness - it is ideological wilful ignorance.

On another forum I once asked a question specifically to feminists, and a user (who identifies as a cis woman) replied "how can anyone not be a feminist?"

Uuh, by believing in patriarchal ideals? Everyone should be feminist, but feminism exists in the first place because we live in a patriarchy where almost all men are deeply misogynistic, and almost all women are traumatised by their misogyny and groomed into thinking it's acceptable.

I also heard from other people that men can't be feminists, only allies. Which one is it?

Depends on how invested you are in sucking up to men. I've heard that the Earth is flat. I've also heard that the Earth is round.

someone told me I was a feminist simply because I supported equality

Funny how the vast majority of men also believe they're 100% not-sexist and support equality, and yet statistics (and just looking around you) paint a different picture. Trying to bring feminism closer to people by telling anyone they can bullshit that they're feminist doesn't actually make feminism win. It's like getting kids to eat broccoli by calling candy "broccoli". Sure, you've made the people who think the candy has magically turned into broccoli happy now, but the kids are not getting any healthier.

adungitit · 2021-05-02T15:55:17+00:00

including one party coming to the realization that he or she is same-sex attracted, those with children, particularly young children, still usually place a great deal of emphasis on the wellbeing of their children and try to manage the split in ways that won't cause undue harm and pain to the kids.

lol yeah, no. Men tend to run off and leave women and children to fend for themselves because the man's gotta live his new life to the fullest. Stories of women abandoned by their gay husbands are a dime a dozen, and as usual, they are expected to support their husbands for the sake of the family and looking tolerant, and are called homophobes if they don't show endless support and compassion towards the men who lied to them (and frequently cheated on them) for years and ran off with their male lovers. Men constantly show disregard for their spouses and children, treat them as accessories and abandon them when their dicks get distracted by something, regularly skip out on providing any financial support and claim that they shouldn't even be expected to do it. Hence why the number of single fathers is miniscule compared to single mothers. This still does not make homosexuality or divorce unethical. Things are not defined as ethical only if everyone involved is perfectly mature and civil at all times.

it also often comes with downsides, particularly for close family members and for work colleagues who now are expected to share toilet, changing and shower facilities with someone of the opposite sex.

This is the problem with "transwomen are women", not physical transitioning.

children distressed over this dramatic change in their home lives have actually been taken aside in school to be "educated" into providing their parent with the 100% supportive response that gender ideologues consider proper.

Would you treat it as equally morally reprehensible to do the same with children distressed by divorce, or homosexuality? Kids being distressed by something =/= that something being unethical. What a childish mindset.

there are ways to go about ending a marriage, partnership or friendship so that the negative impact on all parties who might be affected is minimized.

Is that why so many of them end up as traumatising disasters?

adungitit · 2021-05-02T13:12:38+00:00

Mind explaining, if female-on-male violence is as much of a problem as vice versa, why half of all female homicide victims are murdered by their opposite-sex partners, while for men that number is in single digits? Sadly, I don't expect you to actually acknowledge that the horrid violence which makes women fear for their lives is perpetuated by men - liberalism has already decided that this is just one big conspiracy invented by misandrist women to make men look bad. But I'm wondering how you can justify the ridiculously lopsided murder statistics, many of which are a direct result precisely of abusive relationships. How do you blame women and "bad feminists" for that and look yourself in the mirror in the morning?

adungitit · 2021-05-02T06:34:16+00:00

By this logic divorce should be unethical because it ruins families and because men use it to skip out on parental responsibilities. Or really anything that might make other people or family members uncomfortable. Being attracted to the same sex has made a ton of people uncomfortable and ruined marriages and friendships. That doesn't make it unethical.

adungitit · 2021-05-02T06:19:49+00:00

Men screwing their families over for the sake of their dicks isn't really different from standard male behaviour, neither is men abusing women's rights for the same purpose. The fact that transitioning is regularly used by self-centered misogynistic narcissistic men doesn't make transitioning inherently misogynistic and narcissistic.

"Transitioning" is an inherently social, attention-seeking enterprise that always requires an audience just as much as it requires looking glasses and costume changes.

Therein lies the problem: requiring constant audience participation in order to reassure the trans person of something that isn't true. This isn't the issue with physical transitioning itself, though. I don't think getting plastic surgeries to imitate the physical characteristics of women is inherently misogynistic, as long as claims aren't made that said plastic surgeries and an artificially-induced hormonal imbalance count as womanhood. Certainly misogynistic ideas about men and women underline most of the motivations for transitioning, but the result, a man with plastic surgeries and an artificially-induced hormonal imbalance, isn't actively harmful to women as long as there is an awareness that this isn't what being a woman actually is.

other low-wage service personnel they tend to to lay into and try to get fired for such crimes as "misgendering" them

lol are you seriously trying to blame trans people for upholding poverty? Come on. Pandering to the customer has always been a part of work, and customers getting mad when you don't humor them has always carried risk. I've seen GC do this and it's laughable: poor people not being able to understand or keep up with (hypothetical) social progress isn't a reason to stall or negate said progress. Focus on explaining why said "progress" isn't progress at all and is harmful to women, instead of basically saying it's too hard to understand.

those who "transition" and who support "transitioners" tend to be extremely racist - particularly against black people and Jews - and prejudiced against the disabled as well.

This is just ridiculous. You might as well say that for most groups, especially any group composed of men. People can be backwards and bigoted but still deserve rights. If you believe these things aren't rights (much like how being owned a sex slave shouldn't be a male right), and if you believe that these rights are directly harmful to marginalised groups (not just "Well a lot of them happen to be racist!"), then argue that, instead of claiming that something is bad by virtue of association.

Accommodating people's "transitions" always mean some other people - girls & women especially, but many boys & men too - will be subtly coerced or forced into censoring their own feelings & biting their tongues.

Expecting people to "censor" views seen as harmful is not a bad thing. We all censor our views for social purposes, and should. I do want a white supremacist to "censor" their idea that anyone non-white is biologically inferior. The question is which views should be perceived as harmful and not normalised and spread freely, and which shouldn't.

they are telling the world that being female is simply an idea in men's heads, that being a woman means conforming to sexist stereotypes and the most regressively misogynistic caricatures, and that any man can become a woman simply by donning long locks, some lippy and a frock and saying so.

First of all, now you're talking about social transitioning. But how much resonance would these statements have if we didn't live in a society where we ARE told that this is what defines women? Trans people didn't make these things up, they are just abusing what is already in place for validation and putting it on steroids. The specifically trans rights take on it, where this is an integral part of one's being and criticising or even discussing it is violence because recognising reality makes them feel suicidal, that can be pinned onto the movement itself.

expressing and perpetuating the sexism, misogyny and homophobia that underlies and drives transgenderism is perfectly fine

These things are expressed in day-to-day life by everyone. The real point is the ways in which trans ideology is uniquely misogynistic and harmful, instead of standard misogynistic and harmful.

adungitit · 2021-04-30T22:49:02+00:00

The problem isn't with women not giving men the benefit of the doubt (again). The problem is with men consistently working and advocating against women's rights. Trying to label women as bigots for noticing that men are misogynistic towards them is a common tactic, and it exists to favour the patriarchy.

adungitit · 2021-03-18T06:15:15+00:00

If you are QT, answer the question. If you want to have a conversation about something else, either make a new thread or message me privately, though I can't promise I'll have the patience to hold your baby hand and engage in the most basic talking points that have been torn to shreds countless times. What you shouldn't do is disappear every time you get your ass handed to you and then pop back up in unrelated threads with the same MRA wanking hoping that I'll derail to that, to which you can disappear again when you get your ass handed to you, again.

adungitit · 2021-03-15T21:21:39+00:00

I don't think most people would deny that men who believe themselves to be women are different from men who don't, and that masculine men who put "she/her" in their twitter bios are different from crossdressing fetishists who are different from GNC men who are different from transsexuals etc. But you can say that for anything, really. Being different results in a different treatment. But whether society mistakes a man for a woman shouldn't suddenly make said man comparable to a woman. It would only make some of his experiences comparable to a woman. The fact that these people are still physically male and have years of male upbringing doesn't change. Now, can a man experience being treated as a woman by society in a limited capacity because he consistently makes them think he's female? Yes. That doesn't make him some kind of a woman, though, or his experiences comparable to actual women, and the staggering amount of misogynistic male trans people shows how little "living as a woman" affects male misogynistic views, biases and upbringing. Men speaking in the name of women is damaging to women, regardless of how these men identify or how much they claim they understand women. Think of all the men who wish they could be women so they could get easy sex. They cannot comprehend how this plays into the objectification that women are saddled with their entire lives, nor have they ever experienced the sexual difficulties that women have with their anatomy and patriarchal male-centric sex (which men ofc insist is all for the women's sake because ofc men know best what women want and need, despite straight men having the worst track record of satisfying their partners out of anyone 🤔). Even if said man turned into a woman, how would you explain to him that his interpretation is wrong and rooted in his male biases that make him glorify male systems that favour his sexuality and his supremacy? He would insist until he was blue in the face how good women have it sexually, despite evidence to the contrary being everywhere around him, even if he ignores everything women say (as men do).

The life of a man who wants to be a woman is entirely different from a woman. The experiences of the man are always going to be coloured by him being male and revolve around convincing himself that he is female as strongly as he possibly can for the sake of his well-being. This is something women, due to being women, do not experience. Like it isn't even on their radar, much like how it's not on one's radar to convince themselves they're a vertebrate or a human. Now, the patriarchy does make women feel distress and sells them the notion that, due to being female, they need to affirm themselves through damaging gender roles, but this is extremely harmful to women and results in a host of mental issues, anxieties and insecurities (which is by design - these are the traits that the patriarchy wants women to have so they have to be dependent on men for affirmation). What male trans people want is to be treated as women, but what women need is to be treated as human. These two motivations coupled with one's upbringing make for a very different and not particularly comparable life and mentality. By virtue of being male, male trans people are always going to approach life as a man who wants to be a woman, and their mental well-being is going to depend on how successfully they convince themselves of this. Meanwhile, the "cis" gender role that is so often thrown at women as a sign of their privilege is a form of oppression, chains that women need to break, not embrace. So even if they're both outwardly treated the same, the biases and life experiences they bring are going to colour their experiences.

My point is, the reason why we're against labelling men as women just because they "live as women" is that merely experiencing a part of your life being treated as a woman isn't the same as literally being female forever, from the moment you left the womb and couldn't even form a thought to even after you end up a skeleton, with no regards to your thoughts or feelings, be they of affirmation or hatred. And I just don't see any benefit to automatically labelling men who pass as having experiences comparable to women when so many male trans people are both misogynistic and very much male. Hell, the trans people who pass best tend to be especially misogynistic, because they tend to abuse all the patriarchal social cues that people almost instinctively associate with women, and frequently feed on their misogynistic male confidence and assumptions about women. I simply haven't seen any evidence that just "passing" makes a man less problematic than your usual man and as such I don't approve of labelling these men women in any capacity.

adungitit · 2021-03-14T15:14:51+00:00

Can you explain how it's any different when you say you don't hate trans people and a racist says they don't hate black people?

I dunno, can you explain the difference between a racist telling a black person their brain makes them dumber vs male trans people telling women their brains make them like pink and wear dresses? For all the "I'm not misogynistic, but..." I have yet to see even one single definition of gender that wasn't based in patriarchal stereotypes or like, ideas straight from the 19th century (from the less self-aware, usually male, cases). If the worst thing you can use to compare us to racists is that we both claim to recognise reality and have a worldview not based in blind hatred, well, you might have a point, but you could also pin that on almost any other ideology in existence. Meanwhile the trans movement's consistent attempts to push backwards brainsex theories and equate womanhood with gender roles and patriarchal presentations DO bring to mind racists advocating whites and blacks to stick to their proper natural roles that their brains made them for, and also the notions that the real racism is not pretending that everyone is white.

at some point you stop 'telling the truth like it is' and start dogwhistling for the GCers in the crowd

Is recognising that the Earth is round dogwhistling to roundearthers? Is recognising that evolution exists dogwhistling to atheists? Women did not start demanding that their bodies and rights be recognised to make trans people feel bad. They did it because 1. Women having a different physiology is a simple fact, and we needed different accommodations for this physiology, not because it's "UwU so validating!" but because that's the reality of us being female 2. Because society has assigned a metric ton of baggage and gendered brainwashing to our female bodies (baggage that male trans people are relying on for gender validation since the first point disqualifies them), we need special care and focus in order to deal with a lifetime of subserviant traumatising upbringing in a misogynistic society. 3. We also, due to our female physiology, need protection from men who will prey on us specifically for being female.

We do not, as women and feminists, recognise that we are women to be "attention-whores" and misandrists. We do it because this is both our lived reality, and something we're targeted for with oppression.

You keep using words like truth and fact without actually giving me any game-changing truth or fact, you just SAY it, and that's the problem. I understand that physically I'm not biologically female.

Sooo...they're not saying the truth...and then you literally admit you understand they're saying the truth. And then you say that you don't like this truth being repeated just because the truth makes you feel bad, and you don't like feminist women who have suffered oppression due to actually being female talking about the nature of their oppression without pretending that their womanhood is all in their head because, again, that makes you feel bad. Well cry me a river.

now she has active anxiety attacks about even talking with her mom

Here's my little story: I don't care about feminism making misogynists feel bad. I used to, and then I realised that my rights and humanity do not deserve to be eroded to make men and not-like-other-girls-women feel better about themselves. So any time anyone tries to get me to shed tears over misogynists not being able to live their life to the fullest because of those meanie feminazis advocating women's rights, I just...don't give a crap anymore? Like not one bit. I am done feeling bad for misogynists trying to prop themselves up by taking women's rights away and reverting feminist progress decades back.

she's a horrible manipulative person who will start crying if my friend even talks in her normal, feminine voice on the phone.

And some would call it manipulative for men to fake "girly" speaking patterns and take lessons on how to "sound like a girl" in order to pretend they're something they're not. Some would also call it manipulative to start crying any time someone doesn't pretend that they're a "reel gurl" because their girlbrain compells them to wear dresses and makeup. And yet all of these things are seen as 100% normal and brave for trans people to do.

I would also say that girls being pushed into surgeries and a lifetime maintaining an artificially induced hormonal imbalance because they feel they're "not like other girls" is doing horrific damage to girls in their most vulnerable years where they deal with unwanted sexualisation of their body parts, the constant dehumanisation, objectification and ridiculous standards of their appearance.

With what social equity.

LOL I'm sorry, trans people could force everyone to pretend that being female is literally all in their head and to use whatever wtf pronoun someone demands they use or get fired within the span of a few years, but when it comes to actually doing shit for themselves that doesn't require them to actively advocate for the removal of women's rights and protections, suddenly it's "We're so poor and outnumbered and no-one listens to us" :,'(((

adungitit · 2020-11-20T16:50:21+00:00

That is...decidedly not true. Like, not in the slightest. We can't have a discussion if you'll lie about the most basic things that the opposition is taking issue with.

Also trans people are literally seen as lesser by people who don’t respect our identity.

So are racists and otherkin and misogynists etc. If you'd read what I wrote, you'd understand that I do not consider it an obligation to validate someone's identity just for it being an identity, and especially not when it goes against reality but even more importantly advocates patriarchal ideas. Again, provide a line of reasoning beyond "I am racist, and you need to accept it because I identify that way".

adungitit · 2021-11-28T17:07:06+00:00

I got rid of something I didn't want. Now that it's gone, I am happier than I was to have it. So for me, I was solving a very basic problem with a very basic solution.

The issue is that amputating body parts that are perceived as shameful or wrong etc. in a society constantly sending women these messages shouldn't be the solution, even if it seems "simple". It's also incredibly simple for people with body integrity dysphoria to amputate their limbs, or for gay people to stay in the closet. A solution being simple isn't the best for that reason, especially in lieu of mental illness or trauma.

Whether or not someone "cares" if I "cry over it" is irrelevant; that wouldn't have solved the problem one way or another.

That's very debatable. I do believe that if women were not hated and treated as subhuman to such a degree, that they wouldn't have to reach for these surgeries, medication and various misogynistic ideologies that promise male approval in order to fix what isn't actually the problem. I can't fault women for getting these procedures done and falling for these ideologies because being seen as a woman sucks and everyone knows it. But women seeing themselves as the problem for being female and ironically being convinced they're unique in the world for it, never changed anything. Amputating perfectly healthy and normal body parts, as well as other unnecessary procedures that come in the same package, should never be seen as a "simple solution".

??? I... don't think any of this. I assume women are a diverse population who probably each have a unique relationship with their own bodies. I don't speak for any of them.

This seems like another trend in the trans (rights) community: pretending that all those women are sooo impossible to understand and that surely said misunderstanding must be validation of one's non-womanness. I have lost count of the women who say they don't need feminism or the women who are not like other girls, and despite their indignation, I have not once been convinced by people shoving their heads in the sand regarding their physical reality because they don't want to hear it.

Again, no one in the universe asked any woman, regardless of which pronouns she uses or which surgeries she's gotten, how she feels about being female. The simple reality is that these were the cards we have been dealt. The fact that women deal differently with the realities of being female, and that surgeries and drugs exist, doesn't actually change the fact that they are female.

I didn't remove my breasts based on how women feel about breasts, I had my breasts removed based on how I felt about my own breasts.

Except you would literally have nothing to remove if you weren't in the same basket as all women who feel a certain way about their female bodies because they are female. So trying to pretend this is something that has nothing to do with you is like me trying to pretend that I don't understand English or that I don't have two feet. Remember, no-one cared how you felt about being female, nor did they care how I felt about it, nor that woman, nor that one. You didn't get VIP access to a character creator any more than any of us did. I'm not trying to be cruel here, but trans people have to understand that their wishes don't actually change reality and that self hatred or cosmetic surgeries aren't something unique to them. Your experience of hating being female and hating how your female body is treated is one that can only ever be experienced by a female person. The choice of modifying or amputating parts of one's female body via surgeries and medical procedures for whatever reason is one that can only be made by a female person. And pretending like all the other women wished their breasts into existence because they're sooo foreign and complicated isn't going to change that.

But I'm still happier to have had my breasts removed.

I honestly don't intend to debate whether or not you're happy. I have met people who were made happy by all sorts of things. Hell, cults and drugs have such power over people precisely because they make them happy and provide a simple alternative to a shitty reality. Men are happy having women as bang maids, and guess how much that changes my ideas on feminism? The simple fact is, I don't want an "easy fix" in the form of amputations, surgeries and a lifetime of an artificially induced hormonal imbalance just so one could avoid being treated like an object for having the gall to be born female. Again, I don't fault women for doing it, and it certainly seems better than enduring the "gender validating" shit that women are supposed to be made euphoric by, but I do fault the misogynistic ideologies and shoving one's head in the sand because we're supposed to already have "simple solutions". My issue isn't really with how happy you as one single individual are, my concern is with how the views I keep seeing trans people/supporters espouse keep feeding into this idea that women have an easy fix to misogyny through surgeries, medication or just plain ol' pretending and denial.

It's probably hyperbolic to call it 'euphoria'

But the fact that you can feel shame over your female body and euphoria over superficial modifications to your female biology is an experience only a woman can have. That's kind of the point. No amount of claiming that being female is something that doesn't concern you or that you supposedly don't understand erases reality because at the end of the day, none of us were asked about how we feel any more than you were.

adungitit · 2021-08-22T10:54:07+00:00

Do you think conservatives and radical feminists will be okay with trans men who pass using the women's bathroom and not harass them at all?

Women fearing male presence in their spaces and policing female spaces to keep men out is not "harassment".

This problem would be easily solved if people's IDs accurately reflected their sex. Women are right to call you out if they think you're a man violating their spaces, and you could clear this misunderstanding by confirming you are female. Your argument is like saying that we shouldn't have any restrictions on selling alcohol and cigarettes to minors because a small number of kids can be mistaken for adults.

adungitit · 2021-08-18T19:33:20+00:00

I don't understand what you're trying to say. How does assuming everyone's actions are genuine imply that everyone should say they're trans? How is it possible for everyone to be trans and for transphobia (however that's defined) to be a result of self-hatred?

adungitit · 2021-08-10T13:40:44+00:00

Most mainstream feminist subreddits and other feminist and social justice groups see gender critical posts as outrageously sexist.

Men also think feminism is a sexist matriarchal movement advocating male genocide. People being stupid and ignorant doesn't really say much beyond the fact that they're stupid and ignorant. Liberal feminism and trans activism has continuously failed to argue their points without advocating patriarchal ideology. You can see this play out numerous times on this very sub. Just saying that a group is "sexist" because it gets men's dicks angry doesn't mean a thing. Can you actually prove it? There has yet to be a single trans activist that's been up to the task and capable of forming arguments beyond "Transwomen are women because I say so". The reasons why trans activism and liberal feminism go against female rights have been continuously explained by GC, and trans activism has never been able to even attempt to disprove any of it.

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access.

So...you acknowledge the reality of women's biology...but women themselves are a figment of imagination? How do you work with this level of cognitive dissonance? It's like saying "I acknowledge human biology, but I don't think humans are real"

I think restrooms and changing rooms should be gender neutral.

And the threat of male violence, assault and harassment that they exist in the first place to protect women from are just...what? Going to be whisked away if women stop being so exclusionary towards men?

Wait, are you the same person who's continuously lied about the reality of violence and harassment that women face at the hands of men even after being given copious evidence proving you wrong?

fetuses can't change their gender.

Why?

I said although people AFAB are mostly treated like men, they will still be subject to issues specific fo people AFAB.

And why do you think that is? Who do you think made it so that "AFAB" people don't have penises and need sanitary pads for their periods? The TERFs? The patriarchy? Cis women?

adungitit · 2021-08-09T20:37:19+00:00

Your way of "fighting sexism" seems to be to deny that sex matters - or when you do acknowledge that sex is real and does sometimes matter, your tack is to minimize how much it matters and to gloss over and refuse to see or address most of the RL situations in which it matters.

Sounds like standard liberal feminism to me.

adungitit · 2021-07-29T23:10:39+00:00

the average transwoman is at least 30-45% stronger than us.

Or at least the average transitioning one. With selfID, men don't even need to transition, and even expecting them to is bigoted and controlling.

adungitit · 2021-07-29T23:04:08+00:00

Impractical and requiring a federal mandate. Ive said it’s impossible for trans women to create those spaces ourselves.

Boo fucking hoo. Yes, tell us women more how impossible it is to create special spaces for us, we definitely don't have a clue about those struggles (also do it while trying to dismantle these spaces in the same breath).

It's "impractical" to advocate your own spaces, but it's not "impractical" to dismantle women's spaces and force everyone to call men women because of what pronouns they use? Trans people sure have a ton of power for being so voiceless.

Two people are in a small shelter. The shelter is surrounded by tigers. If one persons says to the other “get out of this shelter, you can build your own to protect you from the tigers” does that theoretical possibility protect the second person from tigers in the mean time?

Uh, no. One person is in a shelter that they've made for themselves. There's a bunch of tigers outside. One tiger is bullied and bitten by the others, so it says "Let me in, these tigers are dangerous! I'm weaker than them! I'm one of you!" and the person refuses and tells them to build their own shelter, does that protect the tiger in the mean time? Should the person be made to share their space with the tiger?

Also, we'd be more understanding if any trans person advocated their own spaces. This is not even in the picture anywhere because it'd be "invalidating". In fact, more people are advocating dismantling gendered spaces in general than creating trans spaces.

adungitit · 2021-07-29T22:46:21+00:00

Most replies seem to just say "Because it's factually untrue" and while, yes, that is indeed the case, what's much more important is why these ideas are misogynistic and regressive.

First, we don't define a woman as anyone who "passes" as a woman, otherwise we'd just call butch or androgynous women men. We define them as female people. To define them according to how much they pass is to define women according to an artificial harmful patriarchal construct, rather than the reality of being female. Women do not become female through "passing"; they are born female and they remain female always (even skeletons can be sexed). Their female physiology doesn't go anywhere or change regardless of how they feel about it. A man might trick me into thinking he's a woman, but that still doesn't make him a woman any more than me thinking a butch woman is male makes her a man, and it certainly doesn't make him more of a woman than her (which plenty of QT people will actually argue).

Second, gendered socialisation is ingrained into people from their youngest most impressionable years, and this is impossible to avoid. The results of this are very apparent in the majority of trans people, especially since their ideology is not conductive to questioning gender roles on which they rely on for their identity. Transitioning does not erase this socialisation, hence why it's harmful to women to let men speak in the name of women and share their spaces (similar problems like with, say, male feminists). It is also harmful to tell girls who are saddled with very stressful freedom-limiting misogynistic and beauty expectations treating them like sex objects that they're trans if this cruel reality causes them fear and anxiety.

Third, trans people are extremely invested in and euphoric over performing a certain gender role, to the point of suicidal ideation if they can't do it. Plenty of them have fetishistic reasons for this revolving around emasculation and female inferiority. This has nothing in common with women who are women because they're female, nor men who are male because they're male. Women or men did not choose their sex, just as they didn't choose their shoe size or their eye colour. As such, even when male trans people pass and experience patriarchy for themselves, they tend to view it through euphoric "Imma real gurl now!" lens (which is why they often hold sexual harassment in fond memory as validating). Trans people in general tend to promote regressive ideologies for validation (things such as dismantling gendered spaces, gaslighting about gendered issues, brainsex theories, defining gender by gender stereotypes), and women are pushed into accepting this in order to validate them, both because women's rights always have to take second place due to what an integral ever-present facet of society their oppression is, and because women are socialised to be endlessly accommodating.

adungitit · 2021-07-29T22:17:50+00:00

I mean, it's also proven that a penis and a clit are different organs just by using your fucking eyes, and yet somehow we're getting medical professionals pretending like they're not. If you can buy that, you can buy anything.

adungitit · 2021-05-30T19:31:16+00:00

Do you realise you're being transphobic with these statements? A man's vagina is a "bonus hole" and his clit is a "penis". Why are you refusing to do anything with their trans male genitalia on the basis of not being attracted to women?

adungitit · 2021-05-30T17:33:20+00:00

Trans men are not women and do not wish to be classed with women.

Women said they don't need to vote and that being a stay-at-home wife obedient to her husband is "empowering" and that being beaten by their husbands isn't wrong. Women saying misogynistic things and trying to suck up to the patriarchy doesn't discredit feminism one bit. We've already been through this.

GCs shouldn't be forcing narratives on trans men, just like trans men don't force narratives on them.

Uuuh, enforcing a belief in gendersouls, removing women's protections and advancements in women's rights, telling women they're privileged for being female and gaslighting them in regards to their oppression IS forcing a narrative onto us, or rather women in general. You can't both advocate the removal of rights that a disenfranchised group has fought for, advocate for a completely unfounded regressive worldview with gendersouls to which women's rights need to be sacrificed AND claim that you're not being in any way political.

adungitit · 2021-05-26T10:17:35+00:00

You are conflating things to suggest that femininity is going away. It isn't.

Except...it is? Conservatives are raging that men and women are losing sight of what they're supposed to be. Previous generations would've been shocked at the state that gender roles are currently in.

This is an extreme position few men or women adhere to or believe in.

Wow, a man can lie through his teeth that misogyny isn't a widespread issue! Stop the presses! This changes everything!

Misogyny cannot simultaneously be "extremely rare position" and dominate society everywhere. Women cannot consistently be screwed over by men and gender norms going centuries back, and also have it "not happen" because...well, men can lie that it doesn't happen!

How are minor symbolic items objectively damaging for women?

I thought the mystical ethereal feminine essence cannot be defined in such simplistic material ways?

I'm sorry I don't recognise this position.

Wow, a man can lie through his teeth that misogyny isn't a widespread issue! Stop the presses! This changes everything!

To me you are denying women agency.

lmao a male supremacist jerking his dick to gender essentialism is talking about denying women agency. The lack of self-awareness is hilarious. Here's a tip: if you sound like a misogynistic piece of shit to yourself, that's a sign to reconsider your views, not to wank even harder.

The variety does mean majority.

Uh...ok? So...you'll stop using outdated publishing norms revolving around sexual assault and male supremacy to claim what women TruLy WaNt, right? Of course you won't.

I thought "feminine" was wrong.

You're trying to derail again. You claimed women are only into masculine men. I noted the fact that women constantly show interest in non-masculine men to the point of this being a joke, so the whole "women just go after alpha chads cuz ladybrains" mythology isn't making sense.

Heterosexual relationships could be better. I don't see these women being happier if they give up "femininity" or indeed men give up "masculinity."

lol I love how you acknowledge the problem exists, and then in typical male fashion switch to "but things are k as they are". Wow, a man can lie that misogyny isn't a problem! That changes everything!

I'm sorry I find this an extreme position offers no way out.

Great, so you've realised you have no way of making your bullshit make sense. Now are you going to stop repeating it?

Of course you won't.

How?

Nonconforming women do so because they want to be free from constant objectification that women are put though. They don't get off to being masculine, it's not a fetish, they just want to be seen as human beings, but under androcentrism, human=male (to the point of this literally being reflected in language), while women are caricatured aberrations. Women who think they're men do so because they can't associate themselves with these caricatured aberrations. Men who think of themselves as women do so because they think of women as caricatured aberrations, and get off to roleplaying that. Hence why misogyny reigns supreme even among the people who pretend they're all about "gender-fuckery", while in male communities it's straight up male supremacy, the sort that's the norm in any male community. Liberal feminist communities are more about trying to make the patriarchy empowering and waving their fingers at it only when it gets a bit too much, but they don't literally push overt male supremacist ideas and bioessentialism the way that all male communities do.

If a nonconforming woman likes masculine men then she is conforming to gender and fetishizing masculinity in men.

A woman who's brainwashed into liking masculinity is suffering from internalised misogyny. Masculinity is "fetishised" insofar as men are highly rewarded for being selfish, narcissistic and phallocentric, and women are told putting up with this is the only way heterosexuality is possible because men and their supremacist history are the ones who set up sexual norms.

If a nonconforming woman likes feminine men then she is fetishizing femininity in men.

It's almost like femininity exists in order to subjugate women, hence the misogynistic draw to it and the cycles of abuse and trauma that result from it!

But let me guess, you can simply lie through your teeth that these things aren't happening, and that will change everything.

It doesn't make sense, except to condemn everyone.

We'd never want to make men's dicks feel bad, would we?

adungitit · 2021-05-26T09:32:24+00:00

Women said they don't need to vote and that being a stay-at-home wife obedient to her husband is "empowering" and that being beaten by their husbands isn't wrong. Women and men say misogynistic things literally all the time. If just saying "I'm not misogynistic, but..." changed anything, we wouldn't live under the patriarchy, because most people claim this, and yet most are misogynistic.

adungitit · 2021-05-26T09:23:25+00:00

transmen are seen more often as victims unable to really make true decisions the way male trans people do.

Uuh, yeah. Cuz they're women. Women work from within patriarchal norms that seek to subjugate them all the time. Their agency, dignity and humanity are constantly stripped from them in favour of men and they are groomed since babies to know their place in the hierarchy. The idea that the sexes freely choose the patriarchy because women just naturally enjoy being subjugated simply is not acceptable under feminism. The same argument has been used to stall and sabotage women's rights since forever.

Men are narcissistic abusers because they're rewarded for it. Women bend over backwards to accommodate them because they're punished if they don't. Male and female trans people don't act particularly different from male and female people in general.

“not like the other girls” comes up a lot, which seems to me a like a ridiculous way to talk about someone’s struggle with dysphoria

Well first of all, "not like other girls" is literally used as evidence of being trans: "I hated dresses/I played with boys/I like STEM/I hated pink". These girls mistaken their body insecurities, anxieties and dislike of objectification, which the vast majority of women have dealt with since literal childhood, as "not being women". Society, even feminism, sells the image of a feminine woman happy in her own objectification compared to a man who's just...human. Girls think there's something wrong with them if they're not indoctrinated properly because they don't feel the gender "reward" for playing into gendered expectations. They mistaken their wish to be perceived as human beings as wanting to be men, in an androcentric society that divides the sexes into "human" and "female", and assume that the feminine women, who are just as rife with the same insecurities as them, must enjoy their subjugation on some base level, when in reality they're coping with the only role that is given to them. A lot of liberal feminism tries its damnest to sell "femininity" as normal and empowering to women. "Femininity isn't actually oppressive, doing these feminine things can be liberating if you just convince yourself it is!" And ofc the girls who don't buy into that wonder what's wrong with them if they don't get enjoyment out of being treated or thinking of themselves in this way, and they do if they think of themselves in neutral terms. A lot of us know exactly how this feels, we know the self-hate and social disdain that girls go through for being female and the futility of trying to play nice with patriarchal expectations, except radical feminism has given us a way to recognise these feelings for what they are, instead of trying to legitimise them through brainsex ideas or legitimising gender roles as some form of gendersoul innate to every person.

I feel like it would really bother me if I was a transman

I'm bothered by trans people hating women (of which I am one) literally all the time, but they don't seem to mind one bit. Why should I accommodate misogynistic worldviews just because misogynists can feel bad about themselves?

adungitit · 2021-05-26T08:22:08+00:00

So women never physically harm other women? Gotcha!

Close enough to "never" that we don't need any protections from it. And even if it does happen, there isn't likely to be a huge strength and power imbalance in the aggressor's favour. Moreover, women do not prey on and attack other women for sexual and sadistic purposes. This simply does not happen, and no, it wouldn't turn into a problem even if you could dig up 1 out of a million of women who have experienced this. The person below provided the relevant statistics, not that any person who can use their fucking eyes should need them. You can simply talk to women to know that most of them have had experiences with men following them, grabbing them, catcalling them, creeping on them to straight up assaulting and raping them. This is not some rare exceptional event, it's a rampant issue that most women have experienced. Meanwhile, good luck finding men who have been preyed on in such a way, especially by women. You won't, hence why the mere idea of a predatory woman is a joke in most men's eyes, a fun harmless little fantasy not to be taken seriously.

Now, are you going to keep lying through your teeth some more? Are you going to give these women the usual "You're just overreacting/making it all/hysterical/you should take it as a compliment" bs? Or maybe you want to call government agencies liars for correctly identifying the criminals' sex? Or is this going to be too much even for you, so you'll just conveniently disappear and re-appear elsewhere to lie some more in hopes that no-one will call you out on it?

adungitit · 2021-05-18T13:53:20+00:00

Because it's not a MRA thing, it's a man thing, and most men believe it to some extent (even many women). Even in history classes or books you can still see women's subjugation passed off as "fatal female sexuality" or "the power that women had over rulers/husbands" and being sold the notion of "different but equal" in regards to historical marriages. I have seen even men who claim to be anti-MRA parrot these exact same myths.

adungitit · 2021-05-14T14:51:45+00:00

Wow, you actually said something instead of pathetically trying to worm out of your own words. Still didn't actually clarify what you were supposed to, but hey, we're getting there. Actually probably not. I doubt you'll be able to go beyond repeating "buh dick says girls like Chads".

Your claim is femininity is bad and a construction of the patriarchy.

It...objectively is? Women are not born in high heels and dresses. Hell, those things weren't even associated with women until relatively recently. More and more women are wearing "masculine" clothing, more and more are taking on "masculine" responsibilities that have always been denied to them. Men are whining about this the same as always and jerking each other off about how incapable women are and how much happier they were or would be back by their masters' feet, and women are trying to coddle their egos by promising that they can still be sexy for them even if they're "empowered". This has been happening even before women could vote.

Femininity and masculinity are objectively damaging for women. You can lie through your teeth that they're not, but both women's experiences and statistics speak for themselves.

I don't think that's how the majority of women view it.

Women trying to haggle with the patriarchy and compromise with the dominant class for their acceptance has always been the case, as well as men using normalised oppression of women as evidence that women like being oppressed. Women being groomed and brainwashed to accept their oppression is nothing new. Women used to accept they don't need to vote, or have careers, or go outside, or be educated, or deserve sexual satisfaction and that they deserve to be beaten and owned by their husbands. All of these have been used by men to argue that women are happy in their oppression.

I'd also add the majority of women are attracted to masculinity.

Let me guess, because romance novels? Those are getting pushed out by things like fanfics which show a variety that would never be apparent just from the stuff published based on what women should be into. Moreover, a lot of women are into "feminine" pop stars and gay men to the point of it being a joke. Women not enjoying misogynistic sex, being objectified and men pestering them to do things for male benefit is seen as an integral part of heterosexual relationships and while men indeed love it and as always insist that women do, too (with ofc infinite orgasms that they're giving them in this arrangement because they're just so good like that), most women have a different story to tell. The embarrassingly low rates of orgasm for straight (and bi) women, as well as widespread traumatic experiences tells a different story from the submissive-housewife-happy-in-her-place fairy tale. Men proclaim these as misandrist overreactions and/or just ignore them no matter how normal it is to hear them, and apply survivorship bias to any woman who's proudly stockhold-syndrome'd herself into liking the misogynistic androcentric status quo that is given to women as the only option, and avoid the masses of unhappy, neglected, anxious and traumatised women who are sick of male bullshit. This sort of wilful ignorance and lying through their teeth that men engage in for the sake of prettying up the status quo is different from women, who, even when they say things that men want them to say, are usually still either aware of or suffer from the negative impacts of the things that they're pretending to be okay with for the sake of patriarchal approval.

I don't see who you can have "good gender non conforming males" if you condemn femininity.

Most gender nonconforming male people are fetishists. They are "nonconforming" because their dicks get hard from taking on the role of inferior subhuman women. This is why misogyny is paradoxically (but actually not when you think about it) still the norm among them just like with conforming men. There is no difference between the two except what specific fetish they're jerking to (which they picked up from other men in the first place). Men do not perceive women as human beings, they perceive them as caricatures, dolls created for their entertainment, so to men, gender nonconformity has nothing to do with freeing oneself from the gender hierarchy from which they still derive their entire worldview from, and everything to do with donning a patriarchal costume, a male idea of a woman and all the inferiority contained in it. This is in stark contrast with how women do nonconformity and relate to men.

adungitit · 2021-05-09T22:17:56+00:00

There is only a tiny number of people here, and even back on Reddit there were barely any QT answering.

adungitit · 2021-05-09T22:03:29+00:00

GC doesn't support the misogyny that passes for male gender nonconformity because femininity is a patriarchal construct created to oppress women. Unsurprisingly, most gender nonconforming men just have a fetish for imitating the misogynistic caricatures and the patriarchal hierarchies that their worldview revolves around. Remove their male supremacist ideology, and you lose the motivation to be "gender nonconforming"

adungitit · 2021-05-09T21:36:23+00:00

I'm not. I am susceptible to societal influence, and that includes sexist gendered upbringing, even if I'm gender nonconforming.

adungitit · 2021-05-07T06:51:20+00:00

Then title your thread as "QT: What is it with grouping"

adungitit · 2021-05-05T15:23:23+00:00

I hate how so many liberal feminists will blindly parrot these stats and try to overblow some fictional issue of female violence that they know is bullshit solely to pander to men's gaslighting and "both sides are equally bad"-mythology, while liberal men continue to incessantly excuse and sweep male abuses and misogyny under the carpet. Even when women are endlessly agreeable and expending so much effort to coddle men's feelings, men still seek to screw them over and refuse to budge from their male supremacist religion.

adungitit · 2021-05-05T13:59:56+00:00

ROFL being against trans ideologies =/= being GC. GC is feminist. You cannot be GC if you are against women's rights, because GC is a branch of feminism. Seriously, how can you people constantly base your entire worldview on an easily disprovable lie, disappear when you realise it's a lie, and STILL repeat it the next time you open your mouth? That is absolutely baffling to me.

Feminist does not equal gender critical

Radical feminism pretty much does. Feminism nowadays can mean anything from men supporting prostitution and kinky porn while actively sabotaging women's rights, to liberal feminists kissing the shoes of male trans people talking about how valid their ladybrains and makeup make them feel. All of these groups will call themselves feminists, but at some point you have to notice that fixing the actual problems and inequalities women face isn't compatible with a movement engaging in constant gaslighting and apologetics for why said problems and inequalities aren't really a problem, that they are actually "empowering" or that they even count as privileges. Nevertheless, I don't care to argue that liberals (or even conservatives) who claim they're feminists while espousing misogynistic values aren't really feminists - that's a lame attempt to divert to semantics and it doesn't actually answer the question of whether their ideologies are misogynistic.

adungitit · 2021-05-02T15:57:38+00:00

Removing breasts can cause pain?

adungitit · 2021-05-02T13:03:52+00:00

cis women are less likely to be gender critical than cis men.

??? men are known for their misogyny, which doesn't change much regardless of whether they identify as feminist or as women or whatever else. Progressive female communities on the other hand tend to dedicate a lot of discussion to the issue, even if the (sometimes even correct) conclusions tend to get drowned in coddling men's feelings. The notion that men are more gender critical than women is laughable. Even progressive liberal men don't pay gender much mind and mainly revolve their opinions on it around which porn they jack off to and wanting to be open about their fetishes. They also expect and jerk off to femininity in women. The depth of male opinions on the issue can pretty much be described by that "are traps gay" meme. Some gay men might take on a more nuanced approach to gender, but even they are getting pushed out by the loud-mouthed "just like any other dude" gay men.

adungitit · 2021-05-02T12:53:49+00:00

Nothing says feminism like writing off the patriarchy with #NotAllMen.

adungitit · 2021-04-30T22:28:03+00:00

I feel like QT women would agree to that, much like how someone would proudly claim they'd fight against a bear from the comfort of their sofa. Hell, once the inevitable happens, they might even convince themselves that this predictable outcome was all just a stroke of astonishingly bad luck, and that perhaps things would've been better if only women weren't so exclusionary and misandrist against these poor men.

It's not that QT doesn't have eyes or a brain and that they legitimately are not aware of our society's patriarchal trends, it's that they can convince themselves against all rhyme and reason that male violence is either one big conspiracy by the extremist feminazi trying to make the cool feminists look bad, or they blame women for it because they're not understanding and inclusive enough of men. It's an ideology that preys on female complacency and tendency to self-blame combined with non-stop patriarchal gaslighting.

adungitit · 2021-04-30T22:20:07+00:00

Male trans people are not interested in preserving women's rights. They are, above all, interested in validating themselves and obtaining a twisted rose-tinted view of womanhood, with amazing ideas such as sexual harassment being validating. Female trans people are, like most women, above all interested in getting male approval, even if it means throwing other women and themselves under the bus. The dynamic is old and familiar.

adungitit · 2021-04-30T22:08:25+00:00

You're saying "boys will just be boys" and are destined to harass women no matter what.

Gotta love it when liberals argue that protections of women from male violence are misandrist. Men harrassing and assaulting women is not the fault of women, nor is it up to women to fix men being fucked up and misogynistic. It's up to MEN to get their act together and stop preying on women in such high numbers that women need spaces free of them just to lead a semblance of a normal public life (which is the entire reason why feminists advocated for these spaces in the first place). Women's spaces are not the reason why men prey on women. It is absolutely fucked up to blame women and their spaces which exist as protection from male violence for the continuation of said male violence. Stripping protections of vulnerable groups because that's supposed to teach men not to assault women isn't going to make men not assault women. Even if your twisted misogynistic logic made sense, we literally have centuries of history where women lacked any spaces and protections, and guess which half of humanity specifically abused that to the point of having institutionalised ownership and rape of women, and guess which one didn't?

adungitit · 2021-03-18T09:34:44+00:00

If you want to have a conversation about something else, either make a new thread or message me privately, though I can't promise I'll have the patience to hold your baby hand and engage in the most basic talking points that have been torn to shreds countless times. What you shouldn't do is disappear every time you get your ass handed to you and then pop back up in unrelated threads with the same MRA wanking hoping that I'll derail to that, to which you can disappear again when you get your ass handed to you, again.

I'm far too essentialist for that.

QT is a misnomer, really any trans activists apply, and essentialism tends to go hand in hand with that.

adungitit · 2021-03-14T16:05:35+00:00

Great. Let me repeat: I do not give a rat's ass about misogynists feeling boo-hoo because women have rights. Nada. Not a single one. Zero. Bye!

adungitit · 2021-03-14T15:59:52+00:00

I appreciate that you have a very strong opinion on how gender dysphoria SHOULDN'T be treated

Any treatment that lets minors perform damaging cosmetic surgeries should be unacceptable. You can talk about how unfair this is, but protection of minors, much like female rights, exists for reasons other than just making trans people feel boo-hoo.

If I did not self-med when I did I would have killed myself

There are people who would've killed themselves had they not found God. There are men who would've killed themselves had they not found one of their numerous misogynistic role models. Other people's mental issues do not oblige me to pretend that harmful misogynistic ideologies are true and factual just so they would feel better.

you and everyone else can stop trying to criminalize the only treatment we have concrete evidence of working in ANY capacity.

I never said I would criminalise it. I did say that it doesn't work as well as it is portrayed to work, since it still relies on forcing the rest of society to say things that are contrary to reality for the trans person to be able to function.

adungitit · 2021-03-14T09:41:22+00:00

So, if they're not male, why do they need a lifetime of artificially injected hormones that their body could never produce specifically due to being male and as such, having male organs that produce male hormones, and not vice versa? Why does this "woman" who is "not male" have literally all the characteristics of a man and 0 of a woman? Why are these "women" 100% male if they're not male? What are trans people transitioning to and from?

adungitit · 2021-02-27T14:14:13+00:00

Clothing for little children shouldn't be separated by sex. For adults it makes a bit more sense at least, though is still gendered to a ridiculous degree.

adungitit · 2021-02-27T14:01:32+00:00

Uh, yes, everyone should be gender blind and "nonbinary" because gender is a patriarchal load of horseshit. How about actually reading into radical feminism and GC instead of thinking you're welcome just because you don't like trans people?

adungitit · 2021-02-27T11:19:45+00:00

no one is forcing GC to continuously take the bait (and frankly it's embarrassing how we always do)

I mean, most people don't check who is posting every thread, they just read the title and the description (oftentimes not even the latter). You can't really tell the difference between your average troll and QT at first glance, as the behaviour of the two is fairly similar. Back on Reddit, the vast majority of any "discussions" would end the same way: QT asks a very basic "gotcha" question, GC answers like every time before, QT disappears, oftentimes back to their trans space for comfort, complaining about GC bigotry. Most QT posters were woefully unprepared for the fact that their questions actually had pretty easy answers because their community has convinced them that "transwomen are women" is such an infallible argument that the notion of it, well, not being so came as a shock, and disengaging from the discussion and pretending it never happened would be the only way to preserve said worldview in face of evidence to the contrary. The comparatively smaller number that would remain to argue seems to have been the worst proponents of ladybrain theories who lacked any self-awareness of how misogynistic they sound, probably because they come from male-dominated communities less aligned with liberal feminists so they didn't get the memo that you're supposed to package your misogyny in something nicer than "Female brains make women cry at romcoms and want to wear makeup".

adungitit · 2021-02-25T19:19:31+00:00

It's especially embarrassing because this person just keeps re-asking the same question after being proven over and over again why they're wrong in other threads.

adungitit · 2021-02-24T09:47:43+00:00

But it seems to be wealthier women (of any age) who support this the most

I think a lot of wealthier women have had to let all kinds of misogyny pass for the sake of work and relationships and they knew they couldn't make too much of a stink about it. Believe me, they experience just as much sexual violence as any other woman, I have yet to come across an older woman of any political leaning who was absolutely shocked at the notion of women regularly experiencing sexual violence, the way that men pretend to be shocked (i.e. shocked that the reality they've been lying about and denying in face of overwhelming evidence became too obvious to ignore. Shocked, I tell you!). They know full well what is happening, they've experienced it on their own skins, they just have a lifetime of brainwashing and being told they have to put up with it for the sake of their careers and likeability. The ones you see on top are just the ones who could grit their teeth and bear it (survivorship bias and all).

adungitit · 2021-02-23T07:13:18+00:00

I don't object to the tactic though; it's impossible to distinguish a troll like this from reality.

Which is exactly why we don't need lying and "trolling" in order to make our case.

adungitit · 2021-02-07T16:42:53+00:00

they’d have to respect the boundaries of the other employees when it comes to certain spaces

This is the problem with a lot of trans "rights"; they directly encroach on female rights with the special treatment they require. You end up forcing women to share bathrooms with men and to call men women, you call them bigots just for the act of recognising men and the oppression they overwhelmingly put women through. Entertaining wishful thinking rooted in a misogynistic ideology that feminism has been fighting against for decades is a pretty different requirement compared to, you know, not thinking of women or black people as subhuman and biologically inferior.

adungitit · 2020-11-19T14:58:10+00:00

every time either of us try to talk to GC people, it feels like they genuinely want to drive us away.

It's hard to empathise with this when you're the side that regularly gets told you deserve to die and choke on dicks and also gets banned on sight for not agreeing with "transwomen are women".

I do think it's counter to my mental health to listen or internalize the opinions of people who consider me annoying and stupid, especially when part of telling me their perspective also includes elaborating on how annoying and stupid I am in the same time.

So why not stop acting like that? You had it explained to you why your behaviour is bad-faith and unproductive, and you seem to understand that. If it bothers you that your behaviour is "annoying and stupid", then stop doing it, and if you don't think it is, well I'm legitimately curious to hear how you might interpret your own behaviour differently (but you never answered anyone regarding that). Why do you think bad behaviour deserves to be tolerated if it was explained to you why it's bad? Because it makes a person feel bad? Sometimes people need to feel bad for doing bad things so they can stop doing them.

tho no one will tell me what I'm failing to answer

Serious question: do you not notice that your own responses never address anything said by anyone, instead only repeating the same points? Every response of yours is like a completely new question that can be written literally anywhere else. I don't know if that behaviour has a name, but it's pretty common to have a person ask a question, get an answer and then ask the same question again while completely ignoring the contents of the answers they got. This tends to be done specifically to fake a willingness to discuss while sabotaging any attempts to move forward by basically being on loop and entirely unreceptive to anything said by others. I'm not saying you're doing this intentionally and with a hostile purpose, I'm saying that, to an outside observer, it's indistinguishable from it. I am legitimately curious how you perceive your own responses here.

It's all just "TRA's hate us so everything we do and say is in self defense and thus completely excuseable".

GC have not made "Kill all TRAs and make them choke on dicks" our catch phrase. Being rude and disagreeing with each other is one thing and par for the course honestly, telling people they deserve to get killed for disagreeing is another.

the trans community at least has large pockets of people who don't hurt anybody and can just talk about movies and hiking and share art ect without needing to embrace the narrative that anyone "non-trans" is worthless trash.

The trans community that regularly tells radical feminists they should get killed and choke on their dicks? The trans community advocating for the removal of women's hard earned protections? It's easy to act casual when your goal is to fit into the patriarchal status quo and when things are going your way, instead of when you're aware of just how deeply messed up our patriarchal society is.

I really miss the old reddit sub, when it didn't just feel like GC people were sitting on a spiderweb, waiting for non-GC people to post here so they can jump down their throats and chase them away.

Wasn't the old sub like that, too? It always skewed a lot more GC.

That's not even mentioning how bad the circle-jerking of GC people high-fiving one another for each comment, making it seem like the whole sub likes watching a dogpile

The problem is that there is no place that will allow GC to operate without having to automatically agree with the trans side and give up their rights. People agreeing with each other is completely normal and expected, from both sides, but by nature of GC being automatically excluded from normal communities and the trans ideology being notoriously unable to handle discussions, the result is that these subs end up skewing heavily on GC side and with the trans side not seeking out any spaces where they might be challenged beyond the altright level of "men in dresses are yucky". Sadly I don't see a way to fix this. Telling people to agree with each other less seems kinda silly. GC is always going to be hated both by conservatives for being against the patriarchy, and by liberals for not wanting to play nice with the patriarchy and being too radical, so it's hard to integrate into any space without giving up our ideals and basically turning into the "nice" liberal feminism.

adungitit · 2020-11-19T14:02:06+00:00

Are people who don't believe in God rude? Is it rude to speak of evolution? Is it rude to deny God's existence? The answer is both yes and no. But the real important answer is that this is irrelevant because, at least in theory, we shouldn't base our discussion on kindergarten logic of "you're right/wrong based on how nicely you can say something".

adungitit · 2021-08-26T02:01:17+00:00

Women and feminists are the whole reason we have sexed bathrooms in the first place, so women have made their feelings on the matter very clear. As for what men think about women's rights and protections, who gives a shit?

adungitit · 2021-08-22T11:29:10+00:00

No-one said it doesn't matter, but that it doesn't trump their sex. If I wear a convincing gorilla costume and people freak out, that doesn't prove that I've turned into a gorilla, nor does it prove that we don't need to keep wild animals fenced off. Obviously whether a person gets mistaken for a man or a woman (regardless of whether they're trans) does factor into how they're treated. A woman with a masculine name might get more respect when writing e-mails, but that doesn't mean she's now a man or that she proves misogyny isn't a thing.

adungitit · 2021-08-10T12:52:09+00:00

People can sue you, you can sue them... That's different from a movement focusing on certain goals. In fact, it is a common complaint among trans activists that GC ignores female trans people and focuses only on men, despite even the most cursory overview of GC ideology showing the reasons for this (men present a danger to women, vice versa isn't the case).

adungitit · 2021-08-09T16:46:14+00:00

Hell, why stop there? Healthy people don't need medical services. Let's just destroy hospitals for the sake of fairness, they literally discriminate against healthy people.

adungitit · 2021-05-30T19:56:00+00:00

It baffles me why theory of this isn't banned - he constantly engages in textbook male derailing, bioessentialist wanking and the whole male-idiot-act where he asks for people to explain feminism 101 to him over and over and over again, and then quickly changes the topic with unrelated (but always identical and previously answered) questions when his wanking gets called out. Like, are the mods THAT stupid or inexperienced (or both) that they don't recognise textbook male trolling when they see it or is this another attempt to suck up to conservatives or what? Seriously - you've got a man who isn't even trans or QT wanking out answers to questions about female sexuality and telling women that they're actually biologically attracted to alpha chads, and the mods are like "seems legit".

adungitit · 2021-05-26T08:16:41+00:00

"internalized misogyny" applies to women, not trans men.

And a whole lifetime of being raised as female and treated with all the double standards that female people are treated with simply...didn't happen? That person has entered an alternate reality just by changing their Twitter bio?

adungitit · 2021-05-26T08:12:24+00:00

A trans man who had top and bottom surgery and passes well can enter a gay sauna.

You do realise that the requirement for transitioning and especially surgery is seen as transphobic by your own community, right? A woman's vulva and clit are now a "front hole" and a "dick" because she's using he/him pronouns.

adungitit · 2021-05-26T08:02:01+00:00

Because women don't support men being shit towards them. Being against the patriarchy =/= being against all male rights. Men's "rights" that oppose women's rights are not supported by women (and this goes for male trans rights as well). Your desperation to appeal to anti-feminist male myths in order to make yourself seem better to men is really sad.

It just shows one of their main goals is to be anti-trans.

I though the feminazi are all about hating the poor poor men?

adungitit · 2021-05-18T13:47:25+00:00

Some of them believed that they are "the best woman", because they are like "smart like man, sexy like woman, and can't get pregnant, so only positives".

I've seen it too and it makes me livid. The notion that women are privileged for something we have literally been owned as sex slaves for.

"In arabian countries and in medieval ages, men are fighting to death to get a woman, so men's life means nothing, but women's life is super valued and focused on"

This is a common argument even among self-proclaimed progressive men who ofc always need to reframe any feminist ideals as being all about making men's dicks feel better for them to care. So the notion that women have been pitting men to fight against each other for their benefit remains popular.

adungitit