GC: Why are penises, testes, etc considered strictly male organs, and vaginas, uteruses, etc strictly female organs? What's wrong with the view that women have penises, etc too and can produce sperm, or that men have vaginas, uteruses, etc too and can get pregnant?

submitted by BubblyBrush from self.GCdebatesQT

The view many trans people have is it's not just men who have penises, but women can have penises, etc too.

Similarly, it's not just women who have vaginas, uteruses, etc, but men can have those organs and get pregnant, which they call male pregnancy.

Why can't we say vagina, uterus, ovaries, etc are also male organs and penis, testes, etc are also female organs? Why are penises, testes, etc considered strictly male organs, and vaginas, uteruses, etc strictly female organs?

Other questions I have:

2) Why is production of sperm considered something only the male is capable of, and pregnancy something only the female is capable of?

3) Why would you say male pregnancy is impossible and can't exist?

4) Would it be possible one day with the help of technology for real male sex organs (penises, testes, etc) to be transplanted to females, and for real female sex organs (vaginas, ovaries, wombs, etc) to be transplanted into males? Or would you say that's impossible and can't happen? If you think it's impossible, can you share your reasons why you think that?

5) Another thing, this is a hypothetical question, imagine real male sex organs (penises, testes, etc) are transplanted to females, and function properly, as in the creature is capable of producing sperm. Is this creature a male now? Did this creature go from female to male or not in this scenario and why?

What about real female sex organs (vaginas, ovaries, wombs, etc) being transplanted into males, imagine they function properly and the creature is capable of producing eggs. Is this creature female now? Did this creature go from male to female or not in the scenario and why?

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

1) Because female and male are literally defined by the development of those reproductive systems (whether they are functional or not or whether they are removed or altered or not).

2) See above

3) It possible male pregnancy may happen at some point, but it’s a bad idea and a poor use of resources. I feel the same way uterus implants in females for pregnancy too because it’s just so risky and so many safer options already exist. Trying to do that in a male will be even harder because there is less of what is needed already there. My husband and I can’t give birth, but are going to adopt. People should just do that rather than put themselves and a child at risk. Even surrogacy would be a much better choice, although there can be ethical concerns about that.

4) Maybe, although the person would have to take anti-rejection drugs for that to work and they might die (everyone who has tried it so far has). It’s possible genetic engineering could enable it, but I don’t feel like it should be a priority considering the state a women’s healthcare and all the diseases we don’t have cures for yet.

5) I feel like the only way you could really change sex is if you could rewrite your genetic code somehow. If that happened, maybe it would really be a sex change. It wouldn’t change your experience though which would not be typical for someone of that sex so many GC concerns might still apply.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I feel like the only way you could really change sex is if you could rewrite your genetic code somehow.

That can kill you in few weeks or months. Changing genetics after body already formed will not change the body, it will only change instructions to regenerate injuries and so it can lead to cancer or other problems.

For this to work, this must be performed during first weeks of pregnancy. And changing genes is not even really needed, all is needed is activation or deactivation of SRY gene and anti-Mullerian hormones.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Totally! I don’t think this is something that can actually happen for trans people. Sex selection for babies already exists and has had devastating consequences for girls.

[–]SilverSlippers 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

at can kill you in few weeks or months. Changing genetics after body already formed will not change the body, it will only change instructions to regenerate injuries and so it can lead to cancer or other problems.

For this to work, this must be performed during first weeks of pregnancy. And changing genes is not even really needed, all is needed is activation or deactivation of SRY gene and anti-Mullerian hormones.

Yup. The reality is that the genetic code isn't altered. The pregnancy is aborted if the parents want a different sex (usually they abort girls).

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

everyone who has tried it so far has

People have tried doing it?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lily Elbe is the most famous, but I’ve heard there were others too. It was all during the first half of the 20th century though and it was not safe at all.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Here we go again. It would’ve been nice if you’d actually responded to the comments on your other post but whatever.

“The view many trans people have is it's not just men who have penises, but women can have penises, etc too.”

This is incorrect. As many of us explained on your other post.

“Similarly, it's not just women who have vaginas, uteruses, etc,”

Of course not. Girls have them too.

“but men can have those organs and get pregnant, which they call male pregnancy.”

This is false. Again, it was explained in your other post which you neglected to respond to.

“Why can't we say vagina, uterus, ovaries, etc are also male organs and penis, testes, etc are also female organs?”

You can say whatever you want you’ll just be wrong lol.

“Why are penises, testes, etc considered strictly male organs, and vaginas, uteruses, etc strictly female organs?”

Biology. Reproduction. Science. Reality.

Other questions I have: 2) Why is production of sperm considered something only the male is capable of, and pregnancy something only the female is capable of?

Biology. A transman can’t identify their way into sperm production and a transwoman can’t identify his way into pregnancy, likely not even with a uterus transplant. That’s nobody’s fault. That’s just reality. Also- are you aware of what happens to the rest of a female body when they’re pregnant? Like to our internal organs and all? Do you get that a male body would need to be capable of all of those changes?

3) Why would you say male pregnancy is impossible and can't exist?

Probably because it’s literally never happened and the only “men” who have ever successfully endured pregnancy all happened to be transmen, which is to say female and there’s nothing remarkable about this whatsoever?

4) Would it be possible one day with the help of technology for real male sex organs (penises, testes, etc) to be transplanted to females, and for real female sex organs (vaginas, ovaries, wombs, etc) to be transplanted into males? Or would you say that's impossible and can't happen? If you think it's impossible, can you share your reasons why you think that?

Even non sexual organs that are transplanted into a member of the opposite sex are highly likely to be rejected than if the recipient got an organ from a person of the same sex so I’m guessing no. I highly doubt a male body would be capable of adapting to female reproductive organs. I feel like that effort could probably go to more worthwhile causes. It’s hard enough to successfully transplant a uterus into another female. It’s a waste of effort and resources to do so with a male just for validation. And they’d end up feeling less valid once their body rejects it.

5) Another thing, this is a hypothetical question, imagine real male sex organs (penises, testes, etc) are transplanted to females, and function properly, as in the creature is capable of producing sperm. Is this creature a male now? Did this creature go from female to male or not in this scenario and why? What about real female sex organs (vaginas, ovaries, wombs, etc) being transplanted into males, imagine they function properly and the creature is capable of producing eggs. Is this creature female now? Did this creature go from male to female or not in the scenario and why

Is every cell in their body now also the opposite sex? Chromosomes and all of it? Does it even matter? Since this is never going to happen? Are you actually going to respond to anyone on this post or the other one?

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't know how to respond to you when you act like all my questions are a joke? I'm sorry but I'm slow and am not as smart as you, I need more than one sentenced answers to understand, "biology, reality", or "things on your other post answer you" don't actually answer my current questions here. Things are not so obvious to me as they are to you, maybe because I'm mentally ill. But those questions in the other post were about something entirely different. They can't give me answers for the questions in this post.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I didn’t ask why you didn’t respond to me specifically. You didn’t respond to anyone. I don’t act like these questions are jokes, although I do think the answers are obvious and that people who claim to not understand why these answers are obvious never actually provide their own reasoning- likely because they have none. I answered the questions- if you don’t like my tone that’s fine but all I did was answer honestly and even provide links to more gently worded answers that say the same things I said.

The other post does answer all of this. The answers there explain how sex works. So it explains why what you’re asking isn’t possible and doesn’t make sense. I assume you understand how babies are made? I assume you understand the basic differences in female and male anatomy? You understand the basics of menstruation and gestation? And yet you ask questions and create a post that ignores what you surely understand- that’s something I don’t understand. Can you name a person who is not female (I’m not talking about identity or altering their sex characteristics, but a literal born xy penis having male person regardless of personal sense of identity) who has gotten pregnant? Can you name a female (literal xx vagina having female person regardless of personal sense of identity) who produces sperm? You can’t. Because it’s never happened because it cannot happen because that’s not how sex works.

I get that my tone was rude- but it’s increasingly frustrating to have qt posters post things like this and then not engage. It’s hard to believe you posted either of your posts in good faith. You saying that you’re slow makes me think maybe you did come in good faith, until I consider your wording. The way you worded your first post, particularly the end, makes me think one of two things happened. 1. You are “slow” in some capacity and you’ve been manipulated and misguided by tras and maybe think you have to go along with them because “wokeness” or 2. You’re not slow at all but just weren’t prepared to have to reply to any of the clear and well thought out responses you received because there’s no response that can be offered that holds up what you want to believe (to be fair, that may be me projecting what I think about others who have made similar posts).

Maybe you truly believe that these posts are unrelated- but they go hand in hand.

ETA-I have to say I started out much nicer, but my god it’s so frustrating when people (not talking about you, just generally in this and the old sub) refuse to acknowledge basic science and are simultaneously incapable of providing a sensible alternative. It’s like they don’t know their own answers but just cannot accept what is rooted in history, biology, And fact. My tone has sharpened the more I participate. I can usually be kinder when I feel someone is genuinely trying to understand, I honestly did not get that vibe from your posts. At the end of the day, humans are mammals. It just doesn’t make any sense to me that people think that human sex is different from all other mammals. Even plants have males and females. Every thing or being that is sexed is classified as male or female because of criteria they fit or don’t fit. Humans are not an exception to this.

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Sorry for leading to any misunderstandings. I really thought they were unrelated, because in the other one I asked things like what the definitions of male and female are, and in this one I asked why things like testes, penises, etc are considered male sex organs. And why they can't be considered female sex organs too.

I have some learning disabilities, and had a hard time in school. Still have a hard time in uni. It's hard for me to connect things, and if the two threads are really related then I apologize for not noticing. I do think I get manipulated easily because of my mental illnesses. That's why I came to this place, I don't want to spend years being confused by the tra logic.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

“Sorry for leading to any misunderstandings.”

Me too.

“I really thought they were unrelated, because in the other one I asked things like what the definitions of male and female are, and in this one I asked why things like testes, penises, etc are considered male sex organs. And why they can't be considered female sex organs too”

This is why I think these posts are related- the definitions of male and female are sex based. It’s the whole difference between men/boys and women/girls. Yes there are many differences between males and females, but I think it’s fair to say that genitalia is the biggest difference amongst us. If we consider testes, penises, etc female- what then is a female? What’s the point of any definition at all, when the distinction between sexes is erased by saying that these body parts that only develop on male bodies can now be female? I just feel like- even if we say penis and testes are or can be (also- that “can be” we’d be saying that male genitalia is female based solely on identity?) female- we still know that only “people with uterus, cervix, vaginas etc” can get pregnant. So there’s still a distinction and separation in reality, even if we definitively erased any distinction and understanding. If we altered language to allow TW to be considered women and female, and TM to be considered men and male- that does nothing to change the fact that the way sex works with regards to reproductive capacity, health concerns, and physical differences just cannot be erased. We’d just have to find new language to articulate these differences because they will always matter. To me, this creates confusion for 100% of the population just to protect the feelings of 1%. And in the end doesn’t even protect them- because the truth about our sex still exists whether we have the language to discuss it or not.

“I have some learning disabilities, and had a hard time in school. Still have a hard time in uni. I do think I get manipulated easily because of this. That's why I came to this place, I don't want to spend years being confused by the tra logic.”

I apologize. We get posts like this often and it’s almost always someone who has made up their mind and is trying to “gotcha”. I assumed that was you and I was wrong. If I see a post from you again or we engage again I will try to be less blunt and sarcastic. I appreciate that you came here rather than just accepting what tras push on us. I would just say, most people don’t want to not support a marginalized group-it just feels impossible to get behind their demands and beliefs. Many gc people here, myself included, used to be allies ourselves. The more we learned, the less actual logic we found and the more problematic thinking we encountered.

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for understanding me. I know it's troublesome to explain things to me in a way I can understand, it happens a lot in reality but I'm trying and I also appreciate that you are willing to take the time to come here and answer my questions. I got fed the tra logic for some time, especially on reddit, but I had a mental breakdown after a while because I was confused and didn't know who's telling the truth anymore. I get like that a lot when I can't process information properly and I decided only by coming here to see where the tras are wrong the confusion can go away, I hope it does.

I see now why the posts are related, it's because male and female are defined by genitals too and if we say testes are female or vaginas are male then male and female become meaningless. Did I get it correctly?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You’re welcome and yes! I’m not the best to explain things, I think some gc people are better with science than I am lol, but I’m here to answer as best as I can.

[–]adungitit 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Here's a better question: if vaginas aren't female, why do male people who wish to be women pay for surgeries and risk their health and bodily integrity to feel more like women, and claim that they want to kill themselves because they don't feel like women without it? Why don't they pay to put a fake ear on their groin, or make fantastical sex organs? Somehow it always just so happens to be the organs of the opposite sex. So even trans people don't believe this.

men can have those organs and get pregnant, which they call male pregnancy.

Except they can't. Literally the only "men" in existence who have the capability to get pregnant are women, because women are the only ones who can have female organs that allow for pregnancy. Because they are women. And women are the only ones who have female organs. Because female organs are the ones with the capability to get pregnant. I could go on.

There is no actual observable difference between women who claim to be male, and women who don't, just as there's no difference between a human who claims to be a wolf, and a human who doesn't, or a human who claims to be the Messiah and one who doesn't. The fact that I can say falsehoods on no basis other than "I said so" doesn't make things reality.

Why is production of sperm considered something only the male is capable of, and pregnancy something only the female is capable of?

Because that's literally how it works. We didn't decide on that, and if you don't like it, take it up with Mother Nature or God or whatever you believe in.

If you think it's impossible, can you share your reasons why you think that?

Well since you claim that there is no such thing as male and female organs, I think all so-called "sex-reassignment surgeries" should stop being performed for transsexual purposes, since there is clearly nothing that needs to be done. The organs are already appropriate to the sex they're supposed to be on, and if a person is so mentally ill that they can't recognise that, maybe they're not fit to accept such an invasive surgery. Would you agree?

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Plus why does OP draw the line there'? If you can call a man a woman, if you can call a male organ a 'female organ', then why still say 'penis'? Why isn't it being re-named too, to it's homologue: 'clitoris'? Why not change 'ejaculation' to 'squirting'? Sperm to 'mobile ova' & testicles to 'external ovaries'? Why half-ass it? Go all the way.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is why JKR had to say: sex is real.

If female can mean either female or male, then female means nothing.

Sex & gender aren't the same thing. If you are endosex (not intersex) then your sex is binary even if you identify as non-binary.

Why ignore sex differences, but never under any circumstance ignore inconsequential "gender" differences within a sex? Sex differences are definable, significant. Wtf do gynaecologists do in this topsy-turvy world of yours?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

http://www.nataleo.com/blog2/2020/11/23/why-you-should-not-put-wombs-in-males?format=amp&__twitter_impression=true

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

This is really detailed and I like the article. Are there any articles like this where evolutionary biologists oppose the idea of transplanting penises to females and explain why transplanting a penis to a female would never work and is impossible too? Thank you in advance.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

https://splinternews.com/doctors-can-now-transplant-penises-what-does-this-mean-1793856833

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Even if we can successfully transplant female or male sex organs onto a member of the opposite sex, it is likely that their body will reject it (this happens with organ transplants of any kind, your body is more likely to reject an organ from a donor of the opposite sex, I think there’s even issues with males receiving blood from a female who’s been pregnant before). But also- if it were successfully down somehow, it wouldn’t be their dna. It would be an extreme form of surrogacy or sperm donation (that’s the best way I can articulate lol) that comes with really scary, potentially life threatening side effects.

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Thank you for the explanation, I think your own explanation in this comment is better than that second article! The article for the penis transplant confused me because unlike the article on uterus transplant where the author was against the uterus transplant, this one was pro-trans and wasn't against penis transplant and offered other ways those females could get the penis they want. The last line made me realize these people would go under the bus just so those females get that penis

But if an actual penis is what it will take to quiet transgender rights opponents’ standby argument that transgender men aren’t “real” men, then perhaps it’s time these opponents refocus their energies on raising money for transplant research.

I think they might even use technology. The article said they plan on funding research on 3d printing so they can replicate anatomical parts like penis, and testes, and maybe they will use it to replicate the uterus? I don't know. It's scary how far they are going with this

That’s not to say there are no alternatives in the works—albeit, the labor may not bear fruit for years, or even decades.

“For the transgender male, this is a new era giving options that allow a quality of life with a truer sense of gender and sexual identity on a psychosocial level,” Dima Elissa, CEO and founder of VisMed 3D, a Chicago-based company looking at the future of 3D-printed body parts, told me in an email. The 3D-printed anatomical parts that Elissa and her team are working on could be the more viable genital solution for transgender men in the shorter term.

With 3D printing, I believe it will be years not decades, when we will realize and replicate anatomical parts at a much reduced cost, and a more tailored personal solution."

Clearly she has a vested interest in promoting the promise of 3D printing, but Schecter did not rule out the possibility of the technology making its way to trans men before the transplants.

“The goal is to accelerate the use of 3D technology through proven standards, which don't really exist today, that would make the production of body parts, penis or otherwise, a real and affordable possibility for all,” she said.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I feel like we may indeed get to a point where someone figures out how to replicate the appearance more effectively, I don’t really see how they could replicate the function. That’s why I sent an article that was pro trans. Even pro trans has to acknowledge that this isn’t really truly possible.

I agree it scary the lengths they will go to, and it worries me because I don’t see how they will ever fully transition someone to the opposite sex. It feels like a promise is being made or hope is being offered that will end up disappointing trans people in the end.

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Understood! I can't find any articles written by someone who's against penis transplants on females and gives similar detailed arguments against the trans like the first article where the author was against the uterus transplants though, do you know of any?

And I'm scared of what they are going to do, with 3d printing they are pushing boundaries in a way that can open doors to gene editing (like they dream of editing genes so they can actually change dna and change sex from there way before embryonic development even begins) and if their dreams come true who knows what creature they will end up with in the end ... it definitely won't even be human.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think maybe the reason the first article is so much more against those types of transplants is because of what they mentioned about harm to a fetus and the danger of creating a black market for female genitalia. Females are already abused, used, and oppressed because of our sex, this would contribute to that, potentially. Particularly since a live donor is thought to be more successful than a deceased donor. And no unborn child should be forced to start life as a validation tool/science experiment when they know going into the experiment that there’s a great risk for the fetus (as well as the male). There are ethical issues with the uterus transplant that just don’t exist for a penile one, though it could be possible that any hormones or medications could affect any sperm produced? Idk if that’s true or not, to be fair- tho they aren’t transplanting thr testes even for males getting this procedure, so maybe that’s a non issue altogether. There are potential victims (both baby and females) to the transplant for transwomen. There’s really aren’t any for the transplant for a transman. Both face risks of complications and rejection. But there aren’t any risks to other people with the penile transplant. I don’t see many articles about penis transplants (for or against), but I think there’s always more stuff about transwomen than transmen, both from gc and tras.

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think there are risks to other people when it comes to transplanted penises, because men who want transplanted uteruses plan on being "pregnant" right? Women who want transplanted penises would also want to make women "pregnant", to say to people "we are real men". If a female with a transplanted penis uses the "sperm" produced from transplanted testes to reach the "egg" from transplanted ovaries in a male, then that would mean someone else (the fetus) is being affected. I think there should be more articles like that first one, but this time arguing against penis transplants, it's sad people aren't thinking about the risky things women can do with transplanted penises :(

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

men who want transplanted uteruses plan on being "pregnant" right?

If a female with a transplanted penis uses the "sperm" produced from transplanted testes to reach the "egg" from transplanted ovaries in a male,

A lot more than the penis and testes would have to be transplanted for this to occur. Sperm is made in the testes, but for sperm to make its way from the testes through and out the penis requires the contribution of various fluids from other male organs, such as the prostate. Seminal fluid/male ejaculate contains sperm, but is much more than sperm.

Similarly, it would take more than a transplanted uterus and ovaries for a male to become pregnant. Conception of a human egg typically occurs in the Fallopian tubes, then the fertilized egg passes into the uterus.

There the fertilized egg has to become implanted in the endometrium lining the uterus to have a chance at being viable. For a pregnancy to occur, an entirely new organ - the placenta - has to grow to supply the embryo/fetus with blood and nutrients. The instructions for implantation and placenta development to occur come from having female sex chromosomes - aka the "software" - not simply from having transplanted female body parts - aka "hardware."

Beyond those events, there are many, many things that have to occur in a female body to sustain a pregnancy and grow a fetus to the point it can live outside the mother's womb. Female kidneys have been shown to function differently to male kidneys; female kidneys appear to have evolved to handle the much greater fluid volume and cleansing burden that pregnancy entails. It's unlikely that a male's kidneys could handle the extra load of a pregnancy. The differences in male and human kidney function seem to account for the fact that whilst kidney disease is more common in women than men, men die of kidney disease at much higher rates and at earlier ages than women do.

Male and female humans also have different levels of immune function, which stems from the fact that immune function is on the X chromosome - of which males have only one. By contrast, females have two X chromosomes - and when one fails, the other previously inactive or "silent" X chromosome becomes activated and kicks in. This is obviously beneficial in protecting a pregnant woman's health and the health of her embryo/fetus. No way males with their XY chromosomes could pull off such a feat.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's a really interesting article. I have applied for a study on the subject last year and some, but not all, of the concerns listed there where in the paper that informs you about the potential risk. Thou there was one mistake she made regarding AAs in transwomen. Thank for sharing

[–]SilverSlippers 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

WTF? We've had this question probably a million times.

Sex is biological and about how reproduction happens. However someone chooses to identify is irrelevant. A male who identifies as a woman is still male and her organs are still male organs because they produce sperm.

Humans are just like every other mammal in that we have two sexes, determined by chromosomes. We are not special. The definition of sexes is about gametes that they can potentially produce. That's why there will never be "female testes", its an oxymoron.

The more I hear stupid ass arguments like this the more frustrated I get with the modern gender movement. I'm fine with people identifying how they want and using whatever names or pronouns they want, but this is complete bullshit. Sex is real and matters.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why can't we say vagina, uterus, ovaries, etc are also male organs ... What about real female sex organs (vaginas, ovaries, wombs, etc) being transplanted into males...

Clearly you understand that certain organs are female. Could we call them male or transplant them into males? Calling them male would be dishonest and transplanting them would be dangerous, expensive, and ultimately insufficient. You will never make a male into a female by trying to smush a bunch of female parts into his body. And women don't produce eggs, they're born with eggs already part of their system, and they start releasing them at the beginning of puberty...

Recognizing that women are physically women and men are physically men does not mean that people can't dress or act in whatever way they like. Men don't have to be "women" to wear heels and makeup. The categories are useful for political, statistical, medical, athletic, sociological and sometimes personal reasons, but they don't have to have any influence on how you behave or what fashions you like. That's just your personality.

[–]questioningtw 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Um, I don't know, because throughout the animal kingdom the female gives birth and males produce sperm, there are literally no exceptions. I know this sounds condescending, but holy shit I am tired of post modernism. i can agree that trans people exist and should be able to transition. I can agree that after transitioning they pretty much are the other sex(but not completely) But I refuse to play along with this men can get pregnant crap! Males literally can't and it is insulting to my intelligence to pretend other wise.

Edited to add: if biology don't real then why do most trans people actually feel the need to transition? Chaz Bono obviously understoond you can't be a man while looking like a female, so he transitioned to looking as male as possible. Lyn Conway is a trans woman that is an engineer and she transitioned to look as female as possible. this whole sex is a social construct is one of the silliest things I have ever heard

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Because humans love to create gestalt concepts like “binary sex”

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

What’s the other gamete then?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

People without gametes are sexless?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

People who don’t produce gametes still fall into one of two possible sexually reproductive roles. What is the third potential gamete and who is making it?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

No they don't, without gametes you don't have a reproductive role

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

They absolutely do. The potential to produce or to have produced one of two gametes is what determines a persons sex.

What other system is there? What goddamn gametes will they produce?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

If you can’t produce any goddamn gametes then you have no potential to produce any goddamn gametes. Thus according to the gamete definition of sex classification that those individuals lack a sex. Only going by a total anatomy model can you have people who don’t produce gametes but have a sex trait classification

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

The potential was there, disease, age, or deliberate interference remove the ability. The person still had the potential. 🙄 goddamn.

Gamete production is a sex trait. Gynomastica interferes with the silly graphs and charts tra try to pass off as the ~spectrum of sex~

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

If they can’t do it then no they don’t have the potential. To have the potential to do it there must at some point be an event that gives them the capacity to. Absent such an event actually occurring to them in the future, then no they have no potential to do so.

What the hell is “gynomastica”?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

They did have the potential. The goddamn fetus was male or female before it was born and got a hysterectomy/vasectomy/cancer/old and that’s why they are either male or female. Are dense or deliberately obtuse?

Gynecomastica, whatever, when men grow tits because of a hormone imbalance.

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Do you see that my question starts with GC which is followed by a colon? It means I am asking my questions from GC people and GC people only. You're TQ, so please. Can you and the other TQ not respond when a question is asked from GC people? If I wanted answers from you I would have said "Both:" not "GC:".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I believe in gender abolition and identify as a gender critical feminist. I just also happen to support trans rights.

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What? If you were gender critical, you wouldn't talk exactly like the trans right activists do: "uwu binary sex doesn't exist, if you have no gametes or genitals you're sexless uwu?".

GC at its core criticizes trans right activists and their beliefs, and if you are a trans right activist then you're contradicting yourself.

You said you 'identify' as a GC, if you were GC you would know it doesn't matter what you identify as. What matters is if you are really GC or not, and seeing as you don't at all follow the core values of GC, you are not GC.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I disagree. Just as there can be TIRFs there can be TIGCFs. You’re definition of GC feminism as entirely based on trans rights with no other areas of concern is nonsensical. Plus foolish bigotry will never be a legitimate part of any branch of feminism, so I consider myself more of a gender critical feminist than almost anyone else on this sub

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If GC means being a trans right activist then I will have to use "Anti-TRA and anti-GC:" when asking my questions so you know I'm specifically asking questions from "bigots uwu", and not you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But I’m neither anti trans rights or anti gc, I’m just anti transphobia. Maybe use “pro transphobia” and “anti transphobia”?

[–]BubblyBrush[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good one, "pro-transphobia" works better than "anti-tra and anti-GC".

[–]freystrey 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender identity and sex are different, sex is not mutable nor a spectrum – every intersex or genetic condition is a mutation from one of the binary sexes. I don't have a quarrel with people's individual gender identities if they don't interfere with women's rights. Imagine how confused this next generation of children will be around sex and reproduction – there are already unexpected pregnancies because some trans people believe they are infertile, and prove not to be.