All: Is physically transitioning ethical?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Transitioning as an adult is fine. Your body, your money, your right. As long as the adult in question is capable of rational decision-making and understands the risks they are exposing themselves to, no problem.

It is unethical imo to believe that these surgeries should be publicly funded or should be prioritised ahead of medically necessary procedures. Nobody has died directly due to not having breasts, many have died without rapid mastectomy.
Suicide is not directly caused by waiting for surgery. It may be a factor in someone’s choice to end their life, but it is emotionally manipulative and disingenuous when people claim suicide counts as a death from not getting surgery.

There is no ethical way to experiment on children if we accept exposing children to harm is ethically wrong.

People can argue til they are blue in the face that it isn’t experimentation but they also cannot produce documentation of long term results of puberty blockers in healthy children, and they cannot provide evidence of puberty blockers being harmless in children who had precocious puberty.

It might not be set up as an experiment according to scientific method, but it is experimental. It has not been done before and the long term outcomes are unknown.

Halting a child’s development to, paradoxically somehow allow them to develop, is unethical imo. It is taking a physically healthy child and interfering with the healthy functions of their body to focus further on gender identity. Anything short of guiding the child to understanding that their body is healthy and acceptable as it is, and that their sex does not prevent them from being the people they want to be, is too close to conversion therapy for my comfort.

Encouraging a child to think that they have the wrong body is cruel and unusual. We recognise this when parents foster eating disordered behaviour or shame visible conditions like cleft lips, strabismus, limps, palsies, etc etc. Changing the specific flaw to the child’s sex does not change the fact that the idea encouraged is a vile one.

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Transitioning as an adult is fine. Your body, your money, your right. As long as the adult in question is capable of rational decision-making and understands the risks they are exposing themselves to, no problem.

Since the vast majority of adults who "transition" by far are autogynephilic men, I have to disagree. When men take CSH, get surgeries to alter their appearance and dress as the "girls" they imagine themselves to be in order to live out their sexual fetishes FT and in public, it has negative impacts that are far-reaching. What these men are doing isn't just about them - it has traumatic, harmful effects on their wives, their children and the rest of their families, such as their parents and siblings. Moreover, when men "transition" into their "sexy girl" selves it's especially insulting to their mothers, sisters, daughters and the women who bore, birthed and have raised their chidlren.

The "transitions" of AGP men affects their work colleagues and communities too, and often the strangers they encounter as well, such as the store clerks, restaurant workers, TSA agents and other low-wage service personnel they tend to to lay into and try to get fired for such crimes as "misgendering" them. And because so many AGP men who "transition" are in powerful positions in business, politics, law, the media, sports and Western culture & society generally - and today they are lionized for "transitioning" - what they do affects social, legal and political policy and shapes the entire culture too.

"Transitioning" is an inherently social, attention-seeking enterprise that always requires an audience just as much as it requires looking glasses and costume changes. Even the least demanding, most low-key "transitioners" always require a degree of participation from the audience - ranging from acquiescence to affirmation. Accommodating people's "transitions" always mean some other people - girls & women especially, but many boys & men too - will be subtly coerced or forced into censoring their own feelings & biting their tongues. It always means that some other people will end up having to give up some of their own rights & positions in order to make sure that the people who've "transitioned" are centered and their demands & needs invariably come first and are always met.

Even "part-time transitioners" of the male sex who choose to "live in girl mode" only when it suits them like Eddie Izzard and Pips Bunce have a negative impact, particularly on girls & women. Coz they are telling the world that being female is simply an idea in men's heads, that being a woman means conforming to sexist stereotypes and the most regressively misogynistic caricatures, and that any man can become a woman simply by donning long locks, some lippy and a frock and saying so. And coz when "in girl mode" these men feel it's their right to use spaces for female people like ladies loos and locker rooms, and to apply for and accept awards & positions meant for female people.

"Transitioning" amongst both males and females is only done by people who are deeply sexist, misogynistic and often very homophobic too - and the the view that "transitioning" is A-OK so long as the "transitioners" are adults is basically saying that expressing and perpetuating the sexism, misogyny and homophobia that underlies and drives transgenderism is perfectly fine. I don't agree. Most "transitioners" and their "allies" today embrace and espouse the most regressive, extreme sex stereotypes that I've encountered in more than 50 years. Many of them also display strong animus against homosexuals - lesbians especially, but increasingly against gay boys & men too - that is worse than the homophobia rampant in the 60s, 70 and 80s, whilst at the same time they malign and express unprecedented hostility fro heterosexuals, whom they deride as "genital fetishists" for basing their attraction on sex rather than on "gender." Moreover, as events this week in the UK once again demonstrated, those who "transition" and who support "transitioners" tend to be extremely racist - particularly against black people and Jews - and prejudiced against the disabled as well.

In short, I can't agree that it's simply a matter of

Your body, your money, your right.

Coz like John Donne famously said, no trans person is an island.

[–]adungitit 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Men screwing their families over for the sake of their dicks isn't really different from standard male behaviour, neither is men abusing women's rights for the same purpose. The fact that transitioning is regularly used by self-centered misogynistic narcissistic men doesn't make transitioning inherently misogynistic and narcissistic.

"Transitioning" is an inherently social, attention-seeking enterprise that always requires an audience just as much as it requires looking glasses and costume changes.

Therein lies the problem: requiring constant audience participation in order to reassure the trans person of something that isn't true. This isn't the issue with physical transitioning itself, though. I don't think getting plastic surgeries to imitate the physical characteristics of women is inherently misogynistic, as long as claims aren't made that said plastic surgeries and an artificially-induced hormonal imbalance count as womanhood. Certainly misogynistic ideas about men and women underline most of the motivations for transitioning, but the result, a man with plastic surgeries and an artificially-induced hormonal imbalance, isn't actively harmful to women as long as there is an awareness that this isn't what being a woman actually is.

other low-wage service personnel they tend to to lay into and try to get fired for such crimes as "misgendering" them

lol are you seriously trying to blame trans people for upholding poverty? Come on. Pandering to the customer has always been a part of work, and customers getting mad when you don't humor them has always carried risk. I've seen GC do this and it's laughable: poor people not being able to understand or keep up with (hypothetical) social progress isn't a reason to stall or negate said progress. Focus on explaining why said "progress" isn't progress at all and is harmful to women, instead of basically saying it's too hard to understand.

those who "transition" and who support "transitioners" tend to be extremely racist - particularly against black people and Jews - and prejudiced against the disabled as well.

This is just ridiculous. You might as well say that for most groups, especially any group composed of men. People can be backwards and bigoted but still deserve rights. If you believe these things aren't rights (much like how being owned a sex slave shouldn't be a male right), and if you believe that these rights are directly harmful to marginalised groups (not just "Well a lot of them happen to be racist!"), then argue that, instead of claiming that something is bad by virtue of association.

Accommodating people's "transitions" always mean some other people - girls & women especially, but many boys & men too - will be subtly coerced or forced into censoring their own feelings & biting their tongues.

Expecting people to "censor" views seen as harmful is not a bad thing. We all censor our views for social purposes, and should. I do want a white supremacist to "censor" their idea that anyone non-white is biologically inferior. The question is which views should be perceived as harmful and not normalised and spread freely, and which shouldn't.

they are telling the world that being female is simply an idea in men's heads, that being a woman means conforming to sexist stereotypes and the most regressively misogynistic caricatures, and that any man can become a woman simply by donning long locks, some lippy and a frock and saying so.

First of all, now you're talking about social transitioning. But how much resonance would these statements have if we didn't live in a society where we ARE told that this is what defines women? Trans people didn't make these things up, they are just abusing what is already in place for validation and putting it on steroids. The specifically trans rights take on it, where this is an integral part of one's being and criticising or even discussing it is violence because recognising reality makes them feel suicidal, that can be pinned onto the movement itself.

expressing and perpetuating the sexism, misogyny and homophobia that underlies and drives transgenderism is perfectly fine

These things are expressed in day-to-day life by everyone. The real point is the ways in which trans ideology is uniquely misogynistic and harmful, instead of standard misogynistic and harmful.