Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association?

submitted by LemurLemur from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]LemurLemur[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

The main GC sub (both here and on Ovarit) has some people who paint the entire trans community with too broad of a brush. I don't support that.

You are the only poster that has even acknowledged this. Thank you. I think I remember seeing your posts on the reddit sub, and I always appreciated your perspectives. I wish there were more people I could talk to about this, because I have a lot of problems with the way trans people act, too. There's plenty of things GC talk about that i think should be explored. But man, the GC hostility is hard to wade through. Thanks for answering in good faith, I also do try to remember when I have good interactions with GC people. Even if they don't happen as often as I wish they did.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

No problem, and welcome to the sub. Please feel free to stick around. We could definitely use more QT people.

I've always had some issues with the main GC sub. It's why I avoided it while I was on Reddit, but after the banwave, I said screw it, moderate gender critical women need to have our voices heard, too. So I started participating, but I don't always agree with everything that's said. There was one commenter on Ovarit the other day who basically painted all trans people as perverts who shouldn't be allowed near children. I was like, dude, way to make us all look like a bunch of bigots. Our valid criticisms are overshadowed when people get hyperbolic and start making extreme statements like that.

My main concern has always been for fellow gender nonconforming people, especially natal females, and children of both sexes. It bothers me when people only see the the lack of "niceness" of some of our community without listening to what the rest of us are actually saying. It's a problem for both sides, to be honest. I'm sure there are tons of trans men and women who don't support whatever some random trans person says on Twitter. It's the same everywhere. It's like if someone has a different political opinion these days, they're automatically evil. American politics is plagued with an "us vs. them" mentality.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Our valid criticisms are overshadowed when people get hyperbolic and start making extreme statements like that.

I agree with this. There's a lot of things I've seen GC people discuss that I agree with in concept, but they way they talk about it is what drives me away from ever wanting to be part of GC culture (I'm not trans, but my sister is and we have discussions about this a lot). The problem is, every time either of us try to talk to GC people, it feels like they genuinely want to drive us away.

It bothers me when people only see the the lack of "niceness" of some of our community without listening to what the rest of us are actually saying.

It's honestly just not healthy to, dude. The responses to even this post, where I'm only asking if GC wants to be associated with this sort of behavior, I'm being called annoying and stupid. I don't think it's annoying and stupid to ask, and I don't think GC shouldn't be "allowed" to call me annoying and stupid, but I do think it's counter to my mental health to listen or internalize the opinions of people who consider me annoying and stupid, especially when part of telling me their perspective also includes elaborating on how annoying and stupid I am in the same time.

It's a problem for both sides, to be honest.

I agree with this. I've debated with people in trans communities as well, and I've seen plenty of rudeness there as well. But maybe because there's less unified opinions than there is in GC circles (it seems no two people have the same relationship with their own transition, or with the people they interact with post transition), but when someone is rude to me on most trans subs, there's at least other trans people who have also stood up for me, who tried to empathize where I was coming from. I've had multiple trans people message me and try to encourage me not to take my bad experiences as a sign that all trans people are equally negative...

I don't see this happen in GC circles. While trans people can be rude, there is at least a pretty wide swath of the community that will acknowledge that it happens and try to openly fight back against their own community to reclaim a less hostile narrative. I don't see this happen in GC circles. I rarely see any GC person even able admit GC has ever done anything to exacerbate the hostility at all. It's all just "TRA's hate us so everything we do and say is in self defense and thus completely excuseable". As it sounds like you've experienced, any GC people who do try to counter the narrative tend to get shouted down and accused of not being "real" GC.

So like... I agree with more GC positions than I do greater trans positions (like transwomen in sports ect), but the trans community at least has large pockets of people who don't hurt anybody and can just talk about movies and hiking and share art ect without needing to embrace the narrative that anyone "non-trans" is worthless trash. So I have more actually enjoyable conversations with trans people than GC people.

I really miss the old reddit sub, when it didn't just feel like GC people were sitting on a spiderweb, waiting for non-GC people to post here so they can jump down their throats and chase them away.

Please feel free to stick around. We could definitely use more QT people.

I wanted to stick around. I was really excited to find this sub, after it vanished from reddit and made a saidit account specifically to be able to chat here. But after slogging through and trying to respond to everyone here, only to be told over and over that I'm just annoying, stupid, rude, incapable of answering questions (tho no one will tell me what I'm failing to answer), incapable of forming arguments (even when I'm not trying to argue at all), and that if GC is rude to me, it's because I deserve it... I don't really know why anyone would want to stick around. I feel like I've just gone 10 rounds with my abusive gaslighting mother who used all the same lines on me ("I'm not abusive, you just deserve it for being stupid; if you can't answer for things you didn't even do it means I'm right; I'm actually the victim and you're attacking me" ect.) That's not even mentioning how bad the circle-jerking of GC people high-fiving one another for each comment, making it seem like the whole sub likes watching a dogpile...

If you ever find a sub where people can talk about GC stuff while also acknowledging the problems in GC, please feel free to message me. I'd love to participate. But this sub is not fun to participate on, and I am not surprised non-GC people do not stay long.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

every time either of us try to talk to GC people, it feels like they genuinely want to drive us away.

It's hard to empathise with this when you're the side that regularly gets told you deserve to die and choke on dicks and also gets banned on sight for not agreeing with "transwomen are women".

I do think it's counter to my mental health to listen or internalize the opinions of people who consider me annoying and stupid, especially when part of telling me their perspective also includes elaborating on how annoying and stupid I am in the same time.

So why not stop acting like that? You had it explained to you why your behaviour is bad-faith and unproductive, and you seem to understand that. If it bothers you that your behaviour is "annoying and stupid", then stop doing it, and if you don't think it is, well I'm legitimately curious to hear how you might interpret your own behaviour differently (but you never answered anyone regarding that). Why do you think bad behaviour deserves to be tolerated if it was explained to you why it's bad? Because it makes a person feel bad? Sometimes people need to feel bad for doing bad things so they can stop doing them.

tho no one will tell me what I'm failing to answer

Serious question: do you not notice that your own responses never address anything said by anyone, instead only repeating the same points? Every response of yours is like a completely new question that can be written literally anywhere else. I don't know if that behaviour has a name, but it's pretty common to have a person ask a question, get an answer and then ask the same question again while completely ignoring the contents of the answers they got. This tends to be done specifically to fake a willingness to discuss while sabotaging any attempts to move forward by basically being on loop and entirely unreceptive to anything said by others. I'm not saying you're doing this intentionally and with a hostile purpose, I'm saying that, to an outside observer, it's indistinguishable from it. I am legitimately curious how you perceive your own responses here.

It's all just "TRA's hate us so everything we do and say is in self defense and thus completely excuseable".

GC have not made "Kill all TRAs and make them choke on dicks" our catch phrase. Being rude and disagreeing with each other is one thing and par for the course honestly, telling people they deserve to get killed for disagreeing is another.

the trans community at least has large pockets of people who don't hurt anybody and can just talk about movies and hiking and share art ect without needing to embrace the narrative that anyone "non-trans" is worthless trash.

The trans community that regularly tells radical feminists they should get killed and choke on their dicks? The trans community advocating for the removal of women's hard earned protections? It's easy to act casual when your goal is to fit into the patriarchal status quo and when things are going your way, instead of when you're aware of just how deeply messed up our patriarchal society is.

I really miss the old reddit sub, when it didn't just feel like GC people were sitting on a spiderweb, waiting for non-GC people to post here so they can jump down their throats and chase them away.

Wasn't the old sub like that, too? It always skewed a lot more GC.

That's not even mentioning how bad the circle-jerking of GC people high-fiving one another for each comment, making it seem like the whole sub likes watching a dogpile

The problem is that there is no place that will allow GC to operate without having to automatically agree with the trans side and give up their rights. People agreeing with each other is completely normal and expected, from both sides, but by nature of GC being automatically excluded from normal communities and the trans ideology being notoriously unable to handle discussions, the result is that these subs end up skewing heavily on GC side and with the trans side not seeking out any spaces where they might be challenged beyond the altright level of "men in dresses are yucky". Sadly I don't see a way to fix this. Telling people to agree with each other less seems kinda silly. GC is always going to be hated both by conservatives for being against the patriarchy, and by liberals for not wanting to play nice with the patriarchy and being too radical, so it's hard to integrate into any space without giving up our ideals and basically turning into the "nice" liberal feminism.