GC: Is there such a thing as "transgender"?

submitted by Tea_Or_Coffee from self.GCdebatesQT

To claim there is such a thing as "transgender", we should first define what a "transgender" is. What is a "transgender"?

What is a "trans man" or a "trans woman"? A "transgender" is someone whose personal identity does not correspond with their sex, and who wishes to change their "gender" from "man" to "woman" or from "woman" to "man" through hormones or surgery.

This is confusing because, there is an assumption that "gender identity" exists, and that "man" and "woman" are "genders" or defined based on "genders" instead of sex, which can be changed through hormones and surgery. Both contradict GC's view that "man" and "woman" are sexes instead of "genders", and can not be changed.

Would it be correct to conclude there is no such a thing as "transgender", "trans man", "trans woman", and "transitioning" then?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 3 fun -  (16 children)

“What is a "transgender"?”

The meaning varies depending on who you ask.

What is a "trans man"or a "trans woman"?

Simplest explanation- someone who undergoes the process of altering their appearance to resemble the opposite sex

“A "transgender" (person) is someone whose personal identity does not correspond with their sex, and who wishes to change their "gender" from "man" to "woman" or from "woman" to "man" through hormones or surgery.”

Sure, if we accept that your sex means you have to or aren’t allowed to identify a specific way.

“This is confusing because, there is an assumption that "gender identity" exists,”

An assumption made by people who want it to exist, despite no clear explanation for what it means, what if feels like, or why it means different things to different trans people.

Answer, please:

a transwoman knows he’s a woman/has a female gender identity because he felt “out of place” in his body, is drawn to “feminine” things, and didn’t connect with what other boys/men tended to connect with?

another male who likes the same things as the first, but is “comfortable” with his body and his sex,

And also a female who feels “comfortable” with her body and sex, but just wasn’t interested in traditionally “feminine” things

Do they all have the same gender identity? Why or why not?

“and that "man" and "woman" are "genders"”

the genders are male and female, they correlate to sex. Intentionally. Because that’s the whole point of gender.

“or defined based on "genders" instead of sex,”

Gender is based on sex, you can’t really define something based on gender without it ultimately being based on sex. There is nothing that a trans person can do post transition that they couldn’t before, except experience some of the side effects of gender the opposite sex experiences- if - they successfully “pass”.

“which can be changed through hormones and surgery.”

Humans can’t change sex, that’s just fact, so we shouldn’t define sex with falsehoods or by the ability to change the appearance of your sex, but not the fact of it.

“Both contradict GC's view that "man" and "woman" are sexes instead of "genders", and can not be changed.”

Men and women aren’t sexes. They’re the terms used to differentiate between adult humans of either sex.

“Would it be correct to conclude there is no such a thing as "transgender", "trans man", "trans woman", and "transitioning" then?”

I mean... yeah? Kinda? That doesn’t mean that there won’t be people who alter their appearance to appear to be the opposite sex. It just means that gender is not some internal sense of self or something you can opt into, it is just society’s interpretation of sex. You can’t turn into or out of it, you can only successfully slip undetected into the structure that already exists... or have no need to. You’re ability to slip by undetected relies on sex meaning what it actually means, and gender being directly tied to sex.

It doesn’t mean that the terms “transwoman” “transman” or “transition” can’t be used by people who wish to, or when necessary for discussion, it just means that when it comes down strictly to fact, transwomen are men and transmen are women. And these terms used to avoid stating that fact are used kind of as a societal compromise.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (15 children)

Men and women aren’t sexes. They’re the terms used to differentiate between adult humans of either sex.

I understand you. I meant man and woman are defined based on sex, and not gender. Man is 'an adult human male' and woman is 'an adult human female'. Meanwhile those who think they are 'trans' and can change 'gender' - e.g. change from 'man' to 'woman' - define man and woman based on gender - e.g. gender identity, clothing, 'passing as' the desired 'gender', etc.

Trans right activists do not see 'gender' and 'sex' as the same. They see them as separate.

That is why there are 'trans women' who say they are male, but are socially women because their gender, not their sex, is a woman. They define 'gender' based on gender identity, social roles associated with one sex, clothing, and changing body with hormones and surgery to 'pass as' the desired 'gender'.

[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Trans right activists do not see 'gender' and 'sex' as the same. They see them as separate.

This isn't true. Many TRAs and other genderists see gender and sex as one and the same; they think that being one sex or the other automatically means conforming to the sex roles and sex stereotypes that sexist, regressive people associate with that sex. Hence, they claim that little boys who like dresses, the color pink, sparkly things, long locks, hair bows, dolls, wearing a towel on their head after bathing and playing tea party really must be girls. And girls who like trousers, practical clothes, short hair, active play, toy cars, puzzles and playing sports really must be boys.

Moreover, many TRAs and genderists today claim there is no such thing as sex at least not binary sex. They say there are many sexes, and the idea that there are only two is a cuckoo and racist concept cooked up by white Europeans and introduced to, and enforced on, the rest of the world through colonialism. Many TRAs today claim that words "biological" and "biological sex" as well as "male" are "transphobic dog whistles" and "hate speech" whose sole purpose is to convey bigotry against trans-identified people.

Actually, it's feminists and others who object to gender ideology who see - and long have seen - sex and gender as separate.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I see. Trans right activists are very confusing. Underneath JK Rowling's tweets they would say 'gender' and 'sex' are separate. While in every other occasion they say 'sex does not exist', 'sex is a social construct', and 'sex is not binary and is a spectrum that can change'.

Which one is it? It seems even they don't know what they are talking about.

Thank you for the information by the way.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

The way they are interpreting/defining gender is not accurate. It’s that simple. Gender has no meaning without sex and it is not an internal thing. they are technically separate things, but things that are tied together in society, by society, not on an individual basis.

There is no such thing as being socially a woman, but being a male person. you can be mistaken for a woman socially if you look female, and be treated as such, but that doesn’t make you a woman in any way, it literally just means you look like one. But even then, they’d have to never be known to be trans, because the knowledge that someone is trans changes how most people see them and what they expect/associate with them socially- they get treated as trans, not the sex they were mistaken for. If your status as something socially is tied directly to concealing a fact about yourself that you cannot change- you aren’t inhabiting that social status, you’re pretending to. Maybe that’s enough for a trans person to be happy, but that doesn’t mean they’ve changed sex or gender.

Their definitions are factually incorrect, self serving and narcissistic. They don’t make sense or clearly define anything. It’s just a desperate and sexist claim they cling to because they need to. It doesn’t matter if you try to redefine words (into nonsense that doesn’t even actually define anything), words still mean what they mean if the meanings you reject still apply to 100% of the world, even the people trying to redefine those words. Facts aren’t facts because you insist they are, they are fact if they are proven true. They haven’t proven that TW are women in any way or that transmen are men. They can’t. Because it’s just not true. So what they think and claim doesn’t really matter. They can’t back it up factually. Sucks for them, doesn’t make what I’m saying untrue. Feelings, even ones you express constantly and can’t let go of, don’t matter more than fact when it comes to things like this. Ideology doesn’t disprove fact. Though you can use ideology to try to justify denying fact- but you shouldn’t be allowed to force others to.

Gender identity basically means stereotypes and associations that are typically applied to the opposite sex- and only trans people seem to have it. So how does an internal identity that only you can relate to and understand make you someone who aligns with people who don’t share that identity? That’s why I asked you to explain that example I gave you (which you didn’t do)- how and why do all three of those people either share a gender identity or all have different ones? Are at least two of them the same gender identity? Which two, and why? If they are all different, what is each one? Yet you ignored that and only responded to one bit.

This is why I keep asking you what it is you’re ultimately trying to understand, or what point you’re trying to make. You just keep mentioning what trans people think or mean-do you genuinely not understand that believing something doesn’t make that something true or even logical?

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (11 children)

May I ask what your definition of 'gender' is and what you mean by 'gender is based on sex'?

I understand your other arguments, so I will try to answer these questions.

Answer, please:

a transwoman knows he’s a woman/has a female gender identity because he felt “out of place” in his body, is drawn to “feminine” things, and didn’t connect with what other boys/men tended to connect with?

another male who likes the same things as the first, but is “comfortable” with his body and his sex,

And also a female who feels “comfortable” with her body and sex, but just wasn’t interested in traditionally “feminine” things

Do they all have the same gender identity? Why or why not?

The common answer is they do not have the same 'gender identity'. A man who likes 'feminine' things and feels out of place in his body has a 'gender identity' that does not correspond with his sex.

But a man who likes 'feminine' things and feels comfortable in his own body would be 'cisgender' as his 'gender identity' corresponds with his sex.

The difference in 'gender identity' comes with comfort with one's own sex and body parts. If one feels distressed that they are a certain sex, they are said to have a different 'gender identity' than those who are comfortable with their sex - aka 'cisgenders'.

There are 'trans medicalists' who believe gender identity does not have anything to do with stereotypes, because a 'trans woman' can be 'masculine', and a 'trans man' can be 'feminine'.

Whenever I asked them 'what about someone who feels they are another race', they have said being a certain race is not genuinely distressing to someone, and noone is born with a brain that is similar to the brain of the race they identify with, while people who have 'gender dysphoria' genuinely feel distressed when it comes to their sex and body parts, and their brains are similar to the brains of the 'gender' they identify with.

What do you think of those claims?

You just keep mentioning what trans people think or mean-do you genuinely not understand that believing something doesn’t make that something true or even logical?

'X believes therefore it's true' is a fallacy, and you're right on that. I'm trying to figure out the errors in 'genderism' by sharing the beliefs of the 'trans' people I have seen so far.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

-I don’t have a personal definition of the word gender. The word gender has a definitive meaning. That’s how it’s supposed to be used. Google it, that’s what I mean. The definition answers your question about how gender is based on sex. When I say google it, I mean literally just google “gender definition” not “what does gender mean to trans people”. Just look up the meaning of the word itself.

-As for your answer- why is feeling discomfort because of your sex despite nothing being wrong with your body a sense of identity, rather than mental illness? Feeling discomfort in your sexed body gives you no insight whatsoever into what it is to have the body of the opposite sex, so how does someone identify with something they have no experience with?

You’re describing mental illness, and calling it an identity. But even if it were an identity, that identity is rooted in their head and not reality, and has nothing to do with the opposite sex, other than them coming to the conclusion that it does with no real basis.

  • If transmeds are using the term gender identity, they seem to be referring to dysphoria. Dysphoria is a mental condition, it’s really mentally unhealthy to identify yourself as your mental condition. But who are they to tell you that being a certain race isn’t distressing to some people, but being a certain sex is? That doesn’t even answer your question, it’s just them brushing off someone else’s experience while expecting theirs to be taken seriously. And as I’ve said so many times- brain sex has been debunked. The claim to have a brain similar to the gender they “identify” with (which is not actually a gender, just the stereotypes and associations they’ve placed on the opposite sex) is false. Again, as I said, just because they say something doesn’t make it true or factual. They want it to be true, it’s not. That’s why they can’t give answers that aren’t circular, sexist, based on pseudoscience, or contradictory.

So, I don’t care what they tell you or they say abut it, what is it that you think? Your personal opinion, not a collection of the opinions of people who desperately want things to be true that just aren’t.

You’re never going to figure out the errors if all you’re doing is examining what they say and think. You find the errors by thinking for yourself. Does it make sense to you? Is it based in logic and fact to you? Does it sound sexist? Does everything they say line up into one logical, comprehensive and cohesive ideology that doesn’t contradict itself? Do the definitions they offer for words actually explain what something is clearly?

We don’t need you to share their beliefs to discuss things, we need to know yours. Otherwise this is kind of pointless and that’s one of the reasons you often get so much sarcasm or impatience on your posts.

You should be telling us what you think, instead of constantly referencing their thoughts.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (9 children)

I googled 'gender'. Google defines 'gender' as 'either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female'

Here 'gender' is defined as two completely different things. It can mean sex. It can mean social and cultural roles associated with one sex. Which is what trans right activists refer to when they use 'gender'. They believe there are certain roles given to one sex, and if a man participates in roles associated with women in a culture, he becomes socially/culturally a woman, while if a woman participates in roles associated with men in a culture, she becomes socially/culturally a man (thoughts?).

I don't see how this definition of 'gender' proves 'gender' is based on sex. It can be, but another definition of it separates it from sex, and refers to the stereotypes, and gender roles that GC fight against.

what is it that you think? Your personal opinion, not a collection of the opinions of people who desperately want things to be true that just aren’t.

Right now I'm leaning towards the view that 'there isn't a gender identity'. Though at first when I posted in this sub, I believed in 'gender identity'.

That doesn't mean I have no questions left. But I am thankful to you, u/MarkTwainiac u/BiologyIsReal u/SnowAssMan and everyone else I did not get to mention who tolerated me and answered my questions until now.

[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Google is pretty biased towards transgenderism. If you want to read alternative viewpoints, I'd suggest to use another search engine. Also, books are your friends. It's good to hear I've not been writing in vain (as I feared), but there is so much I or other users can explain in a forum post.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s actually a good point. I don’t even use google, I just have a habit of saying « google it » instead of « look it up »

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. It doesn’t mean sex, it means the sexes as they relate to society

Sex- biological class and function

Gender- the ways that the biological function of each sex impacts society.

Gender stereotypes/roles/expectations- sexism, assumptions based on the specific ways that the functions and differences between both sexes affect society.

/2. So... is James Charles a woman? Jeffrey Starr? Are all the members of the WNBA all men, since sports is typically associated with males?

/3. What role can a transwoman fill in society after transitioning that they couldn’t fulfill before? It has to be something only a woman can do, something a man cannot do, otherwise it’s not a social role that is designated to women. Same question for transmen.

/4. If you don’t see how a definition that literally says “either of the two sexes” is related to sex then I can’t help you. It’s literally the beginning of the definition, it’s the base of it.

/5. The other part of the definition is literally calling it “broadly” used- meaning the usage of the word is “stretched” to refer to the random genders that qt claims exists. this actually doesn’t mean that trans people can change gender or were always the opposite gender of their sex, this means that trans people fall into the broad range of identities, which would at best mean their gender is “trans”, not male or female. There’s nothing linking women and TW (or men and TM) to each other in a cultural or social way, other than the fact that TW model their bodies after female bodies and insist on being lumped in with us. It’s forced, there’s no real connection there, we have entirely different experiences.

So this means there’s two actual genders (male and female) while acknowledging that there are ranges of identity that people claim outside of whats actually a relevant aspect of society. Non binary is another of those broad genders- non binary people would literally have no role in society, no cultural reference, nothing, but they still have a sex and can’t escape gender in our society. That’s what the second part is referring to. It’s similar to the dictionary acknowledging that it’s common for some people to use the word “literally” incorrectly. It doesn’t change the meaning of the word, it acknowledges a colloquial usage.

  1. My point is that it’s better if your posts are about your perspective in the first place, instead of you presenting them though the words of trans people. I get quoting them here and there, if you came across something that became the inspiration for your post, but it should be about your thoughts and opinions, and it never is. We have to ask over and over and go back and forth several times before we know what you think- it’s better to tell us your stance from the beginning imo

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Online dictionaries are often influenced by activists. That third sentence is clearly a new addition. You seem to believe that the second sentence supports trans identities – it doesn't, only the third one does. Why do you think gender is even called GENder? Like GENisis, GENorate, GENeration, enGENder. It's a synonym for sex. Not just colloquially "what's the dog's/baby's gender?" but academically too: 'gender bias', 'gender imbalance', 'gender inequality', 'gender ratios' etc.

Trans activists use 'gender' as a shorthand for 'gender identity', which is reflected in the amended definition, while you interpreted 'gender roles' from it, despite there being no mention of 'gender roles' within it. Gender, gender identity & gender roles are three different terms with three different meanings.

Gender either refers to the sexes: male & female, or of the constructs: masculinity & femininity. Transgender people aren't referring to either of the two definitions of gender. They are referring to 'felt-gender' or 'preferred sex' – that's what they actually mean when they use gender as a shorthand for gender identity, since gender identity is determined by socialisation, while felt-gender is determined by self-identification.

A man who identifies as a woman has a gender & gender identity in common with every other man, since they are by nature (biology) & nurture (socialisation) a man. Transgender people believe that their self-identification replaces their sex & socialisation, that their felt-gender overrides their gender & gender identity, despite the opposite being true. They still follow gendered behavioural patterns according to the way they were socialised: the male ones outnumber the female ones in crime, politics & media representation. That familiar androcentric pattern proves that they are misgendering themselves. Actions speak louder than words.

It's rather remiss of the dictionary to not clearly state that the second definition refers to masculinity & femininity. All the other terms depend of the definition of gender making sense:

Gender (2nd meaning): masculinity & femininity

Gender roles: masculine & feminine roles

Gender identity: masculine & feminine identities

See how much more elucidating it is that way, instead of 'gender' acting as a catchall term to refer to everything & nothing?

However, if you look up gender in the Oxford dictionary (which is the official one for the English language I believe) under the social/cultural part of gender it gives the following examples:

  1. In the grade-school years, too, gender (which is the socialized obverse of sex) is a fixed line of demarkation, the qualifying terms being ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’.

  2. It [sc. Margaret Mead's Male and Female] informs the reader upon ‘gender’ as well as upon ‘sex’, upon masculine and feminine rôles as well as upon male and female and their reproductive functions.

Even dictionary.com uses the example: "the feminine gender".

So now we know that the "cultural/social" part of the dictionary definition of gender doesn't actually support transgender identity, only the bit tacked on at the end about non-binary identities. And even then it only seems to cover the non-binary ones. I wish all these "binary" trans people would identify as non-binary instead. They are AT BEST non-binary, since they can't erase their sex or socialisation. They often know this, that's why Elliot Page identified as non-binary & Contrapoints identified as genderqueer.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It's a synonym for sex. Not just colloquially "what's the dog's/baby's gender?" but academically too: 'gender bias', 'gender imbalance', 'gender inequality', 'gender ratios' etc.

Just want to point out that in the USA, the use of "gender" as a synonym for sex is a recent development - one that started in some corners of academia in the 1980s, and only started coming into wider use over the course of the 1990s. No one in the 1940s, 50s, 60s and 70s - and hardly anyone in the 80s - used gender as a euphemism for sex.

We used to say sex bias, sex imbalance, sex inequality, sex ratios, etc. Many of us older people still use those terms and wince at neologisms like "gender pay gap," "gender impacts of COVID-19" and "gender-based violence."Second-wave feminism was all about sexism, sex discrimination, sex-based violence, sex stereotypes, sex roles, sex quotas and so on, as the books and titles of landmark feminists books from the 20th century show: The Second Sex, The Dialetics of Sex, Sexual Politics.

[–]adungitit 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If gender wasn't a synonym for sex, then what is its meaning?

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sex=male/female, a fact of biology determined at conception inside your mother's body.

Gender, previously known as sex stereotypes =masculine/feminine, cultural concepts learned and enforced through socialization after birth.

There's also a distinction between sex roles related to reproduction and sex roles that are based on sex stereotypes rather than biology, aka gender roles.

Sex roles mean women, not men, are ones who carry pregnancies, go through labor, give birth and breastfeed. Women take on these roles coz of biology. Many women wouldn't mind sharing these roles with men - or letting men do them altogether. But that's not possible coz of how nature has arranged things. So these roles go to women alone.

Sex roles based on sex stereotypes, aka gender roles, come from ideas rather than biology, though many of the ideas can be traced back to biology. Gender roles are based on reasoning such as: because women breastfeed babies, women are the ones who "naturally" should do all the cooking & grocery shopping in families/couples; because women breastfeed babies, women should be held responsible for dealing with the mess when what has been fed to babies comes out the other end; because women carry, give birth to and breastfeed babies, women should do all the childcare as children grow up, even long long after they've stopped breastfeeding ... This kind of thinking leads in turn to further iterations like: because it's women's "natural role" to change babies' diapers & wipe their asses, it's women's job to clean house, do the laundry, including ironing, wash the dishes and scrub the toilet; because women are "naturally suited" to cleaning house, then they're the ones who are best equipped to work as housekeepers in hotels; because women are "naturally suited" to wiping baby's shitty asses, women are naturally suited to changing bedpans in hospitals and to changing the diapers and wiping the asses of elderly incontinent people; because women do the bulk of childcare in most families, women are best suited to being teachers and administrators in early-childhood education, but not to being college professors and university administrators and presidents ... and so on.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I started to suspect as much when reading the different dictionary definitions of gender. The non-American ones often specify that in the USA there is distinction between sex & gender, that gender is mostly referring to masculinity & femininity.

as the books and titles of landmark feminists books from the 20th century show: The Second Sex, The Dialetics of Sex, Sexual Politics.

There is also The Feminine Mystique though, because the focus of most of these books, even the ones with 'sex' in the title, is femininity, hence quotes like "one is not born a woman but rather becomes a woman". Obviously it's femininity that refers to gendered socialisation & gender role expectations, none of which really affect men who identify as women, who are essentially only limited to the glittery parts of femininity. Caitlyn Jenner should have added the word "trans" in that notorious quote, so that it read thusly:

"The hardest part of being a trans-woman is figuring out what to wear"

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I said that in the US gender wasn't used as a synonym for sex prior to the 90s, I didn't mean the word gender was never used. In the US and the rest of the Anglophone world, gender was used in the classic linguistic sense when studying or referring to certain languages like French that designate nouns and related words as masculine, feminine or neuter.

When I said people in the US used sex to mean sex back then, I also didn't mean to suggest no used the words feminine, masculine, femininity and masculinity back in the eras I was speaking of. Those words were in wide use in the US and the rest of the Anglophone world going way back. It's just that no one confused them with sex as often happens today. The way it used to be,

Sex=male/female, a fact of biology determined at conception inside your mother's body.

Sex stereotypes=masculine/feminine, cultural concepts learned and enforced through socialization after birth.

The Feminine Mystique was precisely about how feminine sex stereotypes and oppressive, limiting concepts of femininity had come to be imposed on women, and how unhappy women had become as a result. Friedan was not using feminine as a proxy for sex. The feminine mystique stood in sharp contrast to the female reality.

In the 1960s, sexologists Robert Stoller and John Money began using gender as a shorthand term for the stereotypes of masculinity and femininity that the transsexuals they worked with and studied were preoccupied with.

BTW, I just looked up mystique, and think it's a word that's quite relevant to convos about "gender" today.

Noun: 1) a fascinating aura of mystery, awe, and power surrounding someone or something; 2) an air of secrecy surrounding a particular activity or subject that makes it impressive or baffling to those without specialized knowledge

Today, a very narrow, rigid and (to some) sexy definition of femininity has emerged that could be called the new feminine mystique, and it's this new feminine mystique that trans-identified males seem so entranced and intoxicated by**. Whereas trans-identified females today seem enthralled with a narrow, rigid, cartoonish definition of masculinity that could be called the new masculine mystique. And all gender ideologues seem preoccupied with and utterly under the spell of what could be called the new gender mystique.

** The new feminine mystique of the current era is very different in a number of important ways to the feminine mystique of the post WW2 era that was Friedan's concern.

[–]SnowAssMan 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Transgender is an umbrella term that encompasses transvestites, transsexuals, autogynaephiles, GNC straight women, feminine gay men & lesbian women, as long as their felt-gender is different from their gender, as long as their preferred sex is different from their sex & as long as they self-identify as the opposite sex, neither sex or both sexes as a result.

It's like asking if Jesus existed. A man by that name might have existed, but was he what Christians believe him to be? No. A man with a paraphilia exists, but does that in any way make him any less of a man, or a woman in any way whatsoever? No.

If you call a feminine gay man a woman, then you are erasing him, as well as women, as 'woman' refers to being female, not to being feminine.

The only way there could be such a thing as transgender is if the definition was changed. I don't really see the value in retaining the term though. All the people who are included under the umbrella don't have enough in common to warrant grouping them together & they aren't different enough from other people to warrant a label that distinguishes them from others.

Dividing them by gender & orientation makes sense. But just because a man may have a gender-role preference different from the one he was socialised into doesn't mean that'll ever be relevant. He is a man by both nature & nurture. Society doesn't recognise the difference between a femboy & a man who identifies as a woman. Anyone who'd be bigoted towards one, would be just as bigoted towards the other.

We didn't create a new category for Michael Jackson after his racial-transition, so why should we do so for people like Jenner & Page?

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

It's like asking if Jesus existed.

This is a good analogy. Thank you for this comment.

[–]motss-pb 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

The medical condition, gender identity disorder, exists. People who have this condition, and treat it by living as the opposite sex, are transgender. I believe transgender people exist, but this doesn't require me to believe that gender identity exists. There's no contradiction here. For example, you can believe Christians exist while simultaneously believing that there is no such thing as a soul.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The medical condition, gender identity disorder, exists.

Except officially it doesn't - not anymore. GID - gender identity disorder - used to be considered a psychiatric disorder.

But the American Psychiatric Association retired that term in 2012, changing it to "gender dysphoria" in the DSM-V. More recently, the APA has been making changes to the definition and criteria for "gender dysphoria" in its written materials to further keep up with the demands of activists, and to widen it so that more people can receive a clinical diagnosis.***

WHO scrapped the term GID years ago, calling it "gender incongruence" instead. Then WHO started using the term "gender dysphoria." In 2019, WHO removed all conditions related to "gender" from the International Classification of Diseases (ICD), which sets the global standard. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/world-health-organization-removes-gender-dysphoria-from-list-of-mental-illnesses/

People who have this condition, and treat it by living as the opposite sex, are transgender.

This is out-of-date too. Now the APA says "gender dysphoria" in adults, adolescents and children isn't necessarily about wanting to be or live as the opposite sex, believing that you "feel like" the opposite sex, or insisting that you are the opposite sex. Rather, gender dysphoria today can also mean wanting to become, desiring to be treated as, or believing you have the feelings typical of "some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender." https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

Finally, many transgender people and advocates say it is not necessary to have any kind of "gender dysphoria" or distress to be transgender.

Not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria and that distinction is important to keep in mind.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/expert-q-and-a

https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/not-all-trans-folks-dysphoria/

as awareness about the trans community has grown, so too has the number of people who identify as transgender. Yet, as the community grows, more and more people who identity with the label of transgender have also found they haven’t ever felt any dysphoria at all. Instead they learned they were trans for a variety of political to social to emotional reasons.

we cannot let dysphoria be the only path, the price of entry, into our community. It frames being transgender as something painful, shameful, and to be resented. It defines transgender not as something to be proud of, but to be fought against, or hide.

And this view fosters not only internalized transphobia, but transphobia from others. Go into any comment section on any transgender content, and I’ll place bets you’ll find someone decry that transgender people are mentally ill somewhere in there. If indeed gender dysphoria, a mental illness, is a requirement for being transgender, would that mean they are that far off? And, as I already stated, if you treat gender dysphoria, have you cured your transness too? Is being transgender something we really want to be curable?

https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/1/18/do-you-need-gender-dysphoria-be-trans

According to the current thinking, your views make you a "transmedicalist" or "truscum" (sorry if the latter sounds offensive; it's not my term, it's the term used by those who object to the idea that dysphoria is necessary to be trans).

*** The APA is constantly expanding and loosening the diagnostic criteria because the more people who get a diagnosis, the more powerful the gender lobby will become and the more individuals - including kids and adolescents - will be fed into the maw of Big Gender Medicine and become lifelong patients. With Biden's recent rule change, now in the US everyone wanting medical interventions for "gender affirmation" will be able to obtain insurance coverage for their hormones & surgeries from private providers and publicly-funded programs like Medicaid and Medicare alike. Ka-ching! Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

[–]divingrightintowork 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

These words have generally become useless, I'm more likely to use medically masculinized woman and medically feminized man, as they're well.. useful and clear. And if the person hasn't done any of those things, than they're just normal women and normal men. Trans is mostly just a euphemism for what I described above, "med masc woman," "Med fem man," assuming they did do those things.

[–]emptiedriver 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I think "transgender" is a modern phenomenon of presenting as the opposite sex that has become more popular thanks to increasingly impressive cosmetic surgery. Males who want to can pay a lot of money and get some very good treatments to achieve an image of what they want women to look like. This can be done by men who don't want to be homosexual, and by men who think they could do a better job of being women than women do. So, yeah, they exist.

I don't think it's healthy since I am not a big fan of cosmetic surgery and I think it'd be psychologically better for gay men to accept their bodies and natural desires, and for straight men to accept women as real people and not as objects as desire, but I can't deny people who want to do this are real. What I can deny about them is that they are the same as women. They're men who are presenting as women.

As surgeries improve, they are able to blend in more and at least in non-intimate settings people (some more than others) will often assume they are women. I don't know where that leaves us. Maybe it's always been this way, but it seems like more and more, everything is presentation - what pictures you show on FB is happy you are, what decor your living room has is what makes it homey, how the meal looks matters more than the traditional recipe - so if you look like you fit the concept "woman" that's all that really matters to most of those around you, and if you don't but you say you want to, it's just rude to get fussy. It's like saying the pictures on FB weren't that nice or you didn't like someone's living room design. No one is concerned over the underneath quality of how people really feel and whether their home is actually happy. That is just not your business, and now, someone's sex is not either. The food looks pretty, give it a like on Instagram and don't ask to come over for dinner and discuss the details.

I was always okay with being polite in public, as long as we all understood that you can't judge a book by its cover but now that people are insisting that the way things look = the way things truly are, I'm frustrated and want to get things clear. Sex change is not possible. Cosmetic surgery can get quite intricate though.

[–]grixitperson 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. There are transsexuals. But since gender is just an ever expanding cotton candy galaxy of words, there's no possible way to trans in it, thefore, no transgenders.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transgendered is meant to include anyone now and I guess that’s why it changed. I liked it better when transsexual was the word. I feel like GC can use transsexual just as a description of someone who changed their body to be a certain way. It doesn’t have to mean anything about gender being good, or gender identity being real or anything else. It can be a statement about how someone is physically.

Transgender was more like something for crossdressers in the past I feel like. A transsexual would be offended of you referred to them as transgender.