QT: questions about transphobia (But gc feel free to add questions)

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

2&4) Apologies, but your rhetoric and the rhetoric of racists are too similar for me to separate them. Just saying the things you're saying are accurate and true doesn't make it okay. If I waltz into /pol/ and ask for proof that x race is inferior, I'll be showered with crime statistics and test scores galore. That doesn't make it right, as I'm sure it's as obvious to you as it is to me that there is more behind the curtain of out of context statistics. But the same self-applied inherent morality and right-ness is what I'm concerned about. If you can't properly address a point beyond "I'm just saying the truth", then I don't have any real way to talk with you about it, sorry.

In regards to point 2 specifically, I'm not really sure how it doesn't make sense. It is pretty clear cut, and here at least I'm not comparing your rhetoric and racist rhetoric, just pointing out that beliefs about a group of people are opinions, as well as politically charged statements. Being openly transphobic is, similarly, both opinion and transphobia.

To point 4 specifically, how do you feel about the fact that you may have unknowingly called someone born female a man or born male a woman in your day to day life? Is that something that's upsetting to think about? What about the fact that people you have never nor will ever meet have called you a "TERF"? It's true, the acronym is accurate, so how is it a slur? I didn't even call incorrect pronouns slurs, by the way, don't know how you got there, I just said it comes from a place of transphobia.

NOTE: I understand being compared to racists is upsetting. I try my hardest not to make allegories, because of how that can be construed, but direct analogies aren't something I can just let be unsaid. I know it's easy to say racial issues are more pressing and dire (which they are), and thus comparing rhetoric is racist/ignorant on its own, but I'm sorry I'm not going to let people hand-wave me like that when they really be out here acting like my racist uncle who 'doesn't hate black people, but'.

Moving onwards, 3 & 7) Curious how you have a problem with 3 but agree with 7? Considering it's the same answer, I'm a little lost.

There are actual terms for people attracted to feminized males and females (or just feminized males- not my term, just the term I see used often, starts with a g, can’t remember it atm)

Looked it up, can't find anything, sorry. Anyways, I'll be honest, dictating sexuality to me when one of the big hangups radfems have is TRA's dictating sexuality to them is a bit ironic, I hope that isn't lost on you. There isn't VALUE to being straight or gay. There isn't anything WRONG with being straight or gay. The issue comes from placing me in the same category as men, or telling my husband actually he's gay despite the fact that he isn't.

5) And naturally you have sources to back up your feelings right? Or is it just feelings? Because I do.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25201798/

https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/abstract (relates more to pronouns)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26556015/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33529227/

In fact, the worst I can find is studies saying no one cares about trans people enough to get enough data and we need more studies:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31472062/ (badly formatted, sorry)

I should add a disclaimer that while I am very pro young-transition, we need to put a lot more money and effort into determining whether or not children have persistent GD as early as possible. That said, with regards to your point, children aren't old enough to give 'consent' to any medical treatment. None. We don't teach kids with depression to just learn to cope with being depressed all their lives, we don't tell kids with cancer they can't consent to treatment so tough luck. It is a medical illness, one we have cohesive proof we know how to alleviate. Puberty IS permanent, and does permanent psychological damage to kids with GD. Wishy-washy language about being affirming in less permanent ways is the reason poor kids in the UK can't get treatment anymore. Suicide rates go up when trans kids can't access treatment, we know this as a fact.

6)

And male bodies are different in ways that matter athletically before puberty

They aren't. Not even a little. The BEST I could find is pre-puberty boys have less body fat. BMI, Height, Weight, and Lean Mass are all almost identical until about 10-11 years old (the puberty age).

It’s not even just about a potential threat (and your existence has nothing at all to do with it), females should be allowed their own spaces for myriad reasons.

This is a nice thought, but again, I'm not going to put myself in danger for it. If you want to be the one to spearhead the march to put a gender-neutral bathroom in every building in the world, be my guest.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

  1. Can you please explain how a racist saying something like “black people are violent and stupid” is comparable to saying “women are female, transwomen are not female”? Seriously, how are they remotely similar? It’s not rhetoric- it’s literally stating a biological truth. Calling it rhetoric isn’t going to make it less factual. It’s not a matter of skewed statistics about crime or intellect, it’s a matter of fact that everyone but qt/tra/some trans people understand. They aren’t comparable, and a long paragraph that talks about things we aren’t even discussing won’t make them comparable. You seem to be saying “don’t say the truth, even though it’s fact, because I don’t like to hear it”. That’s a worse argument than “it’s just the truth”

You’re not making a direct analogy. People who don’t follow trans ideology are doing so because of actual truth that applies to all humans, regardless of race or sexuality. Defend it all you want, you haven’t made a solid argument because there isn’t one to be made. You never explained why saying those things is transphobic or similar to racist rhetoric. You just claimed it was. There’s no assumptions or accusations being made. Transwomen are male, thats why they transition, transition doesn’t mean to become the opposite sex, it means you resemble the opposite sex, or have attempted to. There’s no “I don’t dislike trans people, but...” coming from me, so that doesn’t apply to me. The closest I’d get to that is, “I can understand that they struggle and suffer in some ways, but that doesn’t make them women and it doesn’t mean females are obligated to sacrifice our rights and spaces for them”. You can call it a different opinion, but biology and reproduction and the fact that we even exist today is reliant on my “opinion”. Women being female can be proven, qt claims about this topic cannot.

-2. gynandromorphophilia. That’s the word. Wasn’t hard to find at all once I looked it up.

It’s not ironic to say that there are in fact words that clearly and accurately explain sexuality. I didn’t say your husband is a gynandromorphophiliac, but he fits the meaning of the word so that’s what I’d use. Words have meanings. A man with a TW is not a heterosexual man. That’s not an insult, it’s not said to mock him or any TW. It’s just true that he fits that word. I didn’t say your husband was gay, but if you really think there’s nothing right or wrong about any sexuality, and he only dated TW or males before marrying you, he would in fact be gay, and that statement shouldn’t offend you. Even if TW were women they’d still be male women, and homosexual means same sex, not same sex unless they’re trans. Idk his dating history, but he married a TW so I know he’s not straight because I understand what words mean. I didn’t say, “-insert your husband’s name-, you have to be gay. You don’t have a choice.” He chose to enter a homosexual relationship, but with a feminized male. That, definitively, would indicate that he’s either bi or a gynandromorphophiliac (Idk if that’s the proper way to refer to a person).

-3. Didn’t agree with 3, maybe you got mixed up.

-4. As far as your question about 4, I have no problem with calling someone who I think is a woman a woman, I have a problem with being told I’m a bigot if I refuse to call an obvious male a woman or refer to him as she/her. I don’t care if someone calls me a terf, nor would I care if I were “misgendered”. You didn’t say it was a slur, so maybe better wording is that pronouns aren’t insults, they’re descriptors, if you visibly fit the description, or I know you factually do, I shouldn’t be told to lie or else I’m a bigot. You said it comes from transphobia, I could just as easily say that a male using those pronouns and calling himself a woman comes from a place of misogyny.

-5. There are several sources, many discussed and posted here, that back up the claim that blockers have adverse effects on children. I’m stunned you’d even pretend that there aren’t. It’s 4am where I live and I’m tired but can link a few of them later. Nobody said they had to “just cope” their whole lives, I said they shouldn’t be put on blockers that stunt their development in multiple areas, just so they can avoid puberty and if they choose to fully transition, have issues similar to Jazz Jennings that complicate even their transition because their body never developed as it should have. Treating cancer and treating a mental condition are vastly different things. I think you need to work on your analogies.

-6. Prepubescent bodies are different between sexes. Another easily proven fact that I can link to later today. Even if they weren’t, males, even trans ones, shouldn’t be taking away opportunities from females. Again, it’s not just safety (and fair play), it’s also that whole equality thing that apparently doesn’t matter if it’s the female who loses out because a male wants validation.

-7. As for the last paragraph: it’s not females jobs to advocate for or find solutions for males. Transwomen should have fought for their own, if they respected females they would have. I honestly dgaf about bathrooms, other than knowing it opens up potential danger, not necessarily from TW, but many women and girls do gaf, and the priority should be making sure the people the space was intended for and designed for are comfortable, not the people who it was intended to keep out (males). I can understand why a TW would choose to invade female spaces, that doesn’t make it right or fair to females.

*numbers don’t necessarily go with the original numbering, you jumped around a bit so I tried to put it all in the same area so I can follow the convo, sorry if it’s confusing

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]adungitit 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Can you explain how it's any different when you say you don't hate trans people and a racist says they don't hate black people?

    I dunno, can you explain the difference between a racist telling a black person their brain makes them dumber vs male trans people telling women their brains make them like pink and wear dresses? For all the "I'm not misogynistic, but..." I have yet to see even one single definition of gender that wasn't based in patriarchal stereotypes or like, ideas straight from the 19th century (from the less self-aware, usually male, cases). If the worst thing you can use to compare us to racists is that we both claim to recognise reality and have a worldview not based in blind hatred, well, you might have a point, but you could also pin that on almost any other ideology in existence. Meanwhile the trans movement's consistent attempts to push backwards brainsex theories and equate womanhood with gender roles and patriarchal presentations DO bring to mind racists advocating whites and blacks to stick to their proper natural roles that their brains made them for, and also the notions that the real racism is not pretending that everyone is white.

    at some point you stop 'telling the truth like it is' and start dogwhistling for the GCers in the crowd

    Is recognising that the Earth is round dogwhistling to roundearthers? Is recognising that evolution exists dogwhistling to atheists? Women did not start demanding that their bodies and rights be recognised to make trans people feel bad. They did it because 1. Women having a different physiology is a simple fact, and we needed different accommodations for this physiology, not because it's "UwU so validating!" but because that's the reality of us being female 2. Because society has assigned a metric ton of baggage and gendered brainwashing to our female bodies (baggage that male trans people are relying on for gender validation since the first point disqualifies them), we need special care and focus in order to deal with a lifetime of subserviant traumatising upbringing in a misogynistic society. 3. We also, due to our female physiology, need protection from men who will prey on us specifically for being female.

    We do not, as women and feminists, recognise that we are women to be "attention-whores" and misandrists. We do it because this is both our lived reality, and something we're targeted for with oppression.

    You keep using words like truth and fact without actually giving me any game-changing truth or fact, you just SAY it, and that's the problem. I understand that physically I'm not biologically female.

    Sooo...they're not saying the truth...and then you literally admit you understand they're saying the truth. And then you say that you don't like this truth being repeated just because the truth makes you feel bad, and you don't like feminist women who have suffered oppression due to actually being female talking about the nature of their oppression without pretending that their womanhood is all in their head because, again, that makes you feel bad. Well cry me a river.

    now she has active anxiety attacks about even talking with her mom

    Here's my little story: I don't care about feminism making misogynists feel bad. I used to, and then I realised that my rights and humanity do not deserve to be eroded to make men and not-like-other-girls-women feel better about themselves. So any time anyone tries to get me to shed tears over misogynists not being able to live their life to the fullest because of those meanie feminazis advocating women's rights, I just...don't give a crap anymore? Like not one bit. I am done feeling bad for misogynists trying to prop themselves up by taking women's rights away and reverting feminist progress decades back.

    she's a horrible manipulative person who will start crying if my friend even talks in her normal, feminine voice on the phone.

    And some would call it manipulative for men to fake "girly" speaking patterns and take lessons on how to "sound like a girl" in order to pretend they're something they're not. Some would also call it manipulative to start crying any time someone doesn't pretend that they're a "reel gurl" because their girlbrain compells them to wear dresses and makeup. And yet all of these things are seen as 100% normal and brave for trans people to do.

    I would also say that girls being pushed into surgeries and a lifetime maintaining an artificially induced hormonal imbalance because they feel they're "not like other girls" is doing horrific damage to girls in their most vulnerable years where they deal with unwanted sexualisation of their body parts, the constant dehumanisation, objectification and ridiculous standards of their appearance.

    With what social equity.

    LOL I'm sorry, trans people could force everyone to pretend that being female is literally all in their head and to use whatever wtf pronoun someone demands they use or get fired within the span of a few years, but when it comes to actually doing shit for themselves that doesn't require them to actively advocate for the removal of women's rights and protections, suddenly it's "We're so poor and outnumbered and no-one listens to us" :,'(((