Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

Should trans status give individuals immunity from sex crime law?

A male entering a female single sex changing room where he views women in various states of undress and exposes himself no matter how he personally identifies is committing two crimes namely: Voyeurism & Indecent Exposure. Even if he had no ill intent, that does not give him the right to view women's naked bodies without their consent nor does it give him the right to expose his penis to them and it does not negate the harm done to women and girls.

Do women have a right to choose who is and who is not allowed to view their naked bodies? Do women have a right to only see penis when they consent to it?

To those who are determined to miss the point, this is strictly about single sex locker rooms/spa rooms reserved for women aka female bodied people. Which were created in the first place prevent & reduce sexual harassment & violence against women when they are vulnerable.

To make sure we are all on the same page here are definitions of Indecent Exposure and Voyeurism:

Indecent Exposure 1. Intentional exposure of part of one's body (such as the genitals) in a place where such exposure is likely to be an offense against the generally accepted standards of decency. (Like a women's only locker room/spa room)

Voyeurism Definition 1. the practice of obtaining sexual gratification from observing others

  1. also : the criminal act of surreptitiously viewing a person without their consent in a place where the person has a reasonable expectation of privacy (such as a home or public bathroom/changing room) or of using a device (such as a camera) for the purpose of such viewing
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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (248 children)

“Do women have a right to choose who is and who is not allowed to view their naked bodies? Do women have a right to only see penis when they consent to it?”

Do we? No. Should we? Absofuckinglutely.

It’s so fucking infuriating to me that this is happening because some males don’t want to change around other males (obviously I know it could be more about wanting to be in the female space for… reasons… rather than feeling uncomfortable in the male space, but the official reasoning is “not discriminating against gender identity”). So… the concept of being uncomfortable around male bodies is something that is understood and sympathized with- but only if you’re a male yourself? Otherwise, it’s not that you feel uncomfortable or unsafe, no you’re just a hateful bigot. It’s insane. They really think this is progressive. The fact that less than 1% of males is the reason that 100% of females (at least where i live- not world wide) pretty much have no sex based rights anymore is an atrocity.

I know this is more about the men who may/will/have abused the laws that allow males into those spaces- but it’s still because of the laws in place for transwomen so I don’t think that it matters when trans people denounce the men doing this, they are the reason it’s possible and they aren’t doing anything to make it not possible.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (247 children)

… the concept of being uncomfortable around male bodies is something that is understood and sympathized with- but only if you’re a male yourself?

It’s not just comfort. It’s safety. If I go into a men’s locker room I will at least have a higher than average chance of being physically assaulted. Why can’t you at least acknowledge that as a motivation for not wanting to be in men’s spaces? Men are dangerous to trans women. Being in an enclosed and isolated space with them more so. Can you at least acknowledge that? You know i prefer single occupancy spaces anyway but you know that at minimum some trans women don’t want to be in men’s spaces because they are worried about physical harm.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Men are dangerous to women and other men. That is acknowledged, but violating women's consent, boundaries and bodily autonomy is never okay. Not wanting to be in men's spaces does not give male bodied people the right to violate female bodied people's spaces.

If a certain subset of men/male bodied people are especially unsafe around other men the solution is finding a 3rd space for them or a more creative solution to protect them, not sacrificing women's rights.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I’m for single occupancy neutral spaces as I’ve said a million times. My point is it’s about safety not just “being uncomfortable” around men.

Build third spaces and I’ll argue we should be using them. Until then people have to get by.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

By getting by I hope you don't mean males violating women's consent by using women's single sex spaces. A particular trans individual not feeling safe in the men's room does not justify violating women's sexual boundaries, bodily autonomy and consent.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (107 children)

As I’ve said so many times- that can all be true, it has nothing to do with women or girls and we (and our rights and spaces) should have nothing whatsoever to do with any solutions TW come up with for their problems. I also don’t agree that men in general are dangerous to TW, and I don’t think you’ve proven that they are. Can they and have they harmed TW? Yes. But there’s no reason to assume or pretend that thousands of other males are just running around looking for TW to bash.

You can want to use female spaces all you want and for whatever reasons you want- it’s still undermining female rights and robbing them of their safe spaces.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, as far as the Wii Spa thing specifically, that man had the option of a unisex floor. He chose to cause discomfort to women and little girls instead.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (105 children)

You said that the reason they didn’t want to use men’s spaces was perversion of being uncomfortable around men’s bodies. That is a false dichotomy leaving out the actual reason which is safety.

I also don’t agree that men in general are dangerous to TW.

This is just wrong. Men are responsible for basically all the physical harm to trans women. I don’t feel safe alone with a cis man ever and no smart trans woman does. They hurt us. It’s not even a question.

You can want to use female spaces all you want and for whatever reasons you want- it’s still undermining female rights and robbing them of their safe spaces.

If that’s your point, say that don’t deny our safety concerns and call us perverts. Just say “our comfort is more important than your safety”. That’s what you are saying so just say it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (61 children)

No no no- I said they don’t feel comfortable in male spaces, and I acknowledged that there are some creeps who just want to be in female spaces (hence the “could be” in my comment). I’m saying it’s both, and we don’t know who’s who until someone behaves inappropriately.

Some of you are perverts. Some of us are, too. That’s life, buddy.

And yeah, I think the rights, comfort and safety of females should be prioritized over any and all males in any female specific space. Because that’s the point of female specific spaces.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (60 children)

Not being comfortable and not being safe aren’t the same thing. We aren’t safe in men’s spaces. That’s why we don’t go there. If I went into a men’s locker room I legitimately might be killed. That’s the point.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Statistically you’re less likely to be murdered by men than the women you’re lecturing about safety. Statistically, you as a transwomen are more likely to murder someone than be murdered yourself. No one here believes your victim narrative except yourself.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Uh, are we really going to act like feminine men being threatened and bullied by other men is a hard pill to swallow?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Uh, no?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 10 fun1 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 10 fun -  (31 children)

Statistically, you as a transwomen are more likely to murder someone than be murdered yourself.

This is wildly untrue and you should be ashamed.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

🙄

Transwomen have a male pattern of criminality and a lower murder rate than the general population. The cats out of the bag.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 9 fun1 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 9 fun -  (27 children)

No.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s actually quite easy to verify.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Figures then, please. I’d like the stats you have backing up your accusation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

So don’t go into male spaces, if you don’t want to. Doesn’t mean it’s okay to disrupt female spaces.

Who are you to tell women and girls that a male presence in a space that is not supposed to have any males in it is safe? You don’t get to decide for us if we feel safe or not, but it’s not just about safety. You’re infringing on our rights.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (23 children)

So don’t go into male spaces, if you don’t want to.

My point was literally to get you to acknowledge it’s about safety not your false dichotomy.

As you well know I prefer neutral spaces and don’t use women’s spaces at all other than bathrooms. Not because I think I shouldn’t be able to, I just don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable.

So okay. I have to build gym days around going home after, can’t go to a spa, can’t ever use a public pool (other than maybe at hotels) can’t try on clothes, a bunch of other stuff. But fact of the matter is we are left to choose between physical danger, making people uncomfortable, or missing out in large sections of public life. Can you at least see how awful it is we have no good choice?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It’s not always about safety. It’s just not. For some yes, in some circumstances, yes. But let’s not pretend that there are no transwomen who do it because of discomfort or out of entitlement.

“So okay. I have to build gym days around going home after,”

Oh no, you have to put a bit of effort into your scheduling so you don’t disrupt someone else’s rights or cause discomfort. Poor baby. How you suffer.

“can’t go to a spa,”

Plenty of spas have unisex spaces. Do some research. But spas are luxuries, not a right.

“can’t ever use a public pool (other than maybe at hotels)”

Put your bathing suit on under your clothes. Take your clothes off at the pool. Get in the pool. Give yourself a few minutes to dry off (these things called towels help with that), put clothes back on over bathing suit. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

“can’t try on clothes,”

Changing rooms when you’re buying/trying on clothes are individual. And even if you had to change in the men’s section, there’s an attendant there to make sure people don’t steal.

“a bunch of other stuff.”

And I’m sure there are ready solutions to the bunch of other stuff too

“But fact of the matter is we are left to choose between physical danger, making people uncomfortable, or missing out in large sections of public life.”

You don’t miss out on shit. You just have to think beyond your self victimization and see that there are several simple solutions.

“Can you at least see how awful it is we have no good choice?”

Nope. I see options and ways around. I also see the need to act like there’s no way to get by without shitting allover females, despite that not being true.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (11 children)

It’s not always about safety. It’s just not. For some yes, in some circumstances, yes. But let’s not pretend that there are no transwomen who do it because of discomfort or out of entitlement.

Sure. I’ll give you there are bad actors in every group. But safety is the justification at core.

Put your bathing suit on under your clothes. Take your clothes off at the pool. Get in the pool. Give yourself a few minutes to dry off (these things called towels help with that), put clothes back on over bathing suit. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

They requiring showing before using the pool most places. That’s the issue.

You don’t miss out on shit. You just have to think beyond your self victimization and see that there are several simple solutions.

Okay this is pointless.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You are creating the false dichotomy. You say you fear getting beat up, now killed, in a mens locker room. The false dichotomy is therefore you must use the womens room, when that is also inappropriate and this is not about your sense of safety but about voyerism and indecent exposure and a dude swinging his dick in front of little girls. You are making this topic about you when you should go back up and look at the topic title.

Ask for trans spaces, oh but that's not validating. Reality is not validating. How do you propose to keep creeps and liars out of women's spaces? I propose keep sex segregated spaces sex segregated. If you need a trans space, ask for it. Yesterdays riot was not about your safety, it was to shut up and intimidate women so that they accommodate creeps swinging their dicks around in little girls faces. If you think that is about you, then you are dangerous and should not be dealt with politely.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (8 children)

I’m literally openly for single occupancy neutral spaces. Trans spaces are an issue because they force us to put ourselves and the only true escape from trans prejudice is stealth. My point has never Been we should be using all women’s spaces it’s that we can’t use men’s spaces.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

I think I get what you’re saying so I’ll clarify-

  1. Im saying that the law is in place so as not to discriminate against gender identity; that doesn’t mean that for TW it can’t be about safety, validation, or yes even perversion. I just meant that this law seems to be in place more so for the sake of the sense of self of some males than safety measures.

  2. Men are responsible for most harm. Period. Against women. Against kids. Against TW and TM. This doesn’t mean that men are on some TW Bashing Rampage. It means sometimes the victim of a violent man is a TW. And that happens much less often than it does to other people.

  3. Love how you tell me that women aren’t unsafe, they just may feel unsafe or uncomfortable- but I should care that you feel unsafe around men? Why does how you feel about what could possibly happen matter more than what countless women and girls fear may possibly happen?

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Seems to me what circling is saying is that because men are responsible for most harm & violence against women, kids, other men & trans-identified people of both sexes, women & girls should have to cede their rights to spaces that exclude all males.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well that is the only fair and logical conclusion /s

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (39 children)

And that happens much less often than it does to other people.

I absolutely and fervently disagree with this.

3 - I’m talking about actual safety. Men hurt trans women way more than trans women hurt natal women. It’s not about feeling safe Its about BEING safe.

But again. My preference is single occupancy neutral spaces.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

You can disagree all you want, if you can’t prove that other males are harming TW in droves your disagreement isn’t worth much lol

It does happen, but there’s no reason (Other than you lacking any other argument) to pretend that any time a male sees a transwoman hes just gonna snap and beat the shit out of them. It just isn’t true. Violence happens to all demographics, that doesn’t justify dismantling the rights that a separate group worked so hard to obtain for themselves.

I understand you prefer single occupancy, that doesn’t make using female spaces fair to females when you don’t have access to single occupancy options.

I don’t think it’s fair or even wise to establish a precedent for dismantling the hard earned rights of one group for the benefit of another.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (37 children)

It isn’t provable. Media and police report violence against trans women as violence against gay men which deflate numbers for one. For 2 we don’t trust police so all but the most serious injuries go unreported. A lot of trans women I know have been attacked. Not one has called the cops.

This is why I should just stop responding to you. You deny and downplay us being harmed and deny that we are left with bad choices. It’s easy to have no empathy for a group when you pretend they aren’t harmed.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

I’m thinking, women, homosexuals, and trans people often get harmed for being what they are, and some report, some don’t. So all we can do is analyze what does get reported.

I’ve said so many fucking times that I know violence does happen- my point is always going to be that it has nothing to do with women and wr should be left out of it entirely. Like it’s absurd to me that you’re acting like I said TW aren’t ever harmed. I’ve acknowledged they are several times. What I’m saying is that you’re acting as if the average man is just going to go ape shit on you for no reason other than you pissing- that’s not true, and you haven’t shown that it is. I’m not dismissing violence against TW- I’m saying I don’t think there’s any basis for acting as if you’re more likely to encounter someone who will attack you than not.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (35 children)

I’m not taking this further. I’ve literally been beaten up by random men specifically for pissing in a men’s room. Like not hypothetical. It happened to me personally. So yeah men just fuck up trans women for no reason and we should all live in fear of them.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (130 children)

then ask for trans spaces. None of the violence you cite makes you a woman nor does it make the women's room a sanctuary for you from male violence. High school locker rooms are violent, gym lockers for adults not so. I've seen weird shit in lockers at gyms but no violence. This isn't high school.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (129 children)

Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves. That’s bad. I advicate where possible for single occupancy neutral spaces but also those would never happen large scale without a government mandate.

And men are dangerous wherever they are. They are just hardest to escape when in a tiny single exit room with more than average privacy and assurances a woman ( a person capable of empathy unlike men) will be there to help or call for help.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (98 children)

“Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves”

Assuming you meant “out”

Question- aside from fear of discrimination (like real discrimination- work, housing, medical- not women not wanting you to join their women’s book club), what real reason is there to be worried about being outed? (Left out violence since we are discussing third spaces as a protective measure, meaning we’d be dealing with preventing violence already by adding third spaces)

Meaning, why can’t we fight for protections for trans people against discrimination, and also rally for trans spaces so everyone- trans or not- is safe and comfortable? Truly the best bet for trans people is to stop trying to get everyone to accept them as women/men, and get people to accept them as trans. So how does it not make the most sense to fight to protect and make space for trans people, and make it safer for them to be out? Particularly when there are so many visibly trans trans people anyway?

Im not being snarky, I’m genuinely asking. I feel like any community that needs protections or established rights has to fight for them, but no other community fights for those things while also fighting to conceal their status as a member of that community.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Question- aside from fear of discrimination (like real discrimination- work, housing, medical- not women not wanting you to join their women’s book club), what real reason is there to be worried about being outed?

None materially, but that’s an ever present threat. Plus literally everyone will treat you better if they think you are cis. My life sucks because everyone knows I’m trans. I’d kill (metaphorically) to just be seen as normal.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay but the rest of my question was literally about focusing on making things better for trans people. So I’m asking, what if the goal was “safe spaces specifically for trans people, as well as establishing rights/protections for trans people against discrimination” (as we did for women. And lgb. And poc. And refugees. And immigrants. And… you get my point)? Meaning why not try to focus on making it easier/better for trans people to be openly trans, again particularly since many trans people don’t have much choice in the matter, instead of trying to protect them on the basis of being trans while also trying to help conceal that they are trans?

Like- you’d kill to be seen as normal, but if that’s not an option, shouldn’t we try to make things better for you and others in your shoes?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (95 children)

Sorry got clipped off there. Being “trans not men or women” is not going to lead to us living normal lives. It’s necessaarilly othering. Plus many might take offense and feel like shit to be told legally they aren’t real people.

Plus trans people will never be accepted. Like being visibly trans will never not suck. It’s not salvageable. Stealth will always be better for the stealth person.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (94 children)

Being trans is not normal. That’s not an insult or anything- It’s just not. And being trans doesn’t mean you’re not a real person so idk what you’re talking about with that.

Being trans is an abnormal thing, it’s rare. Trans people have to accept that. Because even if you stealth, there’s always risk of being outed. Or of having to trust someone, even just a potential romantic partner, enough to tell them.

Idk what you think a “normal” life is, but if protections are in place that makes it easier for you to get a job, a home, and medical care when you need it, the rest is kind of on you, as far as what your life is made up of. Date people who are open to being with trans people. Make friends with people who don’t care, or embrace your community. Being out doesn’t mean you can’t live your life- I’m not really getting what you’d be kept from.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (93 children)

When you are trans you aren’t just a person. You being trans defines every interaction. And for the negative.

Immagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain. Everyone. Immagine what that’s like. Because that’s what life is for an out trans person. Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal and everyone will remind you of it every day even without getting into safety.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

I promise you the rest of us don’t care nearly as much as you think we do. most of us generally dgaf, we just don’t want to be forced to participate or be affected since it has nothing to do with us- that’s not disdain, it’s just not wanting to constantly gaslight ourselves, attempt to reprogram ourselves, or go along with things we know to be untrue. you said trans people are being told they aren’t “real” people- that’s what I referred to earlier. Being othered when you actually are « other » (you can’t deny being trans is an incredibly unique experience that the rest of us- all 99%- can not begin to relate to) is not the same as not being considered real. And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

I think seeing as how you have carte blanche to dismantle female rights, it’s a bit ridiculous to act as if everyone Everyone. looks at you with pity or disdain. If that were true, women would still have sex based rights, spaces, and sports. Why are people bending over backwards to accommodate trans people, even « trans » people, if everyone Everyone. looks on you with disdain? Why the cancel culture? Why rewrite lgb history? Why the newspeak? Why are people burning jkr’s books? Why the mass shut down of pro women/trans critical Reddit subs? Why a thousand other little and big things that contradict your narrative that everyone hates/pities trans people?

You’re actually not entitled to a life free of pity or disdain, unfortunately. So if people feeling sorry for you truly is the price you have to pay for women to maintain their rights and for you to obtain yours- that doesn’t exactly come across as a raw deal to me. Particularly since what you’re saying is a gross exaggeration anyway…

You « can’t be normal » because you refuse to attempt to treat your actual mental condition (and call any attempts at finding treatment conversion therapy) and you struggle to/can’t accept reality (not you you, the community in general, it seems). Don’t put that on everyone else, we have nothing to do with that. What even is “normal”? When you live a life having altered as much of yourself as you can the way someone does when they « transition », I don’t think you can really expect normalcy, at best you can hope for routine. By nature of being trans you have a very specific and distinct experience that nobody who isn’t trans can relate to. I don’t really see how that’s ever going to be « normal ». If you mean live a stereotype of a life, plenty of out trans people get married and have families and just Idk go to work and do whatever « normal » shit is every day. There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Im sorry, I just don’t think not wanting people to pity you or have what you consider disdain- but is more likely indifference and/or a lack of a sense of obligation to placate- is enough to justify undermining women’s rights instead of fighting for your own on the basis of what you literally are. It’s absurd and self serving to refuse a route that would benefit the majority of trans people because you want to be able to keep being trans a secret so more people might like you 🙄.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (49 children)

And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

They won’t no matter what. And it is a shameful thing that should be kept a secret if you can. Stealth is your only chance at a normal life.

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

Yeah I know if you don’t care we are treated like wretches.

There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Because they are stealth. You don’t get a life as an out trans person. No one will love you. You will struggle to fine even mediocre employment. You will exist and noone will care of you live or die. Stealth people get lives. We get … existences. Shit this isn’t even about me. I don’t pass. But I want others who might be able to to have a shot at a life worth living.

Humans are social creatures and if you are treated like a freak by everyone you interact with it effects you.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

It’s just odd to me- in my head Im presenting the best (realistic) case scenario: protections and acceptance as trans, and you’re just like- nah, leave us in this in between stage with all this tension and discomfort on all sides.

It just kind of sounds like according to you, no matter what any of us does, life is just gonna suck for trans people. Trying to get people to see TW as women and TM as men has gotten mixed results to say the least, you can’t fathom that we might accept and support you as what you are, you don’t want us to fight for safe spaces for you because you don’t want to be outed, you want single occupancy but think it’s not realistically going to be implemented- like what the fuck do you want? Lol what do you hope for? Because frankly you’re painting this incredibly dark picture where no matter what you’re just kind of assed out in all areas of life.

I don’t have a point or a question Im just lost at this point lol

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Learned helplessness coupled with an expectation on others to solve any and all discomforts in life is what’s ruining these peoples lives, not imagined pity.

Any solution that is not all women stepping in to solve male pain is unacceptable, impossible, and very cruel. Like..this conversation could be used to illustrate the waif and hermit subtype of BPD to be brutally honest.

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    [–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

    Imagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain.

    I mean, being a woman who rejects femininity, I'm pretty used to being treated as a failure at anything other than making men's dicks go up. I hear talks of how subhuman women are every day, including from trans communities who are currently pushing back decades of progress women have made for the sake of their validation.

    Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal

    Well, yeah, you're in a group that's getting plastic surgeries and amputations, creating an artificial hormonal imbalance and spending a lifetime on hormones not meant for your body for no reason other than having a mental illness that makes you think a healthy, normal body you have is "wrong" and "disgusting". Even the trans people recognise that passing this off as having a male or female body isn't going to pass, hence why so many progressive positions revolve not around acceptance, but tricking people that you're really the opposite sex as effectively as possible. Imagine if gay people only insisted their partners legally be treated as the opposite sex so they could feel "normal", or if women had to amputate their breasts and take testosterone to stop being treated as subhuman...Oh wait, that one's already happening.

    [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

    What does this mean: "Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves"; and how is it different than how a man uses the men's room because his body defines him as such or a woman uses the women's room because her body defines her as such? Why is it bad? Also, that is one hell of a sexist assumption that men are incapable of empathy and women are somehow more capable of it. What you're seeing is the adaptation of women as a coherent segment of our society adapting to the fact that they are the smaller and more at risk of male violence than men. Are you seeing empathy around this Wi Spa thing? When you don't see this womanly empathy, do you then write them off as right wing evil terfs, instead of equally women as the women you think you get empathy from? Very sexist assumptions you got there.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (19 children)

    It was a typo. “Out themselves”

    Also, that is one hell of a sexist assumption that men are incapable of empathy and women are somehow more capable of it.

    If you say so. Men are monsters and I’m done softballing that stance. Women are capable of empathy. Men are monsters. That’s not a slam on women. They’re humans with emotions other than “hate” “lust” or “nothing”.

    [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

    So, we all "out" ourselves when we enter the bathroom. There can be no other way, unless you get your supposed wish and make every business build god-knows how many bathrooms. For a gym that fits one hundred people: how many separate facilities should they build?

    Men are monsters and women are "capable" of empathy: sexist assumptions upon which gender is built by QT and by misogynists who want to keep women down. Every time I walk into a bathroom, I have to check to see if I think I'm going to get mugged, as I grew up in a violent city with a lot of crime. Fearing the mens room does not mean any one can then use the women's room. A adult gym locker room is not a violent place. Your perception of it is your perception. Using the women's room because they can't stop you and they can't beat you up has nothing to do with the empathy you imagine.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (17 children)

    It’s not sexist. Men are monsters. Woman are dynamic humans. You can’t be sexist against men so it isn’t sexist.

    A men’s locker room is an isolate room with only men in it therefore no one to possible help you, restricted exits, and full of the worst kind of men fresh off a post workout testosterone boost. There isn’t a less safe place for a trans woman.

    [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

    You are sexist, you make sexist assumptions about both men and women. You can't make up fake rules about not being able to be sexist against men, because sexism hems in men and women equally into their own pens. Trans people look at the pen they are not hemmed into according to their birth sex and somehow (editing the next part of this sentence to be more accurate) imagine they belong realize they would rather be in in the other pen, either to hide from being confronted with the reality of their inadequacy or to be predators of the AGP or other varieties, instead of realizing the pens are the problem. You are making shit up about mens locker rooms. You only feel safe in women's locker rooms because you have the same advantage over them that you fear, that makes you bullies. You don't want to be around people you fear but want to be around people you can physically dominate.

    [–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    So here's the deal if all or even most men were actually monsters human civilization would not be possible. Sexism against men is possible, but it doesn't have as much authoritative weight behind it as the institutionalized sexism against women. Feminism not the liberal feminism bullshit but actual feminism is about separating personality from sex. Little boys can be affectionate, empathetic, emotional and caring. (There are some incredibly thoughtful sweet little boys out there who grow up to be fantastic men) Little girls can be stoic, tough and domineering. Your sex is not your destiny, you could have any personality under the sun, we're all humans doing the best we can. Neither sex is inferior to the other, but we are very different physically and we need to account for those differences in law. Most behavior differences can be attributed to nurture, there may be some innate personality differences, but that would be very difficult to separate from cultural influence.

    I seriously doubt that the average Joe would attack any transwoman they saw on site. Most likely they would give them a double take then carry on about their business. Many average Joe's might crack a tasteless joke, but that's more annoying than anything. I find it kind of funny that even I have more faith in men than you do. It's a very small percentage of men who are predators that I have to watch out for, most men are fine and thank god for that.

    I don't know if this will help you feel better about men, but a very low percentage of men are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime. Many violent offenders also have mental health issues which is unfortunate. We really need to do a better job of taking care of the mentally ill in society. The 1% of the population accountable for 63% of all violent crime convictions

    [–]Juniperius 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Plenty of men at this spa seemed willing to help the guy who may or may not be a transwoman, none were willing to help the women who were being put in danger by him. Did you watch the videos? Do you think Mr. Woke Moustache is a monster who would murder you? What about all the manarchists who attacked the women protesting?

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    men are dangerous wherever they are. They are just hardest to escape when in a tiny single exit room with more than average privacy and

    But you’re arguing for making men allowed to use the women’s room on a whim despite saying men are dangerous.

    Why would letting men into women’s spaces make anyone safer?

    [–]divingrightintowork 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    When my state introduced self-ID in bathrooms there was no decrease in bathroom violence, because there wasn't really any existent bathroom violence. Also I've had no problems using male restrooms when necessary. How many times have you been physically attacked in the bathroom when making a beeline to the stall, then sink, then back out?

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

    How many times have you been physically attacked in the bathroom when making a beeline to the stall, then sink, then back out?

    Once. When I was attacked I was walking in and headed to a stall. That’s why I stopped using men’s bathrooms. I was attacked for literally no possible other reason than because I am visibly trans.

    [–]divingrightintowork 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    You don't think men are ever randomly violent to other men?

    [–]adungitit 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

    It’s not just comfort. It’s safety

    If male trans people understood safety, they wouldn't be demanding women's spaces include men just so they'd be validated. That's the whole point. You might advocate third spaces, but the vast, vast majority of male trans people do not, which means they don't register the actual problem with men beyond the bits that specifically go against their own interests (much like how even the men who are relentlessly bullied and screwed over by other men will still always take the side of men to work against women).

    [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    no amount of indecent exposure is acceptable. Your sexed body matters in public. it is your body that everyone identifies you as because that is what is see-able and knowable. what claims are made about some internal sense of a supposedly gendered identity only matter to the person who has some internal sense of their supposedly gendered identity.

    How is this even a question? Who gives a fuck about what someone thinks they are or says they are? One's sense of their own identity is a lie some people make up to explain to themselves how they fit into the world. the more one clings to an identity instead of adapting to the physical world they live in and accepting physical reality and the language that describes (including adult human male and adult human female as definitions for man and woman which are the two and only two sex categories used in reproduction, and the social construct of gender having nothing what so ever to do with any of it), the more they experience cognitive dissonance. The idea that woman or man is an identity and not a body type is just simply a stupid idea and it is too often used by predators.

    The Wi Spa shows there can be no public policy that protects privacy rights of women and little girls that also allows for predators to lie about their "Gender". Gender has no place in public policy, and it should not replace sex as a basis for legal identification. Team QT can celebrate, the law will side with you and continue creating hell on earth-- but hey you can get all the erections gender euphoria metaphorical and literal rocks off all you want.

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    Should trans status give individuals immunity from sex crime law?

    Absofuckinglutely not.

    Exposing a penis anywhere that is not the one room set aside for penises to be out, is indecent exposure. Considering how unabashedly agp many tw are, it’s often sexual assault as well.

    Identity should not mean shit to law. Identity is personal, not public.

    Do women have a right to choose who is and who is not allowed to view their naked bodies?

    Yes. Without any justification or questioning.

    Do women have a right to only see penis when they consent to it?

    Yes. Without any justification or questioning. Forcing someone to view your penis, regardless of how feminine one claims it to be, is sexual harassment.

    [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    can you imagine a world where they'd get that immunity? They'll be fighting for it very soon, if they don't already have it. They are already turned swinging their dicks around in front of little girls into the little girl leering at them. Where's Lorena Bobbit when we need her?

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    Lorena? Being vilified as the instigator and abusive one in her former marriage.

    It’s unreal and I gotta wonder how hard it is for the women who support this shit to keep up the cognitive dissonance needed to say, out loud, that little girls need to see more cocks.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

    It’s truly very alarming that so many people do not see the issue with teaching little girls that it’s normal to be exposed to a penis

    Like, identity and valid gender feels uwu aside- how do you not see that that opens the door to problems even in private spaces, while increasing the risks for public ones????

    It’s not enough to not give a fuck about women, they don’t even care about the dangers this opens innocent children to. We’ve spent centuries teaching girls to be cautious around men and not only are they lobbying (successfully) to undo that, they’re taking it a step further and saying not only to not be weary of men generally- don’t be weary of the ones desperate to share intimate spaces with you, and also if they get naked and you feel uncomfortable you should work on yourself. It’s setting up removing any sense of boundaries.

    It’s giving off heavy “grooming” vibes.

    And then they get mad when we associate them with predators or say we feel unsafe.

    And then gaslight us for seeing them as predators and feeling unsafe.

    They should just change their flag to a giant bright red one

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    It’s absolutely grooming children. They are teaching them that it’s okay to be around naked men when it’s not. It’s not safe and fuck it, call me a prude, but it’s not decent.

    It’s removing all boundaries that protect the children and replacing them with the idea that women who oppose this are the ones to be frightened of.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    It’s removing all boundaries that protect the children and replacing them with the idea that women who oppose this are the ones to be frightened of.

    Which just ends up ensuring that if something does happen, the children won’t know who to turn to for help or protection.

    There’s nobody that won’t be sacrificed for them

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Exactly! Gods, we already hear about how it’s very very bad to ‘misgender’ sex offenders. Imagine being afraid to report the man who’s touched you because you might be rejected by everyone as a bigot.

    It’s totally fucked, and seems so calculated. Every scrap won by feminists is being quickly and methodically torn apart.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Yes, not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but a clear grooming agenda seems to have taken over Western society: little girls & women have to get used to dicks & balls & men's naked bodies shoved in their faces. Kids must be exposed to plenty of kink at Pride. Toddlers must be taken to "drag queen story hours" so they become accustomed to the sight of men dressed as grotesque caricatures of women & learn these men must be referred to as "Miss" & "Lady" & regarded as women.

    Now we've reached a point where when grown men wave their dicks in the faces of little girls, the little girls are the ones at fault - not just for feeling frightened & distressed at the sight of dick, balls & naked big scary predatory men - but for looking in the first place. Those awful little girls should be raised to have better manners.

    The children who've been accused of "leering at" the genitals of the nice, innocent sex offender at the WI Spa should also be taller; after all, it's not the fault of flashers that so many little kids faces are the same distance from the floor as their dicks. Why can't these kids learn to look at their sex abusers in the eye?

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yes!! It’s so pervasive and so demanding of women and girls in particular! It just looks so methodical when it’s all laid out like this. There is no refuge

    [–]FlanJam 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    Update on the incident (dont wanna make a whole new thread so I'll post here):

    tl;dr People protested Wi Spa after the incident. Antifa group accused them of transphobia and attacked them. Police stepped in to break it up.

    [–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Gosh the news stories titles are infuriating. What about women's rights? This isn't a case of some poor beleaguered trans woman. He deliberately exposed himself and viewed women's naked bodies without their consent. It blows my mind how tilted the coverage is.

    [–]FlanJam 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yeah and I don't like the way they frame it as pro-trans vs anti-trans. Its so loaded, it makes the "anti-trans" side the bad guys by default. I don't even think of it as a trans issue, its a women's issue. The fact that the person is trans doesn't matter. Its the fact that they have a penis, that's the issue.

    [–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    They even physically attacked some men, who were protecting women.

    It was so hard to watch parts where gang of 7-10 young tall men were surrounding, intimidating and pressuring sole women with signs "women can say NO" or similar.

    That is what we get with those Biden laws - now misogynistic men "finally" got the ability to harass women and not get judged or jailed for it. Even more - so many press is praising or justifying them, misrepresenting the situation.

    [–]FlanJam 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Yeah they were really hard to watch, the violence is genuinely disturbing. I don't even know if its possible to reason with these people anymore.

    [–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    And newslaters, TV news outlets are mostly protecting those men and blaming their victims instead.

    Have you seen that "prominent pro-trans feminist" saying that "it is 6 years old and 9 years old girls fault that they were looking at penis, when that poor marginalized transwoman stood in front of them"? And then her answer was "then do not go spa and sit at home if you don't like that your kids are in danger now" to one of the mothers. We got to a situation again, where women don't have our safe spaces, so we can't have social life and we are back to not being able to work, receive education and live social life - just like in 1800s.

    [–]FlanJam 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I think I saw that, or at least I saw something similar. A 'feminist' writer said something like its rude for the girls to stare at the person's penis, as if the trans person was the victim in this scenario. Absolutely backwards bonkers, I feel like I'm in an episode of the twilight zone.

    [–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    The one I am talking posted thread just few months before this event about "rape culture", where was explaining that "rape culture is when media and people around trying to gaslight you that rapists are doing nothing wrong and it is victims fault, and that men being naked around women when women do not consent is part of it". And now she is personally participating in this rape culture by doing the gaslighting.

    [–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I never thought it was acceptable. If trans identified males were only/mainly worried their safety in men's spaces, they would fight for third spaces, just like women did/do for theirs. The spa guy was clearly a pervert because he chose to use women's section instead of the mixed one.

    [–]worried19 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    I'd say you could make a reasonable compromise by admitting post-SRS trans women to those spaces. However, the TRA movement is not interested in compromise.

    My main issue with the Wi Spa is that they know California has self-ID laws. Since they are aware that's the case, they should post something to that effect to alert patrons. It's my understanding the spa had a sign up saying that males who entered the female-only area would be prosecuted. If the space is in fact unisex by law, then they should not advertise the space as being solely for women. Any reasonable woman would expect a place labeled for women with that type of sign to be restricted to natal female individuals.

    [–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Should trans status give individuals immunity from sex crime law?

    No. A nation of laws (ideally) holds all citizens accountable to those laws. Trans individuals are citizens, and therefore beholden to the law.

    Do women have a right to choose who is and who is not allowed to view their naked bodies?

    Yes, but this is routinely violated in practice.

    Do women have a right to only see penis when they consent to it?

    Yes, but (of course) this is also violated in practice. And it's intrinsically at odds with self-ID policy.

    Wi Spa is shaping up as a ground test for self-ID policy in the U.S., and we're seeing how well that's going. Women and girls were deliberately and needlessly exposed to male genitalia; the owner of said genitalia had two other options of spaces to use (male and mixed); the usual players (antifa, q-anon, etc.) have already co-opted the publicity; U.S. media is largely framing the incident as women complaining about a transwoman in their spaces (very few outlets are mentioning that the person in question has a penis and testicles, and openly displayed them). We can't know for sure, but I kind of doubt this issue would have blown up if the person had been a post-op trans woman. The exposure of male genitalia to women, especially girls, is central to this argument -- regardless of what "genitals are reductionist/irrelevant" activists have insisted upon.

    I submit that the women documenting, objecting to, and walking out of the spa are more representative of U.S. public sentiment about the incident than trans rights activists and detractors are, and that this will continue to decrease public sympathy for both trans and LGB issues over time.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (25 children)

    That is an incomplete understanding of how criminal laws work both since they vary by location and that they usually have some intention element (mens rea) ranging from recklessly to intentionally

    That aside, it shouldn’t matter ideally. Yes pre op trans women shouldn’t expose their genitals in those settings but also anyone leering in a locker room should be removed, trans or not.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    Only female parts should be in female spaces.

    That’s literally why the space is designated for females.

    As much as I disagree, there’s some argument that can be made for post op TW using female spaces (not that a neovagina is at all a female “part”), there’s no justification for someone whose penis is still in its original form to be in a female space. Period.

    [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

    nice way to blame the victim! Who's leering? No one. That's an assumption or a projection on your part, and if you read the topic at the top of this thing, you'll see you are changing the subject from indecent exposure to some silly idea that people want to leer at a dude's junk or a trans person's junk in a locker room. In the video that set this all off, the woman talks about a man swinging his dick in front of little girls. No leering was mentioned, not until you tried to change the subject. In fact, 'trans' only comes up when people tried to excuse the creepy and probably criminal behavior. It would be criminal for a man to swing his dick around in a women's locker room in front of a little girl. Wondering if the person was trans is an attempt to justify the action. How the dick swinger identifies changes nothing about the action or the offense. But, no one was leering-- that's you're fictional addition to the issue.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (13 children)

    What the hell are you talking about blaming the victim. If a woman Leers at another woman she should be removed whether a trans person is present on either side? Do you disagree? I brought up leering because voyerism was specifically mentioned in the question.

    That’s a separate point from the one where I assert a pre op trans woman should remain covered in a women’s space. Or really anywhere. I don’t understand a trans woman who wouldn’t be ashamed of that.

    [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

    You the only one talking about leering, you are trying to change the subject. Should every supposition of leering be accepted as factual even when no such supposition was made? How do you define leering? Regardless, you're talking about it, I'm not, no one here is, you are changing the subject away from a man swinging his dick in front of a little girl in a locker room, only presumed to be a trans woman to excuse the action of swinging a dick around in front of a little girl in a locker room.

    Why go into a locker to remain covered? But I thought you wanted single occupancy spaces? Why are you talking about what pre op trans women (which is the vast majority) do in women's locker room, when you should be advocating for what you say you advocate for?

    [–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    circlingmyownvoid2 is on topic. I did specifically mention Voyeurism as well, because women who are using women only locker/spa rooms are only consenting to be naked in front of other women. Men pre op or post op should not be allowed into women's only changing rooms, because women have a right to choose who views them naked and who does not. Fully or partially clothed men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms either. By using a women's single sex space they have denied every single male no matter how he personally identifies that consent. Women are not a roadshow for any male to peruse and view as he pleases. It doesn't matter if he's leering, staring or just plain ol' looking. Any man looking at naked women in a women's only locker room is violating their consent and should risk being charged with Voyeurism.

    Many trans activists try to argue that good behavior should mean that women should make an exception for some males in the women's locker room, but that is not a justifiable, because their very presence in that space is a violation. The most well behaved transwoman in the world still does not belong in the women's locker room and he is still at the very least committing Voyeurism unless he closes his eyes the entire time.

    So I disagree with circlingmyownvoid2, because I believe even if no 3rd space is currently available no male should be allowed in a women's only single sex space even if he has had genital surgery or made sure to cover the twig n' berries, that does not negate his maleness. Nor does it give him the right to violate women's consent, but I do appreciate circlingmyownvoid2's willingness to debate.

    [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    No one was leering at the guy swinging his dick around in the Wi Spa, the voyeurism that is worth talking about is the men going into women's locker rooms pretending to be women like it's a free strip club and getting off on it emotionally and more-- which then escalates into exhibitionism like pathetic dudes swinging their dicks around in front of little girls. It's all a bunch of sad neglected pathetic guys with no guidance in their lives acting out their cries for help that escalate until society find the annoyance unbearable. We're almost there. And you know it.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (9 children)

    The question literally has voyerism in it. That’s why I mentioned leering in the room. Because the question specifically included voyerism. What is with you?

    [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    Do you really think women in a locker room are being voyeurs when a guy is swinging his dick around in the women's locker room? A voyeur sneeks around staring at people, behind bushes, though holes in walls or floors, with cameras set up, or a guy hiding behind the fake facade of "I'm a woman" in the women's locker room. The women who, in shock, see a dude swinging his dick around in their locker room are not voyuers. You are flipping the definition around. They are victims, and they are seeing a train wreck except that train wreck in the Wi Spa thing was exposing itself indecently to a little girl. Team QT Team Pedophile you have no leg to stand on here.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

    You are conflating my statements on voyerism with the separate comments on exhibitionism, I suspect in bad faith.

    [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    I might be conflating somethings here. But, women in their own locker rooms are not being voyuers. They are not in some space looking to be leering at someone. the Voyuer would be an AGP getting his emotional and perhaps physical rocks off being in a women's locker room looking at all the women while also engaging in exhibitionism. Women who look in shock or horror at a dick swinging around in a women's locker room are not being voyuers. The closest they could be to that would be more like rubber-necking at a train wreck. Voyuers get off on seeing what they are not supposed to be seeing because of privacy, peeping Toms.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

    But, women in their own locker rooms are not being voyuers.

    Unless they are. Like by leering at someone. Which was my point.

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Why are you trying to make this about a woman you are imagining leering, when the obvious problem is transwomen are the ones leering and flopping their penises around in places where they should not even have opened the door.

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      [–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      That is the point of single sex spaces. Any male entering them is willfully disregarding women's consent and can be immediately kicked out. This strict crystal clear standard makes it relatively easy to prosecute offenders.

      By stepping into that space he has violated women's consent and is committing at bare minimum Voyeurism. It doesn't matter if he is leering or not. The women there did not consent to any male viewing their naked bodies. He could be a world famous painter who just wants to paint naked women, but if they did not consent to it he is to all intents and purposes a sexual predator and his neutral artistic intent is irrelevant. There's a reason artists hire models and don't go traipsing into opposite sex changing rooms when they need to practice drawing the human form. Consent matters.

      If we make exceptions for some males we can no longer hold predatory voyeuristic & exhibitionistic men accountable which was why the Wi Spa fiasco happened. What if the man who entered the women's area was one of those extra super special exceptions? What if he really felt deep down that he was actually a woman on the inside? We see exactly how that plays out in the real world. Women are told to suck it up and now they no longer have a safe place to change nor are they allowed to seek justice for Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure. The comfort & desires of 1 male has been put above every single woman who goes to that spa.

      Less than 1% of rapes result in convictions

      Now if the conviction rate for rapists is 1% how low do you think it is for voyeurs and exhibitionists? I bet a lot of them face 0 consequences for sexually harassing women. Sexual harassment & assault is notoriously hard to prove and convict (especially in places where for privacy reasons cameras are not allowed like you know a locker rooms/spa rooms & don't get me started on the predators who place cameras in women's restrooms/locker rooms so they can violate women even further by posting the footage online. About 80% of the victims of spy camera porn are women.).

      Women's only spaces are one of the very few areas where holding sexual predators accountable is a no brainer. If he wasn't a sexual predator he wouldn't have entered the women's only area in the first place. By making exceptions for men who claim to be women we go back to square 1 with that lovely 1% conviction rate. Allowing any male in destroys the entire purpose of women's single sex spaces. At that point we may as well make all spaces unisex, which leaves women once again having to deal with sexual harassment/rape with no recourse or justice the vast majority of the time making the space safe for no one. Now that's what I call a lose lose scenario.

      [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

      You can foist them blame onto victims all you like by using the term leering, but women aren’t leaning over anyone’s shoulders or sticking their heads under doors to get a better look at trans women’s penises.

      The women and girls are exposed. They aren’t seeking out the exposure as you incorrectly frame the situation.

      [–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

      I’m not talking about trans woman. I’m talking about anyone leering at someone in a women’s locker room. Cis or trans. Anyone leering should be removed. That’s my response to the voyerism part of the question.

      [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      The voyeurs here are transwomen who undress in women’s spaces, thereby exposing unconsenting women to their male bodies.

      [–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

      That would be exhibitionism not voyerism.

      [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Oh you’re right. They are actually exhibitionists and vouyers, undressing in front of unconsenting women and watching unconsenting women undress Thankyou for the correction.

      Regardless, we aren’t trying to sneak a peek or leering at the men who invade our spaces because of some lady identity bullshit.

      The transwoman is not the person being leered at, the women and girls are. Nobody is leering when he bares his penis. They are being exposed to him.

      [–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      What, you think that male exhibitionism & voyeurism are mutually exclusive? That a male swinging his dick & balls in a women's space where girls & women are naked can't possibly be getting aroused at the girls' & women's bodies in his view whilst he is simultaneously getting off off displaying his dick & balls in their faces?

      [–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

      No. I made a blanket statement about anyone in a locker room. Women in a women’s room, men in a men’s room, anyone in either. You are making it about trans people when I stated a general rule.

      [–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      No, I'm not making it about people who call themselves trans. I am pointing out that when a male person goes into a sex-segregated space for female people where women & girls are naked & flaunts his dick & balls in their faces (exhibitionism), he is usually looking at their naked bodies at the same time without their consent (voyeurism). Plus, he is usually getting off not just from violating their boundaries & seeing their naked bodies, he is also getting off on seeing the discomfort & distress that his naked, leering presence causes them.

      I don't get how you can be so aware of, & vigilant about, the dangers you say men pose to males who "identify as" women, but so blithely dismissive of the dangers men pose to girls & women & so unconcerned about the welfare of female human beings.

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