QT: Do you regret any part of your medical transition?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]adungitit 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

there is no time I wanted my breasts.

This is such a strange argument to me and I see it a lot. I never wanted white skin, or blue eyes or those back dimples. But I have them. No-one ever asked me if I wanted these things, no-one ever cared how I felt about them, no one cares if I cry over them or jump from joy. I wasn't given a list before being born to check which traits I want. I couldn't "want" to be taller, hairier, stronger. These are simply the cards I have been dealt and there hasn't been one moment ever where my wishes or feelings factored into them.

I notice that a lot of people on the trans (rights) side seem to think women love being women, that they get euphoric from having breasts, they get overjoyed from being female. From a patriarchal and liberal feminist standpoint, this makes sense: there is a ridiculous amount of focus in society placed on sexualising women's bodies through the male gaze and for male satisfaction, and even "progressive" movements selling this as female empowerment and liberation. The image is painted of a sexy, very confident half-naked woman who's in control of her (male-gaze pandering) sexuality.

In practice however, anxieties over one's body and a lifetime of endured objectification, self-hatred and sexual dysfunction are very common in women. In my experience, they're so common that I no longer believe any woman who tries to paint a picture of a woman overjoyed by these things. It's like asking me to believe that your average Muslim woman really did choose her subhuman god-given role. No matter how euphoric it makes her, I'm not going to buy it when we know from history how genuine this contentment with one's oppression is.

[–]Gravel_Roads 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

No-one ever asked me if I wanted these things, no-one ever cared how I felt about them, no one cares if I cry over them or jump from joy.

I... don't understand what this has to do with what I said, though. I got rid of something I didn't want. Now that it's gone, I am happier than I was to have it. So for me, I was solving a very basic problem with a very basic solution. Whether or not someone "cares" if I "cry over it" is irrelevant; that wouldn't have solved the problem one way or another.

These are simply the cards I have been dealt and there hasn't been one moment ever where my wishes or feelings factored into them.

Right, but in my case, my wishes and feelings were factored for. I'm not saying my solution would resolve any issues you may have with your own body, but my wishes and feelings very much were consulted in regards for the decisions I made for my own body.

I notice that a lot of people on the trans (rights) side seem to think women love being women, that they get euphoric from having breasts, they get overjoyed from being female.

??? I... don't think any of this. I assume women are a diverse population who probably each have a unique relationship with their own bodies. I don't speak for any of them. I didn't remove my breasts based on how women feel about breasts, I had my breasts removed based on how I felt about my own breasts.

If anything, I agree that women aren't poorly represented as 3-dimensional beings.

In practice however, anxieties over one's body and a lifetime of endured objectification, self-hatred and sexual dysfunction are very common in women. In my experience, they're so common that I no longer believe any woman who tries to paint a picture of a woman overjoyed by these things. It's like asking me to believe that your average Muslim woman really did choose her subhuman god-given role. No matter how euphoric it makes her, I'm not going to buy it when we know from history how genuine this contentment with one's oppression is.

None of this has anything to do with the topic, though? Again, I don't assume anything about women. If you're just taking the moment to get this off your chest, that's fine, scream it to the heavens, cuz it's a good thing to be mad about. I'm not telling you not to care about these things, women are worth fighting for.

But I'm still happier to have had my breasts removed. It's probably hyperbolic to call it 'euphoria', in the way one might say "I'm STARVING" if they're honestly just "hungry", but the relief I feel to not have breasts is very real. I don't hate my body. I love it. I love it more now that I've changed it. So, for me, it's not a dysfunction because it improved my life. It has nothing to do with presuming the thoughts of women, or how they "should" feel about their experiences. That's a much bigger conversation for women to have with themselves.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I got rid of something I didn't want. Now that it's gone, I am happier than I was to have it. So for me, I was solving a very basic problem with a very basic solution.

The issue is that amputating body parts that are perceived as shameful or wrong etc. in a society constantly sending women these messages shouldn't be the solution, even if it seems "simple". It's also incredibly simple for people with body integrity dysphoria to amputate their limbs, or for gay people to stay in the closet. A solution being simple isn't the best for that reason, especially in lieu of mental illness or trauma.

Whether or not someone "cares" if I "cry over it" is irrelevant; that wouldn't have solved the problem one way or another.

That's very debatable. I do believe that if women were not hated and treated as subhuman to such a degree, that they wouldn't have to reach for these surgeries, medication and various misogynistic ideologies that promise male approval in order to fix what isn't actually the problem. I can't fault women for getting these procedures done and falling for these ideologies because being seen as a woman sucks and everyone knows it. But women seeing themselves as the problem for being female and ironically being convinced they're unique in the world for it, never changed anything. Amputating perfectly healthy and normal body parts, as well as other unnecessary procedures that come in the same package, should never be seen as a "simple solution".

??? I... don't think any of this. I assume women are a diverse population who probably each have a unique relationship with their own bodies. I don't speak for any of them.

This seems like another trend in the trans (rights) community: pretending that all those women are sooo impossible to understand and that surely said misunderstanding must be validation of one's non-womanness. I have lost count of the women who say they don't need feminism or the women who are not like other girls, and despite their indignation, I have not once been convinced by people shoving their heads in the sand regarding their physical reality because they don't want to hear it.

Again, no one in the universe asked any woman, regardless of which pronouns she uses or which surgeries she's gotten, how she feels about being female. The simple reality is that these were the cards we have been dealt. The fact that women deal differently with the realities of being female, and that surgeries and drugs exist, doesn't actually change the fact that they are female.

I didn't remove my breasts based on how women feel about breasts, I had my breasts removed based on how I felt about my own breasts.

Except you would literally have nothing to remove if you weren't in the same basket as all women who feel a certain way about their female bodies because they are female. So trying to pretend this is something that has nothing to do with you is like me trying to pretend that I don't understand English or that I don't have two feet. Remember, no-one cared how you felt about being female, nor did they care how I felt about it, nor that woman, nor that one. You didn't get VIP access to a character creator any more than any of us did. I'm not trying to be cruel here, but trans people have to understand that their wishes don't actually change reality and that self hatred or cosmetic surgeries aren't something unique to them. Your experience of hating being female and hating how your female body is treated is one that can only ever be experienced by a female person. The choice of modifying or amputating parts of one's female body via surgeries and medical procedures for whatever reason is one that can only be made by a female person. And pretending like all the other women wished their breasts into existence because they're sooo foreign and complicated isn't going to change that.

But I'm still happier to have had my breasts removed.

I honestly don't intend to debate whether or not you're happy. I have met people who were made happy by all sorts of things. Hell, cults and drugs have such power over people precisely because they make them happy and provide a simple alternative to a shitty reality. Men are happy having women as bang maids, and guess how much that changes my ideas on feminism? The simple fact is, I don't want an "easy fix" in the form of amputations, surgeries and a lifetime of an artificially induced hormonal imbalance just so one could avoid being treated like an object for having the gall to be born female. Again, I don't fault women for doing it, and it certainly seems better than enduring the "gender validating" shit that women are supposed to be made euphoric by, but I do fault the misogynistic ideologies and shoving one's head in the sand because we're supposed to already have "simple solutions". My issue isn't really with how happy you as one single individual are, my concern is with how the views I keep seeing trans people/supporters espouse keep feeding into this idea that women have an easy fix to misogyny through surgeries, medication or just plain ol' pretending and denial.

It's probably hyperbolic to call it 'euphoria'

But the fact that you can feel shame over your female body and euphoria over superficial modifications to your female biology is an experience only a woman can have. That's kind of the point. No amount of claiming that being female is something that doesn't concern you or that you supposedly don't understand erases reality because at the end of the day, none of us were asked about how we feel any more than you were.

[–]Gravel_Roads 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like you're responding to what you've "heard TRA's say" instead of responding to what I have said. I'm not saying you can't argue with trans people if they say something stupid. You're not saying anything crazy, and there's nothing wrong with you having differing opinions about this. But every time you say "I've noticed the TRA's do _" or "All you trans people think _", it starts to feel like you're talking to someone behind me or something. Please try to remember there is no "Trans People Bible". I've met like... 2 other trans people in my life, and we didn't compare "ideological notes" to make sure we all have the same message.

(In the same way, I also assume that even though I've seen some GC people say crazy things, I don't assume you hold their worst opinions, y'know?)

The issue is that amputating body parts that are perceived as shameful or wrong etc. in a society constantly sending women these messages shouldn't be the solution, even if it seems "simple".

This is... a good example of what I'm talking about? I didn't have my breasts removed because it's socially "perceived as shameful or wrong" to have them. I'm not ashamed of having had them, and I certainly didn't remove them to "send a message to other women". For me, it is bizarre that a complete stranger would see me doing something with my own body and come away thinking "They had surgery to send a message to ME!" I didn't get surgery because I think "all women should remove their breasts and hate their bodies". I was thinking "it'd be great if these things weren't in the way anymore." And now that they aren't, I don't really think about them at all. There is no greater opinion about women at all. (If anything, I love breasts on women lol. I'm bi and have mostly dated women. Breasts are great. I just didn't personally want them).

This seems like another trend in the trans (rights) community: pretending that all those women are sooo impossible to understand and that surely said misunderstanding must be validation of one's non-womanness.

once again... noo? I didn't say "women are IMPOSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND" I said "I assume women are a diverse population who probably each have a unique relationship with their own bodies". As in "different women have different experiences". If it helps, I think men also differ in their experiences from person to person. I don't see what validation has to do with any of this, I don't think anything about me sets me apart from anyone else in this regard.

I have lost count of the women who say they don't need feminism or the women who are not like other girls, and despite their indignation, I have not once been convinced by people shoving their heads in the sand regarding their physical reality because they don't want to hear it.

Once again... none of this is in response to anything I've said, tho. I think the world very much needs feminism, and more personally my life would be a lot worse without it. So. Again. I'm fine with you wanting to argue with people who say such things, but you'll have an easier time actually taking it up with the people who actually say it. If the "physical reality" you're talking about is regarding me being female, I already know lol.

The simple reality is that these were the cards we have been dealt. The fact that women deal differently with the realities of being female, and that surgeries and drugs exist, doesn't actually change the fact that they are female.

Sure, I never said it didn't. I understand that you don't personally like that some females take drugs or have surgery to alter their bodies. But some determined females will do it all the same, and some of those who do don't regret it. Some will go on to successfully live as men in society. Whether adungitit or Gravel_Roads have opinions about it, positive or negative, is going to be irrelevant, since neither of us will likely ever interact with them or impact their lives.

Remember, no-one cared how you felt about being female, nor did they care how I felt about it, nor that woman, nor that one.

What's great is, I don't have to care whether they care :D! I'm not waiting for anyone to "care about how I feel about being female". That's for me to care about. And even if no one else cares in the entire world, I'm still going to care about myself, because I'm ultimately the one I have to face in the mirror every day.

You didn't get VIP access to a character creator any more than any of us did.

I can't change the fact that I am a genetic female, XX chromosomes. Luckily I don't have to interact with my literal chromosomes every day, so it doesn't affect my dysphoria. What I did have to deal with every day was the discomfort of having breasts. But I very obviously do have the ability to remove my breasts, so i did. So while I don't have a "VIP access to a character creator", I was able to go from being a "female with breasts" to a "female without breasts". So, factually speaking, I can change some things. And, for me, they were the most disruptive ones.

I'm not trying to be cruel here, but trans people have to understand that their wishes don't actually change reality and that self hatred or cosmetic surgeries aren't something unique to them.

I don't think you're being cruel. I just feel like you're projecting what you think about trans people onto me, instead of listening to what I'm saying. I'm not functioning on "wishes". I didn't "wish" to not have breasts, I just didn't want them so I had them removed. I don't "wish" to be a man, I've just been on T long enough that people treat me like one because I look like one. I've never once claimed anything about me was unique. People get cosmetic surgery all the time. Sometimes, it looks good enough that people assume it's natural. This applies to men and women equally, nothing special about me or trans people in general.

I honestly don't intend to debate whether or not you're happy. I have met people who were made happy by all sorts of things. Hell, cults and drugs have such power over people precisely because they make them happy and provide a simple alternative to a shitty reality.

I didn't transition to escape reality. I work with homeless populations, I see a lot of reality. I deal with overdoses, I break up fights, I've performed CPR on people who later died. I've seen some darkness, and I've seen some amazing, crusty beauty. My sex/gender doesn't really play a huge part in any of this, since no one gives a shit about gender when someone's bleeding from a stab wound.

I wouldn't personally compare what I do/have done with "being in a cult" or "struggling with addiction". But it's not like there's any laws saying you can't. I just disagree. It probably comes down to what you consider pro-social. If being transgender is, to you, inherently anti-social, there's not much else I can do but accept.

The simple fact is, I don't want an "easy fix" in the form of amputations, surgeries and a lifetime of an artificially induced hormonal imbalance

I mean... you're allowed to not want me to have removed my breasts, but your preferences for my body are going to obviously take second to my preferences about my own body.

My issue isn't really with how happy you as one single individual are, my concern is with how the views I keep seeing trans people/supporters espouse keep feeding into this idea that women have an easy fix to misogyny through surgeries, medication or just plain ol' pretending and denial.

Once again, I'm fine if you want to criticize people who think transition is an easy fix to escape misogyny. I don't think transition does much to escape misogyny, any more than someone in the closet is "escaping" homophobia. Anti-woman sentiment is harmful even when it's not aimed at an individual.

But the fact that you can feel shame over your female body and euphoria over superficial modifications to your female biology is an experience only a woman can have.

Disliking being born female is, indeed, something a person would have to be born female to experience. I don't consider being female shameful, though. Women are awesome. My mom was an old bra-burning hippy who loved the female body; her art was almost entirely centered around the female figure, and I still love her art to this day.

However, if by "euphoria over superficial modifications" you mean "are happy wit how the surgery turned out", I don't think that's a woman-only experience. Most people are pretty happy when they have successful surgery that accomplishes its goal.

at the end of the day, none of us were asked about how we feel any more than you were.

I never claimed otherwise. What does people "asking me" about it have to do with anything? I'm not waiting for anyone to ask me anything. Even if no one ever "asks me", they aren't obligated to. I am a creature of agency and I am responsible for solving my own problems. You said something earlier with....

No-one ever asked me if I wanted these things, no-one ever cared how I felt about them, no one cares if I cry over them or jump from joy.

And my answer is still the same: Whether or not someone "cares" if I "cry over it" is irrelevant. I don't live my life based on what other people are doing, or asking, or caring about. I base my life off what I want to do with my life and my body.