Wavering

LesbianInExile · 2021-02-02T09:38:06+00:00

I think some of the comments here about homophobia and biphobia are more applicable to men than women and that, in some ways, it is the opposite for women. Yes, bi men are assumed to be really gay and male bisexuality isn't viewed by many people as being real - but, with women, we are assumed to be sexually fluid or at least a bit bi - A woman leaving an opposite sex marriage for a woman is assumed to be bi, a man leaving his wife for a man is assumed to be gay. Even if you have only ever dated the same sex (as I have), there is still this idea that women are sexually fluid and that you are either lying or not being open-minded - not helped by some bi women identifying as lesbians - possibly because they don't believe women can be exclusively same sex attracted so just think it's about choosing to date a woman?

I also think there are some stereotypes about and dislike of lesbians which are lesbian specific - some straight woman are okay with bi women or a woman who always dated men "but just happened to fall in love with a woman" but have a lot of negative perceptions about lesbians. I think bi women face stereotypes and negative perceptions too but they are different.

LesbianInExile · 2021-01-14T20:27:35+00:00

I've seen it in a couple of online lesbian feminist groups that I ended up in due to the whole trans thing...I joined them because I thought lesbian feminist just meant lesbians who were feminists but have obviously since realised it's something else entirely. They are mainly talking about writing it on the census form but maybe they will also do something on twitter to coincide with it. The census forms haven't been sent out yet - or at least I haven't received one.

LesbianInExile · 2020-12-08T23:54:16+00:00

If you can't be completely open in your views, are there any individual people in your life you can speak to? People who may disagree with you but who aren't engulfed in trans ideology to the extent that they will attack you or try to get your employer to sack you? Friends or family members?
Can you post something in a neutral way eg an article or news clip that actually includes both sides of the argument without saying what your views are? When people are having a go at JK Rowling nearly 100% of the time they will not actually link to what she wrote. Can you helpfully link to her essay on this issue without expressing a view? In many cases, people just need to be exposed to the arguments for seeds to be planted in their minds.
Can you contribute financially to any causes e.g. Keira Bell's case was funded by public donation. Most gc causes are funded by lots of small individual donations.
Can you write to or email people like JK Rowling who are going public to show them the public support and gratitude that they have?
Are there any consultations taking place in your country that you can respond to?

LesbianInExile · 2020-12-08T22:09:54+00:00

I think it's due back soon. You can sign up via a link of their Facebook page to a mailing list. My only concern is that it's been taken over again - from Memoree Joelle, whose views I didn't agree with on everything but who was a genuine lesbian. I'm just hoping it's been taken over by genuine lesbians (whatever their political views). I know from recent articles its not back in the hands of the queer crew but I hope it's not been taken over by the het/bi radfem "lesbian feminists", which is no better for us, despite all their posturing.

LesbianInExile · 2020-12-02T12:59:25+00:00

Political "lesbians" say being bisexual is anti-feminist because being a lesbian to them is about taking a stand against the patriarchy and being separate from men, not about a sexual orientation. In terms of sexual orientation, a lot of political lesbians are actually bisexuals but are febfems who call themselves lesbians.

LesbianInExile · 2020-12-01T23:36:00+00:00

I try to take people as I find them rather than judging them on their sexuality but lesbian feminism (which is full of bi women) has unfortunately made me doubt how much trust and respect there can be between lesbians and bi women. Of all the bisexual women in radical feminism who have started dating women, Jo Bartosch is the only one who I have ever come across who has taken this stand. They are all so well versed and passionate about why it is wrong from a man to identify as a woman but refuse to apply this to the word lesbian - and they respond to any attempts to discuss the issues with bad faith straw man arguments about "gold stars", trying to twist it to say it is about having had sex with a man rather than being attracted to men.

I know other bisexual radfems who identify as bisexual but only because they are in relationships with men and bi radfem friends who myself and other lesbians have spoken to about how problematic this is, still say that if they split up with their boyfriend they are going to "become a lesbian" so it really makes me doubt how much I can trust them and how little they really care about lesbians.

Tbh, from wide eyed enthusiasm for feminism and women when I got involved in gender critical feminism, radical feminism and, in particular, lesbian feminism has really made me doubt the decency and trust between lesbians and other women. I hope that lesbian feminism isn't representative of humanity or womanhood and that it's just that decent bisexuals give it a wide berth.

LesbianInExile · 2020-12-01T23:06:03+00:00

She's involved in radical feminism so it'll be "lesbian feminists" which includes a few actual lesbians and a lot of bisexual political lesbians. From my experience, it is the political lesbians who are always trying to recruit and persuade bi women to identify as lesbians - if they've split up with their boyfriend or have started seeing a woman, they swarm round asking when they are going to "become a lesbian". She's the only bisexual radfem dating a woman that I've come across who hasn't either enthusiastically embraced "being a lesbian" (cutting her hair short, festooning herself with t-shirts and badges describing herself as a dyke and going on about how much she hates men) or at least been bullied into it. She has described elsewhere the abuse she's received for not capitulating. As she writes in the article about the importance of using the right word to describe bi women, it would helpful if she acknowledged that the abusive "lesbians" she is talking about are bi women - or at the very least include some bi women.

LesbianInExile · 2020-11-26T23:29:35+00:00

I would occasionally use the term butch or femme to describe how someone dresses but I don't view them as identities and I don't identify as any of them.
I don't think so, not as a mystical inner sense anyway. I might pick up on some obvious cues.
I got involved in radical feminism and lesbian feminism for a while and it left me quite disillusioned and less sure about feminism tbh. I'm not a radical feminist and I don't think I would meet their standards of what a feminist is - but I do believe in equality for women and I don't think we are there yet and I would get involved in causes to tackle injustices.
1. In regular lesbian circles we need a civilised conversation about the trans issue but we also need to discuss the other groups using the term lesbian eg transbians' wives, some bi women, political lesbians - and the queering of the word lesbian to mean either anyone with any degree of attraction to women or just whatever you want it to mean, if you like the word and feel it fits you, just take it etc. 5a. I feel part of the LGB but any of the letters after that aren't sexual orientations and in some cases are contrary to the whole idea of homosexuality (ie same sex attraction). With the G and the B, I think it has been a mixed bag ie we have always had some differences but we have common ground as well and generally I think things were pretty good before the whole queer thing took off.
  5b. I think ways to support the L are defend exclusive same sex attraction and don't use the word lesbian for people who are not exclusively same-sex attracted women. 5c. I'm not sure if "Leave out the L" is a specific campaign. I think the L, G and B should work together and defend each other at this time. I support having joint LGB groups, events etc - but I think we should also be able to have our own separate groups and events.
I differentiate Trans Rights Activists from trans people generally as they are extremists. I guess my view of them as individuals would depend on who they really are - eg the middle-aged straight male incel who transitions and then gets angry and threatening when lesbians won't have sex with him is different from the teenage lesbian who got brainwashed via Tumbler - but generally I'd give them all a wide berth! 6a. Transbian = straight incel man with a lesbian fetish
A lot of it is more subtle these days but it's still there. The two worse groups seem to be a) the woke - eg harassing us to have sex with men who say their women or saying our sexual orientation isn't progressive enough and we need to unlearn our genital preferences b) lesbian feminists/political lesbians - it seems like once a heterosexual or bisexual woman identifies as a lesbian she feels free to say all the things about lesbians that she didn't feel she could say before but can present it as being just about a certain type of lesbian eg "born that way lesbians" or "gold star lesbians" - so comparing us to men, saying we are predators or incels etc It sometimes makes me worried that this is what a lot of people secretly think and the queer movement and lesbian feminism just give them an opportunity to voice it without being seen as lesbophobic
Queer = slur and now used as such a vague term that it is meaningless, if someone says they are queer, what does that even mean? Dyke = I don't like it and would never use it, Lesbo = It's an insult although okay if a fellow lesbian uses it in a jokey way, Homosexual = That used to be the term that people who didn't like gay people would use for us but now I sometimes use it for clarity, gay = one of my preferred terms, it means exclusively same sex attracted, lesbian = as previous answer, same-sex attracted = okay, TERF = a slur but I've occasionally used it in a jokey way, I think it's been quite a successful recruitment tool for radical feminists which probably isn't what the person who came up with it intended.
I prefer the rainbow flag - without the extra trans stuff on it. I'd never heard of either of these other flags until the last few years. I associate the labrys flag with lesbian feminists and political lesbians so wouldn't use it.
Based on encountering radical feminists, that we hate men and love all women. Also that we are obsessed with women's sexual history and lesbians being "gold stars" - it's always other groups I hear using that term to have a go at lesbians and it's a (deliberate?) misunderstanding of us not wanting bi and straight women co-opting our language.

LesbianInExile · 2020-11-22T22:20:18+00:00

I think the main reason that most men don't stand with women against the TRAs is that they are oblivious to the whole thing or at least aren't aware of the full extent of how crazy it has got...and for a minority of men, they just don't like women and this is a wonderful opportunity to be really misogynist and woke at the same time. But yes, there is a minority of women in the gender critical movement who just really hate men, the extremists tend to shout the loudest and this is coupled with others being a bit intimidated to take them on and a natural tendency to focus on the one or two aggressive, unpleasant comments being made about you over the rest of the reasonable people.

From the trans issue, I ended up for a while travelling down the rad fem/lesbian feminist path (because we were told we were all trans-exclusionary radical feminists, that meant we were or should be radical feminists and lesbian feminist just means lesbian and feminist, right? - or so I thought at the time). I came to realise that that wasn't the natural conclusion or the right place to be and, yes, there are lots of reasonable people who are against this madness so I agree with the previous poster about just finding reasonable organisations or groups to get involved in.

In defence of some of these angry radfems, there are some women who have experienced extreme abuse from men and some from multiple men (eg women who have been in prostitution for many years and have experienced the absolute worse of male behaviour from lots of different punters) so I do understand that level of anger and distrust. There are others I think who are just really angry about any perceived slight from men or any advantage that men have but don't have the same attitude to other injustices because they conveniently regard patriarchy as the main and only important power differential in society and anything else as just a distraction.

LesbianInExile · 2020-11-08T17:56:31+00:00

Did they specify what they were asking your opinion on eg her essay on trans issues? If not, I'd just give your view on Harry Potter etc and see what response you get. If they ask for your opinion on her views, I'd play slightly dumb, like you haven't seen it or don't know much about these issues and ask questions like "what did she say?", "I don't know much about this stuff, can you explain a bit more?" and you'll get a bit of a grasp on their views. If they are a TRA, you can back away without coming out as gc so you won't get doxxed/attacked, if they are gc, you can suss that out and they will at least know that you aren't a TRA extremist.

LesbianInExile · 2020-11-07T10:26:16+00:00

Gay = 100% homosexual. If you are attracted to both sexes, you are bisexual.

This was one of the first moves to queer and blur our language. If you are young, you may not even realise that these words had clear meanings until recent years.

If bisexual people are also gay, what word do gay people have for themselves? The clinical "homosexual"? How do gay people describe their different experiences and challenge homophobia? Gay people at best become a subset of gay people - the "monosexual" gay people (ie the most privileged gay people whose gayness is recognised) or the "genital fetishist" gay people - the oppressor group. And other (opposite sex attracted) "gays" can harass and abuse you for not wanting to have sex with members of the opposite sex but it's difficult to spell out what this abuse is because they identify as being gay too. It's happening with both the words gay and lesbian and is central to this problem.

LesbianInExile · 2020-09-12T10:40:22+00:00

I don't think being a lesbian means you can't have deep friendship bonds with men - Straight women usually have strong friendship bonds with other women, it doesn't mean they are secretly bi. Friendship is different from sexual and romantic attraction.

I think being a lesbian has actually made it more difficult for me to connect with most other women - specifically straight and bi women - because of the lesbophobia I have experienced from them and internalised myself - that I wasn't a real woman, that lesbians are creepy predators, that they don't feel comfortable being close to us. And my sexuality also means that I don't share a lot of experiences that are seen as common female experiences.

These days I have a lot more female friends than male friends (mainly other lesbians but some straight/bi women too) but I still have some male friends and my longest standing friendship is with a gay man who I have known since we were both teens (a long time ago!). I do recognise the misogyny in some gay men and try to avoid those ones but I do think we have a lot of common experiences too and on an individual level there are also straight guys that are decent people who I have shared hobbies or interests with.

LesbianInExile · 2020-09-11T22:32:31+00:00

"At first glance in these places, you’re surrounded by lesbians. It takes a while to notice that something feels off or at least it did for me. Soon I realized the problem: most of the people calling themselves are not lesbians. They write us in their image and it hurts."

I've had this twice - First from the TQs then in radical feminism (which I got interested in for a while). I was super-excited that there were so many lesbians and thought this is the answer, these are my people. Immediately, it seemed weird, the way they talked about lesbians - like setting lesbians up as these patriarchy-smashing goddesses and idealising lesbian relationships and lives to a ridiculous degree. I noticed that nearly all of them seemed to have been in long-term relationships with men and, while yes some lesbians don't come out til later in life, this was vastly disproportionate to what I'd ever seen in the LGB community. Then I noticed how clueless and dismissive they were about lesbian experiences and how much hatred they had for regular lesbians who didn't comply and didn't see and experience the world through a heterosexual or bisexual woman's perspective. And any time I or any other lesbian questioned whether a woman who was attracted to men could be a lesbian, they would all swarm in with their "sexuality is fluid" spiel, trying to twist it into being about "gold star" lesbians and sexual experience rather than their attraction for men being what makes them not a lesbian (even saying "so you're saying that if a lesbian was raped by a man she isn't a real lesbian?" when no one had said anything of the sort), saying that if we don't allow them to call themselves lesbians (like we have any power over them) we are forcing them to be in abusive relationships with men (nope, date or don't date whoever you like, just don't call yourself a lesbian if you aren't one). And some of them are blatantly lesbophobic but get away with it by identifying as lesbians.

The frustrating thing (besides encountering this shit twice when I was trying to escape from the first lot) is that they see this all when talking about transwomen. They understand the importance of boundaries, of having words to describe a particular group of people (particularly a group which is oppressed), they will say "dress however you like and do whatever you like but don't call yourself what you are not", they will say "but even if they convincingly transition they don't have the same experiences in life as someone who grew up as a girl and who is actually a woman". As soon as it is about straight and bi women identifying as lesbians, all this just goes out of the window.

LesbianInExile · 2020-09-06T15:04:06+00:00

If she's bi, she isn't gay, though. Gay = homosexual.

LesbianInExile · 2020-08-31T15:16:23+00:00

I have dated a bi woman in the past and would potentially do so again but I do think it's preferable to date another lesbian - nothing to do with past penis experience (I include lesbians who have had sex with men in the past in the group I would prefer to date), I just think we have more common with other lesbians. It's interesting that lesbians who dislike or distrust bisexuals always conclude with "and, therefore, I prefer lesbian-only spaces and would only date another lesbian" whereas bi women will talk about how they dislike and distrust lesbians and always end with "and, therefore, lesbians need to include us in their spaces and date us." Why is their response that they want to be with the people they claim hate them? And, as they recognise we are different groups, why can't we, at least sometimes, have our own space? Personally, I am happy to have joint spaces for lesbian and bi women but I think we should both be able to meet separately from the other group. The Alphabet Soup organisations in my area all have bi only groups and sessions and then general WLW/queer women groups but nothing just for lesbians - and when lesbians off their own bat (without any support or funding from the organisations) have tried to organise something just for lesbians, the first response on social media will be "is this inclusive of bi women (and transwomen)?" and they know they can't say no without being targeted.

LesbianInExile · 2020-08-31T15:02:40+00:00

Are you sure they weren't a political lesbian? I'm not saying no lesbians hate men but (as a pretty old and long time out lesbian) I've never heard a lesbian say that in real life but I've heard loads of straight and bi women complaining about what men are like and saying they hate men - I think it comes from dating them whereas I think a lot of lesbians tend to hang around with other lesbians or only associate with men who aren't misogynist a**holes (we don't have the reasons of being in love with them or being married or having kids with them to make us stick around any men who are unpleasant). The only time I have heard this kind of thing in real life was from a radical feminist who was bisexual (but always seemed to date men). Then she had sex with a woman, announced to me that she had become a lesbian and tried to bond with me over how much us lesbians hate men. I don't think she grasped that my attraction to women and my lack of attraction to men has nothing to do with my views on what men are like.

LesbianInExile · 2020-08-25T22:13:05+00:00

I think at heart - even if they pretend to be liberal and think everyone is equal - most (all?) straight/bi women think lesbians are lesser than them and are offended if someone thinks they are one. I'm reminded of leafleting at Pride or other gay events that attract a lot of straight women and we'd always be cautious when handing out leaflets in case we gave one to a straight woman because she might be offended that we thought she could be a lesbian. These were LGB events, these were ostensibly liberal, progressive, gay-friendly women turning up to show their support and yet we - from past experience -were very conscious that they would probably be offended that anyone might think they were a lesbian and even if that kind of space we thought we were the ones who should tiptoe around and make sure we didn't offend them by assuming that they were lesser like us.

I've seen it with bi women too eg getting offended when social media suggests they join a lesbian group ie why would it think I'm a gross lesbian just because I'm female, follow all the LGBT stuff and go on all the time about how sexy female celebrities are (while being married to a bloke, obviously).

LesbianInExile · 2020-08-23T13:25:28+00:00

I can relate to this, partly as something I've internalised but also just partly based on the way straight women have behaved towards me and other lesbians (ie it's real concern based on real world attitudes from and experiences with some straight women). I don't have an answer - at times I've avoided straight women and only hung out with straight men and with other LGB people and stayed in the closet around any straight women I have to deal with. At times I have tried to trust and be friends with straight women but (based on past experiences) I am cautious about being out around them and even with the ones I do trust I am still very mindful of how I behave around them (eg wouldn't compliment their appearance, wouldn't hug them unless they initiated it etc).

LesbianInExile · 2020-08-18T18:07:40+00:00

It's just a bullshit term used by bisexuals/political lesbians to say that they were only attracted to men because it was compulsory (ie patriarchy forced them to feel attracted to men) so they are totally valid as lesbians- but I have seen the phrase creep in on some lesbian sites and some actual lesbians (I think younger ones) using it without realising the background to the phrase.

If you are talking about not accepting your sexuality, trying to force yourself to be attracted to or have relationships with men despite not being attracted to them, then words like homophobia and lesbophobia (including internalised lesbophobia) work perfectly well.

Another of the problems with the term compulsory heterosexuality is that instead of talking about lesbophobia, compulsory heterosexuality basically takes the concept of homophobia and lesbophobia and makes it all about straight and bi women. Straight and bi women are the victims of compulsory heterosexuality because they are the ones who have been forced to feel attracted to men whereas women who (in their words) "chose to be lesbians at a young age" have had it easy because they haven't suffered from compulsory heterosexuality.

A lot of feminist stuff that is supposedly about lesbian rights when you look at it is actually about how tough straight and bi women have it, how they are oppressed by being attracted to men and doesn't actually address a lot of the issues lesbians face (and especially not the abuse we face from straight women and girls and how they are often the perpetrators of lesbophobia). Obviously, straight and bi women have their own problems but that it was 99% of feminism is focused on anyway. Comphet makes the supposedly lesbian part about them too and sidelines lesbians in our own oppression.

LesbianInExile · 2020-08-09T17:18:38+00:00

I think most TL users don't know about it. The old subreddit disappeared pretty quickly so unless you were really paying attention over that short space of time you wouldn't have found out about this forum. I'm guessing that everything to do with the TL subreddit disappeared so the old mods wouldn't have a way to message all of the TL users and tell them about this site? I suppose the only way to grow it is to publicise it elsewhere - although that also runs the risk of it coming to the attention of the TRAs/queerios and being targeted.

LesbianInExile · 2020-08-01T11:35:45+00:00

I find it weird when bi (or straight) women like the label lesbian and feels it makes them interesting or more appealing. I presume it only has those benefits if you are actually into guys so don't actually get a lot of the shit or internalised lesbophobia that lesbians often have to deal with. I have struggled to use the word lesbian to describe myself (using gay instead or just referring to dating or liking women - or just keeping my mouth shut - rather than saying the word lesbian) but they want the word I guess because it doesn't come with the same baggage for them.

If a woman genuinely believed she was a lesbian but later in life met a guy she fell in love with (if that does really happen?) then I can understand that she would have had a lot of the same experiences as actual lesbians growing up and maybe wouldn't relate to other bi women as much - but obviously if she is in love with and dating a man she is bisexual - just a bi woman whose experienced a different path in life.

LesbianInExile · 2020-07-26T20:51:06+00:00

I've been out for about 30 years and until the last few years had never seen anything but the traditional rainbow flag. I think all these million and one different flags are just a symptom of identity politics and all these different special genders and sexualities people identify as these days. We are included in the rainbow flag (or were traditionally) and there are versions of it which include the venus symbol so I think that is enough. I don't really like the labrys flag as it is a Lesbian Feminist thing so a) it doesn't include all lesbians (homosexual females) unless they hold specific political views and b) it's also the flag of political lesbians.

LesbianInExile · 2020-07-19T21:28:27+00:00

Martina Navratilova - I think she was the only lesbian I was aware of when I was growing up in the 80s and she was amazing then and I continue to admire her, especially the way she has dealt with the transwomen in sport issue - Really looking into it for herself, making up her own mind and being willing to express her views, regardless of the consequences.

LesbianInExile