Why I think men (gay & heterosexual) avoid the important task of standing with women against TRAs

submitted by pacmanla from self.LGBDropTheT

As a biological male, who discovered the TRAs madness some months back, I was simply appalled. I was shocked at biological males attempting to bully lesbians into being intimate with them. I didn't want to invade women spaces, but just wanted to stop by on various forums to let the women know I stood with them & supported their fight against the erasure of women. I understand what the men who are running things from the top have down to assist other men in "transitioning" into women, & this have led women to understandably be upset & furious at those men.

So, me being male & totally against the notion that men can become women & the idea that womanhood is a "feeling", go to certain forums to voice support, we see (not all women, but a significant number) a lot of misandry & tend to support from a "distance". Again, I get it, but when you see stories of men standing up to transwomen in particular & the comments are "Good, let them rape each other." Or "Men are so stupid, they'll bang anything, I'm surprised they can tell the difference." These are just a few examples of the comments in these forums. Again, I understand the anger, frustration at certain men in powerful positions pushing this trans narrative, but the vast majority of men (particularly heterosexual) don't know & if they did, DEFINITELY don't agree with the TWAW narrative.

Again, not all women are doing this, especially on this forum. But, as a male who just pops up every now & then (again, I understand the need for women spaces) & who just recently discovered this appalling issue with biological men attempting to erase women, & just want to show their support, the contempt & misandry at ALL men tends to turn a lot of guys away. They still support the women, but just do so from a "distance". I can't speak for all men, but just my opinion & observation from these forums on various sites. I will continue my support & understand it's not about me, but the fight for women spaces & understanding that men cannot become women. I hope this didn't come off as insensitive or offensive, because when you have men trying to erase the word mother & belittle women as having "front holes", I get the anger. Hopefully the sane wins out in society & this madness ends.

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[–]LesbianInExile 38 insightful - 1 fun38 insightful - 0 fun39 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the main reason that most men don't stand with women against the TRAs is that they are oblivious to the whole thing or at least aren't aware of the full extent of how crazy it has got...and for a minority of men, they just don't like women and this is a wonderful opportunity to be really misogynist and woke at the same time. But yes, there is a minority of women in the gender critical movement who just really hate men, the extremists tend to shout the loudest and this is coupled with others being a bit intimidated to take them on and a natural tendency to focus on the one or two aggressive, unpleasant comments being made about you over the rest of the reasonable people.

From the trans issue, I ended up for a while travelling down the rad fem/lesbian feminist path (because we were told we were all trans-exclusionary radical feminists, that meant we were or should be radical feminists and lesbian feminist just means lesbian and feminist, right? - or so I thought at the time). I came to realise that that wasn't the natural conclusion or the right place to be and, yes, there are lots of reasonable people who are against this madness so I agree with the previous poster about just finding reasonable organisations or groups to get involved in.

In defence of some of these angry radfems, there are some women who have experienced extreme abuse from men and some from multiple men (eg women who have been in prostitution for many years and have experienced the absolute worse of male behaviour from lots of different punters) so I do understand that level of anger and distrust. There are others I think who are just really angry about any perceived slight from men or any advantage that men have but don't have the same attitude to other injustices because they conveniently regard patriarchy as the main and only important power differential in society and anything else as just a distraction.

[–]Lesbianese⚢ 33 insightful - 1 fun33 insightful - 0 fun34 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

the comments are "Good, let them rape each other." Or "Men are so stupid, they're bang anything, I'm surprised they can tell the difference."

Sorry you had to see that kind of stuff, that's just vile. I will never be able to understand what it's like to be in the head of a woman that hates men that much. Thank you for continuing to support our cause.

I think what's happening is because the groups most focused on these issues are fringe groups, you're gonna get shitty fringe opinions. I think the only way to remedy this is to have a more mainstream group or organization that only focuses on this issue. So far we have orgs like LGB Alliance and Fair Play For Women, but they share opinions on related issues that are not directly involved which can put people off.

We need something that goes trans women and bio women are different, trans men and bio men are different, we need to treat these groups differently. This is such a tame opinion a lot of people would be less afraid to agree with it.

[–]pacmanla[S] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate your insight & pointing out this particular topic gets a lot of fringe groups. I definitely understand it's not all of the women, & even the ones who make questionable comments, I understand where their anger & frustration is coming from. I will continue to support women against men invading their spaces, because it's just wrong & you do have men in positions of power who allow these men to do this. Hopefully this does become more mainstream & we can end this madness.

[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will never be able to understand what it's like to be in the head of a woman that hates men that much.

A world of hurt and very poor ways of expressing it, is the answer for most cases, I'd guess.

[–]8bitgay 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Frankly for me it's just that I'm not brave enough. Yeah, sorry about that.

I'm not brave enough to go on popular gay spaces and condemn FtM who try to pressure us. I'm not brave enough to go on popular lesbian spaces and support lesbians who are under attack. And the narrative is quickly moving, so something that would be safe to say 5 years ago now turns you into an enemy.

On spaces like this it's fine to discuss these topics and support each other. In private spaces too, I totally support gay and lesbian friends.

On the other hand, in most spaces men will be seen in a positive light for supporting MtF people, even if they step on lesbian women by doing so. Even then, I doubt a straight guy who supports TQ+ against LGB actually does the same when he's among conservative straight men. They support a cause that isn't theirs only when it presents no risk whatsoever to them.

So I'd say that this explains at least in part why we don't see people standing up so much: people are socially rewarded for supporting TRAs, and condemned for supporting LGB.

[–]davids877Straight Male Man 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the more vocal women in the TWATW/TWAM front tend to be much more militant and many of us men don't generally agree with them except on this one issue. Places like GenderCritical seem to be more appropriate for the discussions than here, but as you've seen they're not generally male friendly.

Like so many things it's tough to be moderate on issues, I, like you, keep my comments to myself most of the time except those rare times when it makes sense.

I think the other reason men aren't supporting biology is they're being indoctrinated by the woke cult, well, if you support LGB then you must support T and aren't fully understanding that the T narrative/TRAs are attempting erasure of women/sex rather than simply 'transwomen/transmen just want to be left alone'.

[–]latuspodSuper Straight 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I really agree. I am not saying that misandry is more common than misogyny, but misandry is a lot more acceptable to today's society. A lot of it comes in the form of a "you go girl" attitude. But it is quite acceptable in most circumstances to imply that men are dumber than women, or inferior somehow because of "tiny chromasomes". Whereas a man can not even state biological truths without being called sexist.

[–]reluctant_commenter 17 insightful - 4 fun17 insightful - 3 fun18 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Further to your point-- I had a radfem on here call me a "handmaiden" because I implied that misandry even existed. Lol. I'm not even allowed to talk about a concept without being labeled a misogynistic insult, no thanks.

[–]latuspodSuper Straight 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's weird. And that type of close mindedness just prevents any sort of progressive dialogue that might lead to some actual progress.

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Totally agree.

[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with a lot of what you said. I went down this rabbithole because, when I was working at a pop-up bar, I offered the contact information of the owner because some lesbian women I was acquainted with were complaining about a lack of spaces for lesbians in the city. They declined and shied away from the reasons why, so I started looking into lesbian only spaces online and found r/truelesbians. That's where I started seeing the complaints lesbians had about TRAs and started to see the parallels with my own experiences as a gay man. Up until that point, I thought that lesbians as a whole were on board with what was being spewed because many of them were in academic positions spewing it, were online reinforcing it, and seemed to generally go along with it.

It took breaking a boundary to find out what was really being felt.

That being said, I don't think the same is being done when it comes to what is directed at gay men. What "transmen" do is nothing short of what I, and other gay men, have experienced from women on the whole. The harassment for saying no, the sexual misconduct/assault, trying to get into explicitly sexual male-only spaces... this is just run of the mill behaviour I've experienced in schools, workplaces, roommate situations, and clubs.

I work in a men's only space (bathhouse) and we experienced a harassment campaign for months because a pre-everything FtM had her boyfriend try and see if we would let her in. We said no and we proceeded to receive threatening phone calls. Before COVID hit, we had a transman come in to lecture us on why it's discrimination not to let FtMs in, both myself and the other gay employee (the rest are bi, safe for the owner) brought up the fact that gay men cannot enthusiastically consent to vulva and that many of us have long histories of being sexual violence from women in our lives and don't want to relive them in one of the few spaces that prioritizes us. This has been no different from the times we have received death threats and harassment from opposite sex couples and women for not letting women without dysphoria into the space. I even had one bisexual women try and lecture me on how she "knew all about being gay" to which I told her she clearly didn't since she would understand that gay men don't want to see her naked or interact with her pussy unless under duress and to fuck off. All of this happened within 6 months of working there.

In the spaces I've been in online, I've seen the same comments you've seen. It got to the point where I decided to only interact with other gay men and a few lesbians. I saw them try and dismiss the rape of a gay, autistic man by an FtM and harass him into silence. I experienced harassment for saying that gay men, too, can be and are correctively raped.

[–]reluctant_commenter 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Again, I get it, but when you see stories of men standing up to transwomen in particular & the comments are "Good, let them rape each other." Or "Men are so stupid, they'll bang anything, I'm surprised they can tell the difference." These are just a few examples of the comments in these forums.

I am against these types of comments as well, and quite frankly, this is why I have stuck to LGB groups that are against the T, as opposed to feminist groups that are against the T, even though I have feminist views. Not saying they are all like that, all the time... but there is a strong undercurrent, and I'm not here for it.

I appreciate your empathy and understanding of why people make these comments, though. Out of all the abusive people who've harmed me in my life, men make up a clear majority, and there is a feeling of rage and helplessness that's natural and just that comes from having this kind of history.

I hope we, as a community, will step up to combat violent and degrading comments of any sort-- be it against men, bisexuals, and yes, even trans people. We are all human beings, and if we stoop to the level of TRAs and dehumanize people, then we are really no better than them in the long run.

[–]HelloMomo 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

this is why I have stuck to LGB groups that are against the T, as opposed to feminist groups that are against the T, even though I have feminist views. Not saying they are all like that, all the time... but there is a strong undercurrent, and I'm not here for it.

Ditto. I'm into the ideas of radical feminism, but not the attitudes that I find so often on those groups.

[–]pacmanla[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for your response & feedback. Yes, you are right about respecting each other & not stooping to certain levels

[–]Eurowoman24 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Appreciate your support! to be honest sometimes I feel angry. Not at men individually but at how much better society treats men. I'm completely gender critical and have been watching silently as we're being told we have front holes, called menstruators and cervix havers, non-men, womxn and beautiful transwomen get to be women while it's not the same for men. I've compared TRA reactions and see that they always react more violently when a women speaks up. It sucks but I don't want to be doxxed and threatened with rape or murder.

Even in the way they treat lesbians vs gay men, the misogyny is apparent. I wonder when this will die down.

[–]Dravidian 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm of the belief that if you see an injustice or oppression and you're a good person you'll stand up for the oppressed people even if the individuals sometimes say unsavory things. People are human, and they're pretty dumb, but a group of people shouldn't be left to suffer because some of the individuals run their mouths, even if it's against you.

How are we supposed to be feeling when we open a saidit thread that says "yeah you are being dicked over but I won't help cause some of you are mean. If nobody helps it's your own fault and I felt strongly enough about it to come tell it and make sure you knew" wow

[–]pacmanla[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry if the post offended you, never meant for it to be taken that way. I stated numerous times throughout the post, that I understand women's anger & frustration at men in power supporting & pushing this nonsense into law. I also said that myself & men like me, will continue to support women against men invading their spaces, because it's appalling & needs to stop. I was just giving my opinion as to why you don't see more men in the open supporting this crucial issue. Of course not all women are doing this & this forum is a great example of that.

[–]just_lesbian_things 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

go to certain forums to voice support

Why? I rather you didn't. It's annoying and disruptive to be on those forums and constantly see "I'm a MAN and I'm on YOUR SIDE!!"/"I have a DICK and I AGREE WITH YOU!!" posts from men with nothing else to add. Most of it comes across as compliment hunting and preaching to the choir because a bunch of women will undoubtedly show up and congratulate the man.

If it matters to you, stay on your current forum and voice support. We've seen that men take less heat in general than women do for the same opinion. You should reach out to the het men who don't know and help them help themselves, because you're certainly not telling the women on these forums anything they don't already know.

Again, I get it, but when you see stories of men standing up to transwomen in particular & the comments are "Good, let them rape each other." Or "Men are so stupid, they'll bang anything, I'm surprised they can tell the difference."

I haven't said the former, but I've said the latter in the context of male trans people claiming that straight men love them and would definitely have sex with them. I'm not a straight man, nor do I have sex with straight men, so I have less authority on this matter and I would defer to the male trans person who has presumably at least fucked a man. My conclusion would be that "straight men fuck men becauss they can't tell it's a man", as that is the most reasonable explanation for a demographic that claims to only be attracted to women while also fucking men. If you don't think that's an accurate conclusion, feel free to contest next time the male trans person shows up claiming to have fucked lots of straight men. Lesbians dispute these claims (any woman who knowingly and consensually fucks a man is bi or het) you should too.

[–]pacmanla[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Sorry if men are going to those forums to do that. I'm not "compliment hunting", but just want to add that I agree that this nonsense needs to stop. I don't know about women congratulating the man, but could it be that most men (particularly heterosexual) don't know about this issue & the women are just grateful that their realizing this matter? Don't know, just asking. Thanks for the feedback.

[–]eddyelric 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think the reason why women are very skeptical of men being in their spaces because they can't be honest about their issues. You have to start walking on eggshells to be nice and never make generalizations and I see that as they type of censorship attitude that paved the way for TRAs to walk right in.

[–]SeahorseLTHarold, they're lesbians! 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True. Sometimes you're just frustrated. Take that guy from Amnesty Ireland. Some might say, "man, why are men such assholes (to us)?" and then you'd have to add, "but of course, I don't mean all men. Actually, I'm sorry that this might be offensive to the men reading this so please know I don't mean you blabla" and then just end up wasting everyone's time.

[–]SeahorseLTHarold, they're lesbians! 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, but they point is that you shouldn't be grateful all the time just because someone is acting according to their integrity, ideals and logic. A sense of relief like, "oh, at least this man is supporting us! Wow!" is actually just another symptom of it all.

I'm grateful especially to those people that are putting their face, name and often career out there to help shine a light on this. So yeah, I might not agree with all of them, but I am grateful that a JKR, a Abigail Shrier, a Gad Saad or a Graham Lineha, is speaking up. Because they have been dealing with the consequences of their actions in a way that would make most of us back off. But discussion in a forum, where a man say, "I think this is going too far, too" - well, good for you, buddy, and welcome aboard, but it's nothing to write home about, you know?

[–]pacmanla[S] 0 insightful - 1 fun0 insightful - 0 fun1 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agree, & it's not about me as a man thinking it's something to write home about when a man do support the cause against this issue. I was just giving my opinion & answering certain posts about why more men don't support the fight against TRAs against women. I've seen posts asking about this on here & other sites about this issue. Again, thanks for the insight.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Your attitude....ooof

[–]just_lesbian_things 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

DM me your address so I can mail you all the fucks I give.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Your anger is ugly. Just in case you didn't know or "care."

[–]just_lesbian_things 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Your sensitivity is cute.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You are nowhere near as strong as you think you are

[–]just_lesbian_things 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

I'm touched you think I'm strong at all.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Don't worry, I don't. I was referrencing what I picked up from your posting energy.

[–]just_lesbian_things 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

what I picked up from your posting energy

I wouldn't bother with that. You're stupid as fuck lmao.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Why are you even here?

[–]QueenBread 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Reminds me of a tv show I once saw. Eventually there was this men vs women battle. Women had some allies, including a feminine gay man. Eventually tho that man betrays the women. One of the ladies asks him overdramatically "why???? Why did you do that?? They oppress you as well!!" and he answers "Because..... I am a man too!".

That was pretty spot on.

[–]ThrowMeAway2879 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. I think r/GenderCritical kept me from truly peaking for a while. Because even though I was questioning the whole TRA-nonsense since about 2015, anytime I went to research, I was pointed to r/GC. And reading those threads there... it always repelled me and made me question whether I really wanted to be associated with that side of the debate.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You are right that most men don't know about this issue and that is also part of where the frustration lies. Most men have absolutely no incentive to find out how women are doing. They honestly do not give a fuck.

Most men have no clue of the amount of sexual harassment a woman experiences every day of her life starting at age 12 or younger and a lot of them think women are just scared because of scary stories on the news. It's only when you sit one down with 5 women around him and all tell their stories that they suddenly become pale as paper and suddenly get why we take a taxi for 10 minute walk at night or why none of us goes running after dark.

Now with the GC issues, women sports is a good example. Politicians and organisations and companies are mostly run by men. None of them asked women, none of them, if women thought it would be ok for transwoman to compete in championships. No decent research was done. Men asked lgbtq organisations run by men if transwoman (more men) should be in womens sports. And when this hits the news, it's mostly woman who speak up and a lot of men that stay quiet.

There are a lot more examples like this, but if you really understand what is happening here, it should be absolutely no surprise as to why women are so pissed off at men in general.

If anything 2020 just showed those who pay attention, how little the average man cares about women and how disposable our safeties and rights are.

On top of that the most vocal trans rights activists seem to be bearded men and transbians to the point its just became a meme.

It's hard for a lot of women to not take it personally. I struggle sometimes with it too to be quite honest.

I'm sorry you feel turned off by some of the forums because of this, but i hope you understand where its all coming from. But i understand where you are coming from aswel because sometimes some radfems really turn me off from the GC for a moment too on occasion.

[–]fuckupaddamsBisexual Terve 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most men have absolutely no incentive to find out how women are doing. They honestly do not give a fuck.

And yet if I say that men overwhelmingly do not give a fuck about us, we get posts like OP's.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Again, I get it, but when you see stories of men standing up to transwomen in particular & the comments are "Good, let them rape each other." Or "Men are so stupid, they'll bang anything, I'm surprised they can tell the difference."

Yeah, blanket statements like this only ever serve as an outlet for the person making them. It's a damn pity, because in the end we believe a lot of the same things but we often just can't get over our different experiences and see eye to eye. Vitriol can come from any place at all, and I think in these cases it stems from having bad experiences with men (likely extremely bad). It can also just be teenagers saying stupid shit as they've always been want to do, though.

Sorry you had to have that impression. Best to leave people like that to their own devices. If they're in their own space then they're not attacking anyone.

[–]dilsencySame-sex community 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think it helps to understand that people vent about the male class of people, and not you (or me) as a male individual personally.

[–]latuspodSuper Straight 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There is no male class of people.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How so?

[–]latuspodSuper Straight 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is no male class that sets out to oppress all women. That's a really biased view and reading of society. And comes from a really privileged point of view, mainly western middle to upper class. We need to move beyond the childish Marxist view of oppressor and oppressed if we want to actually be constructive and progressive.

[–]divingrightintowork 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you for waking up a bit and starting to see what's going on - I'm glad to have you.

[–]pacmanla[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm flattered, but I try not to overstep, seeing that this isn't my space. I post & comment every now & then to show my support, but try not to overstep boundaries.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Aw - well if you're interested in spaces that welcome folks, there's a gcdebatesqt discord that has some overlap topically with here - it's got a diverse crew and we always welcome more. But even not retweeting and promoting stuff, and soft push back against absurd claims like how there's an epidemic of trans murders is good.

[–]HelloMomo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Just curious: Are straight men getting pressured to date trans women too? How is that playing out?

[–]pacmanla[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Honestly, as a heterosexual male, the problem imo, are these men who have issues with their sexualities & lying about being heterosexual. These men are attracted & have a fetish for men who "appear" as women, but lie to themselves that they're "straight".

As far as transwomen pressuring heterosexual males into dating or being intimate with them, imo, no. You have some who try to shame men, but men tend to laugh at them, or just ignore them. It's nowhere near as bad as transwomen bullying lesbians at this point.

[–]HelloMomo 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You have some who try to shame men, but men tend to laugh at them, or just ignore them.

I've long hoped that straight men might someday save us all. Straight men are the other demographic who is exclusively into females, but are vastly more numerous than lesbians, and thus harder to steamroll.

[–]SeahorseLTHarold, they're lesbians! 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't count on anyone to save you. If they join in, good. If not, there still must be a way to get the word out. FtMs are pressuring gay men, MtFs are pressuring lesbians. People think bisexuals should just accept everything because they think bi = doesn't get to have a personal choice. It's ugly out there, but we can't wait for a group of people to step in that aren't really affected much.

[–]just_lesbian_things 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

these men who have issues with their sexualities & lying about being heterosexual. These men are attracted & have a fetish for men who "appear" as women, but lie to themselves that they're "straight".

You should confront and correct those men. Most lesbians confronted and corrected bihet women like that (until we got banned for it).

[–]millicentfawcett 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I never signed up to the original r/GC subreddit because I found it a bit hardcore despite broadly agreeing with a fair bit that was posted there. I struggle a bit with the radfem identity (sorry that word again!) and have questioned whether it really fits who I am. I suppose I use it because I'm part of a real life radfem group and nobody in the group resembles rabid man haters - we are mostly straight, married/partnered women with a smattering of lesbian couples and singles. A couple of women are bisexual. Many of us are mothers which I think is one of the main bonding factors.

I lean towards radfem politics because I believe that oppression of women does stem from our different biology to men and societies reaction to that. I tend to part ways with it at separatist/world without men stuff. I have plenty of issues with men as a class but individually there's many I'm very fond of. I also think fathers are important and I wouldn't have wanted to raise my (male) children without their father, although I recognise not everyone has that choice. A lot of radfems would consider this to be a bit of a conservative position which it perhaps is but it's how I feel based on my own life experience.

Anyway TLDR, I use radfem as shorthand for my closest beliefs because I'm definitely not libfem but it's still not a perfect fit.

I think OP if you were to mix with the many women trying to tackle this in real life as opposed to just online you'd just find a bunch of rather ordinary women.

[–]SeahorseLTHarold, they're lesbians! 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not to be mean or anything but isn't the term radical feminism? Why is everyone expecting it to be something that doesn't cause an uproar? If it's not, it wouldn't be radical, would it? The problem I have is that a lot of people are calling themselves radfems when they are not, and I do not get why that is. Why would you want to use a label you wouldn't feel comfortable with because it's maybe too radical after all? That's the whole point. You can still be critical of this gender ideology and critical of a lot of things, but I don't think saying biology is real and needs to be defended is a radical stance. It's fairly benign and harmless.

I'm a lesbian, not a rad fem. But if these radfems want to think and talk about female separatism, they absolutely should! It's a really radical idea, so more power to them. I realize I am not as radical in my ideas, or my feminism, so I do not call myself such. And I would think that especially seeing how the LGB is being whittled down by "queer" people - often just straight people with a twist - and everybody and anybody identifying into a group because it sounds cool, that we would not make the same mistake and just realize that radical feminism is, by definition, radical and as such will not feel comfortable or even be remotely the right fit for the vast majority of women. There is no need to "apologize" for the radical aspects - "I know many radfems, but they are not these radical ones saying females could live without males!" - why do you feel the need to classify it into "good radical feminism" and "bad radical feminism" and only the takes that aren't radical at all get a good badge?

This reminds me a lot of "I'm NOT like those other girls, see? I'm cool, I don't have these silly/radical/mean thoughts".

You do not have to be radical to be a feminist. I posit you have to be female, but that's another story. And the rad fems? Well, they are an interesting bunch and some of them are really insufferable. It's their right, too.

It shouldn't become a label where people flee into just because they're also gender critical or something like that - or because they're afraid that "liberal feminism" makes people look like stupid "handmaidens". You say you have "conservative" views - I'd just call them views that aren't very radical. If you find these views best describe your life experience, that's great. There's nothing wrong with liking a (male) father around children while growing up, and you know it. Yet you keep trying to strike a balance there where there isn't a need to. I think a lot of it has to do with shame, because "conservative" = bad, and if you're one way, you're a "prude", or not political enough. Seriously though: it's your life. So live it like you want to, 'cause it's not a competition about your personal politics.

[–]millicentfawcett 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You seem to use the 'radical' in rad fem in the dictionary sense of extreme ideology. My understanding is that that the radical part of rad fem stems from the term root - as in the root of female oppression is our biology and nothing to do with extreme or fringe thinking. That's why I say it's the closest fit for my politics and it's the definition my rad fem group is constructed from.

I don't mind that other women want to discuss or focus on separatist ideas. It's just not my thing and I don't get much of a sense of it being a prominent part of UK based rad fem politics although it's quite a mainstream view amongst men (and other women) that it is, hence my reply to the OP. Although if the OP isn't from the UK it's maybe a useless reply and I'm probably shortsightedly being too UK centric.

I've noticed cultural differences between UK and US rad fem politics. I think maybe a lot of US based women approach it from different interpretations to mine which is why as a label it works okay for me in a real life setting but less so online where there doesn't seem to be universal agreement on what radical feminism is or should be.

I've considered whether material feminist would be a better term because until the recent spate of identity politics the left wing here was very much focused on class based politics which is more inline with my thinking and the left wing activism of my youth. I'm not very keen on the term gender critical feminist because it feels a bit too narrow a definition for me to want to use it regularly.

[–]endless_assfluff 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for asking this! I feel like this is something we don't talk about enough, because I see some commenters on this sub repeatedly bashing radfems as angry---we're on your side, my dudes---and wanted to look into that more.

So I think telling radical feminists not to be misandrist is the wrong battle to fight. In this case, if the posters above truly meant to say "Good, let [all men, every man in existence, every single one] rape each other" rather than "Good, let [the subset of men who happen to be rapists] rape each other," for example, that's a weak statement and they shouldn't have said that.

That being said, I'm white, and when my friends say "white people suck," my instinct isn't to lecture them about reverse racism. It's to say "yeah, they do," and let them vent. Other people have identified these kinds of statements as emotional responses to stuff the utterer shouldn't have had to deal with in the first place. I agree. It's not my place to tell my friends how they're allowed to respond to systemic racism. The real issue we're both up against isn't a person but a false belief system: end racial stereotyping and all the other baggage that comes with it, and "reverse racism" ends as well. Likewise, here, if we work together to end misogyny, misandry should die with it.

But instead, I often see radical feminists being blamed for things they have no control over. If I said that 90% of sexual-assault perpetrators are men, would you be angrier at me for being misandrist, or at the asshole rapists for making everyone else look bad? (Not you in particular. Anyone reading this.) Would you feel compelled to say men get sexually assaulted too/women can be the perps too, or would you say, yeah, we shouldn't let those jerks get away with that? Would you assume I'm erroneously using statistics to argue in favor of biological determinism, or assume that I understand statistics perfectly well and just want to strategize about preventing sexual assault because I'm on Team People-Should-Not-Be-Assaulted-Regardless-Of-Gender? If a woman is saying questionable things because she's a victim of assault, would you be angrier at the woman, or the man who terrorized her so thoroughly that she's now scared of all men? You know? I mean, I don't know what your answers would be, but these are all questions I asked myself at some point. I changed my behavior when I didn't like my answers.

My point is, it's true that saying things that could be construed as generalizations isn't productive, and neither is telling radfems to police their language in order to cater to men. You're right that men might stay away from these spaces because they're offended. What I'm disagreeing on is the culpability: I think radfems could do everything and say everything perfectly and people would still hate on them because the label "radical feminist" carries negative connotations. The bad apples are an excuse to justify that belief. As long as people keep trying to paint radfems as the problem, rather than misogyny, homophobia, or lies, there's going to be unnecessary infighting.

(For the sake of disclosure, I'm not particularly offended by this post, since I've done a crapton of epistemological soul-searching to ensure my beliefs in this area are well-founded and don't stem from hatred. You also seem reasonable and I thought this was a discussion worth having. I hope I haven't come off as combative here and I apologize if I have.)

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm white too and when people say, "white prople suck," I cut them out of my life the same way I cut anyone who says "black people suck." Racism as a form of venting is just racism.

[–]latuspodSuper Straight 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This. Casual racism or sexism isnt ok just because it's against what we've arbitrarily labeled as the oppressor.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the support. I feel sad even having to say that though. It's upsetting how easily people are ok with some forms of racism while not ok with others. It's part of the woke moviment and it's one of the main reasons we are in the situation we are in currently. Racism, bigotry and sexism have no place in equality. The second you start allowing any form of it there will be problems.

[–]pacmanla[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

(For the sake of disclosure, I'm not particularly offended by this post, since I've done a crapton of epistemological soul-searching to ensure my beliefs in this area are well-founded and don't stem from hatred. You also seem reasonable and I thought this was a discussion worth having. I hope I haven't come off as combative here and I apologize if I have.)

Thank you for your response, & of course you don't come off as combative. When it comes to this issue, women have EVERY RIGHT to be upset & hurt over this nonsense. Being a male, I will continue to support women & their spaces from men looking to imitate & try to "become" them (nonsense). And trust me, when you have men in these positions of control forcing other men (notably heterosexual) to become intimate with men (TRA) you will see men realize this affects them as well. And those men who felt the need to smirk at feminists & say things like "Good, that's what those feminists get", will have shown their idiocy.

[–]BritishbulldogUndecided if Radfem or just TERF 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks- it’s quite useful to have a man’s perspective on this issue, because like it or not- men have the power- so for feminists to get anything done, we need make support. Oh, the irony.

Imo the forums have a lot of radical feminists on them, some of whom are misandrists. Sorry you’ve had to see some of the crap they post. I will also say not all radfems are misandrists- nowadays not believing men can be women and sex work is empowering is enough to class you as a radical feminist.

For the guys who would maybe want to support us- I’d look at official campaigns (Fair Play for Women, ReSisters, Standing for Women)- there will be more sense there. And men spreading word would help hugely.

I just want to also say I really appreciate your support.

[–]SeahorseLTHarold, they're lesbians! 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

nowadays not believing men can be women and sex work is empowering is enough to class you as a radical feminist.

And that is the problem. There is nothing radical about that, and it doesn't make you a radical feminist if you believe in that. I do, and I'm not one. It's this over-simplification of groups why we need the LGB to finally drop the T after all.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I have common ground with radfems on the TRA topic but besides that I just can't support them. They have a completely one-sided view of the whole issue. The trans stuff is boiled down to MtF's invade women's spaces because males have no boundaries, where FtM's who do the same thing are ignored or they insist it never happens.

Again, I understand the anger, frustration at certain men in powerful positions pushing this trans narrative

This can excuse the men-bashing it to a degree but it's taken way too far on places like GC and comes across as a bit pathetic.

I agree with radfems on some issues, but at the end of the day, they're still feminists. They still love to play the victim just as much as the TRA's and ignore/deny issues that don't affect them.

[–]PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, I used to be neutral with radfems until I saw comments like these:

Honestly, I think refusing to have children at all is the way to go. You’re either birthing another oppressor which, no matter how well you raise him, is most likely going to be another women’s nightmare. (This will also help in the long run because I don’t see patriarchy lessening without the number of men decreasing.) Or you’re bringing another girl into the world who will be victimized by patriarchy. I think adopting a daughter is what I would suggest to radfems who want to be mothers.

And:

[...] biological differences between men and women, not only in terms of women being the ones to give birth but also men having naturally predatory sexual instincts that can't be deconstructed away by society as well as a more dominating and aggressive temperament.

I'm starting to see radfems to be just as bad as TRAs, but instead of being misogynistic, they are misandristic and think it's OK.

I have a son, so in their eyes, I'm "birthing another opressor". That's fucked up.

Edit: Also, they're judgemental of other women which is ironic. They're not a fan of bisexual women because we're "heteronormative". They also shame women who wear makeup or shave their legs. Like, who gives a crap about that? There's more important things to focus on. I didn't care back then if the women I liked put on or didn't put on makeup. If she likes it then cool, if not, fine.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The worst take I ever saw on a radfem space was: "The only reason why less women die from suicide than men is because women stop to think more about how it will affect others, whereas men are naturally more selfish" which I just found disgusting.

They're ultimately cut from the same cloths as TRA's. Insecure groups of people who make themselves feel better by painting everyone else as an oppressor and them the innocent victims.

[–]PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is really fucking gross and messed up! There are MANY thoughtful men out there as there are women.

Also...suicide is a difficult thing. Some people went through some tough shit and feel like they have NOBODY at all. I used to be in a dark place and wish I could die everyday living with my (abusive) parents when I was kid-teen years. I didn't stop myself because "Oh, look at who it would affect" it's more like I was scared of the unknown and (stupidly thought) if I killed myself, my parents would be annoyed at how useless I am and what I left behind is an annoyance for them to have to clean up and yeah...anyways...

Yep radfems are on the other side of the same coin as TRAs.

I'm getting kinda tired in general of the battle of "who's the most oppressed". I fit in many "minority" boxes, but I am getting tired of the ones who cry and scream about not getting their way without even trying to do better or the ones who are so "oppressed" but then start to sound like supremist or "purist" that we're "better/more superior" than the "majority" uh...But lol that's an entirely different topic heh.

[–]SeahorseLTHarold, they're lesbians! 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Where do people insist it never happens? I see a lot of beef with the FtMs which they might even see as hateful, because you have some that seem to double down to make away with sex-based rights and the like, see ACLU lawyers. People are not blindly praising them just because they are female - not from what I've seen.

Of course, though, it will be an issue that most women won't pay attention to - because it just has nothing to do with their lives. Straight feminists, for instance, can be quite against lesbians at times. I am not surprised that gay men are even further away from their attention. That's why you need to stand up for yourself, and as LGB, I think. Because I know that many of these heterosexual women just won't get it, and I know that because I've had a lot of shit from them over the years, too. I have stopped expecting to go along with lots of groups just because there's alignment in a few of our "causes". That's why I am glad about any LGB space created. Being homosexual is a different life experience and while I will never know what it's like as a gay man, I know that same-sex attraction is something that you and I share, and which has definitely shaped us.

[–]MyLongestJourney 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Why I think men (gay & heterosexual) avoid the important task of standing with women against TRAs"

Simple.They weren't hurt as much as women by TRA activism (yet anyway). It is just human nature. You usually do not react unless you are disturbed.

[–]lmaonope333 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I generally dont trust men who complain about misandry, I've come to realize that 99 percent of men don't respect women or care about our safety, and if they seem like they care they're usually pretending. I don't wish harm upon men, I just dont think they're relevant to my life, and wish that they'd leave me alone. The few male friends that I do care about, proved their trustworthiness not by loudly proclaiming themselves as feminists, nor by complaining about misandry, but by simply being there for me and listening to my perspective. Based on the rest of your post it seems like your heart is in the right place, and if you do in fact care about female rights, I thank you for your support, however to me and many women, men complaining about misandry is a huge red flag

[–]pacmanla[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Appreciate your response & honesty. Hopefully I hope the post didn't come across as me "complaining" about misandry. Just giving my observation on why some men who recently discover what the TRAs are trying to do, & go down certain rabbit holes & see certain comments, don't voice their support so loudly & do so from a distance. Thanks for the response.