all 87 comments

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 69 insightful - 28 fun69 insightful - 27 fun70 insightful - 28 fun -  (3 children)

This is Exhibit A in why trans women are not representative of women, and specifically why transbians are not representative of lesbians, and why they should never be considered to speak on our behalf. Our issues are not their issues and their issues are not our issues.

This is what you get when you replace every lesbian on a board for an LGBT org with a transbian. This is what you get when you give a committee position on women’s issues to a trans woman. And this is what happens when you hire trans women and check the female box on your EEO-1 forms.

Sorry we’re such uncooperative lesbian bitches, but we have no idea what you’re on about mate but it’s not our problem, and we can’t solve it for you.

But since it seems like no one ever taught you the rules of dating, the revised Lesbian edition:

  • Rule 1 of dating: Be attractive.

  • Rule 2 of dating: Don’t be unattractive.

  • Bonus Rule 3 for lesbian dating: males are never attractive.

  • Bonus Rule 4 for lesbian dating: males are always unattractive.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 40 insightful - 23 fun40 insightful - 22 fun41 insightful - 23 fun -  (1 child)

Rule number 1: Have a real pussy.

Rule number 2: Don't have a dick

[–]Rosefield 7 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

-angry transbian noises-

NOT UwU

[–]uroborosjohnson 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

They are more representative of incels than they are of women.

[–]julesburm1891 68 insightful - 24 fun68 insightful - 23 fun69 insightful - 24 fun -  (5 children)

Sir, these women aren’t making a move or complimenting you because they are not interested in you. You’re a man and they’re lesbians. It will never happen. Take a hint and bugger off.

[–]denverkrisMy pronouns are Vodka?/Yes!/please 38 insightful - 14 fun38 insightful - 13 fun39 insightful - 14 fun -  (3 children)

because they are not interested in you

and as is typical for this type of man, this never even occurs to him.

[–]julesburm1891 23 insightful - 4 fun23 insightful - 3 fun24 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

I’m trying to fathom how self-absorbed and douchey a person would have to be to not pick up on basic social cues of people not being interested. Obviously, he’s barking up the wrong tree, but the rest of this guy’s personality is clearly abysmal.

[–]Rosefield 6 insightful - 7 fun6 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Am I so out of touch??

No, it's the lesbians who are wrong!

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 14 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Or, "she's just not that into you... [at all]"

[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 58 insightful - 21 fun58 insightful - 20 fun59 insightful - 21 fun -  (4 children)

The way I envision a healthy relationship is an equal-give equal-take lesbian affair whereas both lesbians start conversations

You can tell a dude wrote it because he used lesbians as a noun instead of women.

[–]Constantine 52 insightful - 16 fun52 insightful - 15 fun53 insightful - 16 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, the number of times the word “lesbian” appeared in this post is telling in and of itself. Screamed of LARPing.

Also, he makes it very obvious that the reason he transitioned is to “escape” how awful dating is for men. How are they not incels again?

[–]blackrainbow 15 insightful - 11 fun15 insightful - 10 fun16 insightful - 11 fun -  (0 children)

Poor loser, he thought lesbians work like in porn

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Painfully true. Shades of Ted Cruz for Human President though lol (“I have seen many people and Ted Cruz is one of them”).

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well they all love using "woman" as an adjective now which is actually driving me insane when trying to read the news.

[–]ChodeSandwichtender and moist 49 insightful - 4 fun49 insightful - 3 fun50 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I'm tired of reading essays about how dating is just so hard for (men, women, trans, insert category here) as if they're the only ones having a bad time. Dating sucks for everybody! Victim complexes are unattractive to anyone that isn't a predator!

[–]bastetkat 37 insightful - 23 fun37 insightful - 22 fun38 insightful - 23 fun -  (3 children)

I haven’t received a compliment in over 7 months over chat.

Oh no! Not complimenting an AGP is the worst crime a lesbian could ever commit!

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 22 insightful - 20 fun22 insightful - 19 fun23 insightful - 20 fun -  (2 children)

I bet he received some compliments, like "you aren't the ugliest thing I've seen".

[–]PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑 16 insightful - 12 fun16 insightful - 11 fun17 insightful - 12 fun -  (0 children)

Lmfao yesss

He probably wants super specific comments like "Oh wow, how BRAVE you are for coming out TRANS!!!" and "OH JEE, you are MORE feminine than any woman lesbian I have ever seen. My lesbian self can't handle this amount of lesbianism in the room! I have to get my lesbians friends to come see your lesbian self so we can make lesbian love!!!"

.....Barf.

I'm sorry you have to deal with disgusting creepy men claiming to be lesbians...

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 13 insightful - 8 fun13 insightful - 7 fun14 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

Awww, you can be so cruel LMAO

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 32 insightful - 17 fun32 insightful - 16 fun33 insightful - 17 fun -  (1 child)

Wait, lesbians refusing to date men is heteronormative now? 🤡🌍

Should have seen this coming. I remember seeing a video on .Mic where this gay man claimed that gay men having spaces for gay and bisexual men only is "heteronormative" because women aren’t allowed in those spaces. This was in 2016. A man whinging on Reddit about lesbians being heteronormative for not dating him shouldn’t surprise me.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 14 insightful - 15 fun14 insightful - 14 fun15 insightful - 15 fun -  (0 children)

You don't understand! Non-hetenormative is heterosexual dating, while lesbian dating is heteronormative! Why it so hard to understand? :D

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 32 insightful - 9 fun32 insightful - 8 fun33 insightful - 9 fun -  (6 children)

This man is so lazy - "I want women who don't want me to do all stuff for me".

[–]bastetkat 39 insightful - 15 fun39 insightful - 14 fun40 insightful - 15 fun -  (1 child)

This man really thought r/actuallesbians was an accurate representation of the lesbian community, and expected to receive a ton of compliments from lesbians irl.

[–]Rosefield 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah LOL real life isn't a transbian internet echo chamber. Their handmaidens make a billion comments on /Al claiming that lesbians are super duper attracted to them and yet reality is always kicking these men in the blue bollocks.

[–]ChodeSandwichtender and moist 22 insightful - 13 fun22 insightful - 12 fun23 insightful - 13 fun -  (3 children)

Let's be real, that's probably half the reason he transitioned. Mom told him to get a job and he decided to try reclassing into a sugar baby or housewife instead. 🤮

[–]FrostyNugsI'm allergic to nuts 16 insightful - 12 fun16 insightful - 11 fun17 insightful - 12 fun -  (2 children)

Wait until he learns that ugly mtf onlyfans is already an oversaturated market.

[–]ChodeSandwichtender and moist 12 insightful - 8 fun12 insightful - 7 fun13 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

Lots of people go through a phase where they chase a sliver of hope that they can get lucky and find a shortcut to making a living off their passions. Some people try to make it in Hollywood and sheepishly move back home after a couple years. Some people spend tons of money trying to become a popular streamer. And some people set up butthole picture subscription services.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 5 insightful - 10 fun5 insightful - 9 fun6 insightful - 10 fun -  (0 children)

I did not want to know this. 🤢

[–][deleted] 28 insightful - 15 fun28 insightful - 14 fun29 insightful - 15 fun -  (1 child)

I thought lesbianism would be a refuge from many of the toxic ideals of heterosexuality, but boy howdy was I mistaken.

Why is this guy writing this rant as if it's a product review on Amazon? That sub needs to stop trying to convince heterosexual males that they are or can ever become lesbians.

[–]blackrainbow 15 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

It's says a lot about them. They hated their incel life and seek transition as a way to escape that.

[–]FrostyNugsI'm allergic to nuts 27 insightful - 12 fun27 insightful - 11 fun28 insightful - 12 fun -  (9 children)

How excruciatingly narcissistic does someone have to be to receive no attention from women and then immediately assume that's it's "heteronormativity" instead of "wow, maybe I'm just fugly?" Or in this case, y'know, a man?

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 18 insightful - 16 fun18 insightful - 15 fun19 insightful - 16 fun -  (0 children)

So I guess that straight guys aren't heteronromative cuz THEY won't make the first move on a man EITHER!

[–]reluctant_commenter 19 insightful - 6 fun19 insightful - 5 fun20 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

This man sounds like an incel.

Also, I've never been on dating apps so I don't know firsthand, but I often hear from other women looking for women that nobody wants to make a move. Even if he were actually a woman, the same thing would be happening.

Being lesbian is about same-sex attraction, period. Do words mean anything anymore to these people...

[–]our_team_is_winning 13 insightful - 14 fun13 insightful - 13 fun14 insightful - 14 fun -  (0 children)

Do words mean anything anymore to these people...

Consult the Wokespeak Dictionary. It's like Orwell's Newspeak, but for The Current Year. (Looks up "same-sex attraction"): Ah, here it is. "Under the new Trans Ministry Guidelines, "sex" is redefined as an activity that results in ejaculation. See "gender." (Looking up "gender"): "Under the new Trans Ministry Guildelines, "gender" (formerly known as "sex" under heteronormative oppression) means any identity a person wants to have, with creative and unique ones encouraged. If you came here looking for the outdated term "same-sex attraction," see "same-gender attraction." (Looking up "same-gender attraction"): A desire to have sex with anyone who validates your feelings and gender identity.

I hope my reading of the Wokespeak Dictionary has cleared up any confusion anyone had :)

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

Hetero girls got the easier time of all when it comes to dating. Men are just far easier and less demanding in this respect.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

By what I've read men are much more demanding, especially if woman is not dumb :D

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not much in the dating department. They aren't very demanding. Usually the only real dealbreaker is weight, but something easily controllable.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, not sure, I had no problems, even with my scars. And men are so whiny, not sure if it is because I am lesbian so they acting like that with me but "strong men" with straight girls?

[–]blackrainbow 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

A tra friend of mine described lesbianism as a "political position", like it's a choice and not a natural sexual orientation

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I often hear from other women looking for women that nobody wants to make a move.

Where as... log onto grindr and men introduce themselves with a dicpic without bothering to send words lol...

[–]Jinera 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Can confirm. I have been a model for a few years so I know I am okay ish in the pretty department, get plenty of matches on tinder with girls but starting a conversation? Nuh uh. Happened less than 5 times and most of those times they send me a message just to compliment my pets 😂 (cant blame them, they are really cute)

[–]denverkrisMy pronouns are Vodka?/Yes!/please 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

actuallesbians is nothing but transbians and handmaidens nowadays. so, like on these dating apps, there won't be anyone there "bold" enough to tell him that he's a dude and lesbians aren't into dudes.

[–]peaked2020 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (26 children)

These comments seem strange to me... this is a problem that affects practically all lesbians. Women are generally not very upfront. Particularly if you’re butch, many women do expect you to be a pseudo man. I understand how they feel and think this is frustrating too...

[–]reluctant_commenter 23 insightful - 4 fun23 insightful - 3 fun24 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

I totally agree that it is frustrating, from my own experience. However, I also think it is pretty funny that a guy, trying to avoid dumb relationship dynamics, decided that cosplaying as a woman would solve his problem and then ended up with the same dumb relationship dynamics.

Being lesbian is not some magical ticket that ends heteronormative behavior, as this guy seems to think it is or should be. It is just about exclusive same-sex attraction between women, for better or worse that's all it is.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 22 insightful - 15 fun22 insightful - 14 fun23 insightful - 15 fun -  (0 children)

He cosplays a woman and want not to make first step as woman, so he is cosplaying heteronormativity himself, lol.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 19 insightful - 7 fun19 insightful - 6 fun20 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

I’m mainly stuck on the fact that he is confused that he has not received any compliments or positive attention just because he has declared himself one of us while everything about him screams “weird male.”

I don’t think he can be reacting to a lesbian dynamic if he is in no way being regarded as a woman, much less a lesbian.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 9 insightful - 8 fun9 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 8 fun -  (22 children)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure women specifically into butches expect the passive role like in an hetero relationship.Femminexfemmine there is no expectation. But I have to admit, men really got it hard.

Women to men: "he must be tall, confident, have a good job, good look, make me laugh,make the first move and being interesting"

Men to women "just don't be fat"

[–]FrostyNugsI'm allergic to nuts 15 insightful - 13 fun15 insightful - 12 fun16 insightful - 13 fun -  (15 children)

must be tall

The straight girls who require any potential guy to be 6ft+ have always perplexed me. Like girl you're 5'1, do you really need your guy to be 6'0 instead of 5'11?

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

It's a psychological thing, there is no real difference between the two, but 6 sound much bigger, that's why vendor write shit like 0,99 dollar rather than 1 . Short guys got it so brutal and height isn't something you can change. I'm very short, I've accepted the fact that my girlfriend is always going to be taller and isn't a problem. But I could never see myself with a girl one foot taller. I mean, what counts is character and cute face and not bone lenght, but there is a point when height difference just means discomfort. And don't get all these short girls refusing short guys and going to the one way taller. Must to be sexual disphormism or something. But the reality as a very short dude is rough and they dont' make up dumb nickname against women who don't want to date them like men in dresses

[–]FrostyNugsI'm allergic to nuts 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Yeah, I've always felt bad for short hetero dudes. They've definitely got a tough time finding dates. And while the mtfs chose to indulge their fetishes, they didn't choose to be short so they have more reason to feel upset. But they still aren't half as butthurt as the mtfs when women don't date them.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It is some western (or american, as I see feet) thing? Here women in general want their man to be slightly taller than them, not a towering giants, and there almost no one is saying "man need to be 182 cm or taller, 180 cm is too short" - I saw such memes only in american internet, to be honest, with 6' vs 5'11". And short men here are often very fit, so are popular even among women who are taller than them.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

In the rest of the west, 180cm (5'11) is the cutoff considered good height. Americans use strange measures, so for them is the equivalent of 182. 6ft, It's just a stupid mental thing

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Interesting, here women (and men) are not obsessed with height that much (or often at all). In most cases it is just "man must be at least slightly taller". My father is 157 cm, but he was very popular among women, and still is. Mother is 170 cm, same as me.

From what I've seen - only teens are starting to be obsessed with it, but I'd say it is tiktok, instagram and twitter influencing them.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Quite rare to see a woman dating a man shorter than her.It considered controversial, but it's really stupid mindset

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I thought this thing with 6" or 180 cm is mostly American thing, but seems it is European one too. Then our country is outdated and not very European.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

[–]FrostyNugsI'm allergic to nuts 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Wow, she sounds like a real catch! One very lucky 6'3 guy is going to have the self absorbed girlfriend of his dreams. 🙄

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

Her passion is being gorgeous LMAO

[–]FrostyNugsI'm allergic to nuts 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

She took the time to write that long bio and still all she managed to convey is that she's boring af

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

She's cute though, and on tinder look matters more than anything else.

[–]our_team_is_winning 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

Men to women "just don't be fat"

Apparently there's a new demand: be into anal

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Never heard of a dude using it as dealbreaker. I mean, there is so weirdo, but that's not a normal thing like don't wanting to date a fat woman

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 10 insightful - 10 fun10 insightful - 9 fun11 insightful - 10 fun -  (1 child)

You dated a lot of men recently to know? ;)

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

LMAO

[–]our_team_is_winning 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

there is so weirdo, but that's not a normal thing like don't wanting to date a fat woman

True story. Friend's friend -- she's fat. She had a guy for a while because she was willing to do anal. And then talk about it to her friends (I did NOT want to know!) In the USA now, almost everyone is fat. "No fat chicks" isn't really a thing anymore here. Copying what men see in violent porn is a thing though.

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Men to women "just don't be fat"

This is so ridiculously inaccurate that reading this was actually painful. Men's laundry list of demands to women tends to go more like this:

  • Don't have a pixie cut or any other sort of short hairdo, it makes you look like a boy
  • Remove all pubic hair from both your legs and probably your vulva as well, because body hair is gross on women. I of course will continue to be hairy as fuck
  • Wear a bra, even if it makes you uncomfortable, saggy tits are gross
  • Don't wear "mannish" clothing, always dress femininely enough
  • You must have perfect makeup and hair, even as I mock you for taking so long in the bathroom
  • Don't work out much if at all, I don't dig muscular chicks
  • Must have at least B-C cup size breasts, flat chicks GTFO
  • Must be willing to do most or all of the cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. My mom used to do that for me and now it's your job. No I don't care that you also work 40+ hours a week
  • Must be willing to be the primary caregiver for any kids we might have
  • More recently, must be willing to do anal, choking, BDSM, or whatever other painful and/or humiliating sex acts I saw in porn. Vanilla chicks GTFO
  • Don't have any sort of hair anywhere on your face. Pluck or wax that unibrow or that hair above your lips
  • Can't have had too many sexual partners because that makes you a slut. But also not too few because that makes you frigid
  • Must be willing to suck my dick, even if I never eat you out

etc, etc..

[–]marmorsymphata 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Hysterical that he calls himself a woman and lesbian but still complains about MRAy male needs as if nothing has changed, proving it hasn't

[–]BiHorror 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

he came at us with the queer theory terms... of course. No surprise there.

[–]FediNetizenSuper-semi-bisexual (i.e. straight) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You got a link to the actual post? I'm really curious what the commenters are saying on here.

[–]artetolife[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Are direct links allowed here? The lack of punctuation in the title makes it super easy to search for on there. The responses are mostly like generic online dating advice, obviously nobody is addressing the main issue here.

[–]FediNetizenSuper-semi-bisexual (i.e. straight) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I did a search on reddit and came up empty. Also tried google (with the exact title) and got nothing.

Links are fine; the only thing that wouldn't be allowed is encouraging harassment.

[–]dandeliondynasty 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

With the mental gymnastics performed here, it's not long before this man joins a women's sports league.

[–]3MistersAndAMissy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh dear.

Someone didn’t read the fine print on what being a lesbian means

[–]SheepleArePeople2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This man is not a pretty woman and is too stupid to figure it out. I feel bad for him. He clearly prefers to be a passive person and is deeply uncomfortable being the designated initiator/shot caller.

Sadly, he has mistakenly assumed he would have an easier time finding an equal or passive position in a relationship with a woman... as a woman, than he would as a man, which is just strictly not true. There are SO many relationships in the west these days where the woman is the leader for her man or where they have genuine equal partnership. He would have had much better luck if he stayed true to himself as a passive, heterosexual man and wasnt so horribly misguided.