Don't shoot! I'm a nazi too! "Prove it"

milkmender11 · 2023-04-20T18:26:18+00:00

Aside from grammatical gender, gender as a concept is not even 100 years old. Let's not pretend it is this obvious fact of reality that humanity acknowledges as a given. Most societies throughout history had ideas about men and women (usually if there is an 'other,' it is always only 1 other, and it is always males taking a female role) often with slightly different criteria for what constitutes a 'sex' (biological or otherwise, often moral/religious) and we tend to whitewash that by imagining our modern Western ideas of 'gender' are a reference to those ideas. Actually, 'gender' is inherently suffused with modern Western principles about how to conceptualize sex categories. It is for this reason that 'third-gender' fell out of use in cultural anthropology. By saying that the Hijra in India/Pakistan or the Two-Spirits of various Native tribes had notions of 'gender,' we place modern Western constructs on their practices as if those practices are safely subsumed by 'gender.' In practice, it doesn't work. If you are a Westerner talking to other Westerners, though, and you don't need to actually speak to people from other cultures or have your ideas make any sense to them, then you probably won't run into many problems using 'gender,' but that jars with the notion that any particular amount of genders, or the existence of gender at all, is self-evident.

milkmender11 · 2023-04-20T18:10:39+00:00

Out of Africa is by far (not even by a small amount) the dominant theory. You can express your contrary opinion and express your reasoning, but to suggest that it is anything other than the most well-evidenced theory is like saying that there is an ancient Neanderthal civilization under the Antarctic ice. The evidence for both fringe positions is exceedingly small compared to the established positions. It is exciting to imagine that there are cabals censoring The Truth from getting out, but scientists are not particularly good at that, honestly. The theory has been challenged many times and successfully defended many times too. If you want to argue for race categories in humans, you should know, you don't need to tie your argument to the hope that Out of Africa is wrong... it's a bad position to start from.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'race' so I'm not sure what your claim is when you say that only Africans don't have Neanderthal DNA. South Asians and Australian Aboriniginals also don't have Neanderthal DNA, but I doubt they fit your definition of African. Perhaps you meant to use the word 'ancestry' instead of race?

You are right about unknown hominid ancestry in African DNA--you are wrong that it is at all extraordinary. There are many such 'ghosts' in the DNA of diverse human populations. Indonesia, North India, Phillipines...

The definition of 'subspecies' is not standard in taxonomy and is tailored for usage in specific fields. Usually 'subspecies' appears in population genetics or field biology when a researcher is studying two distinct populations that have not yet diverged according to the biological species definition, but are expected to due to their current evolutionary trajectory. For example, two distant and distinct wolf populations occupying different national parks might be considered 'subspecies' by a wolf researcher, not only because a certain amount of genetic difference is detected, but because that difference is expected to increase. Researchers studying fruit flies, trees, and mice all have their own subspecies criteria. It isn't a real taxonomic category, it is a placeholder for a hypothetical category that is more of a localized tool for niche resesearchers to communicate. Basically, the way 'subspecies' is used in biology, it means "two distinct breeding populations that, given the current lack of gene flow and differing trajectories of genetic drift, are strong candidates for an imminent or ongoing speciation event."

Given how human mixture is only increasing, it is not scientifically appropriate to apply subspecies concepts to them. Using the logic of subspecies concepts, which include expectations about gene flow and drift ('subspecies' invoking more of a forward-facing expectation and the methods that are used to assess that), it would be more appropriate to suggest that human intermixture has resulted in a relatively homogenous mono-race.

milkmender11 · 2023-04-20T17:43:26+00:00

To be fair, Hillary was caught using a team of people who would post on reddit in support of her. They were paid employees, not volunteers. I doubt anyone would bother paying someone to post on saidit, except maybe investigators looking for leads on potential shooter or supremacist activities. But it is not crazy to understand that politicians do pay people to skew opinions on social media, it is confirmed. Of course the vast an overwhelming majority of the time it is just a hyperbolic way to shut one's ears, to say that everyone else is a paid shill, which elicits your likewise hyperbolic statement that it is a conspiracy theory that doesn't actually happen.

milkmender11 · 2023-03-07T15:15:53+00:00

""Asian" includes offenders who are Arab, Arab/West Asian, Asian-East and Southeast, Asian-South, Asian West, Asiatic, Chinese, East Indian, Filipino, Japanese, Korean, South Asian, South East Asian."

The other source you gave is specifically for the South Asian population. Do you have any figures for the South Asian prison population?

milkmender11 · 2023-03-01T22:00:04+00:00

According to which authority? You? Who made you the supreme authority of science? Science knows no consensus nor authority. Sorry to take away your religion and your church.

Ok. Then define race scientifically within genetics. Not a fringe paper, a pet theory. Provide the established scientific definition of race as it is understood in genetics.

There is no such thing as "objective measurement" for anything.
What are you now, Heidegger? If we are doing science, we MUST presume objective measurements. At the very least we can take an anti-realist philosophy and accept that our presumptions may ultimately be wrong, but we still have to do it for science to work. Did you want to talk science or philosophy?? Well, it wouldn't be the first time that an alt righter tried to get me off the science and onto some other topic. Honestly, that's EVERY time. And it is indeed a smart move, because you weren't going to win on the science.

Genetic clusters of races perfectly match the historical concepts in science known as human races.

DING DING DING!! Lol. Honestly, I didn't write the prior paragraph before seeing this part of your post. No lie. I just know from many of these debates that yall always try to move the conversation away from science and to philosophy or HISTORY, as you do here. Since when does history change scientific facts? History is a humanity, not a science. Of COURSE clusters match historical partitions because HUMANS SET THE K VALUE. They intentionally male the clusters resemble historical categories. This happens in 100% of all machine learning cluster operations for race. You can pass the buck by asking the algorithim to calculate its own k... based on the parameters you provide. Which is just providing k with extra steps.

I'm not saying that there are 0 races. I'm saying that there are anywhere from 0 races to as many races as there are genetic profiles, and there are precisely 0 scientific techniques to make any of those numbers more empirically justified than any other. You are astute in that you seem to realize that you MUST leave science and look to history in order to find the k that you want. Geez this is a mirror image of the same conversation I have with every alt righter on this subject. You guys are always so smart but it works against you sometimes. There really is no substitute for cracking open a modern genetics textbook.

milkmender11 · 2023-03-01T21:50:18+00:00

I know exactly what supervised learning is. YOU are the one taking a specific computer science term ('supervised') and pretending that it connects back to the dictionary definition. It doesn't. Those algorithims ARE supervised in that humans provide the k value. They correspond to the dictionary definition of supervision, which is the one you were trying to shoehorn in under the guise of the specialized term. That's what I was calling you out on. The k value is determined by humans in 100% of cases. Find me one where it wasn't. I have citations ready to take down that argument from the last time an alt righter lost this exact same debate to me--and he was a grad student in computational statistics. Smart guy! Still wrong.

Welcome to the alt-right. You perfectly described our beliefs about race.

You actually want to talk about subspecies?? Eh... let's not. You can take that move back. I would take your queen with that so I'll pretend you didn't even say this. I mean, unless you DO want to talk about subspecies. Your call.

I have this number from the experts in the field, David Reich and Svante Päabo, from one of their lectures.

Yes, scientists make bullshit claims that they are rightly called out for. Some people, such as yourself, are hoodwinked. I gave examples of specific scientific processes that would need to be settled to even begin to assess this metric of difference in years, do you have an appropriately technical rebuttal? How would you account for genetic drift in this calculation of years of difference? Are you factoring in inversions, transpositions, and repeats of genes? You know, the genetic similarity between humans and chimps can vary wildly, 10% or more, based on how you choose to quantify what a single gene is. There are position effects, VNTRs, etc etc. Genetics is a lot more complicated than you realize.

Look, you are clearly smart. You remind me of some of my brighter students. I wish lefties put in even a fraction of the thought that you have put into genetics. But the truth is that this field is WAY more complex than you realize. Of course genes modulate behavior and that behavior can be predicted based on ancestry. But that doesn't mean that race is a scientific concept in genetics, it isn't. It's a social science concept. I'm not here to tell you that you can't predict a person's temperament by looking at them. You probably can. But your annoyance with the fact that society refuses to say that out loud does NOT mean that you get to play fast and loose with genetics as a science.

milkmender11 · 2023-03-01T21:37:44+00:00

Strawman. You are talking about basic Mendellian genetics. Nobody here ever said that doesn't exist. Your conflation of that with a nonexistant genetic concept of human race is your own error, not mine. If you assume that other people have made the same error, then of course you will be unable to see your mkstake.

I never said race has no relation to genes. Of course it does. Guitars have a relation to genes. The shape of a guitar is crafted to match a human anatomy that is genetically determined. But guitars are not a scientific concept in genetics. EVERYTHING about humans implicates genetics. That doesn't mean everything is a scientific concept in genetics pertaining to human beings.

You're not going to win this, bro. You'll learn a few things, but you won't win.

milkmender11 · 2023-03-01T21:34:19+00:00

Geez you are really angry about this. Clearly you are on the spectrum so I should probably spell it out for you, but I want to see if you can figure it out on your own. First, throw your entire post away. You completely missed the point because you are oblivious to social cues online as well as IRL (I know it creates problems for you, my sympathies).

I'm not saying you are lying about Barnes. Spectrum folk do tend to make this type of error, underfitting to the data, seeing the trees but not the forest. What might I have been saying? Take another shot at it. If you still can't grasp it, I'll explain what you missed. Good luck!

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T19:28:46+00:00

and don't you forget it, stud

Honestly I like alt righters. I can always tell who the MAGA folk in my lectures are. They are usually white, male, smart, kind of socially isolated, and eager to speak their minds while having enough sense to generally not do that. A lot of them get crushes on me, the based milf professor who doesn't buy the woke bs but doesn't buy their bs either. Too bad I'm a haaaardcore dyke

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T19:23:19+00:00

You are looking at only one part of their strategy and choosing to see it as the whole. The establishment has most certainly NOT done 'everything humanly possible to censor and deplatform the alt right.' No, no, no, 100% wrong and you know it. The alt right is a household term specifically because the media intentionally inflated and promoted stories about this ragtag band of paleoconservatives (v2.0). They only censored in proportion with their platforming and promotion. It's funny, even as you say that the alt right was censored, lefties were upset that the media was promoting and popilarizing it! The undeniable fact is that there were many dozens, hundreds, and thousands of stories about the alt right and even hardcore lefties had to find a way to explain, with their own orientation, why the media they claim to oppose would 'take their side' on this issue. So they said it was part of a white supremacist plot to popularize the alt right, when actually the establishment did both the popularizing and the censoring.

Is it really a new concept that the house plays both sides and rigs the game? I miss old school 4chan. The alt right on saiddit is just a mirror image flip of reddit lefties. No more sophistication or critical thought

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T19:17:20+00:00

From my observations, alt righters are indeed high iq. Probably a lot of them are on the spectrum. Analytical, smart, somewhat socially isolated. Their intelligence lends itself to good vocabularies but I might not call them 'well spoken' per se, because they can be somewhat oblivious to the conventions of speech. I haven't noticed any prominent trend in one direction or another on fitness--there are many more fat guys in your ranks than you seem to be aware of. They do seem much more family-consciois.

And yes lefties are a lost cause

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T19:13:40+00:00

Geez, it's worse than I thought. I don't use social media or youtube. I read BOOKS. BOOKS, dude. Not youtube. That you have actually forgotten that BOOKS are a viable source of education shows just how lost to social media you yourself are. You can't even imagine another person reading BOOKS at this point!!

I read books and take notes using a system, then I go back and read the book again, this time integrating my notes into a flashcard app. I then use spaced repetition to memorize the information as crystallized intelligence. I'm sure you watch reallt cool youtube videos though.

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T19:09:27+00:00

Incorrect. Those algorithims are very much supervised. Let's take STRUCTURE as an example (but they all work this way). A human MUST tell the algorithim what k to produce. You can try to pass the buck to instead give the algorithim a way to calculate k, but it will still being doing so with the criteria a human gave it. The problem isn't that there is some undiscovered objective k value. The problem is that the way ML packages are set up to begin with makes the assumption of k mandatory.

We can genetically distinguish Scots within their own village and classify them into different races. Swedish folk in one town are more genetically similar to another than they are to Swedish folk generally. It's all a matter of how closely you choose to zoom the telescope in. You NEVER find a hard boundary on this topic until you zoom out enough to find an actual subspecies, which unfortunately for you is not a well defined concept in genetics.

A European is not on average 100,000 years of evolution seperated from anyone. You couldn't even calculate a variable like that. It is a meaningless number. You would have to estimate when a population diverged, then try to extrapolate how much influence genetic drift, convergent evolution, and local extirpations produced genetic alignment even amidst two distinct breeding populations. Then you would have to translate that speculative metric of diversity (itself a difficult calculation--do we count repeats in the code? Inversions? Transpositions?) from 'genetic difference' into 'years,' as if the rate of human evolution were a static variable that tracked well onto time. Which it certainly does not, given that the past 100,000 years of evolution were immensely consequential only at highly staggered intervals. Sometimes evolution moves in leaps, sometimes in baby steps, sometimes not at all. But all of this is going way over your head I'm sure. Standard alt right

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T18:59:45+00:00

I am a geneticist. Race is not a scientific concept in genetics. There are some papers that tried to argue for a definition of race by using machine learning software packages, but these arguments relied on statistical analysis and hinge entirely upon feeding a computer the number of races you want to see. Race is politically and historically important, but it is not a scientific term in genetics. It has no definition in genetic science. There have been many proposed definitions that all suffer from the same problems, the biggest one being that there is no objective measurement of racial division in humans. The subspecies concept is the closest thing approaching a definition of race that one might use in genetics, but it doesn't apply to humans. Some of the more sophisticated 'Race Realist' thought involves trying to compare the fixation index for humans against the fixation index for known subspecies of some animal populations. The fixation index is a calculated variable in genetics that measures the extent to which genes are ubiquitous within a species ('at fixation,' as opposed to various alleles). That is a misguided effort for a variety of reasons which I won't bother to spell out because I have probably lost you already. It was a good attempt on their part though, or at least shows a slightly better understanding of genetics science than I usually see from the alt right. I'm usually dealing with people at a different level. Around about say... well, your level.

Funnily enough, here on saidit most of the race realists I debate quickly realize that they need to try and get away from the genetics discussion because they immediately are out of their league. So they maneuever the conversation to history, politics, society. Which is hilarious, they go the route of the postmodernists. It's a more fruitful realm of debate for them though, I don't have as much to say about all that.

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T18:49:33+00:00

Right here bro. I have papers to publish (new book coming out too).

Please respond. Don't run away!

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T18:48:53+00:00

Just because you can point to some influences which you happen to prefer as the supposed progenitors pf thr alt right (Pol, Spencer, Johnson) does not mean that the establishment did not actively promote the alt right through mainstream media exposure and, more directly, FBI plants. I wasn't saying they invented the alt right wholesale, but that they correctly identified a harmless movement with no capacity for strong growth and subsequently turned it into a modern bogeyman to suit their own political ends. You assumed that just because Pol had something to do with the alt right at some point, that the establishment had nothing to do with it. You then go on to elaborate on your misinterpretation as if describing various snapshots of alt right history is relevant to the discussion rather than the result of your own error.

The movement didn't fall apart to infighting any more than it did to lack of initial cohesion, lack of a coherent narrative, lack of a common theme. When your movement is itself inflated by hostile media reporting, of course it doesn't have the organic cohesion that produces stable ideaologies. "Because infighting" is like me saying the moon is in orbit because it's big. Well, there's a lot more to it than that.

The Heaphy Report only proves my point. Establishment maneuvering to knock town the tower that their efforts cultivated. This is how propaganda works. You don't create a bogeyman and let it run rampant, you create it and manage it. You want to see the alt right as a shining example of the power of grassroots white racial unity, but it wasn't. You were useful idiots all along. You believe the government has a hand in everything EXCEPT this! Tell me, do you think the government does anything contrived and underhanded in other arenas? Oh, you do? But not here, despite the massive media attention paid to the alt right even when it was barelt a flicker?

Your points are just tired recapitulations of known alt right fallacies, though. Whiteness does not even cohere as a race to begin with. Happy to have the debate with you but I've gotten tired of knocking down the same unscientific arguments from white nationalists, I'll do it again for you though.

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T18:34:43+00:00

I'm saying that I feel a warm, odorous liquid oozing down my leg, as you stand directly adjacent to me with your fly unzipped. Your finger, however, points to the sky. I do not see clouds nor is my head wet.

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T18:32:18+00:00

Yes you do seem blue. How are things? It's one thing to get mad at people arguing with you on the internet, but you are getting mad at people agreeing with you on the internet. A rough case of the blues if ever I saw one

milkmender11 · 2023-02-27T18:29:47+00:00

Why capitalize white? It isn't a race

milkmender11 · 2023-02-26T20:59:46+00:00

dude relax the post was good the reply was supportive and now you are making yourself look lowkey unhinged ngl. Chin up it gets better

milkmender11 · 2023-02-25T00:45:47+00:00

Well my leg is warm and wet and smells of ammonia, but you're telling me it's raining, so it must be rain. I should have brought an umbrella! Never can predict these sudden showers.

milkmender11 · 2023-02-16T05:40:38+00:00

No it shouldn't, white is not a race. Aryan, Teuton, Anglo-saxon, Sarmatian, etc., these are races. The modern category of white is a hodgepodge mongrel category meant to distract us from the actual known divisions of races which we informally refer to as white but most certainly do not cohere as a single race.

Do not give into games meant to facetiously unite people of vastly different races just because they share a complexion.

milkmender11 · 2023-01-22T04:23:50+00:00

See, one of you accuses me of getting all of my views from the front page of google. YOU jokingly accuse me of being Spencer. The alt right can't even fucking agree on their mockingly derisive insults anymore. Those are opposite attacks. Geez, you people used to be smart. I used to come gere for engaging debate with people who cared enough to learn about what they discussed. Now the alt right is so disjointed, they can't even figure out what the nature of their disagreements are.

milkmender11 · 2023-01-22T04:16:39+00:00

darn I already picked the other guy but if he declines you can have his timeslot

how you think those views would show up on google at all, I have no idea. I think you read half the comment, saw me paraphrase a media talking point, and assumed that it was my own point because you're more concerned with protecting your unexamined but comforting views than considering other perspectives. Classic alt right

milkmender11 · 2023-01-22T04:16:11+00:00

Then debate me. Let's begin. Address one of my claims and provide a counterargument.

I don't really have the time to engage with alt right folk, but once or twice a year I pick someone to tear apart intellectually, just to see if the alt right has improved any of their talking points (it's been more of a continuous decline). I pick you

I just reccommend that you avoid the subject of genetics entirely because that discussion in particular will be extremely one-sided. I did talk to an alt right guy a few years ago who was getting his PhD in biostats, he did alright. Still lost to me, but I already have my PhD, so.

milkmender11 · 2023-01-21T04:59:04+00:00

They don't plan to shut you up. Not beyond a certain point. At this point the disillusioned white mongrels of the alt right (they were never the top-shelf genetic stock--that's why they throw their lot in with race & country in [current year]) are useful idiots for the establishment. They need a bogeyman to point at, an impotent and slovenly coterie of largely useless and economically impoverished white men to serve as the supposed 'MAGA hordes' that are apparently ready to descend on civilized America as soon as Trump activates his 'sleeper cell networks.' It's a fiction and the alt right is part of it. Honestly, the establishment created the alt right. They directed its evolution towards further-right nationalism (a far cry from Milo's original vision) as much as possible, so their bogeyman creation would resemble most closely the convenient characterization that they wanted it to posses. There are of course people within the alt right that keep their focus and try to incline others to do the same, but I imagine that those few luminaries are disillusioned at this point. When your movement is so... dull!... then the proof is in the pudding. It isn't going anywhere unless it is commanded to go there by the same folk it claims to oppose.

Aka... the alt right is a bunch of lethargic white guys who never fulfilled their (frequently impressive) potential and live off of dreams of some revolution that will never come.

milkmender11 · 2023-01-20T03:53:58+00:00

'White' is not an actual race category, so I wouldn't expect them to have a cohesive overarching narrative either. They are quite dilute, both genetically and idealogically.

milkmender11 · 2023-01-20T03:50:24+00:00

Didn't you hear? It's already here. It's MtF trans.

milkmender11 · 2023-01-18T03:19:30+00:00

The adderal won't give you shits if you get your microbiome sorted

eat an apple

milkmender11 · 2023-01-10T23:51:51+00:00

Contrary to popular belief, on the whole at this time, according to some potential accounts, it has been said that there are those who feel that it could be true that some possible "Church Organizations" were not at all moments in time 100% entirely opposed to bathing in of itself, per se, inclusive of healthy doubt.

thanks for the masterclass in weasel words

milkmender11 · 2023-01-07T05:54:01+00:00

Exactly, you are right. Nobody in the world does this sort of thing, ever.

milkmender11 · 2023-01-04T22:38:58+00:00

He isn't Catholic, he's Buddhist.

milkmender11 · 2023-01-04T22:31:08+00:00

This is an affront to God and an abomination in the eyes of Christ. Lucifer has earned himself a victory today.

milkmender11 · 2022-06-14T04:50:59+00:00

There are definitely generalizations you can make about traditional societies. We share a mostly-common biology, after all. It IS the case that in all traditional societies, men and women are defined primarily through folk biology. When deviance from gender norms is permitted, it is not because they believe men can become women or women can become men. Deviants are given an additional category to occupy, known in anthropology as 'third gender.' So far, every recorded instance of third gender in the ethnographic record involves the society understanding that the biology of the deviant is male or female, but they are afforded the courtesy of occupying the third gender role.

There are no traditional societies on Earth that believe men can become women or women can become men. It is possible that the Sentinelese believe this, since they have not been contacted, but it is almost certainly not the case.

milkmender11 · 2022-03-28T13:19:38+00:00

Earnestly, I'm not astroturfing. My views are idiosyncratic, but honestly held.

milkmender11 · 2022-03-28T12:51:07+00:00

My mailaise is not so much specifically directed at this particular post as it is a sum of frustrations that have been fomenting for a long time. Our 'art' is extremely derivative and musically simple. The harmonies are unsophisticated, the technical skill of the performers is severely limited, and the overall musicianship of the popular creators (not that anyone is particularly popular in the genre, that's part of the problem) is amatuer.

Pick a classical composer at random--they were probably an ethnosupremacist. But back then, there was a market. Now, to make music with any pro-White themes is professional suicide, so the class of professional musicians in our movement is virtually absent. Whomever the pros on our side are, they keep quiet about it.

What we are left with is derivative muck that is about as substantive as the American folk revival, which is to say, a deep receding of musical sophistication under the guise of cultural significance and bucolic simplicity. What happened to the folk revival? It was immediately appropriated by communists and subsequently commercialized. The only people it never helped were the common folk.

milkmender11 · 2022-03-28T12:31:51+00:00

Classical music is more 'music' than anything extant today. There is more substance there, but generic punk and metal with vaguely nationalist themes thrown in is hardly music at all. Music is mathematical before it is cultural.

milkmender11 · 2022-03-25T13:22:45+00:00

Damn, we have got to do better on the music front. All of this fasci 'music' is such steaming horseshit, it makea rap seem like Wagner. We had Bach, we had Mussorgsky, and THIS is what we come up with to represent our movement? It's copy-pasted trash from the punk era. It isn't even vaguely original. I'm a trained classical musician and it sickens me to see us reduced to this. No wonder people think we are so feckless.

milkmender11 · 2022-03-25T13:17:07+00:00

It was foolish and naive of them to do that, but it most certainly is indeed a game. They are pawns, not players--the players are elsewhere, safe and sound. It is a game being played with people's lives.

milkmender11 · 2022-03-03T04:14:44+00:00

Almost as white as Japan

milkmender11 · 2022-02-26T00:15:28+00:00

Happy to remind you.

https://saidit.net/comments/8kqu/comment/w091

We had discussions going in multiple threads there, and you simply stopped replying in each one. Regardless of being right or wrong, it is bad optics that you won't commit to defending your arguments and instead bow out when the material reaches a certain level of sophistication.

milkmender11 · 2022-02-26T00:07:28+00:00

radicalcentrist? I remember you. I stomped you in a debate about race about a month ago. You floundered before giving up replying altogether after I started getting deeper into the science than you were prepared to discuss. Have you read up on genetics since then?

milkmender11 · 2022-02-24T06:22:20+00:00

Yeah, it's pretty bad. Sometimes I get comments to the tune of "Hey now, that's too far! (but bravo for being on the right side of history)"

milkmender11 · 2022-02-24T02:06:55+00:00

I will often troll on reddit and call for unprovoked violence against conservatives, terfs, the unvaccinated and white people generally, for political reasons. Never been banned or gotten a warning for it. Sometimes they delete my comment, that is all. You can openly suggest that unvaccinated people or people who criticize trans/BLM ought to have their homes broken into and be beaten, robbed, or murdered. You might get your comment deleted, not likely to be worse than that, as long as you don't come across to obviously as a troll.

milkmender11 · 2022-02-22T19:33:33+00:00

Interesting bet, let's see if it plays out. We're playing for pride. If you're right, you stay and the other guy leaves Seddit. If you're wrong, he stays and you leave. I will be back at the end of the month to enforce

milkmender11 · 2022-02-13T04:55:02+00:00

What do you mean by 'Jews that were alright'? Jews are often smart, brilliant even. Is your qualm with them primarily moral, rather than a critique of their intellectual abilities?

milkmender11 · 2022-01-29T04:41:59+00:00

What do you need? Opiates? Benzos? Muscle relaxers? We got you at your local pharmacy, bro

milkmender11 · 2022-01-27T22:32:40+00:00

Jokes on you, I am both smart and sad

milkmender11 · 2022-01-27T07:24:19+00:00

My good faith OP is about how I want trash off of SaidIt. I'm not pretending. You can leave with him if you like. You can guarantee that if you break the rules.

You call us trash and assert good faith in the same breath. You remind me of my best friend. He likewise has this streak wherein he may behave as a bad faith actor, but so long as he honestly believes that 'trash' is an objective assessment and not his own opinion, then in his mind, he is acting in good faith. In reality it is an inflation of self-opinion, if not outright narcissistic. You self-define your parameters as objective and so semantically reorganize the argument in a way that, in your view, you have won before anyone says a word in contest.

And on this obscure corner of the internet I don't want to read spam, trolls, shills, liars, bots, and rule breakers clogging and tangling up our threads.

You didn't decry SE as a spamming bot, and the spirit of your original post was to convince others that he is a rule-breaker, which shows that you are aware that it is not a given.

I do want trolls, shills, and liars here. I want to practice my ability to detect them (perhaps you would benefit from such practice as well, since your initial post seemed to suggest that you were on the fence about whether or not SE is a troll). So you have your opinion and I have mine. If you are so undeniably correct, where are the mods? MODS! I am a liar and a troll. I lie and troll on Saidit. I do other things too, but I hereby admit freely that I lie and troll. If this is a violation of the rules, please ban me. I will not circumvent the ban with a new account, I will simply respect your decision.

Let's wait on that and see what happens.

I don't think of you. I don't even remember interacting with your alias name before this post.

If I wrote texts this long to a girl, she would rightly suspect that I have a crush. It is quite flattering. Is it my sisquipedalian elocution?

Sealioning like you, plus lying and downward dragging to undermine SaidIt, as I've already stated.

The rules don't mention sealioning or trolling. The pyramid of debate says nothing of this. In fact, the pyramid suggests that if the trolling encourages respectful debate, then regardless of whether or not it is trolling, it is good Saidit content. SE usually exercises a high level of debate despite his trolling. I am glad that he does so, because he presents leftist remonstrance better than real leftists do. Debating SE is like jogging with a weighted vest. Good practice for debating the real lefties, who are too often mismatched if they try to debate at all. You and I here have remained nearly exclusively in the top three eschalons of the pyramid. I don't see anything in our exchange that is anything other than exemplary Saidit content. This post has more engagement than I have seen on Saidit in weeks.

I already see your rich vocabulary worth great respect (best I recall on SaidIt) but a cornucopia of vernacular flourishes without substantial ideas ultimately exhibits as an empty fragile vase ever yearning for ephemeral flowers.

See? We respect each other. The trolling SE and I do is sophisticated. We only troll people like us, people we respect. It's a delicacy, much more involved than trolling common idiots. It's easy to find them on reddit but they bore us. It truly does take a mentally ill hypocrite to do this sort of trolling, just as you said. We are very strange people, but we still contribute meaningfully to Saidit. You should be flattered that SE has (I presume) trolled you more often or more effortfully than most. It is a sign of respect. The three of us should get together for brews.

We write so similarly, if we suddenly censored our usernames and started arguing each others' side, people would have a hard time even telling who was who. Of course you respect me, because you respect yourself, and you recognize our similarities.

Magnificent Emerson quote. Bravo. I cede the point on the mob's evaluation

milkmender11 · 2022-01-27T00:30:04+00:00

Another 'tide is turning' post? Been seeing these since 1994. Classic.

milkmender11 · 2022-01-25T05:48:07+00:00

And yet here you are, engaging on my comment, a comment with virtually 0 engagement apart from you. You do care. You are here, with me, typing back and forth. You aren't communicating to an audience. You are comminicating with me and you know it. We are here together in this tiny little comment thread that barely another soul will see. This is why 'care more' is such a classic troll refrain. You are here, typing, you care. Regardless of what you say about intending to speak to someone besides me. If you really meant that, you wouldn't reply to me here. Please do, though! There is only one way I 'lose' here, and that door closed the moment you replied.

I understand your critique. In the long term, I can envision some possible futures in which you are actually entirely correct. I think the problem runs deeper though. The issue isn't that nobody challenges it. The issue is that there are invested entities that actively stifle our societal inclination and ability to challenge it. Their dominance would have to be contested before challenging trolls like SE would have any meaningful effect. I think you are putting the cart before the horse, so I'm not concerned with whether your analyais is correct or not. I would sooner hear an argument about how you think trolls like SE damage the quality of Saidit as a community.

milkmender11 · 2022-01-25T05:41:01+00:00

Oh, cut the disingenuous faux-concern. Your posts are dripping, dripping with supercillious contemptuousness. We aren't redditors. We know you. We're all kind of like you here. At least I openly ridicule you, you aren't fooling anyone in pretending that you are acting in good faith. That's why I mocked you for acting so. That was the joke. Swoosh.

So don't backpeddle now and say you were doing anything other than saying you want SE and I gone. This isn't a debate, we both know you. We are both walking into this knowing what is in your head. It's just you and I here, nobody else gives a shit about this speck of a thread in this solitary post on this obscure corner of the internet. This is functionally DMs between us to. Drop the act and tell me what you really think of me. HIT ME damnit HIT ME

You have failed to offer a justification of why your marvellously vague and frankly bizarre interpretation of the rules is correct. You seem to think it is a given simply because you say it. So let's so the Saiddit thing, if you want to 'follow the rules' so badly. What is your argument? Give me the specifics. How is SE breaking the rules? And how is your argument rooted in a reasonable and objective interpretation of the rules, absent your own personal conjecture?

Your boring attempt at satire is tedious and predictably plain.

My friend... How can I explain this... That isn't how this works. I'm not defending myself, trying to demonstrate that to you that my words are not tedious or plain. That is the point. YOU are the point. Eliciting that reaction, specifically, from you, is the point. I would be sarcastic, tedious, plain, sardonic, insightful, or creative, only just to receive this response from you, specifically. That is how trolling works. That is its lifeblood. Welcome to the internet.

It is interesting that you find my suggestion to be tedious and plain, though. That indicates you have received the same suggestion repeatedly, to the point where it has become excrutiatingly banal. You even imply that I commit a faux pas by invoking such supposedly quotidian tropes. Curious--I have never received the suggestion myself. Most of us here haven't. What is unique about you that it comes so frequently?... The mob doesn't agree on much, you know. Perhaps there is some wisdom in their consistent critique of you.

milkmender11 · 2022-01-25T05:09:42+00:00

I would expect any dedicated troll to indeed be mentally ill, hypocritical, and hateful. That's why we troll and the veridical reality of those characterizations is not lost on us. This is an art form that you don't 'get'--no, it is more than that. This art form depends and relies on you. You are the most important ingredient in SE's trolling. Thank you for being a part of our community! I, for one, am very glad you are here. Your presence enriches my Saidit experience, and I truly do mean that earnestly.

milkmender11 · 2022-01-25T04:46:53+00:00

Ah, I see--you are suggesting that, because I like SE, I should leave and go somewhere else so you can have a Saiddit that more closely resembles what you wish it to be, absent SE and I. I understand your meaning and grasp your suggestion in the good faith with which it was made.

I likewise have a suggestion to offer. Since it is your preference to ban SE, and to ask me to leave Saidit, I believe your priorities are less aligned with Saidit and more aligned with a different forum-style site that you may or may not be aware of.

Please direct yourself to: www.reddit.com

They would love to have you! Your censorious inclination is precisely what they are looking for over there! You will fit in magnificently.

milkmender11 · 2022-01-25T04:40:40+00:00

ShalomEveryone is a master-level troll and this post's engagement stands as a testament to his skill and dedication. The fact that he has not posted here only goes to reinforce his patience and nuance, two of the most overlooked and important aspects of an excellent troll. You may not be commenting here SE, but we know you are with us, watching over us.

milkmender11 · 2022-01-24T21:49:39+00:00

Nah we don't do that here. I like SE. Refreshing and undebiably dedicated troll methodology. Old school 4chan would be proud. Besides if you ban him, who the heck would even still be on this site. It's like him and four other people

milkmender11 · 2022-01-16T09:29:33+00:00

In terms of sexual selection, East Asian women have the most gracile features. This doesn't mean they are 'the most attractive,' since that phrasing is inevitably a matter of personal opinion. However we can modify the question a bit so it has an objective answer:

All other things equal, what race of woman would the highest number of men find to be most attractive, on average?

For purposes of simplicity we will ignore the conditioning that people go through to be attracted to this or that (not something that can be ignored IRL, but you understand). East Asian women are more neotenous, more gracile, slighter of frame, less inclined towards corpulence, and more demure by nature. However, East Asians have the lowest genetic diversity of all races, and are most genetically distinct from the original African type. Remember, as you move away from Africa, genetic diversity decreases. Therefore they are 'more different' from other races than other races are to each other, and there are fewer outliers, generally speaking. So while as a matter of evolution, East Asian women are probably the most universally attractive on average, we ought not to expect them to have as many standouts as other races. So they would be more beautiful on average, but rarely would an East Asian be the most beautiful individual example. Most people probably don't think about this in terms of averages and instead visualize a handful of the most attractive women they have ever seen, probably settling on 'white' unless they have a particular inclination. But that is hardly a scientific way to answer the question. Think of all the homely women in that mental sample that you have left out. There are probably more unfortunate looking white women than East Asians (per capita), if you're really honest.

It's a shame that the African females are generally considered unattractive. It isn't their fault. They only had to compete with each other in Africa, where the dark complexion and more robust features, higher testosterone, etc., were all useful in that environment. Now they have to compete with hyper-gracile Asian females and white standouts that just weren't around in their ancestral environment. However for that same reason, black men are considered more attractive in the West (and East Asian men less so). According to this notion, though, some of the most beautiful individual women in the world would be at least partially black, rare as they might be. Take that as you will.

At the level of physical attraction, it's all reducible to simple universals as matters of ontogeny and endocrinological development. We're still apes at the end of the day. The psychological element makes things much more complex--I could write a whole thesis about that, which is why I did write a whole thesis about that, back in my masters days.

milkmender11 · 2022-01-16T09:13:36+00:00

Some ethnonationalist you are, why not raise a mixed family then? Hybrid vigor is fashionable nowadays

milkmender11 · 2022-01-16T03:25:12+00:00

You know I love you SE but don't piss on my leg and call it manischawitz

milkmender11 · 2022-01-10T18:28:07+00:00

Thanks for reminding me about 9/11 and Pearl Harbor! I had forgotten about them completely. When I saw the mangled bodies from Jan 6, the rivers of blood, the murdered children lying in the street, I simply forgot those lesser attacks of 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. I used to be one of those deluded conspiracy theorists who thought that MAGA folk were just garden variety conservatives, union folk, and even more of a rainbow coalition than any conservative movement in American history. But Jan 6 proved to us all that the White Supremacist hordes are coming for us all. I knew that we used to say 'Never Forget' about something besides Jan 6, but as the media has rightly implied, Jan 6 is the rightful reference of that phrase.

milkmender11 · 2022-01-10T18:22:35+00:00

I know people like this personally, but they don't share their views online at all. Their attitude is usually race-realist, but with a heavy dose of sympathy and sometimes even a begrudging acknowledgement that maybe it is better left unsaid, since there is such a poor track record of handling that information graciously.

milkmender11 · 2022-01-10T17:59:19+00:00

Honest question--do you believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ? Do you accept the truth of the Bible, and that Christianity is the only true religion?

milkmender11 · 2022-01-03T01:31:40+00:00

I once used my BM while having a BM

milkmender11 · 2022-01-01T08:00:26+00:00

As a stupendously pretentious high-IQ and educated person with 5 degrees (BS, BM [classical music, I play at a professional level], MA, MS, PhD), I find about the same rate of fellow intellectuals on reddit as I do saiddit, per capita. The ones on reddit skew left and the ones here skew right. However threads here don't get pinched by mods, which is a plus. But truth be told, there are still plenty of subreddits with low moderation that escape the eyes of the establishment. As long as those communities exist, the niche saiddit is trying to fill will already be largely occupied.

milkmender11 · 2022-01-01T07:54:40+00:00

tell me about economics

milkmender11 · 2021-12-25T18:28:43+00:00

He'll get bored when he realizes it's only the same four or five people responding to his posts. I do what he's doing too sometimes. My post history is full of exactly these types of posts. It gets boring fast

milkmender11 · 2021-12-08T23:34:29+00:00

I predict that they will continue to win

milkmender11 · 2021-12-06T18:40:41+00:00

It's a local physical newspaper. They don't publish the entire thing online. But I totally want to dox myself for some guy who has already made up his mind.

milkmender11 · 2021-12-06T18:39:23+00:00

These standards are old as dirt. Every time we try to allow miscegenated White types into our movements, they do exactly what we can expect corrupted genes to do.

Look, I empathize. You've got some polluted genes. Your heritage isn't pure European. But does that really mean you should damage the future of our movement by spreading that pollution? Simply do what you can to aid your pureblooded brothers, and prune yourself from the tree of life.

milkmender11 · 2021-12-06T18:37:56+00:00

Oh, sure! I agree with the strategy of using polluted Europeans / lesser Whites to help us promote our interests, for now. But as much as it is risky to alienate them by admitting the truth like this, it is MORE dangerous to convince ourselves that they have a place in our ethnostate. Polluted Whites do not belong. They are merely useful idiots.

milkmender11 · 2021-12-06T18:36:30+00:00

What difference does that make? That isn't even an argument. That is progressive color-blind utopian fantasy. Do you admit that the Nordic and Teutonic forms are the only pure varieties of European?

milkmender11 · 2021-12-06T02:41:56+00:00

Let's not pretend all Europeans are equal, though. That's just another variety of colorblind progressivism. We all know the ideal White form--the Teutonic and the Nordic types. These are the only Europeans with a future in our ethnostate. Anglo-Saxons, Iberians, Sarmatians, Laplanders, Fins, and all manner of what Thomas Huxley called 'dark whites' are no more a part of our European race than the Hindus and Semitics are.

milkmender11 · 2021-12-02T01:15:49+00:00

Flavor-aid

milkmender11 · 2021-11-29T04:20:56+00:00

Forgive you for not believing that I live in Bumfuck, Middle-of-Nowhere, American Midwest? I'm just tickled that for once people are skeptical about it. For the longest time, people just said, "Oh... and that is... where, exactly?" All of a sudden nobody believes me, it's hilarious.

Indeed I do. In a regional newspaper they mention that it is annual, but they held it earlier this year anticipating that the winter might involve lockdowns. I'm not going to dox myself by sharing a pic of it to satiate the curiosity of a rando on Saiddit who has already decided that he isn't going to believe anyone but himself, though.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-29T01:47:03+00:00

I live an hour away, they do it every year. That particular parade is some kind of Catholic event. They pretty much ignore Thanksgiving (Columbus was also Catholic and they prefer not to draw attention to him) and they go right to Christmas instead. Same as in the UK.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-28T22:25:33+00:00

You honestly believe this? Come on, man, don't be so gullible. This goes deeper than you realize. TPTB are using the event to fool you into believing bogus conspiracy theories so you miss the REAL conspiracy that is right in front of you. They planted the phony 'evidence' to make it look like a hoax AFTER the fact. To throw you off the trail. The reality is that this guy actually did run over a bunch of people, but then they had agents come in to delete footage, brainwash witnesses, plant false evidence, etc. Just look around, the proof is everywhere. Don't be such a sheep.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-28T22:14:15+00:00

American Christians abandoned Christmas to leftism and commercialism. They abandoned their posts. Hollywood just came in and decided to market the pieces back to us.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-27T19:58:54+00:00

several similar unsurprising studies in several countries, including also the US and UK, where it is shown that people and immigrants without money (and from countries where they also had not much money) sometimes resort to crime, and some of those crimes include rapes

Excuse me? This is disgustingly racist. You are a racist.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-26T22:51:04+00:00

I accept your forfeiture. Good debate!

milkmender11 · 2021-11-25T17:35:02+00:00

You didn't address the substance of my post, though. Purity is real. When we talk about the European type, we are referring to specific traits that, in fact, only a minority of Europeans even have. We are referring to the most pure forms, the Nord and the Teuton. Everything else deviates from that ideal. Are we to tolerate dark-white Moorish influence from Southern Italy or Spain in our vision of a future ethnostate? What about the still-serviceable but ultimately miscegenated Anglo-Saxon? This debate had already surfaced in the early 20th century. We can't pretend this isn't of major importance, not even to court a bit more support for our causes.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-25T17:29:52+00:00

Whiteness is obviously based on

No, it isn't obvious. "It is obvious" is not an argument. This is social science prevarication. You sound like a UCLA sociologist! Going on about laws and human attitudes--we have the science to assess this empirically. So let's.

Jared Taylor has a video on the history of race that I can find for you, but he did a damn good job at showing how consistent the definition was all throughout the years.

Jared Taylor did a terrible job in that video, which you would not know if you didn't take the time to verify the information for yourself. Don't watch youtube videos to get your information. Read "The Rise and Fall of the Caucasian Race." THAT is the gold standard for comprehensive history of Whiteness. It's a 300+ page book, not a shambolic youtube video put together by a closetted Asian Supremacist like Taylor.

where do physical and social characteristics come from? Why for example, would the U.S pass laws like Jim Crow or use the One drop rule if they didn't believe that Whiteness and Blacks were suppose to mix?

I see this far too often on this sub. A facetious deference to science coupled with a curious refusal to actually speak scientifically. It comes from being uninformed about genetics at a sufficiently high level to speak compendiously about race, and a fear that a leftist who knows more might show up and drop unfamiliar terminology. So we pretend to respect science while engaging in precisely the same silly sociological/anthropological humanities equivocation that leftists do.

Genetics is the ONLY way we can discuss race empirically. Everything else--legal, geographic, social, historical--is just a crude reference back to science. We HAVE the tools to discuss this correctly. Any focus other than genetics is simply inferior.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-25T17:20:21+00:00

This holds true even within the White races as well. A Nord is plainly discernable from a Polack, as is a Teuton clearly distinct from a Sarmatian.

The reality is that we are trying to play both sides, and it is a doomed project. We pretend that there is no such thing as White purity because, truth be told, we are not doing very well politically. People hate us. We don't want to alienate Spanish whites, or Eastern European whites, Italian whites, etc., because we want all the support we can muster. But guys. The cat has been out of the bag for decades. The Nordic and Teutonic types are the throne of Whiteness. These are the forms with the purest genetic lineages, the races who maintain the distinctive features that make up the quinessential "European" phenotype. Anything else is a miscengenated form. Their allegience is useful, for a time, but it has always been the plan to serve the ends of the pure European, not the diluted one.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-25T17:04:40+00:00

Based on what?

Exactly. That's MY point. What is Whiteness based on? The criteria have changed many times over the centuries. Anyone who has read the early racialist scholars knows this. The debates they had were rigorous. If you are arguing that the definition of Whiteness has not been variable over the years, then you are wrong before you even get a foot out the door. You are positing a nonexistent cohesion.

It doesn't matter if there are in-betweens or overlaps.

Nobody here made the gradient argument, but I understand that you are responding to that argument because you are used to it coming up. I'm not some random leftist with tired talking points, though.

Except it's still historically valid.

As I said, there is nothing that even begins to resemble even the most remote semblence of cohesion in the historical conversations about race. The debates were quite spirited. History itself is valid, but isolated historical narratives that we want to be correct for our own emotional reasons are not necessarily so.

You go on to start using legal rather than historical OR geographic. You are going to lose this debate every time, man, but it IS winnable. Enough with this social science gobeldeygook. When we talk about race, we talk about GENETICS.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-25T06:23:40+00:00

The definition of Whiteness has always been highly variable. If we try to rewrite history like this, we will make ourselves look quite foolish. History is fickle. Science is consistent. Our definition of Whiteness must be scientifically defensible, without reference to geography or history. We already tried to defend a notion of cohesive Whiteness by using geography and history--look where that has gotten us.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-25T06:21:37+00:00

Geography is not genetics, though. The various white races are frequently as different from one another as they are from non-white races. Sarmatians, Laplanders, Fins, Phrygians, Slavs, Teutons, Anglo-Saxons... William Lawrence categorized the many typologies quite thoroughly. Thomas Huxley correctly divided the white races into 'dark' and 'light' varieties. Remember--as you get further from Africa, genetic diversity reduces. Only the East Asians can claim a relatively small number of typologies.

We must prioritize science above our desire for racial unity. As much as it may pain us to admit, there is no cohesive white race. It is important for us to acknowledge that whiteness is a gradient, a series of typologies with variable purity.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-25T06:15:25+00:00

But what if the Chinese made the vaccine to preserve THEIR genome while the whites die out

milkmender11 · 2021-11-25T06:10:01+00:00

We also have to keep heterosis (hybrid vigor) in mind. When offspring have parents from two diverse populations, they exhibit enhanced fitness. This is usually meant to refer to strong immune systems as a result of high heterozygosity from the two populations, but it likely applies to IQ as well. That would explain a large percentage of the big 'bump' with mixed black/white kids.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-21T02:42:34+00:00

It probably has less to do with social science notions of 'green space' and more to do with hard genetics. Asians are more closely related to each other than Whites. They are more comfortable in close proximity to each other because they share more genes.

milkmender11 · 2021-11-14T20:48:35+00:00

Don't we have to establish when whiteness began first? What are the origins of the various white races? How have they continued to fracture in the modern era? Which bloodlines have remained most pure? We must not assume that whiteness is a single race--that is more wishful thinking than reality.

milkmender11 · 2021-10-22T15:09:56+00:00

Geez I thought we were just trolling I didn't realize you were actually taking all this so personally. Relax man it's just some ribbing on the internet. Not worth blowing a gasket over. peace

milkmender11 · 2021-10-22T14:52:00+00:00

Obese BMI is obese.

milkmender11 · 2021-10-22T14:39:45+00:00

I don't think overweight neckbeards quite make the cut for 'master race' but you do you

milkmender11 · 2021-10-16T13:38:10+00:00

Abortion is not under assault from conservatives, it is being used as a wedge issue by democrats. Conservatives blocked Obama's court pick for eight months. Democrats desperately rushed to fast-track ACB in a matter of weeks. They barely had enough time to lay out the rosepetals for her, but they managed. They did this to trigger court decisions that they could use to bludgeon democrat voters over the head with. "See those awful republicans, challenging abortion?? We told you they were awful! Nevermind what we're doing elsewhere!"

milkmender11 · 2021-09-23T15:51:13+00:00

Jews are also white. This is a battle between conflicting white tribes, not a war of whites vs. Jews. You're cousins.

milkmender11 · 2021-07-18T06:58:09+00:00

A lot of people care that you are calling me a schizophrenic Jew. I am worried that this will impact my life negatively, because what you say matters a lot. Won't you please take your comments down before people see?

Now assumptions based on appearances are bad? The other guys said this was about resounding answers, not nuanced assumptions that involve detailed understanding of everyone's parental lineages. Do you agree with what he said or not?

It's great that you did a lot of background reading on Logic. If you put a picture of him in front of random Americans, don't say his name, don't talk about his parents, what would they say his race is? Society will give a resounding answer, and it won't be the same as what you want it to be. Again, if you have a disagreement with the Sheikh, why are you responding to me? Respond to him.

I'll gladly not talk to a kike battling with his schizophasia whilst attempting to do tactical nihilism.

Lol, you got all of that wrong. Not a Jew. Atheist. Not a schizo. OCD. Not a 'he.' Biofemale.

I have only the faintest idea of what tactical nihilism is, but I can clearly see how you mean it here--it means 'disregards the arguments I like'! Nice buzzword, though. Very cool. Makes you sound super smart

milkmender11 · 2021-07-18T06:21:45+00:00

9People don't see their parents. If I showed you each twin without context, you would say one is Black and the other is white. When you walk around, do people come up to you and demand to see photos of your parents? No. They just have a RESOUNDING ANSWER about what you are. It's the same for these twins. They don't go around getting called 'mixed.' Everyone takes one look at them, don't know anything about their parents, and knows which one is white and which one is Black. I thought you liked RESOUNDING ANSWERS! Now we need to invoke everyone's parents in order to know their race? That isn't very resounding.

What about the example I gave with multiple mixed race Asian parents? It's the same situation, with a different distribution. You see many people like this every day. You think they are Black, white, Asian. You don't know about their parents and you don't ask. You do what everyone does. You give your resounding answer.

A lot of people here care about your assessment of my sanity. I care about it a lot as well. It is very important, and consequential.

milkmender11 · 2021-07-18T06:07:14+00:00

Wow. "Nuh-uh!" Is your reply. Want to throw in a "nya nya!" or a "neener-neener"? Give me a wet willy maybe, or kick me in the balls? I haven't got any, sadly.

You are also mixed raced. Everyone is mixed race. That doesn't matter. What matters is society's RESOUNDING ANSWERS, as you said. Nobody looks at the white twin and says 'she is mixed race.' She is white. That is the resounding answer. Nobody looks at the Black twin and says she is mixed. Everyone gives the resounding answer: SHE IS BLACK. But now, you don't like resounding answers anymore!! Now, you like nuance. Now you like to nitpick, and be specific. Now it really matters to you that we look PAST the resounding answers of society, and keep in mind who is 'mixed' and who is 'not mixed,' even as society rolls their eyes at you and continues to give the resounding answers that you liked 30 minutes ago.

milkmender11 · 2021-07-18T05:19:04+00:00

Yes, two Black parents can create an Asian kid. Yes, two Asian parents can create a white kid. Yes, two white parents can create a Black kid.

You are wrong.

https://www.konbini.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/12/files/2018/03/national-geographic-cover-april-2018-race.adapt_.1190.1.jpg

These are twin sisters, from the same parents. One is Black, one is white.

Now, it is a bit complicated. You don't realize it, but you are invoking the "rule of hypodescent." This is a known anthropological concept. Your categories are social, and they break down when we apply more rigorous scrutiny to them.

Chen is Asian, but he has half white ancestry. Because he lives in the USA, where Asians are a minority group, he is seen as Asian, not at all white. Everyone knows Chen is Asian. Nobody goes out of their way to say he is 'half white.' They don't even see it, since Asian alleles tend to be dominant.

Chen marries Sue. Sue is also Asian, but half white. Everyone likewise knows that Sue is Asian. Her census record says 'Asian,' not 'Asian and Caucasian.' Just 'Asian.'

Chen and Sue have a daughter, Sally. Sally is white!! She looks white, everyone sees her clearly as such. Of course, this can happen. It's luck of the genetic draw. The genes were there, and society has spoken. The phenotypes interact with the zeitgeist, and everyone knows exactly what box to put these people in. Chen is Asian. Sue is Asian. Sally is white. Nobody hesitates to give their 'resounding answers.'

Now, here is where you want to try and be specific, when it becomes inconvenient for you. Before, you said that these questions have resounding answers. Indeed they do! all of Chen's coworkers know that he is Asian. But now, you don't think the answers are so resounding. Now you want nuance and subtlety, now it is complicated. Now it matters to you that Chen is half white.

See, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want it to be the case that everyone 'just knows' the answers to these questions, but they don't. They have many default assumptions that they make as a matter of their socialization, assumptions that vary enormously from culture to culture, and they won't become more nuanced to accomodate your worldview. Chen IS Asian. Everyone knows it. Sue IS Asian everyone knows it. It is your 'resounding answer.' Sally IS white, and everyone knows it. You can kick and scream and try to persuade society otherwise, but they aren't trying to make your case. You have to do it yourself, and I doubt your reply is going to have a 'resounding answer.' You're going to try to be nuanced, to bring in the little things that matter. What happened to 'resounding answers'??

I didn't mention the continuum fallacy and I didn't mention dog breeds. I appreciate that you refer to this as my 'style' of argument, because you know I didn't say any of that. It's like 'homestyle' food, aka, not homemade. So I won't bother addressing your point about dogs, because it is YOUR point, not one I made. I'm making arguments different than the ones you seem prepared to reply to, which is very much an altright theme. I didn't talk about sex or gender either. Let's stay focused.

And who's denying race?? Again, whose argument are you replying to?? Race is extremelt real. It isn't science, but not everything has to be.

milkmender11 · 2021-07-18T03:57:45+00:00

This is against all laws of data analysis.

It isn't. The program will always give you the number of clusters you ask for. Your misunderstanding is that you are mistaking BEST FIT for TRUTH. The model is only ever there as a tool to help you answer your question. It doesn't represent reality. Actually, the bad fits are just as important as the best fits. They are negative results, scientifically speaking. None of this method ever leaves the realm of the experiment. It is always a hypothetical approximation of reality which presents a picture that is either more or less useful to answering your qustion. Science trumps data analysis.

I wrote an email to Josh. Seems like a good professional contact to have. I copied your arguments here (username redacted) and asked him if he agrees with your argument about racial clusters. I'll be sure to share his reply with you when he gets back to me.

This will keep going until someone stops replying or the mods decide to step in, but, for what it's worth, there are hints of truth in the race realist narrative. It isn't scientific, but it doesn't need to be. Here, I'll make a better version of your argument for you:

"Science exists in service of human longevity and well-being. There is a truth that trumps scientific consensus, and that is the truth of which ideas work in the real world and which don't. Sure, you can poke holes in my attempt to scientifically classify races all day, but that won't change the fact that race is immensely important to people, guides their actions, motivates them to kill and hurt and riot. If, one day, there are people banging down your door because you are or aren't one race or another, you'll regret all of this obfuscation you're engaging in here. You'll regret playing science-games to catch me on technicalities, because no amount of scientific reasoning is going to persuade those people to stop crushing your door. At that point, the only 'truth' that will matter to you is the truth of your arsenal and your allies. And we have SEEN this happen, recently. By attacking the people trying to bring attention to the importance of race, you only make it that much more likely that we are overwhelmed by what we do not understand, because you refused to hear us."

milkmender11 · 2021-07-18T03:56:32+00:00

Are you of the misconception that race realists believe that there exists a fixed number of races? This is not the case. No one holds that position.

Cop out. You refuse to answer the question because you know you can't. There are as many races as you want to see. Just because a bunch of people have decided that they refuse to answer a question because they can't, that doesn't mean it is a defensible position. It isn't. This is your 'turtles all the way down' moment. Scientists DO have an answer for how many species of sea cucumbers we have documented. They DO have an answer for how many subspecies of grey wolves there are. Why don't YOU have an answer? The rest of the scientific world isn't shy about this when it comes to taxonomic classification, but you have got cold feet all of a sudden.

Are you conflating me with someone else?

Nope. No conflation. I mean exactly what I said. Your first link contains data from studies that were conducted using STRUCTURE. They are landmark studies, often the first cited in these discussions, and cite them first you did.

I simply want to argue that race is real.

Of course race is real. I would never say something so ridiculous as 'race isn't real.' Race is one of the most consequential and painfully real things in the modern world, perhaps the single most consequential. But it isn't a scientific concept. It is a social construct emerging out of the biological reality of our intuitive, cognitive racial-classification modules. In fact, with reference to those modules, in a way, race IS biology. Not in the way people think of it, as a real attribute of human population genetics, but as a little part of our brain that has evolved to see race wherever we look, because so far it has proved adaptive.

The same objections that you're using against race can be used to deconstruct the concept of species.

No, they can't. As I explained before, you are using the color spectrum argument that you already admitted you reject. I say that SPECIES is a legitimate taxonomic classification and SUBSPECIES is not. You say that my same gripes with subspecies can deconstruct species as well. This is identical to someone saying that the gradient of colors shows that there cannot be an actual yellow, and actual orange, an actual green. The existence of intermediaries does not disprove the existence of the discreet categories. Subspecies is an intermediary between 'species' and 'individual.' It is undefined in science, or, rather, it has so many definitions as to render it mostly meaningless outside of very specific bodies of literature. Are there glimmers of inconsistency in species categories? Of course. There are discrepencies between biological, phylogenetic, cladistic species, etc. That does not mean that the vague and undefined intermediary (subspecies) somehow deligitimizes the defined and specific category (species). That is the color spectrum argument. You said you disagreed with it (even though I never brought it up until you did), and then you used it to try and delegitimize the species concept.

No, it didn't.

Yes, it did. I have an excellent source for this. YOUR video. Didn't quite remember Josh saying that one bit, eh? ;)

I have been very generous in that I have willingly gone into the territory you chose, stats and ML, just to show that you will lose even on your home turf. But we have hardly even explored the anthropological assumptions in your argument. What are our preconceived ideas about race? How do you KNOW what the clusters are in advance? What is this information that you refuse to talk about? It is absolutely imperative to your argument. You keep saying it over and over, so obviously it is important. What are our preconceived ideas about race?

milkmender11