all 73 comments

[–]jim_steak 29 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 0 fun30 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To me the clearest difference between the trans movement and the gay rights movement is the messaging around identity. The gay rights movement encourages people to accept themselves, and is generally devoted to living in a way that's truthful and honest to who you really are. It's about acceptance of oneself and self love, and it's also against the lies straight people told when they pretended gay people didn't exist. In my opinion, honesty and truth are healthier than lies, and so a movement that is pro-honesty is a healthy movement.

On the other hand, the trans movement is all about denying reality and running away from the discomfort and pain caused by gender dysphoria. The message of the movement isn't about self acceptance, but about changing yourself into a new person, then forcing everyone around you to affirm that new identity. Trans people claim that they transition to become their true selves, but anyone who has (oftentimes accidentally) invalidated a trans person's view of themselves knows how fragile this transformation is. That's why they feel the need to censor conversations about trans people in a way that LGB people never do, because even the smallest dissent can break their denial. A movement that requires people to be constantly denying reality is a movement based around sickness rather than health.

[–]JulienMayfair 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's interesting to me that I've known two trans people who told me that they regretted transitioning because they thought it was going to fix their problems, but it didn't. One of these committed suicide.

I've known gay people who were unhappy, but among all the gay people I've known, I've never had one of them tell me, "I think I was really straight all along, and I regret identifying as gay."

[–]onetwothree123 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The difference between being trans and being gay is that you don't have to hold any false beliefs to be a homosexual. Homosexuality is a desire/action, and being trans is a belief. Being a man or a woman is a physical reality that you can accept or deny, but denying it doesn't change your chromosomes. You don't have to hate yourself or change anything about yourself to be gay, but that's the entire point of being trans. Not to mention the fact that by pretending a trans person is the sex they wish to be, you're defining woman and man by sexist stereotypes. Being trans is a mental illness because believing you're the opposite sex is a delusion. People can argue that homosexuality is wrong if they want to, but gay people aren't deluded.

[–]MilkTea 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

TQ+ rode the coattails of LGB. The only reason their movement gained quick traction was because they used us as a shield and spread lies. "Well they got their right to marry, so now listen to all of our demands, bigot!". "You owe all of your rights to transwomen of color!". And when I say right to marry, I only mean in some western countries. TQ+ wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they were independent and being honest. I don't doubt there are LGBs who supported them from the beginning, but I wouldn't necessarily say we created it.

We can agree that gender and sexual orientation are separate, so we shouldn't compare the two. Homosexuality doesn't require harmful surgeries in order to be our "true selves". We didn't try to convince straight people that we are also heterosexuals, but only attracted to the same-sex. TQ+ are manipulative.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

People still think homosexuality is a mental illness. I can't tell my family in Serbia that I'm a lesbian because about 60% of the population still think it's an illness. So it's not as recent as 30-40 years. It's still going on, even in western countries.

[–]MyLongestJourney 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

To think that the Serbian prime minister is a lesbian...Greetings from Greece by the way.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They're clearly fine with LGB if they're useful, but won't let them marry legally and adopt. Hopefully you guys are little better off and not as Orthodox Christian focused? (I'm not over in Serbia right now, but I've been quite a few times and hear from family over there)

[–]MyLongestJourney 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We are just a little better as homosexual couples are allowed to form a civil partnership,but they are not allowed to marry or adopt.Any other kind of discrimination against homosexual people is banned though.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

people are blaming same-sex marriage equality for the current TQ mess

I can see the connection here. Gay rights groups existed to fight the last great 'battle' for true equality. They were (one can assume) reasonably well funded and employed a lot of people. When gay marriage was legalised (and I'm talking specifically about in the US here, because this woke nonsense is very much a US import) these organisations didn't simply disband, thanks for your hard work everyone, back to the 'regular' world of work with you.

It will sound like I've got a tin foil hat on, but I like to think of this as similar to cancer research. There must be billions of dollars of research going into curing cancer every year, all over the world, and the cancer research industry must employ hundreds of thousands of people. If they miraculously discovered a cure for cancer tomorrow, do you think they'd all quietly shut down and that would be that?

A better example might be Big Racism™. People like Robin DiAngelo and Ibram X Kendi make thousands of dollars for appearing at a single event and telling people how racist they are. The armies of Diversity and Inclusion Managers and Unconcious Bias Training Seminar leaders depend on the existence of racism for their very existence. That's why racism is suddenly not only so pervasive that every interaction between two people of a different race is awash with racism in some way, but also so invisible and insidious that the very structures of society itself are now also racist. That kind of 'racism' will never go away and people like Robin DiAngelo will be laughing all the way to the bank until people realise she's little more than a fart in a frock and collectively waft her out of the room.

Second, it's sometimes hard not to agree with the foaming-at-the-mouth conservative radio hosts who argued that allowing gay marriage was a slippery slope to allowing all sorts of other nonsense. We're seeing the nonsense now. It's refreshing to see that things like paedophilia and bestiality are still beyond the pale, but it's only a short leap from 'children can consent to life-changing medical procedures' to 'children can consent to anything an adult can'.

As for your second point, I myself often struggle to reconcile the concepts of 'being trans is a mental disorder' with 'being gay isn't a mental disorder'. I'm not a psychiatrist so I can't weigh in on the intricacies of mental health diagnoses, but I am soothed by the evidence that you can't really 'treat' homosexuality; sexuality seems to be pretty fixed. Attempts at drug or conversion therapy don't appear to work, whereas many (most?) people who undergo intense therapy for gender dysphoria (especially younger people) will 'snap out of it'.

Of course, that's a poor yardstick by which to determine whether something is or is not a psychiatric condition. Many people have intensive medical and psychological intervention for all sorts of 'established' mental illnesses like schizophrenia or anorexia and never 'really recover'.

[–][deleted]  (28 children)


    [–]slushpilot 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    That's a very gross stereotype of "white people". Imagine essentializing any other group of people like that. Grow up.

    [–]Daddiescummies 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    It's not a "gross stereotype" to accurately describe how fragile racist White people (especially racist white gays) are when you call them out on how their bigotry reinforces systemic racism.

    Imagine essentializing any other group of people like that. Grow up.

    I don't have to. That's literally how society treats every other race.

    [–]SerpensInferna 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    What society? Go to fucking China and tell Chinese people the same bullshit you're trying to lay down on white people right now.

    Fuck outta here with your bullshit.

    [–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

    Most people are racist to some degree, not just white people.

    [–]Chunkeeguy 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    Just try being from the wrong clan or ethnic group in any African country

    [–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Everyone seems to forget Rwanda these days, even though it was relatively recent.

    [–]SailorMoon2020 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    To be fair, that started because of European colonization and the the desire to be close to whiteness. The two ethnic groups fighting: one had European ancestry and thus physical traits while the other group did not.

    [–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Ah, that explains a few things.

    [–]Daddiescummies 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Does genocide existing in Africa post European colonization, exploitation, and pillaging justify American enslavement and genocide of Black and Indigenous people?

    [–]Chunkeeguy 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    I don't think you can be reasoned with as you seem to believe those things are a "white" pathology and didn't exist before European colonialism. You should talk to some Neanderthals. Oh, shit, that's right...

    [–]SerpensInferna 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Because pre-colonial Africa was a complete utopia, I guess.

    [–]Daddiescummies 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Still not understanding why genocide and enslavement driven by whites' demand for resources and land was a necessicary component.

    [–]Daddiescummies 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    True, except white Americans were the ones who engaged in mass enslavement and genocide of Indigenous and Black people to build generational wealth and systems that continue to exploit Black and Indigenous people to benefit whites.

    [–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    That doesn't negate my point. Are you trying to say people of colour can't be racist because white people are really racist in that specific case?

    [–]TumbleweedFireflies🍷 your ol' drunk mod[M] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    That user is banned, and yes, that's exactly what they would say.

    I left their comment up because there is some truth to American enslavement of minorities, and that's discussion-worthy.

    However, that user would not be discussing it in good-faith, and is also derailing every single thread they participate in with it. This thread isn't about white racism in the USA, it's about US marriage equality for LGBs.

    [–][deleted]  (4 children)


      [–]TumbleweedFireflies🍷 your ol' drunk mod[M] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      We can all say bitch, bitch. However, don't be a bitch and bring your bitching to a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with your personal problem. Don't target another user while you're being bitchy either, we don't allow that. Also ... none of us knew YOU reported another user, but now YOU just put yourself on the radar. Good job, bitch.

      OK, enough of that.

      Send a message to moderators to review your case. We call it "ModMail" for anyone familiar with Reddit/SaidIt subs, but for those newer or unfamiliar, it's called "message the moderators". It's linked all over the place, but here ya go:

      Please reference me by name - TumbleweedFireflies or IPD (my old username) - and I'll look into it. If you send a message tonight and I'm offline, I'll be back tomorrow and will respond.

      Please provide a link to your removed comment and/or your ban message (or you can reply to the ban message to immediately resurrect it into our ModMail). I was gone for several months for personal reasons, and am back now, and can't locate it. I checked your profile for posts/comments over the past year and don't see anything removed. If you deleted it, well ... ¯_(ツ)_/¯

      [–]SailorMoon2020 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      That user, forgot the name, targeted that other user, and nothing was done. So again, we either all can be bitches to each other or we cant.

      I don't give a fuck about putting myself on the radar; the sub has less than 2000 peeps, and members can simply block me if they don't desire to see my comments. It's not a big deal, basically, especially since I'm hardly on the site since it keeps breaking down which it will do again quite soon.

      I also don't was a MOD. Nonetheless, thanks, for the shout out!

      [–]SerpensInferna 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

      Bitch. No.

      [–]MyLongestJourney 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      It will sound like I've got a tin foil hat on, but I like to think of this as similar to cancer research. There must be billions of dollars of research going into curing cancer every year, all over the world, and the cancer research industry must employ hundreds of thousands of people. If they miraculously discovered a cure for cancer tomorrow, do you think they'd all quietly shut down and that would be that?

      It has happened before with other illnesses like tuberculosis. There was a whole industry built on treating tuberculosis. There was no true cure but there were surgeries and sanatoriums. When the antibiotics which killed the bacteria causing it were discovered,the sanatoriums closed and medical professionals retrained.

      I would also like to point out that drugs have patents with a time limit and one company can not exploit their own creation forever.

      PS. I could explain why it is so damn difficult (and actually impossible) to create a silver bullet type of treatment for cancers (there are many types) but this post is already out of topic.

      [–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      THe slippery slope from gay marriage was men marrying dogs. No one saw the gender stuff coming. If we hadn’t merged with th we would have just moved on to not getting fired for being gay, and then maybe international laws. I don’t see how marriage leads to gender ideology.

      Homosexuality doesn’t cause you distress unless it’s coming from external pressure to not be gay. Younger lgb have less and less of this societal pressure. Trans with disphoria, they really have distress over their own selves, they see their bodies as wrong. Those that aren’t dysphoria are just playing with gender because they believe in the gender religion. Not sure if they count as mental illness though.

      [–]JulienMayfair 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Your analysis of the cultural/political fight leaves out one factor: the professional activist class.

      Once marriage equality was achieved, the gay rights organizations we'd founded now needed something else to do to justify their continued existence. You had lots of people who were now professionally "LGBT." They needed a new cause to keep themselves employed, and gender identity became their new cause.

      [–]Chunkeeguy 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Spot on. Some formerly solid heroes of the gay rights movement in Australia have become TRA champions and cheer squads for the dystopian nightmare that is self ID.

      [–]MyLongestJourney 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      The LGBT orgs were taken over by queer critical theory believers.

      [–]Horror-Swordfish[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      It's so insidious, isn't it?

      That's why I sort of have the line of thought of, "Well, I guess I can see how LGB orgs contributed to this, but it's not an LGB problem; it's a critical theory problem!"

      But that doesn't mean too much to someone on the outside that looks at me, a gay man, and lumps me in with blue-hair xenogender people because "we're all LGBT." I know that some orgs are popping up that are specifically focused on LGB issues, but it seems like such an impossible battle to regain any sort of respect people once had for the quiet gays that are just trying to exist without too much trouble.

      [–]MyLongestJourney 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      You either keep fighting or give up. The least we can do is financially support even with small donations every genuine LGB org.

      [–]GatitoMalo 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Well you've found a particularly sane corner of Reddit...

      Yes, I think that we can look at the USA and the UK and historically assess that the TQ+ stuff didn't come until after gay marriage. In part due to the normal people packing up their activism and going home once the majority goal of full citizenship was accomplished. In part due to activist organizations like Stonewall and HRC needing to keep the lights on and the money flowing. Your points #1 and #2.

      So yeah, the social conservatives were correct in their assumed outcome. It was a slippery slope, but I don't think they understood that it would work in this fashion. Correct outcome, incorrect reasoning for it. Now, the concern I have with regard to them is an inability to see the difference between the two camps of people. Those that just want to live their lives and those that are activists who will never be satisfied. That's an important distinction I would consider when evaluating social movements. Conservativeism is essentially a desire for things to remain static, if you reach an agreement with them that there is a Mission Accomplished step, you'll get a lot farther with support.

      Gay 2.0 (TQ+) is not the same thing as gay 1.0, but the TQ+ crowd wants to bolt itself to the success of 1.0 and pretend to be the same thing. This much is obvious. The gay rights movement did not create the TQ+, they've been around for a while, but it did give them a framework. A framework with historical success, which TQ+ are in large part ignoring, because trans activism is not about living your own life in peace and tolerance, it's about forcing others to participate, say things that are untrue, robbing people of their livelihoods, etc.

      As far as mental disorder goes, that's a philosophical problem, and one that it's easy and compelling to move the goal posts to get the desired outcome. What constitutes "clinically significant distress" anyhow? Where does that distress come from? Society? Internal to the individual?

      But I see your point... will I look back 40 years down the line and think, gee, I can't believe I thought trans was a mental disorder? What though is the distinction between having a mental disorder and our attitudes around mental disorder though? Major depressive disorder is a mental disorder, and many people suffer from it. It's called depression, colloquially. We're quite sympathetic to it, because experiencing grief and loss is part of the normal human condition. Everyone can relate.

      Unfortunately, the treatment we have available for the various etiologies of transsexualism--affirmation is one approach that may be appropriate, if you're only looking at the microcosm of the individual. Especially with regard to childhood-onset GD. You can find men with autogynephilia that fully understand they have a paraphilia that makes them motivated to become a facsimile of their erotic ideal, and that they are indeed men. You can also find children who learn about transsexuals from television and see their own path forward, cementing the idea in their heads.

      That does not mean that affirmation approaches should be all-encompassing, such as sports, bathrooms, etc. It's very undemocratic to rearrange our entire society for a minority. I think there's a healthy balance, but don't ask trans activists about what a good compromise is, they don't understand the concept.

      If I'm being cynical, homosexuality would not have been removed from the DSM if there was a "treatment" for it. Trans... trans we can "treat" with drugs so I don't see it coming out any time soon.

      It's a question to me of whether or not you can have success getting the person to identify with their birth sex. Some cases yes, other cases no. If you can, then that's going to lead to the best life for the person. If you can't, then affirmation might be the only thing that improves their lives, but it's not going to be a great life in the overall. Trans isn't beautiful, like the activists say it is.

      I don't view affirmation as discarding it as a mental disorder. I think of affirmation as one option as treatment for mental disorder. "Yes, you have major depressive disorder." "Reeeee! No I'm a depressive! It's my identity!" It's a weird way to treat, I'll give you that though, it's like telling schizophrenics that the voices in their head are indeed real.

      Of course I can rope this into the DSM and homosexuality insofar as how the mental profession stigmatizing homosexuality is a cause of distress and draw the parallel to trans. Which some activists do, but they're between a rock-and-a-hard-place in terms of medical insurance vs stigma.

      I don't think being in the DSM is all that stigmatizing, I think it's societal attitudes. E.g. what I mentioned about depression.

      I think that perhaps further etiological understanding of homosexuality, paraphilia, and childhood-onset GD might blow this entire discussion up again. E.g. That's many years down the line though.

      Ultimately, the salient confluence of trans and mental disorder, to me, is false belief. In some circumstances, you can dissuade them from the false belief, but that won't necessarily change their situation.

      [–]millicentfawcett 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I don't think same sex marriage caused this. Firstly because there are countries that have embraced transgenderism where marriage equality doesn't exist. Secondly the groundwork for much of what's happened was laid decades ago. Orgs like The Beaumont Society/Press for Change in the UK have been around for a long time. We had the Gender Recognition Act (2004) years before marriage equality, in fact one of the main reasons the GRA exists in the UK is because the government at the time did not want to introduce same sex marriage.

      That said organisations like Stonewall have taken advantage and accelerated things due to having a vacuum post marriage equality. It's provided them with a new cause and new income stream. So I can see why people conflate marriage equality and what has come after.

      Re the mental illness aspect. I don't necessarily think it's a problem to have removed the T from the DSM just as it wasn't with gay. For me it's a case of present outwardly how you wish but stop pretending people can change sex and that there are no consequences to that lie.

      As a comparison it would be like gay people decades ago rather than fighting for acceptance of reality e.g two men can be in a relationship and that's fine, insisting their relationships were actually heterosexual despite the evidence of our eyes.

      I really don't see how in 30/40 years the concept of gender ideology will have survived all the inevitable casualties. Things are pretty bad now and a hell of a lot of people are starting notice. Are people really going to be discussing in decades to come about how it's so great that no females compete in sport now? Will they reminisce happily about how backwards it all was when AFABs used to win Olympic medals? I hope that's not the dystopia we have to look forward to because it's not a world I want to live in.

      [–]sneeuweekhoorn 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Same-sex marriage was legalized here in the Netherlands in 2001. The TQ shit really kicked off around the mid-2010s. Legal sex changes without sex reassignment surgery were in 2014 here.

      That's 13 years between the 2 things. I think drawing a connection between them is just wishful thinking by religious conservatives.

      [–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      For me the TQ storm is a result of cultivating a generation of narcissists absorbed by insta selfies and cultivating online identity.

      Most people are just not that interesting so something needs to be created for most people. Que ocd, mental illness, "introvert", autism and social anxiety becoming trendy to these narc kids. Perfect to get sympathy points and attention. But then everyone got "anxiety" so more needed to be created. And voila , gender bullshit was created.

      Now everyone can be oppressed, have a weird flag, and freely call people bigots while toxically venting their narcissistic rage

      LGB orgs jumped on it because they didn't have much to do anymore. Companies jumped on it because saving the rainforest worked so well so it was the new cause. Influencers are narcs so duh. Politicians jumped on board because they are all fucking morons disconnected from the real world. And big pharma, well ka tching!

      As for the mental illness part, I mean it's not hard. The entire premise of transexuality was extreme rare severe mental anguish of young gay boys and a last ditch attempt to help them after years of therapy. Thats all changed now but one thing remains the same, that in studies looking for other mental illnes than "dysphoria" there is an unusual high percentage of transgenders that have narcissistic personality disorder (this is psychopath territory not just being narcissist), borderline personalit disorder, bipolar, and a sea of others.

      It's become a clutch for mentally ill people to grab on, for attention and some think they must be trans because they feel weird and all their problems will be solved if they become a new person. A lot of teenagers are victim of this too, this demographic feels the most out of place and weird.

      It's honestly quite sad.

      [–]JulienMayfair 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Just because homosexuality is no longer classified as a mental illness doesn't mean that depression and schizophrenia are no longer mental illnesses. Also, studies have tended to show that transition really isn't a very good treatment for gender dysphoria since a large proportion of people who transition report continuing to be troubled by the same issues. This was why Johns Hopkins stopped doing gender transitions. They were tracking their patients and found out that it wasn't helping them.

      Trans people have represented being transgender as Gay 2.0, but it's not the same thing.

      [–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Is there any validity to the idea that LGB created the TQ+ storm?

      Yes, unfortunately.

      The TQs just took the already existent political institutions formed to fight for LGB rights and repurposed them for their own ends. It also doesn't help that the majority of people still conflate transgenderism with being gay, even though most transgender people today are straight people.

      Also, professional activists are drawn to money, never forget that.

      It's a striking parallel, in my mind. Something feels different about it to me, but I wonder if that's not my own biases at play. As a gay man, of course I don't think that being gay is a mental illness that I need to be cured of. In 30 to 40 years from now, we will look back on this time and say, "I can't believe people thought that being trans was a mental illness; how backwards of them!"?

      Do you need to subject yourself to hardcore body modification in order to express your sexuality? Hell, does any gay person needs to be constantly validated in order to not kill themselves?

      The answer is no, which is the main thing that separates being gay with being transgender. A gay person can just blend in in society and be fine, which cannot be said of a transgender person.

      Also, being gay is not based upon a false belief about one's body, like gender disphoria, which is another factor that differentiates the two.

      [–]Dromedary 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      "homosexuality was considered a mental illness and it was not that long ago that it was removed from the DSM"-

      It's been 48 years. Almost half a century. I get what you mean, but it also wasn't just yesterday. It's actually a very long time ago.

      [–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Firstly, there is a thing that I've seen popping up on Reddit a lot where people are blaming same-sex marriage equality for the current TQ mess we seem to find ourselves in.

      My take is: not exactly. First, because the TQ+ epidemic, like America's opioid one (as documented in Sam Quinones' 2015 book Dreamland), is far too virulent to come down to a single source. This is the result of multiple factors. Second, same-sex marriage was just a symbol for LGB normalization. THAT was the REAL goal: acceptance of homosexual and bisexual people by mainstream society. This had to happen-- it's what "gay rights" were all about. And there's nothing wrong with that.

      The problem, I think, is that a minority of LGB people didn't want to be "normal": they were very invested in seeing themselves as radical, countercultural, "edgy" and "freaky". This alienated them from the LGB majority, who had never wanted to be "freaks" in the first place and now eagerly abandoned that status/identity. So when the TQ+ showed up, these people were highly receptive to them as fellow "freaks" (based on their intense public fetishization of gender and "gayness", respectively). Plus, I suppose-- having zero appeal to the LGB rank-and-file anymore-- they needed allies.

      So, even as recent as maybe 30 to 40 years ago, there were people that looked at gay people and said, "They have a mental illness and need to be cured of it." Then I look at some of the things that I've said about the T, specifically, "they have a mental illness and it needs to be treated as such and not just affirmed."

      Here's the thing: both trans and LGB identity are based, ultimately, on one's feelings. But this is necessarily the case for the latter, since your sexual orientation is DETERMINED by feelings-- attraction to one or both sexes. I mean, there's no "gay gene test", so how ELSE are you gonna know? Conversely, neither your sex nor your gender are determined by how you feel. The former is a matter of biology, and the latter of social roles: your culture defines and imposes gender based on your observed sex. How you feel doesn't enter into it. If it did, do you think that women and girls wouldn't have escaped their sex-based oppression (like child brides, FGM, being unable to vote or own property, widows being thrown on their husband's funeral pyre, etc.) simply by saying, "oh, I don't identify as female"? So "trans" is doubly not a thing. Unlike being gay, lesbian, or bisexual.

      As for whether trans is a mental illness, seems to me that it has all the hallmarks of a delusion. Much the same as someone who's convinced that they're the messiah. It's manifestly untrue, but they refuse to acknowledge this and demand that everyone else follow suit. If people won't go along, they lash out in a rage, and/or break down. Insert "opposite sex" for "messiah", and you have the T. Does this sound like a psychologically-healthy state to you?

      [–]Elvira95Viva la figa 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (14 children)

      I do think being trans as homosexual trans isn't a disease but just extreme homosexuality, like being too masculine or feminine. It start it the womb, where they didn't get enough testosterone during brain development for male or got it too much for female. The hetero one got a fetish. They don't have natural and real gender disphoria.

      [–]MyLongestJourney 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

      It start it the womb, where they didn't get enough testosterone during brain development for male or got it too much for female

      Do you have concrete evidence that lack of testosterore during brain development leads to GID ? And by concrete I mean published papers?

      [–]Elvira95Viva la figa 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

      No, I wasn't talking about gender identity, I was talking about homosexuality. And gender identity being a spectrum of it.There is a reason gender non conformity (like naturally femininity in male and natural masculinity in women) is way more common in homosexuals. I don't have a specific paper but among many research and theory the hormones in womb sounds the most logical. They've been studies on lesbians have a bigger part of the brain like hetero males and gay males having this specific part smaller like women. And there was a rat study making embryo rats brain subject to more or less testosterone, the more testosterone was followed by this brain part getting larger and resulting in the rats(males and females)beign female attracted while the less testosterone experiment, ended up with the same brain part staying smaller and resulting in male attraction in rats of both sex. Also significant correlation with lesbian women often having ring finger longer like males, which is casually linked with testosterone in womb (like in my case). So, people with natural gender dysphoria are just extreme homosexual. And when studies are showed of trans having brain similarity with women, they are showing feminine homosexual males.

      [–]GatitoMalo 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

      DOI 10.1007/s10508-007-9265-1


      [–]MyLongestJourney 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

      Yeah,those papers do not support that trans is just extreme homosexuality. They just attempt to justify a correlation between sexual orientation and abnormal prenatal hormone levels.

      I will also have to remind you that a percentage of trans males and females is completely heterosexual.

      [–]GatitoMalo 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

      You're not going to be able to understand trans if you lump all the etiologies together into "just trans" and try and treat them as a homogeneous group, but the activists will love you if you do.

      [–]MyLongestJourney 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      You're not going to be able to understand trans if you lump all the etiologies together into "just trans"

      I am not doing that,I have no idea how you got that idea. My personal hypothesis is that genuine GID arises mainly as a conflict between one's true personality and society's gender expectations. And then you have the ones who claim to be trans but are not GID sufferers. Those are the most likely to be the fetishists.

      [–]GatitoMalo 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

      So you want a paper that links hormonal organization of the brain, during neonatal development, and GID?

      From that paper's conclusion:

      Our data show that current sexual orientation is not only predicted from the degree of prenatal androgen exposure as indicated by the CAH-severity classification, but in addi- tion also from the degree of masculinization of gender- related behavior during childhood.

      They go on,

      The latter variable could reflect variable brain responsiveness to prenatal androgens as well as postnatal psychosocial influences, provided retrospective reporting bias can be ruled out. This study does not provide an opportunity to decide between these options.

      So there's a putative mechanism for you. In terms of childhood-onset GD, homosexuality is heavily implicated.

      It all makes logical sense, but if you want a paper sampling circulating hormones during all stages of neonatal development longitudinally put up against GD, you're probably not going to get that.

      This study did looked at cross-gender association:

      At the end of the imagery section, the participant was asked about the frequency with which they saw themselves as ‘‘a person of the opposite sex’’ in their erotic imagery, sepa- rately for the past 12 months and lifetime (since puberty, excluding the past 12 months). As Table 7 shows, all groups except SV included some women with such experience.

      But more specifically, they were looking at overall gender-nonconformity, which is implicated in childhood GD. Right?

      And there's citations to get you started, like

      Meyer-Bahlburg, H. F. L., Gruen, R. S., New, M. I., Bell, J. J., Morishima, A., Shimshi, M., et al. (1996). Gender change from female to male in classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia. Hormones and Behavior, 30, 319–332.

      [–]MyLongestJourney 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Thanks for the link.

      Beyer-Bahlburg, H. F. L., Gruen, R. S., New, M. I., Bell, J. J., Morishima, A., Shimshi, M., et al. (1996). Gender change from female to male in classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia. Hormones and Behavior, 30, 319–332.

      Their sample size was a mere 12 women with CAH.Hardly a reliable sample size.

      Contrast that with the many butch women who are not CAH sufferers.True many of them are lesbians but there are also heterosexual butch women.

      Edit. From another study :

      This article reviews the literature on studies and case reports on gender identity and gender identity problems, gender dysphoria, and gender change in chromosomal females with congenital adrenal hyperplasia, raised male or female. The large majority (94.8%) of the patients raised female (N= 250) later developed a gender identity as girls and women and did not feel gender dysphoric. But 13 (5.2%) patients had serious problems with their gender identity.

      Edit : From another study :

      Six 46,XX patients with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) presented with genital ambiguity, five so severe that initial gender assignment was male. Once diagnosis was realized, parents were involved in evaluation and chose sex re-assignment as female. To date, these girls and their parents all indicate satisfaction with their decision for a female sex of rearing. The girls have a female gender identity with behavior characteristics known for females with CAH. Thus, while outcome is satisfactory, it is realized that for most, expression of sexual orientation and adult life adjustments have not yet occurred.

      [–]ZveroboyAlinaclownfish is a clown or a fish? || Febfem 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Women with CAH can die without correct treatment (treatment for males is not sufficient in hard cases), so that "re-assigment as female" was life-saving and not just "to feel better in new gender identity".

      [–]Elvira95Viva la figa 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

      There are homosexual transexuals and transvestite. The problem is gender identity has put naturally feminine gay men and masculine lesbians who were the transexuals of the past and the reason the T was together with LGB with transvestites AGP, meaning heterosexual men who get turned dressing up and playing a female part. The first type is natural , the second time is a fetish.

      In the past it was a automatic that if someone was trans it was homosexual. The transvestites AGP lived their fetish in private, since living openly was taboo.

      [–]MyLongestJourney 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      There are homosexual transexuals and transvestite. The problem is gender identity has put naturally feminine gay men and masculine lesbians who were the transexuals of the past and the reason the T was together with LGB with transvestites AGP, meaning heterosexual men who get turned dressing up and playing a female part. The first type is natural , the second time is a fetish.

      Actually Ray Blachard identified two types of men with GID in his research. The first were homosexual effeminate men,the second completely heterosexual men with AGP.AGP does not exlude GID.

      [–]ZveroboyAlinaclownfish is a clown or a fish? || Febfem 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      If "being trans is extreme form of homosexuality" then this means that conversion therapy was correct in assuming that homosexual people are just opposite sex? This makes so little sense.

      [–]Elvira95Viva la figa 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

      No, only a small percent of homosexuals are super feminine or masculine to the point the would be more comfortable living socially as the opposite sex. I didn't say they are the opposite sex, the're just super feminine men or masculine women, especially the feminine men face lots of problems for their femininity, even from gays, so some of them find more comfortable living as transwoman.Most of us aren't like that. I said it's the extreme of the spectrum. But I don't think gender dysphoria is being crazy.

      [–]ZveroboyAlinaclownfish is a clown or a fish? || Febfem 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      That does not mean them the opposite sex, and if society can not accept gender non-conforming people, then it is society which need to be changed - not people themselves.

      [–]Dromedary 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      An aspect that I don't see mentioned here is while trans rights or cultural ascendance came after significant gay victories- under the gay umbrella, riding gay coattails etc- there are factors that don't have to do with gay people. The explosion of social media has a lot more to do with it than gay org. Smartphones + social media, trans people are in touch with each other like never before, trading info on all sorts of things- meds, surgeries, laws, activism, coping- trans visibility today would not be what it was without social media. Parallel to are the explosion of gender clinics, recognition of dysphoria as a real medical/mental condition, insurance/Medicaid in the US paying for surgeries etc. Pharma companies and media companies seeing a new untapped market. There are a lot of other factors in trans visibility today that have nothing to do with LGB people and their organizations.

      [–]ThrowMeAway2879 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      homosexuality was considered a mental illness and it was not that long ago that it was removed from the DSM.

      I've found a useful shorthand for whether a condition is an illness or not is the question whether it needs treatment. Does being gay degrade your quality of life (in and of itself, disregarding societal pressures)? No, it does not, therefore it needs no treatment, therefore it's not an illness.

      Discounting the transtrenders, trans people have or at least claim gender dysphoria. They 'can't live with their body' and need or want treatment. So it's an illness, because in untreated form it (by itself) negatively trans people's quality of life.

      You can't say "I need surgical intervention and permanent hormone treatments to live my life" and in the same breath claim that you don't suffer from an illness.

      [–]book_hoarder 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I have thought about this as well, and the one thing that sticks out to me is that, originally, transgenderism was entirely predicated upon the claim of mental illness. Transitioning was to be used as a treatment for crippling gender dysphoria and supposedly alleviated any symptoms of feeling "trapped in the wrong body." That was the whole point. In fact, it was only after gender dysphoria was taken out of the equation that the trans crusade stopped making sense. Using cross hormones or even surgically altering your body makes at least some sense in the context of treating a disorder. However, doing these things purely for the purposes of "self-expression" just comes across as narcissistic and insane. The only thing you can compare it to are people who undergo extreme body modification, like the "Tiger man" who tattooed his body with stripes and got fang implants. This is why people typically have more sympathy for transmedicalists or "truscums" than the other members of the TQ+ crowd. Yes, it's your body and you can do what you want with it, but when you do it purely for the purposes of "self-expression" AND demand that the entire world sees you the way you see yourself, it becomes a problem. You are literally imposing yourself upon everyone else.

      With same-sex marriage, one of the more compelling arguments was that another person's marriage has no impact on anyone else's. My gay marriage has yet to disrupt the harmony of any other heterosexual couple I know. But if I demanded to be able to fuck my wife in their bed, then maybe they would be less supportive of our union.

      [–]HelloMomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Same-sex marriage is legalized, and suddenly all of the people fighting for it have two options: (1) stop and go home and be happy that you achieved your goal, or (2) continue to fight and just find something else to fight for/about/over.

      You're not wrong, but I do think it's worth remembering that for the people who were employed by a LGBT organizations, if they decided, "Well done, that's over now," then their employers would be closing up shop and they'd be out of a job. So they were incentivized. I'm trying to imagine a hypothetical situation in which that wouldn't be the case, and I'm coming up blank. How do you avoid that?

      [–]throwaway999 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      suddenly all of the people fighting for it have two options: (1) stop and go home and be happy that you achieved your goal, or (2) continue to fight and just find something else to fight for/about/over.

      No, they could have directed their resources towards places where homosexuality is illegal. But yes, all they gay rights activists just said "welp, we're done" and were taken over by TRAs because "you don't have to understand us, but our cause is exactly like yours because of this comparison, this analogy, and a healthy dose of shame if you don't support us, because don't you wish more people had supported gay rights when you were fighting for them? Nevermind that none of us participated in the fight for gay rights and actively work against them to this day.

      not too long ago, homosexuality was considered a mental illness and it was not that long ago that it was removed from the DSM. So, even as recent as maybe 30 to 40 years ago, there were people that looked at gay people and said, "They have a mental illness and need to be cured of it." Then I look at some of the things that I've said about the T, specifically, "they have a mental illness and it needs to be treated as such and not just affirmed."

      An unfortunate coincidence. Sexual orientation can be physically measured, while "gender identity" can not, because it has no basis in material reality, unlike homosexuality. This is proof that while homosexuality is not a mental illness, gender dysphoria is (which is an established fact anyway).