Why do so many women deny the existence of misogyny?

submitted by RedditHatesLesbians from self.GenderCritical

Why is misogyny treated as something that doesn't exist, or at least if it does, isn't serious and can just be brushed off? I feel like so much of TRA ideology would fall flat if we as a society truly acknowledged the existence of misogyny, instead of making light of it and dismissing it over and over.

It's as if because we can have jobs now and have had the vote for 100 years, clearly we're 100% equal and any woman who even brings up misogyny is a "Karen." She isn't one of the cool girls anymore, she's a red faced, probably sexually unappealing feminazi.

Even at the age of 12 I knew boys who, once finding out about feminism, mocked it. Boys who later tried to dispute the gender wage gap whenever a feminist teacher tried to teach some feminism, and then used that as proof that women are not oppressed whatsoever. Boys who went on to bring up male rapes, male suicides, male custody rights whenever a feminist issue was discussed.

But what shocks me even more is when women pretend misogyny doesn't exist. Women who say they're not feminists and instead go "I'm an egalitarian" or "I don't think feminism is needed anymore." Misogyny that is so insidious, so all encompassing, that the very victims of it are the one's who most vehemently hold it up.

So what explains this phenomenon? Why is misogyny not as loaded a term a racism, homophobia, transphobia? Why are careers never over because a man is a misogynist, never mind because he's a rapist? Why do most people seem to have this huge blind spot when it comes to the world we live in?

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[–]marmalade 28 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 0 fun29 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it really is just too painful for many libfems to accept, as has been said by others before. They don't want to accept that many of their male compatriots and those that they encounter every day might be part of thd problem, so they lash out at radical and gender critial feminists for daring to point it out.

[–]writerlylesbian 25 insightful - 2 fun25 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I think the vast majority of women cope with their lives by carrying around a huge load of cognitive dissonance. This basically allows them to function and get through a life that might otherwise be unbearable. The problem is, that load of cognitive dissonance also prevents them from ever really seeing what the issues are, and how to actually fight effectively. Since women like this are also constantly gaslighting themselves, it also means that they're very susceptible to other forms of gaslighting too - societal gaslighting, manipulation from partners or family members, and so on.

This is why I think women have fallen for the transactivist movement so easily. It's not just female socialisation kicking in (empathy for a supposedly oppressed minority); it's also because women spend so much time lying to themselves that they can't see truth from lies very well.

Men know this about women, and take advantage of it all the time.

[–]SameOldBS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think there's a lot of truth in this.

[–]Veneficca 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agree with all of this. Painfully true.

[–]TarshishJupiter 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I heard growing up that feminism had gone too far. My dad complained about not getting promoted because of affirmative action for women. He said if I entered the tech field, I would go far, simply because tech companies were biased toward women.

I didn't want to be seen as feminist because I believed that men and women really were treated equally. Funnily enough, I grew up in a conservative Christian congregation that didn't allow women to preach or be an elder. I just couldn't see the sexism in front of my own nose.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ha, me too. Female pastors aren't allowed in my grandparents' evangelical church. I was totally clueless, and by the time I figured it out, I'd left behind pretending to be religious except on holidays.

[–]chrysthefeminist 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even when female pastors are allowed, all they're doing is worshipping a male "saviour." It's not even worth it.

[–]Britishbulldog 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I’m 21. The misogyny in society isn’t obvious at a young age (Rural, lower middle class upbringing), so it’s easy to deny- and easy for people to claim ‘feminism has gone too far’. When you’re older you only see it if you question WHY with things. Why do I never see women’s football on TV, why do women have to be groomed within an inch of their lives, why are all the powerful people men, etc etc. A lot of people don’t question the world like this.

As for your second point, misogyny is normal for society- it’s ingrained. Racism isn’t (any more), not is homophobia. These things still exist, but they’re not ingrained in the fabric of society. Calling out Steve as a racist is calling out Steve, and nobody else. Calling out John as a mysogynist will lead to serious self-examination by a lot of people who’ll see they’re the same. Calling out John is calling out society itself. And society doesn’t want to change.

[–]RedditHatesLesbians[S] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm 16 so I didn't really think about it from that perspective. I've always questioned these things, mostly from the age when all the girls around me started wearing make up and I just didn't want to. I couldn't be bothered with it and didn't want to have to think about not smudging it constantly, and anyway, boys don't have to wear it so why should I? But these arguments were met with "That's just how girls are," as if every girl is born with a powder brush in her hand. When I asked other girls my age why they started wearing it, they either shrugged awkwardly or said something along the lines of "I enjoy it, it's for me." Maybe it began as a way of seeking Maturity and wanting to grow up, but those same girls began to be almost terrified of going anywhere bare faced. They carried make up everywhere and if they didn't wear it one day they were met with the dreaded, "You look tired today!" The girls who didn't wear it were seen as otherly to the girls who wore a lot of it, and vice versa. The former category is basically not there anymore as time has gone on. And I know it's just make up, but I've never been given a concrete explanation regarding just why it's such a compulsive ritual for women that doesn't reek of sexism.

Long rant about that in particular, but yeah. Interesting point about it being ingrained. It would be a bit like pointing out how many people the British empire killed and their concentration camps to some of the British Empire lovers around here that claim it was Britain at their peak. So contradictory it's easiest to ignore it.

[–]Immortallogic 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you are 16 and realizing all of this, you are WAY ahead of the curve. Kudos to you.

[–]Britishbulldog 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

PREACH. So feel you- particularly re makeup. And everything my mother has said regarding me being an outsider, ignored by boys (because that’s CLEARLY my priority), not being taken seriously etc have all been (so far) proven wrong.

[–]Immortallogic 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I think it's intimately tied with the nucleur family, basic patriarchy, and biology, and it runs super deep, from the beginning of socialization. Most women are male identified and, if they decide to get married or settle down with a man and have kids, they HAVE to accept certain roles and things.

Another part I've come to realize is simply biology. Women are the childbearers and empathetic ones who protect the vulnerable and care. Childbirth and pregnancy often wreck havoc in women's bodies, but that is simply how we've evolved. Men are the aggressors and ones who are more prone to violence. The first step is realizing and accepting that. There are degrees to that and exceptions of course, for both sexes, but that is the reality. That's why women are categorically underappreciated and mothers, especially. That's why rape and sexual assaults often get very light penalties (men are in charge usually). For me, the first part of breaking free of the constraints of being a female was the firm decision not to procreate, because honestly, that's a HUGE portion of it.

Then, learning to unlearn all the things (or most) from socialization and the first terror of realizing what a blatantly sexist world we live in, from movies and shows that show women as shells of people and sex objects, to the very real experience of many women who are truly trapped in terrible relationships with men because they have had kids, or were not brought up to rely on themselves and therefore don't have the sense of independence or backbone to make it alone. The number of horror stories of women who are putting up with alarming things on Reddit are insane, and yet they don't want to leave. Not to say all marriages are like this, but I strongly believe most marriages are unequal to the women (whether or not she's chosen that... And many do). That doesn't mean there can't be love it other things, but it's just the way it is.

I also think that biologically, and exacerbated by socialization, by and large, women are the sex that want to be led. If they didn't, people like us wouldn't be as fringe. Misogyny and sexism and even paternalism is deeply tied to all of this.

And yes, libfem. Obviously. This bullshit about sexualization of self and bdsm and all the rest being EmPoWeRiNg. But we all know that.

[–]BEB 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree with you, in that I think that women, on average, are different, and while a large part of it is socialization, which starts to happen from birth, some of it is innate. Our bodies are built to nurture and the instinct to protect the young seems to be built into our genes. This is I don't really call myself a rad fem or a GC fem - I'm just a plain old feminist. But I believe most of what rad/GC believe, and very much support and will fight for our common goals.

I have some extremely smart, extremely successful female friends, all of whom were fervent supporters of the Equal Rights Amendment, and all of whom had to fight societal misogyny to get to where they are, but when I bring up this issue of how gender ideology is destroying everything women fought for, while outraged, my friends don't really act.

In the meantime, they are outraged about police shootings of black men (as am I) and would have marched with BLM had it not been for COVID - but they're not marching for women. They won't even pick up the phone and call their Congressional representatives, even though I've made it clear what danger women's rights/safety/sports are in.

Even feminists and survivors that they are, they prioritize the civil rights of another group over the human and civil rights of women, even as they know women's rights are under possibly the most dangerous attack ever.

This is why I kind of feel women will never get the rights and respect we deserve: too many women just won't fight. They will fight for others, but for some reason a huge % of women will not fight for ourselves. And again, a huge part of that is socialization, but I think the rest is that most of us don't have the testosterone-fueled rage men have (unless it comes to our kids.)

Just my opinion after traveling a lot (for an American) and being on Earth for many decades...

[–]chrysthefeminist 13 insightful - 7 fun13 insightful - 6 fun14 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

Our bodies are built to nurture and the instinct to protect the young seems to be built into our genes.

I'm female and after a lifetime of exposure to males and their attitudes I'd rather flush male young down a toilet than "protect" them.

[–]BEB 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm by no means saying that ALL females feel that way, it's just that in my experience on average women do tend to be very protective of their young, more so than men, and I think that only part (a very large part) of that is socialization.

We all have very different experiences of life, so I can only speak from mine. I've traveled a lot (again, for an American) and seen the same thing in the parts of the world I've been. I can't think of any place I didn't see it, but I haven't been close to everywhere - I've missed entire continents.

And not to say that I didn't meet a lot of feisty and fierce women, I did. And not to say I don't think women aren't capable of leading a revolution, they have and will. It's just seems harder to motivate women to stand up for themselves than to stand up for others. And again, that's my experience, others will have different ones.

[–]RedditHatesLesbians[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I also don't want children and that's a big reason why. I'm a lesbian so it'll never happen accidentally, but I would never use a sperm donor or adopt or anything like that regardless.

I wonder if lesbians and gay men are the exceptions, in a way? While, sure, some lesbians want biological children, I think that's a small minority

I find it weird how humans have evolved in such a way that pregnancy is so traumatic for women. You watch the labour of other animals and the kids just pop out and begin running 3 minutes later. With humans, our heads are too big and our hips are too narrow. I think people forget just how many women died during childbirth nowadays with modern medicine. Biology is definitely not something to be dismissed. Men needed to be the aggressors when we had to be in such a vulnerable state just to procreate and when our children take such a long time to be self sufficient to any degree. Taken away from our natural environment, those roles play out in different ways. The question then becomes what would a perfect society look like? Equal in every way isn't realistic since we seem innately different in many ways. Men will always be much stronger than women, and men will always seek to dominate. So is equality even possible?

It's interesting how males are seen as the default sex even though women are the ones to procreate, though. Women are the ones with the ability to replicate ourselves, we all start out as female in the womb. Yet women are seen as imperfect men, an idea both in the Bible and in culture as a whole.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wow, you sure do know a lot for someone 16! I don't mean that to sound ageist - after all, 16 is an age of peak intellectual and academic performance and curiosity generally, & there are a lot of knowledgable, learned teenagers today as there were in the past. Still, your comments have struck me as particularly impressive in their breadth and incisiveness. So I jus wanted to say: Brava!

[–]RedditHatesLesbians[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks. I don't think it's ageist at all. Most people are idiots let alone most teenagers, I think it's just a lack of experience/perspective thing. And I'm not exempt from that, I just ask a lot of questions. The more questions I ask the less I realise I know about the world.

[–]NDG 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Most of the “I’m not a feminist” women I know are well-aware that misogyny exists. (Ask any American conservative woman 35+ what she thought about the media’s treatment of Sarah Palin back in 2008.) But they’re also well-aware that, unlike Mr. Rogers, mainstream feminism does not “like them just the way they are.”

They’re against abortion, or at least against some element of the pro- choice movement’s ideal set of abortion laws - they think it should be illegal after twelve weeks, or a minor’s guardians should always be notified. They have strong ties to religions that feminists told them were patriarchal or oppressive. They have stories about feminists shaming them for being stay-at-home moms. They suspect feminists think they’re dumb and brainwashed. They think feminists focus too much on “manspreading” and not enough on serious issues like honor killings or FGM. They see feminism as a clique for upper-middle-class liberals and they don’t want to join.

[–]yishengqingwa666 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

They are misinformed on basically every point and should get a clue.

[–]NDG 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

...and that right there is an example of the attitude that tells them feminism doesn’t want them.

[–]Veneficca 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I know a lot of conservative women like this. It's frustrating because so many of them seem to want the benefits of feminism AND the benefits of benevolent sexism and are never willing to challenge men or examine their own patriarchal complicity. They're happy to point out misogyny when another nation, religion or political party can be blamed, but when it's coming from inside the house? They almost always stay quiet. They want safety, respect and equal pay without the conflict of naming their own men as part of the problem.

That said, I also know women who feel judged about not being "pure" enough for feminism. To them, feminism isn't a place of support and positive change, it's a tribunal that will castigate them for wearing makeup, liking the wrong musicians and films, wanting to be a SAHM, etc. Or they read about sex-positive feminism and recoil because they don't see prostitution, porn or casual sex as good for women. I think a lot of women aren't even sure what a feminist platform is these days.

[–]NDG 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Honestly, my experience with feminism has never been about “support and positive change” for all women. It’s been mostly of the Ti-Grace Atkinson “sisterhood kills, mostly sisters” variety.

[–]penelopekitty 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If they think that they haven't bothered to do even the most basic research.

[–]NDG 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My offline encounters with self-declared feminists have almost all been with the “judgmental tribunal” types. Don’t dismiss other people’s experience as ignorance, please.

As for “what feminism is,” there are different schools of feminism claiming that totally opposing beliefs are feminist.

[–]penelopekitty 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you look into the history of feminism it's clear what the overall intent was. Today's feminism has been corrupted, people are ignorant of what the history was, and women who identify with men instead of thinking for themselves accept the smear campaign without question.

Just because a woman calls herself a feminist doesn't mean she is. Her actions are the determining factor. If people actually understood that the aim of feminism was to liberate women from patriarchy we wouldn't have so many divisions and so much ignorance around the subject.

[–]jet199 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They don't listen to men. Men tell you what they really think all the time. Too many women want to believe men think like women no matter what men tell them, maybe they are just pretending to look hard for their mates, maybe they've just been hurt in the past. It's too comfortable a world view to let go of.

[–]jkfinn 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, radical feminism, is really the only politics around that is "egalitarian."

But the real problem is that "politics" is forbidden. What passes for "politics," or the political, are its fragments, not its whole. Sexism, racism, and classism are not in any way separate but are all central to what politics means which is a complete understanding of power's workings and a committed resistance to that. The reason "misogyny" is overlooked is because those who insist on it (radical feminists) stand against all the -isms, including militarism, and because they put women first... out of pure necessity because all other political formations place them last. Thus women's erasure from politics and from history.

[–]Immortallogic 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't forget good ol' capitalism!

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe it's just too painful. Growing up, I was told that boys and girls were equal. I believed it wholeheartedly. I "passed" as a boy so I was insulated from the worst of female socializaton. I was a happy little kid. Before middle school, it felt like the world was safe, grown ups were good, and bad things only happened to people "out there" somewhere. Not in my small town.

I wasn't aware of porn or rape culture or the entrenched belief in the sexual and social inferiority of women and girls. When I became aware of those things, it was like the rug was pulled out from under me. I think many women don't want to accept that they were deceived, so they cling to their belief in equality despite all evidence to the contrary.

[–]SharpTomorrow 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

5/10 years ago everybody started to claim they were "feminists" including a bunch of males. The same people that profusely use the "karen" meme, claimed that porn was empowering and believe in gender theory. That's the problem. "libfem" isn't feminism. Many women on the left have been fed some fake version of feminism.

[–]vitunrotta 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

THIS. Was about to make the exact same comment. I myself opted out of the so-called liberal "feminism" entirely because it started to sound like utter nonsense (which is is, consequently). I also didn't have the patience to tell everyone that while I still thought I was some sort of a feminist, I wasn't one of those feminists. Over time, I just stopped using the word feminist altogether because I felt libfems had robbed the entire movement, using it as an umbrella for absolutely every and any problem: no more a women's movement, it was just a random mishmash of everything. Not a day went by without hearing of their bizarre antics. It was embarrassing and I did not want to be lumped together with these morons (pardon my French).

I only begun calling myself a feminist again very recently, upon learning from radical feminism (that was painted as some terrible surf-and-TERF of old witches that wanted to burn all men at a stake and whatnot in the libfem circles). If anyone asks, I still refer to myself mostly as an egalitarian. A lot of people are wholly unaware that there ARE sensible feminists still out there, but it's too tiring to explain the differences.

Liberal/intersectional feminism: truly the most backwards, idiotic movement I've seen in a long time. BIG thanks to you guys for making feminism look stupid and useless, talking about preferred pronouns and unisex bathrooms, while simultaneously spitting on working class women and making unholy alliances with ultra-misogynist religions. Great job! /s

[–]vitunrotta 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just to try to stick to the subject a bit: never did I think misogyny did not exist, quite the opposite. It was simply very clear that liberal feminism had no interest in ACTUAL feminism. Instead, they hopped on the train of porn positivity and kinks and "genderqueers" and TWAW and whatnot.

So, I'd wager that for many (perhaps especially in Europe) the word "feminism" was tarnished by libfems, but that doesn't mean people aren't actual feminists still. A lot of us are still hiding though, because we don't wish to be lumped together with a crowd of people who are actually first in line to deny biological women are a THING etc.

[–]SaidOverRed 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was gonna say, "what are you smoking" but then I saw you said you were 16. You're being treated differently because you are a child. Once you grow up, you'll see more things. Like, say Austrialian government officials calling for resignations over perceived "misogyny". Or a hundred other examples (that UK trade official, anyone Kathy Newman attacks, etc)

[–]Oneofthesesigns 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are two sides of misogyny: benevolent and hostile. A woman participating in benevolent misogyny may be shielded from harsher aspects of hostile misogyny. Also misogyny is a 'in for an inch, in for a mile'. Once someone has accepted or started excusing smaller behaviors that are easy to brush off or ignore, it then becomes easier to ignore larger, more egregious behaviors.

[–]LesbiSilly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because women like myself didn't want to think we did not face sexism. I pretended that it didn't apply to me and didn't think I experienced any. But I was wrong.

[–]MonstrousRegiment 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To most people, to human cultures at large, female subordination is "natural", thus invisible.