Is there really any room for Gay men to speak up on Gender Critical?

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.GenderCritical

As a gay feminine nonconforming man who listens to a lot of Gender critical talk that is mostly discussed by women for obvious reason, while I find myself agreeing with like 99% of what is being said by these women brave enough to speak out and share their perspectives which I genuinely do think is doing a lot of good for women, I feel a sense of not really belonging because I'm not a woman. Like I feel like I shouldn't be saying anything (in my case commenting) on these topics because I'm not a woman.

But a lot of the time it does kinda get lonely because anytime I ever tried to talk about Gender critical stuff on the man side, mostly the Gay sections, no one wants to listen to me. They think I'm crazy or I'm just being hateful to be hateful or a new one I get, "Spend too much time listening to Terfs and not living in reality". And even when it comes to some other self-proclaimed Gender Critical gay men, I notice that they are only ever really critical of AGP men but usually give HSTS a pass just because they aren't the ones who usually harass women and while it's true that they don't, I genuinely don't believe that makes them anymore "True Trans" than the AGPs. But when I say this, they just shrug it off and inside I'm just growing aggravating that even they are refusing to be critical of the Trans ideology as a whole. Like to me, maybe it's because I'm a feminine man who actually looks it as well (I get called "Maam" or "Miss" quite a bit when I'm out in public) and to me, I've had to live my life experiencing all that society can express towards a guy like myself and how the bad can definitely tear you down and so to me, when I look at HSTS, I jsut see effeminate Gay men who let society beat them down which made them develop Gender dysphoria and coerced them to transition to be seen as "acceptable" and it truly breaks my heart but yet whenever I list off reasons on what makes an effeminate Gay man transition, I'm looked at like I'm crazy...

I dunno, I'm just feeling a little lost lately. But this one especially got to me when I was watching a recent Meghan Murphy interview she had with Abigail Shrier and I found myself nodding in agreement but yet deep down I felt like I shouldn't really be adding to what they have to say because I'm not a woman.

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[–]FlickingMarvellous 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

There’s s/GenderCriticalGuys and s/LGBDropTheT, you might find more gay men there.

I think there’s a mixture of views about whether you’re “allowed” here, personally I’m ok with it but other women are less keen.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Oh I didn't know that GenderCriticalGuys was brought onto this site as well, I just thought it was this sub and LGBDropTheT. Thanks for the heads up! But yeah even LGBDropTheT, I see the sentiment that I mentioned in my post where a lot of these gay men and lesbians tend to not be as critical on HSTS and I just find that to be really unsatisfactory because they're essentially picking and choosing when you should be critical of the ideology as a whole if you're claiming to be critical of gender...

[–]BEB 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

s/LGBDroptheT mods have stated at least a few times that it's not a gender critical space. They seem to almost kind of dislike TERFs in their own way, though they do seem to understand that we share a lot of the same concerns and are sometimes sympathetic.

I don't mind men here if they're respectful and mostly lurk, but I'm not the boss and other women do seem to mind, so I don't know what to tell you beyond that I have appreciated your contributions so far.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

You're probably right about the LGBDropTheT where it's not necessarily Gender Critical but just genuinely wanting the "T" out of the association with LGB but still thinking trans is an actual thing... Which just makes me even more depressed as a GNC gay man because it's like... All the red flags and signs are there about why Trans ideology is nonsensical but they refuse to even acknowledge it, But anyway that's a totally different topic.

But I do appreciate the feedback and support. I really want to support women in this fight against TRAs but I feel like dismantling Trans ideology altogether would help as well.

[–]BEB 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

s/LGBDroptheT thinks that trans ideology is nonsensical, but I think the mods don't want GC feminist "cooties" (slang from the 1970s that kind of jokingly meant "germs")

Plus, like you said, s/LGBDroptheT mods seem more invested in supporting gender fantasies and fantasists than s/gendercritical, where we call it all out as BS.

Anyway, I don't think anyone yet has called you out for being on here, so maybe other posters also don't mind. I myself feel very strongly that we need men in this fight, partially because women just aren't listened to, but I do understand women who want to have spaces like this where it's only women discussing the issues.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I frequent both of those subs and notice that, as both you and Kai mentioned that the LGBDtT seem more accepting of HTST even though they are "Drop the T".

Also a side note...In Drop the T, I've began noticing more that they tend to give us bisexuals the short end of the stick, as though we're part of the TQ+.

So, I come here to GC often times when I need a break from the other place.

Sometimes GC is a bit split too---for example, I saw some GC people okay with called Rose of Dawn and Blaire White by female pronouns despite them both being male. Though...I wonder if those people are merely lurkers commenting and not necessarily GC people?

Luckily, most times GC isn't split!

[–]BEB 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think that a lot of people on here are new to all of this GC stuff and some are young, so have been indoctrinated at school to go along with the gender madness.

I also think that the mods here on s/gendercritical are very good, because they aren't too strict and allow newbies to explore without being harsh on them. Thanks, mods!!!!

[–]PeakingPeachEater 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ah, I see! That makes sense. I remember stumbling upon Gender Critical a couple years back when I was "peaking" but not completely because I was a fan of Blaire White in particular and thought he had common sense and called him a "she".

Then I saw through the veil and REALLY peaked.

Yes, it's nice that the mods aren't too hard on us here(I still consider myself 'new' and learning since I used to lurk and hardky ever did comment)! And we get to see different perspectives. I was a bit confused at first in regards to how GC viewed people like BW, haha.

I see posts by you and MarkTwainic and learn quite a bit about GC! :) You gals are like the OGs here in the GC sub.

[–]BEB 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I only lurked on r/gendercritical from the time it had around 5000 (maybe even 3000?) until the end. I do feel like MarkTwaniac and I have perspective, because of our ages we have lived feminism since the 1970s and so know what women are losing today.

I think it's great that there is this forum so that we, and other women who have fought in the trenches, can impart some of our knowledge and experiences to younger women. So I'm very happy that you are here! Bring friends!

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

HSTS were the reason why T was even added in the first place. New "T" means absolutely different thing, same as new Q. So they want to "drop that T". And I am, actually, a friend with a dosen of HSTS who are more than 20 years after transition, however - all of them are GC, so I am fine there.

bisexuals the short end of the stick, as though we're part of the TQ+

It is collateral damage. As they took bisexual "sexuality is fluid" and weaponised it. For lesbians it is because bisexuals saying they are lesbians and then jumping out to sleep with men. And for gays - bisexual men is in general a social stigma.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

HSTS were the reason why T was even added in the first place. New "T" means absolutely different thing, same as new Q. So they want to "drop that T". And I am, actually, a friend with a dosen of HSTS who are more than 20 years after transition, however - all of them are GC, so I am fine there.

What are your HSTS friends thoughts on gender critical? How do they and you define being gender critical? Just want to understand better from a different view point.

For me, to be gender critical is to be critical of the entire gender ideology. One cannot simply change his/her sex because he/she feel like the opposite sex. Sex is not a feeling, it's biology. There are no ladybrains/dudebrains. Whenever a trans person is asked "how do you feel like the opposite sex"? They usually list off stereotypes from one or the other gender role(ex. A woman loves cars, technology, sports, etc then she "feels" like a man. Then the reverse of a man loves makeup, fashion, shopping, etc then he "feels" like a woman.)

So...if a HSTS male tells me to call him a woman but claims to be gendercritical, then that's hypocritical. But if the HSTS male is okay being called a man...then he's most likely not trans at all and not HSTS but just a gender non-conforming man.

I detransitioned YEARS ago and thought I was same-sex attracted ONLY during that time. At the time, I wish I would be reborn a boy, hated the skin I was in and wish could rip it off, didn't like being forced into the stereotypical gender role set for girls/woman and wanted to seem "normal" by becoming a boy(which by the gender idealogy would make me "straight" if I liked girls and transitioned to a boy).

It is collateral damage. As they took bisexual "sexuality is fluid" and weaponised it. For lesbians it is because bisexuals saying they are lesbians and then jumping out to sleep with men. And for gays - bisexual men is in general a social stigma.

Yeah, it sucks that the TRAs did that to our sexuality...Bisexuals aren't commonly attracted to trans(mixed sex characteristics) unless they are the small percentage of trans inclusive bisexuals(or trans exclusive bisexuals).

I don't understand the sleeping part. We always get stereotyped for leaving a straight or gay relationship for the same/opposite sex and that we're untrustworthy cheaters. But...that happens in any relationship---the gay person or straight person might be the one to leave instead.

Yeah...Most times people say that bisexual men are secretly gay so they get the reverse treatment. Most straight women don't want to be with them for that reason.

Regardless, people can date who they want to. If they don't want to date a bisexual, that's completely fine. It's understandable if they feel they just can't relate to bisexuals because each of us(heterosexuals, homosexuals, and bisexuals) have different experiences and some of us prefer to be with others who are understanding of where we're coming from and can relate. It's just the stereotypes that are terrible.

I'm multi-racial/mixed race and people have told me specifically things such as "No offense, but I don't find XYZ nor ABC race attracted at all. They're at the bottom of the totem pole. I prefer white people instead, they're the most attractive"---said to me by a former friend who's eastern asian and happens to be gay. We were just having a casual converasation talking about who we like(preference wise, ex. Sporty, blue eyes, funny, etc) and he just had to bring that up and say it like that...My straight friends have commented on my race too but always added "but you're not like the rest of them"--whatever that means...

Edit: I just meant that bisexuals get treated like the above example. We get talked down on and are expected to take it...

So, that's where I'm coming from.

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So...if a HSTS male tells me to call him a woman but claims to be gendercritical, then that's hypocritical. But if the HSTS male is okay being called a man...then he's most likely not trans at all and not HSTS but just a gender non-conforming man.

Depends on a person. Most just want to be a woman, and trying to be a woman (unlike AGP transgenders without surgeries), almost all of them are married on a man, and transitioned before starting dating with them, mostly married on bisexual men, sometimes on gay men, one is married on straight man, but that man is delusional and tries to ignore the past of his "wife". They are all 20+ years after surgeries. Some become transsexuals because of social pressure on being gay (I think in reality majority did, as dysphoria is mostly caused by social pressure, and almost always happening to men, especially gay men).

Their gender critical views are that they would like to remove the gender all together and do not believe that it is something that should be promoted by TRA or anyone. I think they are just regreting that gender stereotypes made them what they are, at least for most of them. They are called women by a similar to current UK Equality Act in our country - after living 3-5 years "as woman in society", after being long on hormones, after bottom surgery, "passing enough" and big commitment - only then in legal documents sex is changed, however in medical documents sex is not changed for obvious reasons (different pills and injections have different effects on bodies, and some pills are fine for men, but bad for women because of reproductive system). They are still calling themself a woman legally, but agreeing that they are males, and agreeing it is hypocritical, however, our language is not providing other options and our laws working like that. None of them believing in "feeling" as opposite sex as well, and no one of them is "feeling" as the opposite sex or "understanding" opposite sex, they just "want" to be one. In /s/GCdebatesQT moderator is GC transsexual with similar views, but less GC than my friends, so you can ask him (better use "her" there or no pronouns) in details. That person seems to be accepting that this is harming women, and mostly want to help women - and started being like that only because of TRA claims and gender ideology becoming prominent. I think that saidit administrator is transwoman as well, but very pro free speech and diversity of opinions, and seems to not like TRA much, but okay with GC.

I don't understand the sleeping part. We always get stereotyped for leaving a straight or gay relationship for the same/opposite sex and that we're untrustworthy cheaters. But...that happens in any relationship---the gay person or straight person might be the one to leave instead.

As far as I know, it happens too often with lesbians - woman is dating with man or married on a man, but is allowed to sleep with other women by her man "as sex without penis is not real sex, and it is sexy", so they are saying they are single and lesbian, going on a date with woman, and then saying "sorry, we can't continue, it was all good, but I am back to my boyfriend". I am not sure if it is common experience, but most lesbians I know had such experience. And, I think, it has to do with porn too, as "lesbian" tag is most popular in the world, but it is often showing bisexual women (often even just straight) having sex and then they are joined by a man.

And "bisexual" is more "sexy", so some straight women are saying they are bisexual or lesbian to access men. Sexualization of women is forcing women to do crazy stuff.

My lesbian friend was complaining me about dating apps too, that there often either transwomen or "m+f bisexual couple searching lesbian for threesome" and very rarely actually lesbians to be found.

Obviously it is not always the case, most likely it is most often not the case, but it happens enough to create such prejudice towards bisexual women.

Yeah...Most times people say that bisexual men are secretly gay so they get the reverse treatment. Most straight women don't want to be with them for that reason.

Not just that. Bisexual men in general are seen like not manly enough and not gay enough at same time, and as some abomination and "it is not suiting man to be indecisive", so no one want to have anything with them.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I see where you are coming from now. I had a discussion with others about gender critical trans persons.

They mentioned that trans can be gender critical if, for example they know and admit they are born their sex.

So taking a trans male for example, if he refer to himself as a "transwoman" to differentiate from biological woman, and also admits he was born male, he is gender critical, though not necessarily a feminist gender critical.

What confused me was the pronouns which is where I was iffy. If they know they are male, but use female pronouns, isn't that feeding into it? But someone mentioned yeah it does bite BUT there are languages that don't even have gendered pronouns or they simply ommit he/she pronouns like Japanese.

So that made sense too...Just different degrees of gender critical.

Also that sucks that your friends were pressured to transition...I detransitioned but did not go through with surgery/hormones. I honestly think the TRA movement preys on people in vulnerable positions like us(your friends & myself)---because we want to be seen as "normal". When I was deciding to transition, I thought I was exclusively attracted to the same sex, so in a sense, if I became a "boy" that would make me "straight".

It's pretty gross how some people claim to be trans or lesbian to sleep with men. And it does suck that there are some bisexual woman who fetishize lesbians...One of my coworkers claims to be pansexual---but that's just a fancy term for bisexual---she's had real relationships with men and sleep around mostly with women and only had 1 real relationship with a woman but generally...just likes to sleep with them, her words not mine.

I think she may be a bit of a political bisexual---when she's (white american lady) mad at the "EVIL WHITE MEN!@!+#!" she says she prefers women...(she's engaged to a white man right now tho lol).

I really wish there were more visibility for bi men. Straight women don't treat them good(even on media, they make jokes about bi men being gay and "gross"). That sucks that they are getting crap from all sides around.

Edit: spelling

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You're probably right about the "GC Feminist cooties" but it's just so dumb because you can't pick and choose implying that Effeminate Gay Men and Super butch Lesbians are the "true trans" when the concept is just as ridiculous on them as it is on AGPs and that it really is just re-packaged conversion therapy.

Anyway, I don't think anyone yet has called you out for being on here, so maybe other posters also don't mind. I myself feel very strongly that we need men in this fight, partially because women just aren't listened to, but I do understand women who want to have spaces like this where it's only women discussing the issues.

And I totally understand that. I support women brave enough to speak out against this but like for example, I was watching a WOLF meetup panel and while they were all making good points, when it got to the Q&A section one of the audience members commented thinking that their stance against "Transwomen" seems very unsympathetic and I noticed that the guest panelists took a bit to address that comments talking among themselves before giving their answers and the answers were good but i really felt that someone like myself could've helped add to that comment assuring them that it's not about hate or even providing more info on what can make a man think he's a woman that isn't for Autogynephelic reasons.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think WoLF is so used to being on the defensive, because they get attacked so much, including by other women, that its now second-nature for them to hesitate before answering a tricky question.

I feel bad for people with gender dysphoria, when it's true gender dysphoria, same as I'd feel for anyone else with a distressing mental illness (don't know what the term is now), but when their demands affect my rights, well, no.

The difference between trans and women is that trans can simply change their appearance and their oppression disappears. And their oppression primarily comes from males, so to ask that women give up everything so that males can appear they way they claim to feel - NO.

Trans can work on other males to accept them, they can't take our rights.

Beyond trans activists, there is no other "oppressed" minority group that I can think of that demands another oppressed group's rights. But the bottom line (and I think this is a standard point of US law) is that trans rights end where mine begin.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I feel bad for people with gender dysphoria, when it's true gender dysphoria, same as I'd feel for anyone else with a distressing mental illness (don't know what the term is now), but when their demands affect my rights, well, no.

And I get that but I find that people don't even ask "why". Like why do these people find they are "born in the wrong body" and more often than not, I guarantee it's because they did something that broke a gender norm and they got some negative reaction or feeling for it because in the grand scheme of things, gender conformity is the majority.

The difference between trans and women is that trans can simply change their appearance and their oppression disappears. And their oppression primarily comes from males, so to ask that women give up everything so that males can appear they way they claim to feel - NO.

Agreed but Trans are not women in any way shape or form, they are just effemiante men (either effeminate homosexuals = HSTS, Autogynephelic fetish men, or just genuine hetero men who just like to be effeminate without it being a sexual thing).

Trans can work on other males to accept them, they can't take our rights.

Agreed. Effeminate men need to work with masculine men to get to a point where the masculine majority of men stop judging and ridiculing feminine men in the way that feminine women for the most part do not degrade and put down masculine women.

Beyond trans activists, there is no other "oppressed" minority group that I can think of that demands another oppressed group's rights. But the bottom line (and I think this is a standard point of US law) is that trans rights end where mine begin.

Right

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Have you heard of that mental illness in which the sufferer wants to cut off body parts? That's akin to what I think people who have genuine gender dysphoria suffer from. So it might not be treatable with therapy. And again, only a tiny fraction of the population have real gender dysphoria, the rest probably are more of what you're saying.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sure but again, I just don't buy that someone is born with Gender Dysphoria and I guarantee you that if people actually asked these people to explain why they feel they were born in the wrong body, the red flags will be obvious where if the person is honest, they will share a story or arbitrary interest that aligns with the oppsite gender role (Wanting to wear makeup or dresses but being told they couldn't because they're a boy for examkple and I'm talking adolescent years here mind you).

[–]PeakingPeachEater 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hey, I see you around sometimes in both GC and LGBDtT.

I noticed that too in particular about the Drop the T. They are not fond of the AGP but are fine with HTST(ex. Blaire White) which seems contradictory...

There's also not a lot of talk about gender non-conforming people in the LGB as much unless it's related to the T where they are fetishing the opposite sex and not so much us...(L, G, or B).

Gender nonconformity seems a bit more accepting in GC too, and talked about as well.

And lastly, I find the discussions here a bit more interesting...in LGBDtT, it seems mostly like shit posts lol. It can be pretty funny sometimes, but hardly any of it is deep talk like here. And...there's some infighting I've noticed in particular between the LGB...particularly, from a B female perspective, it feels like they treat us like the TQ+...

Off topic but did your (younger?) brother understand where you are coming from in a GC perspective?

Edit: fixed spelling/grammer a bit.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices it. It's truly frustrating because if you're gonna claim to be critical of gender, you should be critical of the "gender theory" as a whole but I think the issue is that a lot of these gay men and lesbians though mostly gay men are not nonconforming in appearance so they don't see how the Trans ideology also affects effeminate guys, I'm living proof of it personally because the amount of negative attention I get for being myself is pretty crushing at times, especially when the comments start rolling in on how I'm "trans in denial" or similar sentiments just because I'm a non-masculine guy both in personality and appearance.

Gender nonconformity seems a bit more accepting in GC too, and talked about as well.

Yeah I see that GC does talk about gender nonconformity, mostly on women for the obvious but still, it's great to just have the topic brought up somewhere.

Off topic but did your (younger?) brother understand where you are coming from in a GC perspective?

He's actually my fraternal twin so we're the same age haha. But no I don't think he did. We're talking again but we just don't talk about it and we actually recently talked about the current Blaire White scandal of him lying about that Trans athlete and I just tried to take the Posie Parker approach by instead of calling Blaire White "he" or "she", I just called them by "they/them" or his name. I'm just gonna wait until I make my YouTube video where I express why I think Transgenderism is not real because I'll be able to lay out my reasoning in a more structured way.

[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Kai, you've made many posts and started threads on this sub that IMO have led to a great deal of interesting, lively discussion.

What's more, I think having you here has caused info and perspectives to be posted on this sub that otherwise wouldn't find its way here - and which, again IMO, might well have provided valuable insight to many of the women who read it. Again this is just my opinion, but I find that some women make a lot of assumptions about gay male sexuality, culture and politics that seem a tad naive and starry-eyed, and which are not necessarily grounded in fact. This seems to be coz many women don't seem to have actually spent much/any time in the flesh-and-blood company of gay men, or if they have they haven't had the frank sorts of discussions with gay men that were more customary in the 70s and 80s - discussions that became a necessary matter of life and death for all of us as the AIDS crisis became full-blown from the mid-80s on.

Personally, I've enjoyed the exchanges we've had here, Kai. And interacting with you has given me the opportunity to share some of the info I've learned over the years that otherwise might not come up.

For example, I recall we had a good, info-packed discussion about the ways non-Western cultures regard and have attempted to deal with/regulate/ring-fence male and female homosexuality - and about the special third categories some countries and cultures such as Thailand, India/Pakistan and Samoa have devised as a box for men who come off as overtly homosexual.

In that discussion, I was able to correct a commonly-stated myth, which is that in Western countries like the UK, homosexuality used to be illegal, and that it remains illegal in many countries today - and in some places, like Shia Iran, homosexuality is punishable by death. But, in fact, even in the most draconian legal systems, such as the Sharia compliant one in place in Iran since 1979, it's usually not homosexuality that's prohibited and punished, it's specific homosexual acts - which was the case in the UK too. Coz even legal systems based on strict fundamentalist religions tend to distinguish between desiring and doing.

Another reason I am glad for your input here is that you've really caused me to do a lot of thinking about just what is meant by "femininity" and "effeminacy."

Normally, I wouldn't spend any time thinking about what's "feminine" or "masculine" coz those are not concerns of most people who came of age in the second wave of feminism as I did and played around with androgyny in the "gender bending" 70s, 80s and 90s and have spent our lives rejecting sex stereotypes and sexism and trying as much as possible to question and dismantle traditional sex roles.

But clearly "masculinity" and "femininity" are matters that many especially young people today seem very fixated on, and since these concepts are central to the gender mania that's become all the rage, I'm glad - and grateful - you've prompted me to think more deeply about these notions.

If you recall from our last discussion about people like Marilyn Peter Robinson, Pete Burns and Miranda Yardley, we sorta came to the realization that you and I seem to have a very different idea of what "femininity" means, looks like and consists of - and I actually have no idea what exactly you mean when you say you are a "feminine nonconforming man" and you speak of "effeminate men."

It's not that I doubt the veracity of your description of yourself and the other men you're speaking of, it's just that I've grown confused about the specifics of what being a "feminine nonconforming man" or "effeminate man" actually involves in your definition: looks? clothing and footwear? hairstyle? use of makeup & ways of grooming? gait? high voice? gestures/mannerisms such as eyelash and hand fluttering? being dramatic? interests and hobbies? personality traits? emotional lability? level of empathy? cognitive patterns? preferences for what you do with other men in bed? dislike of getting dirty? fear of mice, spiders and such? a loathing for macho sports? feelings that you're not like other guys?

I'd like to discuss this with you more, coz I'm starting to think "feminine" and "effeminate" might not be the right words to describe whatever it is...

I am only speaking for myself, but I'd miss having you post here.

If this sub is for gender critical feminists or gender critical women only, then I think the name should say that. I always assumed it was for GC people of both sexes, but maybe I've misunderstood. Can anyone fill me in?

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I do appreciate the back and fourths we've had and I totally forgot to address your other comment, it's been a long week lol. But yeah when we were talking about how we view femininity. To answer your question, all I mean when I say a "Feminine nonconforming man" is just a man who doesn't go out of his way to look masculine. I just found a good example of such a guy even though he now is deluded in thinking he's a woman but from like 2016-2019 he was just presenting as a non-masculine man.

So I mean take this man here for example. If you saw this man out in public, do you think he looks like the epitome of masculinity? That's more or less where I'm coming from. He clearly doesn't have an interest in a masculine look and the opposite of masculine is feminine. I feel with femininity, it's both a look and sense of feeling. Again I know our views will differ since you were around in the 1970s and 1980s when some men, especially in the entertainment industry started breaking away from the rigid expectation of what men had to dress like in say the 1940s-1950s but I just hope what I'm saying makes at least a little more sense.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Glad you responded. I thought (erroneously as it turns out) you no longer wanted to engage with me.

So I mean take this man here for example. If you saw this man out in public, do you think he looks like the epitome of masculinity? That's more or less where I'm coming from. He clearly doesn't have an interest in a masculine look and the opposite of masculine is feminine.

The guy whose photo you showed is, IMO, of course NOT "the epitome of masculinity." But I don't think think he looks "feminine" either. Males who are "unmanly" are not automatically somehow female.

I disagree that that the opposite of masculine is feminine. And I can't help but notice that in your formulation of these ideas/aesthetics, you seem to assume that what is obviously male is the norm - and anything deviating from the male norm is shunted off into the feminine/female category.

I hope you don't leave this sub, as I genuinely look forward to our future exchanges. I have come to feel fond and motherly towards you!

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well see I'm saying "feminine", not "female". I don't think femininity defines female because if it did, we wouldn't have "Tomboys" or "Butch" lesbians. I genuinely believe that women are defined by their sex (and this included intersex females too like those born with Triple X syndrome or Tetrasomy X Syndrome). How they decide to style themselves is just decoration whether it be more masculine leaning, feminine leaning, or a mix of both.

you seem to assume that what is obviously male is the norm - and anything deviating from the male norm is shunted off into the feminine/female category.

Not at all. For example guys who aren't as rigidly gruff and masculine but yet still have a modicum of masculine aura about them (in the conforming way), I don't think that automatically makes them feminine. Honestly I hate to use this phrase but I feel like Masculinity and Feminine is a spectrum scale. on the far left end you have feminine, on the far right end you have masculine and then you have androgyny in the middle which is the mixture of both. Back to the guy I showed you, it's clear that he likes feminine fashion.

But okay maybe I should ask you how you would define this man or others like him. If you don't consider his sense of style feminine then what would you consider it?

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I actually would not call that as feminine style or that he is looking too feminine. For me "masculine" and "feminine" is more about actual body (mostly face).

In general for me "femininity" is "something more usual for female body" and "masculinity" is "something more usual for male body". Like bigger muscular woman will be "more masculine", and smaller smooth man will be "more feminine". And I would not attach those terms to clothing choices or with some social constructs (because in different societies they are different, same thing can be "masculine" in USA, but "feminine" here, like for example we have big muscular women in villages and factories, it is pretty often here for women to have very short or "boys" haircut or clothing, eg: https://i.imgur.com/PMUQUW9.png for younger women, women at age 30-40 and after 50 often go like this https://i.imgur.com/ROty2n9.png , or even in movies https://i.imgur.com/EaNdMmw.png, and it is still considered to be feminine, and not "butch" like it would be in USA). I think I may call some behaviour as "masculine" or "feminine" too, but only in extreme cases or as satire, like if transwoman is making threats of rape and applying physical strenght, I will say "how feminine of you".

I would say more about "he is wearing cloths that women used to wearing in our society". Or just "wearing women's clothing", while "women's" in quotation marks. And comparing to that guy, you was looking much more feminine (at least on photo you posted in LGBDropTheT one time) with "men's clothing".

I am actually very supportive for such clothing becomes standart for men as "just regular cloth some men can wear". During hot summers I really love to wear kilt-like skirts and top, and roman-looking toga. And they are clearly made for men, without curves and stuff, even thought it is basically just a skirt and a dress "made for men's body". And I am wearing them mostly because it is hot and I hate to wear shorts, while in such clothing it is super comfortable, and it looks decently good for my taste.

For reference: my face is very feminine, more round, with small jaw bones, I have very small adam's apple, my hands and feet size are small, I have natural huge long eyelashes and thin eyebrowes. I have calm slighy high pitched voice. I was metalhead and since often having long hair (for some reason remembered glam rock, when men were wearing women's clothing, make up and glitters as a form of protest). After father died, for around 10 years I was raised in exclusively female surroundings (we went to small village, where only other people living were few old women, and I went with mother and grandmother), and I was in female kindergarned as well (kindergarden was not female-only, but it happened that there were only girls in my group and only women nannies) - so big chunk of my development I had "female socialization" (quotation mark for obvious reasons), as I was getting same treatment as everyone around, no one wanted to be bothered with making me special treatment. I actually loved dolls and still collecting them. During puberty I had problems with testosterone not being craeted in needed amounts, so I had testosterone injections and was taking testosterone pills for few years, until my body fixed itself. People often confusing me as woman, both in real life and internet.

[–]Britishbulldog 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think we have a few guys on here tbh. Not speaking for everyone, but I’m ok with GC fellas on this sub. Think it can be useful to hear a male perspective- I.e how TRA ideology harms men and boys as well.

[–]diapason 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly, the more diversity in experience/perspective represented on the sub, the better

[–]moody_ape 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

honestly, trans ideology affects both men and women, although it clearly affects women more. i think gay men are 100% allowed to discuss about GC topics. i don't consider GC an exclusively feminist subject, nor a woman's only subject, so i think you should feel free to talk about it here or anyother place you feel safe to do so. i'm pretty sure what you have to add is valuable to the discussion :)

and i'm orry you usually feel lonely in the gay community. but hey! this might be an opportunity to talk to people and help the see the truth. sooner or later people will peak.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Aw thanks. Yeah I do feel a little lonely in the gay community but coming to Gender Critical reminds me that at the very least, there are other people who for sure know the truth about Trans ideology and that helps for sure.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I thought I'd give you a heads up in case this place gets deserted when Ovarit stops being invite-only. It is women-centric, not female only, so you can join if you want. https://www.ovarit.com/o/Announcements/6103/notes-on-who-can-join-ovarit-and-our-culture

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks, I'll keep that bookmarked

[–]fuckupaddams 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I personally welcome it. It makes me feel better knowing that men agree about this stuff too. We sort of need more men agreeing about this stuff.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well that's good to know. I think that ultimately the men who do speak up in support for women on this aren't trying to dominate the conversation but just offer more perspective to add to what women are saying since women were the first to be critical of the ideology.

[–]fuckupaddams 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Unfortunately it would help for men to also be on board, so that gender critical people aren't just painted as being shrill, bitchy women. We need a three-dimensional conversation and full-fledged representation, because though this heavily impacts women, this is really a human issue.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right. I mean the way I see it also is that we gay men in particular, especially feminine gay men can help tackle the HSTS portion of the ideology because one thing I noticed that some people try to use to really excuse the trans ideology is when they point to the HSTS ones who aren't the ones harming women usually which is what makes some people think the trans ideology is legit and consider HSTS to be the "true trans" when really they are just effeminate gay men and that's where people like me can help shed light on why they don't prove that Trans ideology is legit because the HSTS is a flawed thing too where these men "Transition" because of homophobia and self-internalized homophobia.