Is there really any room for Gay men to speak up on Gender Critical?

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.GenderCritical

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[–]BEB 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

s/LGBDroptheT mods have stated at least a few times that it's not a gender critical space. They seem to almost kind of dislike TERFs in their own way, though they do seem to understand that we share a lot of the same concerns and are sometimes sympathetic.

I don't mind men here if they're respectful and mostly lurk, but I'm not the boss and other women do seem to mind, so I don't know what to tell you beyond that I have appreciated your contributions so far.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

You're probably right about the LGBDropTheT where it's not necessarily Gender Critical but just genuinely wanting the "T" out of the association with LGB but still thinking trans is an actual thing... Which just makes me even more depressed as a GNC gay man because it's like... All the red flags and signs are there about why Trans ideology is nonsensical but they refuse to even acknowledge it, But anyway that's a totally different topic.

But I do appreciate the feedback and support. I really want to support women in this fight against TRAs but I feel like dismantling Trans ideology altogether would help as well.

[–]BEB 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

s/LGBDroptheT thinks that trans ideology is nonsensical, but I think the mods don't want GC feminist "cooties" (slang from the 1970s that kind of jokingly meant "germs")

Plus, like you said, s/LGBDroptheT mods seem more invested in supporting gender fantasies and fantasists than s/gendercritical, where we call it all out as BS.

Anyway, I don't think anyone yet has called you out for being on here, so maybe other posters also don't mind. I myself feel very strongly that we need men in this fight, partially because women just aren't listened to, but I do understand women who want to have spaces like this where it's only women discussing the issues.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I frequent both of those subs and notice that, as both you and Kai mentioned that the LGBDtT seem more accepting of HTST even though they are "Drop the T".

Also a side note...In Drop the T, I've began noticing more that they tend to give us bisexuals the short end of the stick, as though we're part of the TQ+.

So, I come here to GC often times when I need a break from the other place.

Sometimes GC is a bit split too---for example, I saw some GC people okay with called Rose of Dawn and Blaire White by female pronouns despite them both being male. Though...I wonder if those people are merely lurkers commenting and not necessarily GC people?

Luckily, most times GC isn't split!

[–]BEB 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think that a lot of people on here are new to all of this GC stuff and some are young, so have been indoctrinated at school to go along with the gender madness.

I also think that the mods here on s/gendercritical are very good, because they aren't too strict and allow newbies to explore without being harsh on them. Thanks, mods!!!!

[–]PeakingPeachEater 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ah, I see! That makes sense. I remember stumbling upon Gender Critical a couple years back when I was "peaking" but not completely because I was a fan of Blaire White in particular and thought he had common sense and called him a "she".

Then I saw through the veil and REALLY peaked.

Yes, it's nice that the mods aren't too hard on us here(I still consider myself 'new' and learning since I used to lurk and hardky ever did comment)! And we get to see different perspectives. I was a bit confused at first in regards to how GC viewed people like BW, haha.

I see posts by you and MarkTwainic and learn quite a bit about GC! :) You gals are like the OGs here in the GC sub.

[–]BEB 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I only lurked on r/gendercritical from the time it had around 5000 (maybe even 3000?) until the end. I do feel like MarkTwaniac and I have perspective, because of our ages we have lived feminism since the 1970s and so know what women are losing today.

I think it's great that there is this forum so that we, and other women who have fought in the trenches, can impart some of our knowledge and experiences to younger women. So I'm very happy that you are here! Bring friends!

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

HSTS were the reason why T was even added in the first place. New "T" means absolutely different thing, same as new Q. So they want to "drop that T". And I am, actually, a friend with a dosen of HSTS who are more than 20 years after transition, however - all of them are GC, so I am fine there.

bisexuals the short end of the stick, as though we're part of the TQ+

It is collateral damage. As they took bisexual "sexuality is fluid" and weaponised it. For lesbians it is because bisexuals saying they are lesbians and then jumping out to sleep with men. And for gays - bisexual men is in general a social stigma.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

HSTS were the reason why T was even added in the first place. New "T" means absolutely different thing, same as new Q. So they want to "drop that T". And I am, actually, a friend with a dosen of HSTS who are more than 20 years after transition, however - all of them are GC, so I am fine there.

What are your HSTS friends thoughts on gender critical? How do they and you define being gender critical? Just want to understand better from a different view point.

For me, to be gender critical is to be critical of the entire gender ideology. One cannot simply change his/her sex because he/she feel like the opposite sex. Sex is not a feeling, it's biology. There are no ladybrains/dudebrains. Whenever a trans person is asked "how do you feel like the opposite sex"? They usually list off stereotypes from one or the other gender role(ex. A woman loves cars, technology, sports, etc then she "feels" like a man. Then the reverse of a man loves makeup, fashion, shopping, etc then he "feels" like a woman.)

So...if a HSTS male tells me to call him a woman but claims to be gendercritical, then that's hypocritical. But if the HSTS male is okay being called a man...then he's most likely not trans at all and not HSTS but just a gender non-conforming man.

I detransitioned YEARS ago and thought I was same-sex attracted ONLY during that time. At the time, I wish I would be reborn a boy, hated the skin I was in and wish could rip it off, didn't like being forced into the stereotypical gender role set for girls/woman and wanted to seem "normal" by becoming a boy(which by the gender idealogy would make me "straight" if I liked girls and transitioned to a boy).

It is collateral damage. As they took bisexual "sexuality is fluid" and weaponised it. For lesbians it is because bisexuals saying they are lesbians and then jumping out to sleep with men. And for gays - bisexual men is in general a social stigma.

Yeah, it sucks that the TRAs did that to our sexuality...Bisexuals aren't commonly attracted to trans(mixed sex characteristics) unless they are the small percentage of trans inclusive bisexuals(or trans exclusive bisexuals).

I don't understand the sleeping part. We always get stereotyped for leaving a straight or gay relationship for the same/opposite sex and that we're untrustworthy cheaters. But...that happens in any relationship---the gay person or straight person might be the one to leave instead.

Yeah...Most times people say that bisexual men are secretly gay so they get the reverse treatment. Most straight women don't want to be with them for that reason.

Regardless, people can date who they want to. If they don't want to date a bisexual, that's completely fine. It's understandable if they feel they just can't relate to bisexuals because each of us(heterosexuals, homosexuals, and bisexuals) have different experiences and some of us prefer to be with others who are understanding of where we're coming from and can relate. It's just the stereotypes that are terrible.

I'm multi-racial/mixed race and people have told me specifically things such as "No offense, but I don't find XYZ nor ABC race attracted at all. They're at the bottom of the totem pole. I prefer white people instead, they're the most attractive"---said to me by a former friend who's eastern asian and happens to be gay. We were just having a casual converasation talking about who we like(preference wise, ex. Sporty, blue eyes, funny, etc) and he just had to bring that up and say it like that...My straight friends have commented on my race too but always added "but you're not like the rest of them"--whatever that means...

Edit: I just meant that bisexuals get treated like the above example. We get talked down on and are expected to take it...

So, that's where I'm coming from.

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So...if a HSTS male tells me to call him a woman but claims to be gendercritical, then that's hypocritical. But if the HSTS male is okay being called a man...then he's most likely not trans at all and not HSTS but just a gender non-conforming man.

Depends on a person. Most just want to be a woman, and trying to be a woman (unlike AGP transgenders without surgeries), almost all of them are married on a man, and transitioned before starting dating with them, mostly married on bisexual men, sometimes on gay men, one is married on straight man, but that man is delusional and tries to ignore the past of his "wife". They are all 20+ years after surgeries. Some become transsexuals because of social pressure on being gay (I think in reality majority did, as dysphoria is mostly caused by social pressure, and almost always happening to men, especially gay men).

Their gender critical views are that they would like to remove the gender all together and do not believe that it is something that should be promoted by TRA or anyone. I think they are just regreting that gender stereotypes made them what they are, at least for most of them. They are called women by a similar to current UK Equality Act in our country - after living 3-5 years "as woman in society", after being long on hormones, after bottom surgery, "passing enough" and big commitment - only then in legal documents sex is changed, however in medical documents sex is not changed for obvious reasons (different pills and injections have different effects on bodies, and some pills are fine for men, but bad for women because of reproductive system). They are still calling themself a woman legally, but agreeing that they are males, and agreeing it is hypocritical, however, our language is not providing other options and our laws working like that. None of them believing in "feeling" as opposite sex as well, and no one of them is "feeling" as the opposite sex or "understanding" opposite sex, they just "want" to be one. In /s/GCdebatesQT moderator is GC transsexual with similar views, but less GC than my friends, so you can ask him (better use "her" there or no pronouns) in details. That person seems to be accepting that this is harming women, and mostly want to help women - and started being like that only because of TRA claims and gender ideology becoming prominent. I think that saidit administrator is transwoman as well, but very pro free speech and diversity of opinions, and seems to not like TRA much, but okay with GC.

I don't understand the sleeping part. We always get stereotyped for leaving a straight or gay relationship for the same/opposite sex and that we're untrustworthy cheaters. But...that happens in any relationship---the gay person or straight person might be the one to leave instead.

As far as I know, it happens too often with lesbians - woman is dating with man or married on a man, but is allowed to sleep with other women by her man "as sex without penis is not real sex, and it is sexy", so they are saying they are single and lesbian, going on a date with woman, and then saying "sorry, we can't continue, it was all good, but I am back to my boyfriend". I am not sure if it is common experience, but most lesbians I know had such experience. And, I think, it has to do with porn too, as "lesbian" tag is most popular in the world, but it is often showing bisexual women (often even just straight) having sex and then they are joined by a man.

And "bisexual" is more "sexy", so some straight women are saying they are bisexual or lesbian to access men. Sexualization of women is forcing women to do crazy stuff.

My lesbian friend was complaining me about dating apps too, that there often either transwomen or "m+f bisexual couple searching lesbian for threesome" and very rarely actually lesbians to be found.

Obviously it is not always the case, most likely it is most often not the case, but it happens enough to create such prejudice towards bisexual women.

Yeah...Most times people say that bisexual men are secretly gay so they get the reverse treatment. Most straight women don't want to be with them for that reason.

Not just that. Bisexual men in general are seen like not manly enough and not gay enough at same time, and as some abomination and "it is not suiting man to be indecisive", so no one want to have anything with them.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I see where you are coming from now. I had a discussion with others about gender critical trans persons.

They mentioned that trans can be gender critical if, for example they know and admit they are born their sex.

So taking a trans male for example, if he refer to himself as a "transwoman" to differentiate from biological woman, and also admits he was born male, he is gender critical, though not necessarily a feminist gender critical.

What confused me was the pronouns which is where I was iffy. If they know they are male, but use female pronouns, isn't that feeding into it? But someone mentioned yeah it does bite BUT there are languages that don't even have gendered pronouns or they simply ommit he/she pronouns like Japanese.

So that made sense too...Just different degrees of gender critical.

Also that sucks that your friends were pressured to transition...I detransitioned but did not go through with surgery/hormones. I honestly think the TRA movement preys on people in vulnerable positions like us(your friends & myself)---because we want to be seen as "normal". When I was deciding to transition, I thought I was exclusively attracted to the same sex, so in a sense, if I became a "boy" that would make me "straight".

It's pretty gross how some people claim to be trans or lesbian to sleep with men. And it does suck that there are some bisexual woman who fetishize lesbians...One of my coworkers claims to be pansexual---but that's just a fancy term for bisexual---she's had real relationships with men and sleep around mostly with women and only had 1 real relationship with a woman but generally...just likes to sleep with them, her words not mine.

I think she may be a bit of a political bisexual---when she's (white american lady) mad at the "EVIL WHITE MEN!@!+#!" she says she prefers women...(she's engaged to a white man right now tho lol).

I really wish there were more visibility for bi men. Straight women don't treat them good(even on media, they make jokes about bi men being gay and "gross"). That sucks that they are getting crap from all sides around.

Edit: spelling

[–]MezozoicGay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I was deciding to transition, I thought I was exclusively attracted to the same sex, so in a sense, if I became a "boy" that would make me "straight".

That reminds me in childhood, there everywhere was "boys are liking girls and girls are liking boys". I liked boys, so in my child's head I was thinking "if girls are liking boys and I am liking boys - I am a girl". So I had this dysphoria for around a year in pretty heavy state and then around two years more in less heavy state. I was around 8-11 years old during that time.

she's had real relationships with men and sleep around mostly with women and only had 1 real relationship with a woman but generally...just likes to sleep with them, her words not mine.

I've heard that multiple time, about women who are dating exclusively men, but going to sleep with women for "real orgasms".

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You're probably right about the "GC Feminist cooties" but it's just so dumb because you can't pick and choose implying that Effeminate Gay Men and Super butch Lesbians are the "true trans" when the concept is just as ridiculous on them as it is on AGPs and that it really is just re-packaged conversion therapy.

Anyway, I don't think anyone yet has called you out for being on here, so maybe other posters also don't mind. I myself feel very strongly that we need men in this fight, partially because women just aren't listened to, but I do understand women who want to have spaces like this where it's only women discussing the issues.

And I totally understand that. I support women brave enough to speak out against this but like for example, I was watching a WOLF meetup panel and while they were all making good points, when it got to the Q&A section one of the audience members commented thinking that their stance against "Transwomen" seems very unsympathetic and I noticed that the guest panelists took a bit to address that comments talking among themselves before giving their answers and the answers were good but i really felt that someone like myself could've helped add to that comment assuring them that it's not about hate or even providing more info on what can make a man think he's a woman that isn't for Autogynephelic reasons.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think WoLF is so used to being on the defensive, because they get attacked so much, including by other women, that its now second-nature for them to hesitate before answering a tricky question.

I feel bad for people with gender dysphoria, when it's true gender dysphoria, same as I'd feel for anyone else with a distressing mental illness (don't know what the term is now), but when their demands affect my rights, well, no.

The difference between trans and women is that trans can simply change their appearance and their oppression disappears. And their oppression primarily comes from males, so to ask that women give up everything so that males can appear they way they claim to feel - NO.

Trans can work on other males to accept them, they can't take our rights.

Beyond trans activists, there is no other "oppressed" minority group that I can think of that demands another oppressed group's rights. But the bottom line (and I think this is a standard point of US law) is that trans rights end where mine begin.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I feel bad for people with gender dysphoria, when it's true gender dysphoria, same as I'd feel for anyone else with a distressing mental illness (don't know what the term is now), but when their demands affect my rights, well, no.

And I get that but I find that people don't even ask "why". Like why do these people find they are "born in the wrong body" and more often than not, I guarantee it's because they did something that broke a gender norm and they got some negative reaction or feeling for it because in the grand scheme of things, gender conformity is the majority.

The difference between trans and women is that trans can simply change their appearance and their oppression disappears. And their oppression primarily comes from males, so to ask that women give up everything so that males can appear they way they claim to feel - NO.

Agreed but Trans are not women in any way shape or form, they are just effemiante men (either effeminate homosexuals = HSTS, Autogynephelic fetish men, or just genuine hetero men who just like to be effeminate without it being a sexual thing).

Trans can work on other males to accept them, they can't take our rights.

Agreed. Effeminate men need to work with masculine men to get to a point where the masculine majority of men stop judging and ridiculing feminine men in the way that feminine women for the most part do not degrade and put down masculine women.

Beyond trans activists, there is no other "oppressed" minority group that I can think of that demands another oppressed group's rights. But the bottom line (and I think this is a standard point of US law) is that trans rights end where mine begin.

Right

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Have you heard of that mental illness in which the sufferer wants to cut off body parts? That's akin to what I think people who have genuine gender dysphoria suffer from. So it might not be treatable with therapy. And again, only a tiny fraction of the population have real gender dysphoria, the rest probably are more of what you're saying.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sure but again, I just don't buy that someone is born with Gender Dysphoria and I guarantee you that if people actually asked these people to explain why they feel they were born in the wrong body, the red flags will be obvious where if the person is honest, they will share a story or arbitrary interest that aligns with the oppsite gender role (Wanting to wear makeup or dresses but being told they couldn't because they're a boy for examkple and I'm talking adolescent years here mind you).

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Previously gender/sex dysphoria was seen mostly in gay boys only at young age, and was dissapearing on its own with age. Almost all transsexuals were homosexual men as well. Maybe there was one girl with dysphoria on every 1000 boys, so it was almost exclusively male problem, mostly GNC or gay men problem. I think it has to do with heterosexual society and big stigma against "not being manly" for boys and men.

I had strong sex dysphoria for around a year in first school classes, and then weak one for a bit longer. It was called different here, something about "disattached from own sex". For me it was mostly because of the fact that everyone was saying "boys like girls and girls like boys", I liked boys, so in my kids brain logic - I was a girl then.

Women only had body dysmorphia at teen and puberty ages.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it has to do with heterosexual society and big stigma against "not being manly" for boys and men.

You nailed it. Because believe me as someone who has lived his life as a non-masculine guy who also doesn't look masculine neither,, I can say that most judgment I ever receive from people is usually men, not really women. And it's because Masculine men really judge and sometimes even get physically threatening towards non-conforming men. I remember having a glass bottle thrown at me when I was walking home from university one day, I've had guys shout derogatory phrases at me in passing, I've had a guy threaten to "beat my ass" when he thought I was a woman and saw that I wasn't (he was trying to cat call me, I said nothing to him), and so on. So I know how it is to be a feminine guy trying to navigate through life and how these negative experiences could definitely make a feminine guy think he's a woman or want to escape this kind of harassment by claiming to be trans.

I had strong sex dysphoria for around a year in first school classes, and then weak one for a bit longer. It was called different here, something about "disattached from own sex". For me it was mostly because of the fact that everyone was saying "boys like girls and girls like boys", I liked boys, so in my kids brain logic - I was a girl then.

Right that makes sense because in society, gay is taboo and we don't see representation of gay or lesbian relationships when we're growing up and because of that, it can be confusing to Gay youths.

Women only had body dysmorphia at teen and puberty ages.

Yeah I've observed this as well.