Is there really any room for Gay men to speak up on Gender Critical?

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.GenderCritical

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[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I do appreciate the back and fourths we've had and I totally forgot to address your other comment, it's been a long week lol. But yeah when we were talking about how we view femininity. To answer your question, all I mean when I say a "Feminine nonconforming man" is just a man who doesn't go out of his way to look masculine. I just found a good example of such a guy even though he now is deluded in thinking he's a woman but from like 2016-2019 he was just presenting as a non-masculine man.

So I mean take this man here for example. If you saw this man out in public, do you think he looks like the epitome of masculinity? That's more or less where I'm coming from. He clearly doesn't have an interest in a masculine look and the opposite of masculine is feminine. I feel with femininity, it's both a look and sense of feeling. Again I know our views will differ since you were around in the 1970s and 1980s when some men, especially in the entertainment industry started breaking away from the rigid expectation of what men had to dress like in say the 1940s-1950s but I just hope what I'm saying makes at least a little more sense.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Glad you responded. I thought (erroneously as it turns out) you no longer wanted to engage with me.

So I mean take this man here for example. If you saw this man out in public, do you think he looks like the epitome of masculinity? That's more or less where I'm coming from. He clearly doesn't have an interest in a masculine look and the opposite of masculine is feminine.

The guy whose photo you showed is, IMO, of course NOT "the epitome of masculinity." But I don't think think he looks "feminine" either. Males who are "unmanly" are not automatically somehow female.

I disagree that that the opposite of masculine is feminine. And I can't help but notice that in your formulation of these ideas/aesthetics, you seem to assume that what is obviously male is the norm - and anything deviating from the male norm is shunted off into the feminine/female category.

I hope you don't leave this sub, as I genuinely look forward to our future exchanges. I have come to feel fond and motherly towards you!

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well see I'm saying "feminine", not "female". I don't think femininity defines female because if it did, we wouldn't have "Tomboys" or "Butch" lesbians. I genuinely believe that women are defined by their sex (and this included intersex females too like those born with Triple X syndrome or Tetrasomy X Syndrome). How they decide to style themselves is just decoration whether it be more masculine leaning, feminine leaning, or a mix of both.

you seem to assume that what is obviously male is the norm - and anything deviating from the male norm is shunted off into the feminine/female category.

Not at all. For example guys who aren't as rigidly gruff and masculine but yet still have a modicum of masculine aura about them (in the conforming way), I don't think that automatically makes them feminine. Honestly I hate to use this phrase but I feel like Masculinity and Feminine is a spectrum scale. on the far left end you have feminine, on the far right end you have masculine and then you have androgyny in the middle which is the mixture of both. Back to the guy I showed you, it's clear that he likes feminine fashion.

But okay maybe I should ask you how you would define this man or others like him. If you don't consider his sense of style feminine then what would you consider it?

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I actually would not call that as feminine style or that he is looking too feminine. For me "masculine" and "feminine" is more about actual body (mostly face).

In general for me "femininity" is "something more usual for female body" and "masculinity" is "something more usual for male body". Like bigger muscular woman will be "more masculine", and smaller smooth man will be "more feminine". And I would not attach those terms to clothing choices or with some social constructs (because in different societies they are different, same thing can be "masculine" in USA, but "feminine" here, like for example we have big muscular women in villages and factories, it is pretty often here for women to have very short or "boys" haircut or clothing, eg: https://i.imgur.com/PMUQUW9.png for younger women, women at age 30-40 and after 50 often go like this https://i.imgur.com/ROty2n9.png , or even in movies https://i.imgur.com/EaNdMmw.png, and it is still considered to be feminine, and not "butch" like it would be in USA). I think I may call some behaviour as "masculine" or "feminine" too, but only in extreme cases or as satire, like if transwoman is making threats of rape and applying physical strenght, I will say "how feminine of you".

I would say more about "he is wearing cloths that women used to wearing in our society". Or just "wearing women's clothing", while "women's" in quotation marks. And comparing to that guy, you was looking much more feminine (at least on photo you posted in LGBDropTheT one time) with "men's clothing".

I am actually very supportive for such clothing becomes standart for men as "just regular cloth some men can wear". During hot summers I really love to wear kilt-like skirts and top, and roman-looking toga. And they are clearly made for men, without curves and stuff, even thought it is basically just a skirt and a dress "made for men's body". And I am wearing them mostly because it is hot and I hate to wear shorts, while in such clothing it is super comfortable, and it looks decently good for my taste.

For reference: my face is very feminine, more round, with small jaw bones, I have very small adam's apple, my hands and feet size are small, I have natural huge long eyelashes and thin eyebrowes. I have calm slighy high pitched voice. I was metalhead and since often having long hair (for some reason remembered glam rock, when men were wearing women's clothing, make up and glitters as a form of protest). After father died, for around 10 years I was raised in exclusively female surroundings (we went to small village, where only other people living were few old women, and I went with mother and grandmother), and I was in female kindergarned as well (kindergarden was not female-only, but it happened that there were only girls in my group and only women nannies) - so big chunk of my development I had "female socialization" (quotation mark for obvious reasons), as I was getting same treatment as everyone around, no one wanted to be bothered with making me special treatment. I actually loved dolls and still collecting them. During puberty I had problems with testosterone not being craeted in needed amounts, so I had testosterone injections and was taking testosterone pills for few years, until my body fixed itself. People often confusing me as woman, both in real life and internet.