We’re Raising Our Daughter Gender-Neutral, but She Only Wants Pink Dresses. Where did we mess up?

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[–]Finnegan7921 40 insightful - 2 fun40 insightful - 1 fun41 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

These people want to be in the Wokerati sooooooooo bad they can taste it. They'll even wreck their kid's mental and emotional development to do it. She first steers the kid away from the dresses, then relents and lets her wear it all the time, even when playing outside. How about "When you play outside, put your play clothes on so you don't ruin your dress. You can put it right back on as soon as you come in and clean up." How fucking difficult is that ?

[–]BEB 33 insightful - 1 fun33 insightful - 0 fun34 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's kind of Munchausen syndrome by proxy - these parents want attention so must have Very Speshal Kids - note that a lot of the parents ( and -sorry - it is usually mothers) of trans kids are very LOOK AT ME themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factitious_disorder_imposed_on_another

[–]SpatOuttheKoolaid 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Narcissistic parenting. (one of the few remaining helpful communities on reddit is r/raisedbynarcissists) it's classic, just the method is new. I was raised by a narcissist--I was "marketed" into academics, but I was born in the 80s. So glad I wasn't born a few decades later and my mom didn't happen to want a son.

[–]BEB 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There was actually a study done on mothers of transgenders, I believe it mothers of TiMs, that found a high % of a specific disorder. It could have been Borderline Personality Disorder. If I find it, I will post.

Another study found that TiMs have a much higher % of personality disorders than the general population, with the most prominent being Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

[–]TangerineRabbit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here is one study if anyone is interested

[–]Shesstealthy 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

When i was a kid I wore what I was told to wear. I did have some choice but it was cunningly steered by my mother.

I see kids out in dress-up clothes all the time now which is nice for them I guess but I am also mindful that I simply was not ALLOWED to wear impractical tulle and bridesmaid dresses to the supermarket... and I think that's OK.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Reasonable limits are so yesterday.

[–]assignedcopatbirth 31 insightful - 2 fun31 insightful - 1 fun32 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not reading this because my blood pressure can only take so much rage, but man the headline just reeks of sexism. The idea that a girl CHOOSES stereotypically girly things is seen as a failure. Were they raising her gender-neutral in the hopes she would be as boyish as possible? So they could transition her for clout?

Imagine being ten or fifteen and seeing this article about yourself as a toddler, your parents lamenting your choices of clothing and toys as a failure. Fuck, if that doesn't make you want to opt out of gender, what will?

[–]MarkTwainiac 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For the first two years of her life, she was constantly mistaken for a boy because she wore gender-neutral clothes. We direct her towards books and other media that do not represent traditional gender roles (no sparkle princesses!). We ask friends and family to refrain from commenting on her appearance and clothing, if they can help it, and to instead focus on skills or interests.

However, our daughter adores the color pink, insists on wearing dresses, and is currently obsessed with accessories.

After a few battles about wearing her sole pink dress when it was dirty, my daughter and I did some online shopping together and she chose a few more dresses to order (all of them were pink, obviously).

I feel like if we push back too hard on her love for dresses and jewelry, it will backfire, and she will only become more obsessed!

It's as though this woman - and all the other parents like her - have never heard of the concept of the forbidden fruit: something that is made desirable because it is not allowed, and which becomes ever more ineluctably appealing the more it is decreed unacceptable, off-limits and taboo.

This is a concept that is central to the Book of Genesis, the Old Testament origin story that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are based on - religions that more than half the world's population nowadays believes in. In North America, where presumably this woman lives coz she's writing to Slate, the Bible and Judeo-Christian narratives are pretty fundamental to the entire dominant popular culture, regardless of whether we as individuals buy into them.

Beyond the OT, the concept of forbidden fruit is also a known trope in many religious traditions, cultures and stories coz it's a basic fact of human psychology that the act of forbidding something automatically piques humans' curiosity about it and desire for it.

How can such a simple, obvious concept that contains such a large grain of truth be so hard for people to grasp?

[–]BEB 24 insightful - 3 fun24 insightful - 2 fun25 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Thinking that a child liking a color is the only reason that she thinks that she's a girl?

[–]GConly 18 insightful - 11 fun18 insightful - 10 fun19 insightful - 11 fun -  (0 children)

Tried this with my girl... Right up until she was old enough to take off what I chose and put her princess dresses on. Tried her with gender neutral toys... Went for the dolls every time.

I gave in at three, and she went full Barbie Princess and tea parties. Complete with dolly kidnappings, murders and hogtied dolls.

Kids are weird weird weird.

[–]sisterinsomnia 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

My personal experience is that the pink princess dress stage is a phase and passes. Not all girls (or boys) have it at all, but those who do seem to have absorbed (kids are little sponges about how boys and girls are supposed to be, though the culture gives them the answers) the messages about princesses are just acting out the highest role girls are given in traditional fairy tale stories. Like boys playing at being astronauts etc.

So this doesn't really say much about the raising of the girl.

[–]Shesstealthy 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I have a friend also raising their daughter to be a strong clever independent kid while wearing nice clothes that suit her complexion and mama's love of a nice neutral. Currently mad for pink possibly due to other kids st day care or even GASP nascent personal preference.

[–]sisterinsomnia 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There was a study about how children gain colour preferences. The researchers asked very young children to pick balls with different colours. The three-year old group picked colours quite randomly, boys often picking pink and girls blue and so on. By age four or so this changed and the boys started avoiding pink and purple balls and the girls choosing them.

The explanation is that at a certain age kids want to know how their group (boys, girls) behaves, so they learn the cues for that from the world around them. But because they are still very concrete in their thinking, the meaning of things like colour preference becomes very policed. I knew a little boy who at age four or so firmly believed that when he put a necklace on he became a girl. The princess dress etc. may be something similar.

Once kids understand that their being boys and girls is stable and not depending on all that stuff the pink phase tends to be over for most girls. Of course now schools teach that being a boy or a girl might not be stable so perhaps in the future teens walk around in pink princess dresses?

[–]yousaythosethings 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

These are the kind of parents that give their daughters a “gender neutral” name like Elliot, James, Kyle, etc. so they’ll be perceived as “strong.” Oh wait they’re always just boys names. Funny that no gender neutral name ever starts out as a girl’s name. I wonder why that is.

[–]blargus 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Dana, Alex, and Sam are neutral. At a previous job I had a male coworker named Stacy.

[–]yousaythosethings 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Dana is actually a good example of the phenomenon that I’m talking about. It started out as a boy’s name and then people started using it for girls. Once a boy’s name starts getting more associated with girls than with boys it becomes all but abandoned (or close to it) as a boys name. Another example is Morgan.

Sam and Alex are different because they’re generally nicknames not a given name.

Edit: Part of my point is that we never see this in reverse. Where are the male and non-trans-identified Elizabeths, Catherines, and Emilys?

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I take your overall point. But actually, there were girls named Dana and Elliott for many, many generations long before the current wave of genderism due to family tradition. Wasn't common, sure, but it did happen. Lots of male Lesleys and Leslies going way back too.

Once a boy’s name starts getting more associated with girls than with boys it becomes all but abandoned (or close to it) as a boys name. Another example is Morgan.

Are you saying Morgan is no longer seen as (possibly) male, and is no longer being given to male children?

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I’m really confused because I thought Leslie was also historically a male name first. Also Kelsey. What appears to be the case is that slightly softer sounding male names became coopted over time and became mostly or almost exclusively female names. I would be curious if anyone has any examples of the opposite happening.

In any case, as it seems you agree, at minimum, names that were frequently used for both end up becoming mainly girls’s names over time, and the reverse does not seem to happen. Because it’s femininity that parents of boys and girls are fleeing from.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, though I'd say it's the association with the female that parents of boys are fleeing from. And you're right, Lesley and Leslie were traditionally male names. I thought that's what I was saying. Sorry I wasn't clear. (And Leslie Howard was considered quite a male heart throb in his day, though in an entirely different way to his peer & co-star Clark Gable.)

But Kim and Robin used to be very common male names in the Anglophone world too - and those have more of a hard sound than a soft one. And Frances & Francis, also once very common, both sound exactly the same; it's only when written that there's a difference. Similarly, when I was growing up in the 1960s there were plenty of kids of both sexes who went by Ricky, Jackie, Bobby and Charlie.

My point was simply that the trend of girls being given "neutral" or "male" names, or adopting them for themselves, predates the current trans craze by generations.

Most educated people have long been aware that girls and women will be subject to sex discrimination based solely on our names. Hence the long tradition of female authors - from George Eliot to the Bronte sisters in the 19th century to JK Rowling much more recently - adopting male pseudonyms so their books will get published and widely read. And the long tradition of girls going by names like "Scout" in "To Kill A Mockingbird" or George Kirrin in Enid Bly's "The Famous Five" novels.

The author of "We Need to Talk About Kevin" changed her name to "Lionel" Shriver more than 50 years ago. I knew an American woman (who'd be about 120 by now were she alive) who changed her name to "Vlad" in the early 20th century. One of my grandmothers was always known as "Fred" for some reason when her given name was Gertrude.

[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes totally agree and that it predates the trans craze. I think the point I was trying to make in my very first comment is that “gender neutral” parenting of kids is often just aversion to femininity with respect to girls rather than an aversion to femininity being forced on a girl. I think on the boys‘ side it’s more likely to be “choose your own adventure” for them.

[–]chrysthefeminist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I remember an actress named Michael Learned.

[–]chrysthefeminist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Lynn was also a historically male name. And Carroll.

[–]ShieldMaiden 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Meredith is another example. And Ashleigh/Ashley.

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just noticed that you mentioned Stacy. The only male Stacy’s I’m aware of are both black and American. Sample size of 2, so could be a total coincidence. I don’t know the history of the name but also wouldn’t be surprised if it started out as a boy’s name.

[–]MsTig0 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's Stacy Keach, the actor who played über-masculine detective Mike Hammer.

[–]chrysthefeminist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

At a previous job I had a male coworker named Stacy.

Once I had one named Fran.

[–]TurtleFuzz 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The author did a great job pointing out that the mother missed the blatant sexism from the father, and doled out some tough love. Hopefully other parents read this and realize that liking pink is OK.

[–]OrangeFirefly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I do get tired of traditionally female clothes and toys being seen as 'lesser', often by those in the feminist community. It is perfectly possible to wear sparkles and climb trees - there's nothing inherently wrong with sparkles!

I liked the advice given.

[–]oofreesouloo 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

facepalm no comments.

[–]grixit 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Letting a child express clothing preferences is not messing up.

[–]divingrightintowork 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They lost me when they admitted they let their 3-year-old buy their own clothes online. I don't even remember picking clothes when I was 3-years-old, I certainly don't remember ever getting to buy the clothes I wanted until I was an adult and had my own money.

[–]arcticbasket 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So what is the gender neutral color? Orange?

[–]lmaonope333 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

this is misogyny, she's raising her daughter to believe that femininity is inherently bad. obviously a lot of feminine clothes are uncomfortable and impractical, and I wouldn't want to encourage little girls to wear things that restrict their movement, but if my daughter wants pink flowers on her shirt instead of stripes, I don't see a reason to discourage that