All: Disclosure and Consent

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (179 children)

Because people don’t have the right to have their preferences followed without first disclosing those preferences. Do people of jewish heritage have an ethical duty to disclose that heritage to all potential sexual partners on the chance that she might sleep with someone who wouldn’t want to sleep with jewish women?

[–]worried19 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (98 children)

I mean, if I'm dating a man, isn't it reasonable to expect him to have a penis?

It just seems bizarre to say that I should have to announce up front that I want a partner with a penis.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 9 fun -  (97 children)

Trans men do have penises though. You mean to say that you expect a man that you’re interested in to have a penis of a certain type. Also you don’t have to announce it but remember that if you assume and you’re wrong you shouldn’t get mad at the other person, you should just tell them that it isn’t going to work out and leave.

Reasonable is subjective

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

you obviously are not defining "penis" in a way that most people accept.

If, as you say, "reasonable is subjective" then it is perfectly reasonable for someone who subjectively concludes they were misled to be upset. Disclose, be honest and up-front. It will save a lot of grief for everyone.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (94 children)

"Bottom surgery" for trans men is incredibly rare, though. The vast, vast majority of trans men have their normal, unaltered vaginas.

I'm not saying I'd get mad. That's not my style. But it seems like it would be a waste of time for both of us.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Doesn’t even matter that bottom surgery is rare. A neophallus is still not a penis lol

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

True, but I'm trying to work with Heim where he or she is at.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fair enough lol

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

She

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks. I wasn't sure, and I always feel weird about using "they" if that's not someone's preference.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Your sweet

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 8 fun1 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 8 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah it is. You’re not in charge of denoting what is or is not a penis.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know a penis isn’t made out of vagina and arm skin lol

It’s not a penis. It doesn’t look or function like one at all. It’s obviously not a penis lol. We can tell just by looking. We can tell just by hearing a description.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (85 children)

Okay then save time and say you’re only interested in guys with dicks that match whatever your preferences are.

[–]worried19 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (84 children)

So you are saying I have to announce it. I've got a partner anyway, so I hope I'll never have to deal with the dating scene, but I can't imagine needing to specify. Plus if I did write "I only want to date men with dicks" on a dating profile, I'd be accused of bigotry. You really can't win with some of the QT crowd.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (83 children)

I mean your preferences being honored doesn’t mean people won’t judge you.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (82 children)

So I'm basically a bigot who deserves to be judged for not wanting to sexually interact with vaginas?

I'm not attracted to vaginas. I don't want to have sex with someone who has a vagina. I want a man who has a working penis with testicles and that is able to get erect and is able to ejaculate semen. That's a core part of my sexuality right there. Why should I be shamed for that? I'd not saying trans men are bad people. I just don't want to fuck them.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Conversion “therapy” but make it woke.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And then QT wonders why people call them "rapey." It's because of stuff like this. Even if I say I like trans men and consider trans men to be men, it's not good enough. I have to be willing to have sex with them.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (77 children)

A) Not all transmen have front holes

B) If you were with a cis man who lost his dick do you think people wouldn’t judge you for leaving him?

[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Females, however they identify, don't have "front holes". They have vaginas. Also, "front hole" is anatomically inaccurated too because the vagina is between the uretra an the anus.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Virtually all trans men have normal, unaltered vaginas. Bottom surgery of any type is incredibly rare.

If you were with a cis man who lost his dick do you think people wouldn’t judge you for leaving him?

Leaving an established partner, maybe. Not dating him in the first place, definitely not.

If I may ask, what is your sexual orientation?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

Front hole is the most disgusting, demeaning term for a vagina since ‘cunt’. Don’t speak about women’s bodies like that, please. Women are human beings. Our organs have names, not crass and dehumanising descriptors.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Reasonable is subjective

Say that again.

[–]FlanJam 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Because people don’t have the right to have their preferences followed without first disclosing those preferences.

I dont want to dogpile, but it needs to be said: Lack of a 'NO' is not a 'YES"

edit for clarity

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

I mean obviously

[–]FlanJam 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm glad you agree but your original post said otherwise, which is why I pushed back.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

I did not say otherwise

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We can agree to disagree on that. I think your top post speaks for itself.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Okay be as incorrect as you want

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No need to be rude, I haven't been rude to you. If I'm incorrect then correct me, please clarify what you meant in the original post.

edit for brevity

[–]grixitperson 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

If someone says that they like a particular sex, that is the preference. If the other person is not actually that sex, but merely trans, they must disclose.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (37 children)

They have to state that preference though, including the fact that the don't consider trans people to be their identified sexes

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

So why was superstraight such a problem? It was exactly that.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (29 children)

Because the implication was transphobic

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Doing exactly what you suggested is transphobic?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (21 children)

No doing it in a transphobic way is transphobic

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

So what’s the non transphobic way to do exactly what you said, lol?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There is none lol

You can support everything they demand and believe everything they believe but if you don’t want to fuck ‘em you’re a transphobic Nazi

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Right? Anything other than meekly getting on your knees and loving the girldick is immediately called transphobia. Like, can they really not see how rapey this is?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (15 children)

To say that you prefer certain kinds of genitalia and that anyone cis or trans who lacks that genitalia you’re not interested in.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

But you just said doing that was transphobic when superstraight did it.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Stating boundaries is transphobic? Why so many trans people want to have sex with "transphobes", anyway?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

If you state those boundaries in transphobic terms, then yes its transphobic

[–]worried19 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But you implied elsewhere that stating the preference at all means that someone should be judged. If I only want to date men who have penises, I'm supposed to say so, but then I'm also transphobic for saying so? Is there any acceptable way to state that I don't want to have sex with people who have vaginas?

By the way, I'm still curious. You didn't answer me earlier. What is your sexual orientation?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Can someone who doesn’t think sex is real have a sexual orientation?

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good question. Perhaps we should frame it in terms of bodies. What bodies she's attracted to.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you serious? Lmao

[–]grixitperson 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

No, that's a given.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

What’s a given?

[–]grixitperson 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That a person who expresses preference in a partiular sex, means thsat sex and not an imitation.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

Not everyone agrees with the view that trans people are an imitation of their identified sex. If you feel that they are, then the onus is on you to make that opinion and preference known

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most people don't think you can change sex, though.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

they don’t count those people

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

Is sexuality a preference, rather than innate, to you?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (32 children)

Both, but in my view sexuality isn’t based on binary sex status, but rather on observable physical traits. No one is attracted to people based on chromosomes for instance, because chromosomes aren’t directly perceivable in everyday life.

Edit: Maybe a biologist with a very niche kink?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

What percentage of people do you think have genitals that correspond to their chromosomes?

My point being- most people’s outer appearance is indicative of their chromosomes. So I think people assume sex correctly something like 99% of the time.

So us not technically being attracted to chromosomes doesn’t mean we aren’t attracted to what chromosomes correlate to the overwhelming majority of the time.

So while I agree that someone can look at a trans person that they don’t know is trans and be attracted to them- it is because they assume they are the sex they appear to be.

However, knowledge that they are the opposite sex than they were assumed to be is easily more than enough to nullify that attraction.

Not just because of stigma or bias or fear or whatever, but because someone can genuinely not feel attracted to or comfortable with sleeping with a trans person. It’s that simple.

I genuinely do not feel comfortable with the idea of sleeping with a trans person, even post op, and my reasoning has nothing to do with my ideology and everything to do with the technicalities and realities of neo genitals.

You can dismiss what I’m saying as bigotry- but even if I am a bigot, i still have a sexual boundary

What justification is there for that boundary not being respected?

I understand you think we should have to ask- but the fact is that trans people make up such a minute portion of the population that I don’t think that’s a reasonable demand. As I said in the other post- if you know something about you (or even something about your preferences sexually) can be a dealbreaker for the overwhelming majority of people (and we can prove this to be the case with trans people), I think it is your responsibility to disclose.

A married man lies about being single and a woman sleeps with him. He was wrong. I think we can all agree on that. We don’t tell the woman she should have asked. She had no reason to. It’s reasonable to assume she thought he was single.

It’s reasonable to assume someone who looks female is female. So if that’s not the case, it’s the responsibility of the male who looks female to be honest. Just as it would be the responsibility of the married man to be honest about being married. He kept being married a secret because he wanted to get laid. The TW would have kept being male a secret for the same reason. Why is it okay for the TW?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (22 children)

You don’t have the right to have unexpressed preferences honored. It takes six seconds to ask if someone is trans, you all can expend the minute amount of effort and talk to a potential romantic partner about your preferences. Because I’m not going to act like transphobia is the default worldview and should be assumed of all people that I meet.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

yo u don’t have the right to have unexpressed preferences honored

That’s some really rapey rhetoric if you think about it.

Like, before sex is someone really supposed to list off every single thing they don’t want, and if they don’t, they lose the right to say no to unwanted anal, or being urinated on, or the right to change their minds about something they had previously agreed to?

Thats absolutely horrifying.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

Its also not what I said. Why would anyone lose the right to say no?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

They lose their right to say no when they aren’t told ahead of time there may be circumstances they’d say no to…

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

No they don’t. If a sexual partner brings up trying an act that someone doesn’t want to try them they can just say no to trying it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree one thousand percent.

If the issue that crosses someone’s boundaries is mentioned before sexual interaction begins, there’s no issue of consent.

However, if it’s not mentioned until after or not mentioned at all, a boundary has been crossed.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

When they lose the right to have undisclosed preferences respected.

That’s what you said.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

No they don’t have the right in the first place. People aren’t mindreaders

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And so because people aren’t mind readers, the rapey situation I previously mentioned is fine and dandy?

If I didn’t expressly say I don’t want anal sex, according to your statement, I have no right to have that respected if I don’t disclose it beforehand.

You are defending rape rn

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It’s not a preference nor is it bigotry. It’s a sexuality. Sexuality is not transphobic and you calling it so is incredibly homophobic (and whatever the equivalent is for heterosexuals) and rapey.

I’ve never blocked someone but I may have to block you because I really have never seen someone fight so hard to support sexual assault. It’s disturbing.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (10 children)

It’s not sexual assault anymore than its sexual assault for a jewish person to not disclose their jewishness to a potential sexual partner on the chance that they might be an antisemite. The fact that you think it’s different doesn’t mean it is. We don’t have to assume transphobia being acceptable as the default state of affairs. If someone had an issue with certain groups then its up to them to male that preference known

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Actually, let me ask you:

A guy is into tying women up during sex.

He hooks up with some woman, and as they’re having sex, he ties her up. Without asking first. And she gets upset.

Who is wrong?

He’s not raping her. She consented to sex, and was enjoying herself before. She may not have consented to kinky sex, but she didn’t specify that she wasn’t open to kinky sex.

What if she’s okay with being tied up, but she needs to know ahead of time. So she’s not upset that he tied her up, just that she wasn’t expecting it. Is what he did okay now?

Why or why not?

I know tying someone up is not the same as being trans, but your assertion is that being trans isn’t a big deal. And neither is tying someone up during sex, so please indulge me.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

So wait she said nothing as he got the tying item out and approached her? Did she give no body language at all that she wasn’t into it? Like she didn’t get quiet or freeze or look unenthused or anything? What was he like super fast at tying her up or something? If that’s the case, then yes he should have asked. It makes sense that when you consent to sex you don’t automatically consent to all forms of sex.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

“It makes sense that when you consent to sex you don’t automatically consent to all forms of sex“

Just want everyone else to see this lmao

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’ve already addressed this and you’re just going to ignore it because you can’t counter what I said.

We’re done. Maybe someone else has the energy to watch you justify sexual assault and try to shame us for recongnizing it- I don’t.