How much do we owe to strangers?

FlanJam · 2022-02-08T23:42:30+00:00

I think it is dangerous to not voice one's discomfort and fears. It can lead to very dangerous and abusive situations. And the fact that there is backlash for speaking up is really concerning to me.

FlanJam · 2022-02-08T22:57:54+00:00

late reply but congrats!

FlanJam · 2021-12-04T01:33:00+00:00

Sounds like she was pointing out that she isn't completely oblivious to trans people's idea of gender identity, that she does have a inkling of understanding of what they are talking about.

Or does she view it as independent of sex?

She says earlier in the interview that gender identity is different from sex, and that not everyone has a gender identity.

FlanJam · 2021-11-17T05:13:20+00:00

bruh, you can't be for real 😂

FlanJam · 2021-11-14T01:37:51+00:00

And I think transactivists have took full advantage of the confusion between sex and gender.

Oh for sure. The way they're retroactively redefining sex-based things as gender-based is so sneaky. If they were honest about wanting to changed things to be gender-based, that'd be fair game. But claiming things were always gender-based is just deceitful.

FlanJam · 2021-11-08T20:22:15+00:00

I've noticed a lot of the backlash is aimed at criticizing Lily Cade, which is pointless because her interview was only a small part of the article. Its probably because there isn't anything else in the article they can criticize, its mainly just interviews and reporting on facts. Its funny because they claim the article is so terrible yet they can't even criticize it properly lol

FlanJam · 2021-10-28T07:40:32+00:00

I'm kinda surprised trans activists haven't tried to make a "genital preference deconstruction workshop" yet. They did make the cotton ceiling workshop after all.

FlanJam · 2021-10-26T02:46:14+00:00

I don't think its falsifiable because all we have to show for it is people's personal testimonies. And it seems to be exclusively trans and QT aligned people's testimonies, so that doesn't really help. I have no problem believing trans people feel a certain way about their gender, but I don't think we can say anything about where that feeling comes from or if it means anything. And we certainly can't say everyone has a gender identity because some people clearly don't.

FlanJam · 2021-10-09T07:08:05+00:00

Same here. Used to be QT but as I learned more about what they actually believe, I could no longer accept it. I wonder if their beliefs are even sustainable in the long run. I mean, they can't even agree on a definition of woman. Not to mention they're just plain wrong about biological facts.

FlanJam · 2021-10-09T00:36:29+00:00

I used to watch a lot of anime lol. Haven't been keeping up lately but I still enjoy it.

Yeah there is quite a bit of filler. I think the manga wasn't completed at the time, so filler was used to kill time while they wait for the manga to progress the main plot. Its pretty good tho it you can get past that.

FlanJam · 2021-10-08T13:30:19+00:00

Imo QT probably peaks more people than GC does. A lot of GC seem to be former QT who "peaked" because QT was too extreme for them. Funny how that is.

FlanJam · 2021-10-08T13:08:13+00:00

Kinda funny you posted this right before international lesbian day lol

FlanJam · 2021-10-08T12:57:10+00:00

Oh nice, didn't know anyone here watched anime lol. I've never seen MHA tho, Naruto was the only shounen i got into and I never finished it. 500 episodes is too much for me haha

FlanJam · 2021-10-08T12:50:09+00:00

Congrats on the baby!!

Been getting into asian dramas and variety shows lately (not squid game lol). I'm not huge into rap, but Chinese rappers are pretty awesome haha

FlanJam · 2021-09-10T00:46:27+00:00

But are they female?

FlanJam · 2021-09-10T00:07:49+00:00

And the ones who havent transitioned and dont pass? What about them?

FlanJam · 2021-09-09T23:00:46+00:00

Yes, for example I've heard stories of gay men bathhouses not wanting transmen in those spaces. Those spaces are often sexual in nature so I totally get why they wouldn't want a female there.

FlanJam · 2021-09-05T04:14:55+00:00

Glad they caught the creep, I wonder how things will play out in court, and what it means for self-id laws moving forward.

The reaction from QT writers and activists who were defending this incident is disappointing but not surprising. They should be ashamed.

FlanJam · 2021-08-29T10:28:02+00:00

(im not GC but close enough)

I think its up to the trans community to decide the classification for being trans. There doesn't seem to be a strong consensus so far, so I'll just take people at their word. If they say they're trans, I'll call them trans.

FlanJam · 2021-08-26T20:29:12+00:00

True, true. They rather be on the offensive, poking holes in other people's ideas. But rarely do they ever flesh out and defend their own position. I still don't understand how they can account for things like misogyny and patriarchy if sex doesn't matter to them.

FlanJam · 2021-08-26T19:59:53+00:00

Yeah, that's a better way to say it

FlanJam · 2021-08-26T02:32:32+00:00

Oh yea, I remember a survey like that. QT uses it a lot to 'prove' everyone is transphobic. But yeah, even without that, i think its a pretty safe assumption to make? If people aren't content with single sex spaces you'd expect to see a lot of activists advocating for unisex only spaces. But we don't see that at all.

Last time genderbend asked me a question, I asked her to respond to my question first and she did. So I give her the benefit of the doubt that she's an honest interlocutor. But yes, it honestly does feel like a rhetorical strategy rather than a substantive point.

FlanJam · 2021-08-25T20:43:40+00:00

Thanks for playing along with the hypothetical, I think this is the point that a bullet needs to be bit. Which is, men's and women's sports no longer exist. Instead we have a high testosterone category, and a low testosterone category. And athletes are allowed to undergo hormone treatments to participate in whatever category they want. Perhaps that's a bullet some QT would be willing to bite, but to me it sounds bizarre. At that point, why doesn't every athlete take hormones to reach the optimal, maximum allowable testosterone level? I feel like if everyone is taking hormones, it kinda goes against the spirit of sporting competitions.

If so then please explain to me what sport is to you.

I'm not a huge sports person, but I guess I'd consider it a competition of skill, physical ability, and sportsmanship (or something like that).

FlanJam · 2021-08-25T20:22:13+00:00

Don't take this the wrong way but I've noticed you like to answer back with questions that don't really address the main point? Perhaps this thread has run its course, which is fine. No I dont have a survey of how many people are happy with single sex restrooms, its just an assumption but its doesn't change the argument. Which is, single sex restrooms provide safety & privacy, and no one is really pushing to remove them, so it seems rather destructive to get rid of them.

FlanJam · 2021-08-25T10:26:53+00:00

I'm glad someone understands lol

FlanJam · 2021-08-25T10:20:50+00:00

"for sporting purposes" sounds so bizarre lol. Can I identify as male for business purposes? I would prefer to be on the male end of the wage gap lmao.

FlanJam · 2021-08-25T06:45:49+00:00

Isn't that just arguing semantics?

Do you think the difference between transwomen and men-who-take-hormones is semantics?

So if a person fulfills all requirements to compete fairly why shouldn't they enter?

Idk, I'm not giving an opinion I'm just asking questions. I think this scenario is a tricky spot for QT because they'll have to concede something no matter how they answer. So I'm curious how they will reason thru it.

Would it still be "women's hard-fought-for sports leagues? No. But that doesn't matter from a purely competitive viewpoint.

So it would be the end of women's sports? Doesn't that sound kinda bad to you?

FlanJam · 2021-08-24T20:14:36+00:00

If it’s not natural no guy would do that so it seems a pretty pointless question.

Well yeah its not a question pertaining to real life, but rather a hypothetical to probe people's reasoning. I wanted to see how QT justifies their beliefs, because I think almost any answer to this will require biting a bullet of some sort.

But if you don't think transwomen should compete then I guess this whole hypothetical falls apart lol

FlanJam · 2021-08-24T20:01:02+00:00

Yeah it is far fetched, its a hypothetical to see people's reasoning. I guess its kinda like a reductio ad absurdum (I think I'm using that correctly).

So you say he should be allowed? You are okay with men (not transwoman, but man identifying males) in women's sports? Don't you find that inappropriate, to allow men into women's hard-fought-for sports leagues?

FlanJam · 2021-08-23T21:46:30+00:00

I think the burden is on you to say why we should take them away. Single sex restrooms are already the norm, most people are happy with them, and there isn't any issue with them that couldn't be solved with the addition of a 3rd unisex room. So to take them away is a really extreme move to make, you'd need a very compelling reason to do so. And I don't think saying there's no need for them is a strong enough reason even if it were true.

But I do think there are good reasons for single sex spaces, mainly safety and privacy. I don't have the source on hand but I read a statistic somewhere that women are more likely to be harassed in unisex bathrooms compared to women's restrooms. And anecdotally I've heard so many stories of women using the restroom to get away from creepy dudes. Not to mention issues with spycams, peeping toms, or just weird pervs getting off to women pissing.

And on the privacy side, periods are so stigmatized in many cultures. Dealing with that around men only makes it more difficult. Some men get pissy just at the sight of a pad or tampon. Or how about religious women who need to fix their hijab? Or what about women who simply don't wanna be around men when she feels vulnerable? A thin 1 inch stall wall between you and a man isn't very comforting.

But the main point is, why take them away if most people are happy with them, and there's no problem with them? It just seems needlessly destructive to me.

FlanJam · 2021-08-23T08:44:23+00:00

I still believe all public facilities should be unisex

Why not both? Have women's, men's, and unisex. That way people have a choice of which they are most comfortable with.

FlanJam · 2021-08-22T22:04:15+00:00

Yeah, because passing as male makes it very difficult to use the women's room. For someone who passes extremely well, it becomes so impractical they virtually can't use the women's room anymore. Unless they want to constantly get complaints directed towards them every time they pee.

But all this is a non-issue, because transmen who pass very well will want to use the men's room anyways.

FlanJam · 2021-08-22T14:26:26+00:00

Of course not.

edit: I dont think I need to explain further, its pretty obvious yes?

FlanJam · 2021-08-21T07:12:13+00:00

I'm just saying, in terms of real life practicality, it would be difficult for a passing transman to use the women's restroom.

But technically speaking, that is correct, not all females have that right. For example, women in California don't have that right, as demonstrated by the Wi Spa incident some weeks ago.

FlanJam · 2021-08-21T06:21:52+00:00

They'd probably get kicked out for appearing like a male in the women's room. So in a sense, they effectively forfeit access to the women's room once they transition.

I dunno what conservatives or radfems would think or do.

FlanJam · 2021-08-19T10:04:16+00:00

There's no way to know for sure. But I think if someone goes thru all the trouble of transitioning medically, its more likely that they are being honest (but even then you can't be sure, we know detransition is a thing). This isn't a problem for my position because if someone has a personal sense of "gender identity", then that's their personal thing. It shouldn't be imposed on people around them.

It does seem to be a problem for QT because they put a lot of weight on gender identity. So there's technically nothing stopping someone from manipulating "gender identity" for malicious reasons.

FlanJam · 2021-08-16T02:25:27+00:00

Oh how exciting, congrats haha XD

FlanJam · 2021-08-12T03:28:03+00:00

buddhist
-
not at all
Yes, both QT and religious apologists often appeal to highly abstract philosophy to justify their beliefs. Its the only ground they have to stand on since their beliefs are so contrary to what we see in reality.

FlanJam · 2021-08-04T21:55:27+00:00

Since Hubbard lost it'll probably fly under the radar and nothing will happen. The general public needs to open their eyes for there to be any real push back.

FlanJam · 2021-08-01T05:45:37+00:00

Since it recently came to my attention, the anti-feminist sentiment in Korea is scary. 58% of men in their 20s oppose feminism in Korea. I think its a backlash against how feminism in Korea has become more outspoken in recent years.

Also, just gay rights in general. People think gay issues have been solved but its still legal in many states to fire someone for being gay. And outside the western english speaking world, many countries still have a long way to go for gay rights.

FlanJam · 2021-07-31T00:47:32+00:00

Thanks for the response. So they would be gender-id-conforming but gender-role-nonconforming. I see what you're saying. Gender is used in so many different ways its hard to know what people mean sometimes.

FlanJam · 2021-07-30T20:21:42+00:00

Would you say a butch lesbian, who identifies as a woman, is completely gender-conforming because she id's as a woman? What about a transman who identifies as a man?

FlanJam · 2021-07-29T23:43:44+00:00

The way I see it, gender noncomformity is going against the gender-roles/norms/etc of your sex. A good example is An San, the recent Korean gold medalist in archery. She's been getting a lot of shit from anti-feminists in korea for her short haircut. Gender nonconformity isn't just limited to fashion tho, I think it could also apply to mannerisms and behavior.

Is it a deliberate act of adopting gender norms of the other sex or is it normal human preferences being expressed without the tightlacing gender puts out.

Could be either or, different people have different motivations.

Is aggressively adopting the norms of the opposite sex actually nonconforming?

Yes in that they are not conforming to their sex roles. But now they are conforming to the opposite sex roles, which still reinforces those gender-norms in a way. So it feels rather unnatural.

FlanJam · 2021-07-26T00:34:19+00:00

Used to be QT but I didn't really think about it, I just accepted everything they said. They have a dangerous way of gaslighting people. Even when I felt something was off I ignored my gut feeling because I thought I was the one in the wrong. But eventually I realized my instincts were right all along, its QT who is insane. I'm lucky tho because I was never super deep into QT, so getting out wasn't that difficult for me.

I flirted with GC for a bit, and while I agree with them on many things, but I wouldn't call myself GC.

FlanJam · 2021-07-25T00:53:22+00:00

nothing serious i hope, get well soon! 🤞

FlanJam · 2021-07-25T00:52:35+00:00

that sucks, hope you recover quickly 🤞

FlanJam · 2021-07-24T02:27:53+00:00

Yup, afaik non-binary is really only prevalent in American and UK. So it bothers me when they claim non-binary has always existed in every culture, then they point to things like two-spirit or hijra or whatever else. The way they haphazardly conflate all these different cultural concepts into "nonbinary" is so disrespectful.

FlanJam · 2021-07-23T07:53:58+00:00

I think of it as a form of self expression, and I wouldn't mind it so much if that was all it was. The problem is they get it all mixed up with gender stereotypes, and then try to force their beliefs on everyone else. I find it especially obnoxious when they try to force it upon other cultures who don't see gender in the same way. But I guess Americans forcing their beliefs on everyone else isn't anything new.

Do you think there are differences between them and people who identify as the opposite sex or not?

People who identify as the opposite sex often have dysphoria or something causing them distress with their bodies. Hence its a more serious issue for them. For nonbinary people, its literally just a label.

What do you think of neo-pronouns?

Impractical. Even some of the most staunch QT people I've seen think they are impractical.

Do you think people who identify as such should be able to get their official documents changed to reflect their "gender identities" instead of their sex?

No, sex is more important.

FlanJam · 2021-07-22T05:45:32+00:00

It just dawned on me how recent this case is, Reimer was born in '65. So this all happened in the 60s and 70s. That's shocking to me.

There is nothing to be inferred from Money’s experiment besides that medical and sexual abuse are bad.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too.

Thanks for the links, better than wikipedia lol

FlanJam · 2021-07-22T05:31:48+00:00

Losing my patience with QT lol. Especially in the fallout of the Wi Spa stuff.

I wonder, has there ever been an honest, good-faith debate between QT and GC? The closest I've seen is this debate between Meghan Murphy and Julie Rei Goldstein, but the format was annoying. Idk why they decided to have a panel ask dumb questions, just them them have a back-and-forth geez.

FlanJam · 2021-07-21T21:16:48+00:00

You think trans people imprint like ducklings? Also, desire isn't necessarily non-innate. A desire can be entirely innate.

FlanJam · 2021-07-21T21:14:12+00:00

I think you're using "real" differently from how the dictionary uses it.

FlanJam · 2021-07-21T21:09:10+00:00

No need to be rude, I haven't been rude to you. If I'm incorrect then correct me, please clarify what you meant in the original post.

edit for brevity

FlanJam · 2021-07-21T08:59:40+00:00

But why would this make them different? They still aren’t identifying with anything the opposite sex can understand. So why should it matter to anyone but them? And to take it further, why should your brain change how I feel about your genitals/your sexed body overall?

It doesn't make sense to me either. I can understand why some may find comfort in the idea of gender-identity if they are uncomfortable with their sex. But then they make this massive leap to say gender-identity supersedes sex, and sex doesn't matter at all. This is the core issue with QT ideology imo. You can't just pretend sex doesn't exist when it such a big part of everyone's lives.

And since you have a ladybrain too, you should understand and respect that. Why are you contributing to the problems women already have? Why are you telling me what it is to be a woman?

That's the part that really bothers me. There seems to be no consideration, no sympathy for women. The Wi Spa incident was really a prime of example of how much they dont give a fuck.

FlanJam · 2021-07-21T02:17:08+00:00

Yeah, given QT track record for bending the truth, or just straight up lying, I'm becoming very skeptical of any claims they make.

FlanJam · 2021-07-21T02:14:54+00:00

Oh yeah, obviously gender was involved. I just meant its not a case study for gender, we shouldn't be drawing conclusions about gender from this case.

FlanJam · 2021-07-20T22:11:55+00:00

Yeah, there was so much abuse and such involved with this case. This case is more about child abuse and medical abuse than about gender.

FlanJam · 2021-07-20T22:08:48+00:00

Agreed. Looking at the case in context, I don't see how anyone can draw conclusions about gender from it.

FlanJam · 2021-07-20T21:54:57+00:00

What other case is there?

I'd like to know too.

First- what do they mean by “masculinity”?

I'm not quite sure, the way I heard it described was very vague. I assumed they were talking about behavior but I can't be sure.

Maybe they realized they were male simply because they didn’t develop like females do?

That's what I figured. I guess the counter point would be that they were put on hormones so they would've developed closer to how females develop. But I don't think that's enough to fool someone into thinking they're actually female.

Why do tras/qt think that the possibility of proving some type of gender identity matters?

Maybe they think it gives them validity. For example, what's the difference between a drag queen and a transwoman? QT can point to gender-identity, to them that's the extra bit that makes a transwoman really a woman. Without gender-identity, QT has to admit trans people aren't that different from other gender-non-conforming people.

FlanJam · 2021-07-20T21:13:54+00:00

What's the difference between an 'instinctual identification with something' and a 'desire to be something'? Honest question.

FlanJam · 2021-07-20T21:08:32+00:00

I don't quite understand what you're saying, perhaps you could clarify or rephrase.

FlanJam · 2021-07-20T21:01:45+00:00

We can agree to disagree on that. I think your top post speaks for itself.

FlanJam · 2021-07-20T07:47:38+00:00

How terrible, I feel so bad for him and the abuse he went thru. I agree QT should just let him rest in peace. In context this case is nothing like I've heard them describe, and doesn't prove anything they've claimed. Maybe they have another case they are referring to, but this one doesn't do anything for QT.

FlanJam · 2021-07-19T02:40:30+00:00

The most charitable explanation for gender-identity I can give is some internal feeling trans people have that makes them desire to be the opposite sex. But many QT wouldn't accept that because it'd be transmed or something. Also, they would claim everyone has gender-identity, but conveniently only trans people are aware of it.

The other common explanation for gender-identity is some nebulous internal soul thing that I can't steel man to save my life lol

FlanJam · 2021-07-19T01:59:30+00:00

Not all of them will admit this, but some will admit they're just using gender stereotypes to imitate their desired sex as much as they can. That's the most honest, charitable explanation imo.

FlanJam · 2021-07-18T21:52:25+00:00

If I could steel-man QT, they'd probably made a distinction between gender-identity and gender-expression. The gender-expression can change over culture and time. The gender-identity is the innate part.

FlanJam · 2021-07-18T03:21:04+00:00

So maybe whatever changes are happening or happened or will happen are less about the topics and more about just sort of how humans behave with each other? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but that seems like it could just very well be the case!

That could be the case, I definitely think infighting is prone to happen especially for groups with deeply held beliefs. I'm kinda surprised we haven't seen more infighting among QT tbh, but maybe I'm just not paying attention.

Do you think that those things occurring during the pandemic had more or less impact because of it? Did the pandemic affect the impact of instances like those at all?

Maybe more people were made aware because more people are spending time online, that's how I found out. But idk how significant that number would be.

FlanJam · 2021-07-16T22:05:37+00:00

I'm glad you agree but your original post said otherwise, which is why I pushed back.

FlanJam · 2021-07-16T22:02:08+00:00

Real literally means 'not artificial'. So if its artificial, its not real.

According to Merriam Webster:

: not artificial, fraudulent, or illusory : genuine

FlanJam · 2021-07-16T21:11:04+00:00

I guess I've noticed some infighting among QT, perhaps due to being cooped up and online during the pandemic. But idk if that's really significant or just regular infighting that any group will have.

There was also the Bell v Tavistock case and the Maya Forstater stuff, but that just happened to overlap with the pandemic, not so much a result of it.

But overall I dunno, I can't think if any significant changes that happened because of the pandemic. But I haven't been paying close attention so I could be missing something lol

FlanJam · 2021-07-16T08:08:01+00:00

I remember at the beginning of the pandemic, QT made themselves look bad when they complained life-saving surgeries were prioritized over trans surgeries. But that was a brief passing moment. Other than that, I dunno if one side really benefited over the other due to the pandemic. At least, none that I've noticed.

FlanJam · 2021-07-15T23:47:31+00:00

I think those sciencey questions are best suited for biologists. GC would probably have more to say about the social implications of that technology (if it existed), but the science part should be left to scientists.

That there might be neopenises that look, feel and function exactly like natural penises? Or neovaginas that look, feel and function exactly like natural vaginas?

QT believes we've already achieved this. Apparently even a gynecologist can't tell the difference lol.

Is there a reason why a neopenis that looks, feels, and functions exactly like natural penises can not be considered a real penis? Or a neovagina that looks, feels, and functions exactly like natural vaginas can not be considered a real vagina? Despite doing the same things? Wouldn't a laboratory meat that tastes, looks, feels and functions exactly like natural meat be considered real meat?

If we go by dictionary definitions, something's "realness" depends on whether it is natural or artificial. Neo-genitals and laboratory meat are man-made, they are artificial. So they are not "real" by definition. They could appear and function identically to the real thing, but the fact they are artificially produced is what makes them, well, artificial.

FlanJam · 2021-07-13T21:26:24+00:00

I guess it depends who you'd consider QT, certainly all the outspoken and devout QTs believe it is bigotry. But I think the more casual QT people would be more likely to say date whoever you want its your life.

Personally, I wouldnt mind dating a casual QT person, I think those people just wanna support trans people but aren't necessarily devoted to the crazy stuff. I dunno about a hardcore QT person tho, it'd be like dating a flat-earther. I guess we could make it work but it'd be tough to ignore the elephant in the room. I wouldn't mind dating a GC person given they aren't one of the ultra extreme ones who are actually transphobic.

FlanJam · 2021-07-12T05:43:43+00:00

happy bday! 🎉🥂

FlanJam · 2021-07-12T04:04:23+00:00

Its just a really weird way of using "man" and "woman". Most people don't use it like that. If I told my neighbors "women can have penises", they'd look at me like a crazy person.

FlanJam · 2021-07-11T08:46:22+00:00

True haha. They'll say its a "dog whistle" or something.

FlanJam · 2021-07-11T03:37:49+00:00

And lying is the safest option if you're unsure how they'll react. Or be vague, say something like "you're not my type" if you don't wanna lie.

FlanJam · 2021-07-10T04:33:59+00:00

Because people don’t have the right to have their preferences followed without first disclosing those preferences.

I dont want to dogpile, but it needs to be said: Lack of a 'NO' is not a 'YES"

edit for clarity

FlanJam · 2021-07-09T05:35:52+00:00

Well kind of, I guess? You pointed out a source at the spa, that's one kind of evidence. And like I mentioned before, you can seek out evidence that the woman planned to fabricated the incident. Not saying it would be easy to prove if it was staged. But the article should've sought out more evidence before claiming it may have been staged. At this point it just feels like conjecture.

FlanJam · 2021-07-09T05:29:21+00:00

I agree with you, there's no reason to think its fake. This article is basically conjecture and they shouldn't have published it as is tbh. I was just telling Heimdekledi what kind of evidence I think would be compelling.

FlanJam · 2021-07-09T04:59:25+00:00

Now I'm confused. Why did you ask "How would you find evidence for a story about lack of evidence?" if you already have an example of evidence?

Rabbit holes aside, my point is this story is flimsy and probably shouldn't have been publish in this state.

FlanJam · 2021-07-09T03:09:43+00:00

You could find evidence that the woman who filmed the original video faked it. Or get her to admit it's fake. Or maybe collect testimony from women at the spa saying there was no trans people there.

I've never heard of the blade before, but the way this article was written does not inspire confidence.

FlanJam · 2021-07-09T02:56:24+00:00

Any half-decent human being would wanna be sure their partner is comfortable and ready before taking the next step. So yes, trans people should disclose if they care about their partners.

FlanJam · 2021-07-09T02:38:12+00:00

I hope it was fake. But the source seems bias, and the (lack of) evidence they provide is unconvincing. The fact that they published this article at all is kinda weird, if they really think its fake they should keep digging instead of publishing prematurely.

But even if it were fake, it doesn't change the core issue. And the violence from the protests is still disturbing.

FlanJam · 2021-07-06T19:32:11+00:00

I think I saw that, or at least I saw something similar. A 'feminist' writer said something like its rude for the girls to stare at the person's penis, as if the trans person was the victim in this scenario. Absolutely backwards bonkers, I feel like I'm in an episode of the twilight zone.

FlanJam · 2021-07-06T04:28:53+00:00

Yeah they were really hard to watch, the violence is genuinely disturbing. I don't even know if its possible to reason with these people anymore.

FlanJam · 2021-07-06T04:12:28+00:00

Yeah and I don't like the way they frame it as pro-trans vs anti-trans. Its so loaded, it makes the "anti-trans" side the bad guys by default. I don't even think of it as a trans issue, its a women's issue. The fact that the person is trans doesn't matter. Its the fact that they have a penis, that's the issue.

FlanJam · 2021-07-05T06:08:24+00:00

Update on the incident (dont wanna make a whole new thread so I'll post here):

tl;dr People protested Wi Spa after the incident. Antifa group accused them of transphobia and attacked them. Police stepped in to break it up.

FlanJam · 2021-07-03T09:41:28+00:00

more lurkers than i expected, intersesting

FlanJam · 2021-07-01T07:36:39+00:00

No problem! I think the framing of the whole thing is terrible, because the gender-ideology side have made it seem like they represent trans activism but I dunno if they do. It might seem that way when you see all the eccentric people on twitter and youtube saying crazy stuff, but when I talk to real trans people they don't agree with any of the crazy stuff either. I wonder if you polled trans people, how many are actually on board with gender ideology.

The whole mess seems to just continue to shine a light on the reality of biological sex,

Its kinda hilarious in a way, its like people are rediscovering the importance of sex all over again. I saw some apolitical people on the female weight lifting reddit discussing that trans weightlifter in the olympics. They were saying its kinda unfair for natal women, and that we should have "amab and afab" divisions... and I'm thinking hello? we already have that its called male and female sports lol. Its wild how we have to reinvent the wheel.

I had to look up cotton ceiling again

Haha, totally not a biased article at all lol. In all seriousness tho, its so hard to talk about cotton ceiling because everyone exaggerates so much. Either it doesn't exist at all or trans people are going around forcing people to have sex with them. But in reality I think its a more nuanced discussion about social pressure, having boundaries, when a trans person should disclose, etc. Its an important discussion to have but no one wants to have it because its become so politicized.

Sorry for ranting but I wanted to get if off my chest lol.

FlanJam · 2021-07-01T02:51:00+00:00

Well that's a pretty fringe view. I don't think the vast majority of people would want that.

FlanJam · 2021-07-01T00:19:06+00:00

That's not how sections work...

FlanJam · 2021-07-01T00:05:48+00:00

Again, you're diverting from the original point. Why can't trans people use the co-ed section? Seems like a fair solution that would satisfy everyone.

FlanJam · 2021-06-30T22:42:32+00:00

In many cultures its okay for women to be naked around other women. That's why spas and bathhouses have a designated women's section.

But that's diverting from my original point. Trans people are welcome to use the spa, just use the co-ed section. Meanwhile women who don't want to be around male bodies can use the women's section. The whole issue can easily be avoided if people just used the designated sections, I don't see why this is so hard.

FlanJam · 2021-06-30T19:50:17+00:00

There is literally a co-ed area why can't trans people use that? The women's section is there for women who don't want to see male bodies. And young girls should absolutely NOT be subjected to a strangers dick, this shouldn't be controversial.

FlanJam · 2021-06-30T01:56:32+00:00

Undoing self-id would be huge, if gender ideologues actually walked back on that, it'd give me hope we could get along. Acknowledge the cotton ceiling issue, give a voice to detrans people, stop denying sex exists, acknowledge the importance of sex especially for women... if everyone could agree on those things, that's be amazing.

FlanJam · 2021-06-29T09:49:49+00:00

That dailydot article is ridiculous. How can anyone defend this shit? There were underage girls present for fucks sake. Its a shame this story will probably get brushed under the rug, more people need to be aware.

FlanJam · 2021-06-29T07:33:36+00:00

I haven't seen the show so idk how much i agree/disagree with this fan theory. But I don't see a problem with people making fan theories in general.

FlanJam