Does anyone else here can't relate to men?

submitted by oofreesouloo from self.Lesbians

The title is pretty self explanatory. This is something I've thinked about for a couple of years now once in a while. This is the reasons I think that makes me have this strong disconnection with men:

1) I'm a very emotionally sensitive person and most men are not

2) I'm not attracted to men, so it will increase my uninterest in them

3) I personally don't like/can't relate to masculinity in general (and I'm even turned off by it when it comes to masculine women) and most men are masculine - more uninterest

4) 99% of the times, I can't be open about my sexual orientation around them, so it makes me somehow uncomfortable because I genuinely have no idea if they ever think I like them romantically or if they get that I'm just being nice to them (I feel totally clueless and I don't know 'how they perceive things')

What I feel, in short, is this 'huuuuge disconnection and uninterest'. But it's not that I put all men in a box lmao, it just happens. For example, my best friend of ALL TIME was a straight regular man.

I can connect very easily as well, for example, with effeminate men. And on the opposite side, I have much harder time connecting with masculine women. But the worse of it all is really relating to 'regular' men (for the reasons above).

I was wondering if anyone else here feels the same way (or even the opposite way, aka has a hard time relating to 'regular' women) and/or if someone happens to have any advice, I guess?

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[–]plotbunny 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I find men easier to get along with on a superficial level, but I've only ever had deeper emotional connections with women. I also find 'bro culture' really off-putting.

[–]hermiona52 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am the same. With my male friends I love to talk about movies, games, new tech, stuff like this. And those conversation can be quite long and in-depth. But... when I need to talk about my personal stuff, my feelings, my crushes, problems with mental health of my mum and all the trouble it causes... only female friends of mine know about this.

[–]oofreesouloo[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for your answer! :D

I also find 'bro culture' really off-putting.

Omg, totally. I don't care if someone's a man or a woman. If that person engages in 'bro culture', I'll find it personally very off-putting and even gross. Most people who engage in it are men, but there are definitely some women who do as well.

[–]Starburns 21 insightful - 3 fun21 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I personally find majority of straight men to be very dull as they don’t really listen to me when I’m speaking and expect me to be quiet and just laugh at what they say. Majority of my interactions are just chit chat at work or with my friends husbands. I have traditionally male hobbies too but I have found straight men frequently hostile or sexually inappropriate if I try to be part of a group with them. I have a lot of gay male friends however, I feel they see me as a person vs straight men lol. I don’t have advice as I don’t really feel the need to be friends w men haha I only try if they’re dating my friends

[–]oofreesouloo[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for your answer! :D

I personally find majority of straight men to be very dull as they don’t really listen to me when I’m speaking and expect me to be quiet and just laugh at what they say.

While obviously this isn't the rule for all straight men (I do know several respectful straight men), this DOES happen frequently in guy groups. I find that they expect you to laugh lmaaaaaao. I feel so uncomfortable and out of the place most of the time. I laugh out of courtesy. This does not happen so much when it's a one-on-one interaction and not in a group, from my experience. Yeeees, I've only met effeminate gay men so far and they are definitely much easier to connect, without a doubt! :) (I don't know how masculine gay men are, as I've never met one, or maybe I have but didn't know he was gay lmao).

[–]VioletRemi 15 insightful - 5 fun15 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

What do you mean by "relate"? Just feeling sympathy or friendly connections? If yes, then I can't relate to almost anyone, but I am very open and speaking with everyone, but never on a personal or deep level. I am always chosing only 1-2 persons and spending most of my time with them, speaking on most themes. Last years I am becoming a bit more open to people, but I am still can't spend time with more than few people at once (and most likely never will do, as I just dislike that).

I am not sure how not having romantic interest to some group of people can make that group uninteresting.

I'm a very emotionally sensitive person and most men are not

This on my practice is not true. Almost all straight men I know are very sensitive and emotional, but they react in agressive or rude way, or trying to outplay with bad jokes or "showing masculinity".

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]oofreesouloo[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Thanks for your answer! :D I would argue and say men are definitely more insecure than women (and that's what makes them usually more 'aggressive'?), but that women are usually more sensitive on an emotional level. But I respect your opinion. :)

    By the way, these are obvious generalizations. Not all men, not all women (obviously).

    [–]Lizzythelezzo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I find men are inwardly sensitive, but outwardly insensitive. Basically they dish it out but can't take it. Women tend to be outwardly sensitive (i.e. more kind towards others) but less inwardly sensitive (less easily offended).

    [–]oofreesouloo[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Perfect explanation! Very good. 100% agree. Overall, men and women are considerably different, generally speaking.

    [–]oofreesouloo[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Thank you for your answer! :D What I mean by 'relate' is having friendly connections. I'm able to feel sympathy for sure, but most of the times, I won't be able to develop an actual friendship with them besides very casual conversation when we meet. I've always been able to develop personal and deep friendships, so it doesn't sound like my problem is exactly the same as yours. I'm glad that you're trying to have more meaningful connections with people! :)

    I am not sure how not having romantic interest to some group of people can make that group uninteresting.

    It doesn't. It's all the factors I've "listed" combined lmao. As I said, my best friend of all time actually was a straight totally regular man, with whom I had a very deep and meaningful connection with (the best one so far!) :)

    Almost all straight men I know are very sensitive and emotional

    I didn't say men were insensitive though. What I meant is that they're usually less sensitive than I am.

    but they react in agressive or rude way, or trying to outplay with bad jokes or "showing masculinity".

    That's the thing. What I feel is that the way men display or show their emotions is very different from the way I show mine, I don't relate to them and have trouble understanding them in general. I hate when men react like that lmao. But I would also hate it if it was a woman, so it's not about the sex of a person necessarly. The 'truth' is that we often see some sort of 'pattern behaviors' in men and 'pattern behaviors' in women.

    [–][deleted]  (7 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]oofreesouloo[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

      Thanks for your answer! :D Your answer does make a lot of sense, actually. Masculine women are still very different from masculine men, well, simply just because they're women and not men (mind blowing! /s). Defining masculinity and femininity is actually really hard to put into words, at least for me, because, for me, it's a group of behaviors one adopts, and many times those behaviors are subtle. It's not an easy thing to define. For example, you can be physically affectionate with someone and display a more 'masculine' behavior doing it or a 'feminine' behavior doing it. It's not really something people do 'on purpose', it just comes naturally. There are emotionally sensitive feminine women and emotionally sensitive masculine men, but they will display their emotions in a total different way (these are just examples). I don't know if I'm making any sense lmaaaao.

      [–][deleted]  (5 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]oofreesouloo[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

        I've thought about this before! I think attempting to rigidly, specifically define masculinity and femininity is what led to the 62784632 genders, ultimately, as each and every variation and combination of traits was considered a distinct gender. It's not very specific imo, and subtle as you said.

        100% agree with you. :)

        Idk if this stuff is masculine

        For me, that's neither masculine or feminine. It depends on how you behave doing those things, your body language doing those. Your body language can be more 'masculine' or 'feminine'. You also have another lovely trait, which is being a funny lady (which I like on women).

        I find myself 'needing' to define masculinity and femininity because I actually feel turned off by what is considered a more 'masculine' body language and turned on by what is considered a more 'feminine' body language. I do not control it, but it's a pattern I notice and it's the best way I can put it.

        [–][deleted]  (3 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]oofreesouloo[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

          Your sense of humor is one of my favorites in a woman haha. I love when women are funny like you 😂

          Ah that's a good point. I'm actually not that sure if my body language or tone etc. is all that feminine or masculine. I think it definitely leans more masculine though.

          Yes, what I mean is really the 'body language' and not exactly your personality traits per se (those aren't inherently masculine or feminine, though some tend to be associated more with masculinity and others with femininity). You do sound to have a more 'masculine vibe' by the way you speak at me lmao. This is something I feel, and have noticed even before this conversation. I don't know how to put into words. But that doesn't change the fact that I do think you're a lovely lady. :)

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

          [deleted]

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            I think some people are more aware and sensitive to these variations and others

            Based on my personal experience, definitely yes. Unfortunately, my body is very picky with these stuff. 😅

            [–]a_blue_bird 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

            I was wondering if anyone else here feels the same way (or even the opposite way, aka has a hard time relating to 'regular' women)

            90% of the time I relate to men, and struggle to find anything in common with other women, regular or not. Men are much easier to get along with.

            [–]Gearbeta 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            I'm the exact same way. I have a lot of hobbies that are dominated by men so I end up having more male friends.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Thanks for your answer! :D

            I'm not sure I fully understood. You're saying you're exactly like me, but because your hobbies are the same as many mens', you find it easier to have male friends?

            [–]Gearbeta 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            I thought I replied to the wrong person but it doesn't look like I did lol. or Saidit is confusing me. I meant to reply to a_blue_bird who said she gets along with men better.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Oh, my bad. You're totally right. That makes lot of sense now!

            [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            I see lots of men like annoying brothers, so they are easy to relate to for me. My dad was the person I am most like in my family so maybe it has something to do with that. Average women I don’t find I relate to as easily because I find lots of women seem to think the lesbians are sexually attracted to them on some level and that creates a bit of weirdness for me. Also they try and make moves on me when they are drunk and that’s so gross and weird. I mean coworkers and random straight female friends. Especially if there are guys around

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Thanks for your answer! :D Yes, it seems like we're the opposite. Sometimes, when I see a woman having lots of guy friends and I'm like "how does she do that?" 😅

            [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Same. Something like 80% of my friends are men. Most of my hobbies and interests are stereotypically masculine, and I've never really been into anything that women are mainly into. 🤷‍♀️ It's been that way since I was a kid - always was the ONE girl invited to the all boy party and stuff.

            [–]MonkeeKat 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

            Honestly if I never talked to another man again, I don't think I'd care. I'm just disinterested in them and don't relate to them well.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Well, fair enough! I'm just worried because I'll be contacting with looooots of men next year LMAO.

            [–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            i get along with gay men fantastically!! but straight men have never wanted anything to do with me lol. like they tend to straight-up ignore me in group conversation & will avoid eye-contact at all costs, it used to bug me when i was younger, felt dehumanizing y'know, but i couldn't possibly give less of a shit now. they don't try to connect w/ me and i don't try to connect w/ them & that's that. i've always thought the same like "i have no use for masculinity", but then i'm not sure what i mean by that? that i don't care for yelling? bravado? lack of hygiene? doesn't everyone dislike that?? idk. i can't think of a woman i didn't get along with because she was "too masculine" & i'm probably pretty masculine myself, i don't think i know what the word means to me, i just know i gravitate toward things society labels feminine, but i'm digressing lol. my hobbies & occupations tend to be dominated by women & gays so i just don't have a whole lot of contact w/ straight dudes & that's more than fine with me.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            You sound similar to me ahah.

            i get along with gay men fantastically!! i just know i gravitate toward things society labels feminine my hobbies & occupations tend to be dominated by women & gays so i just don't have a whole lot of contact w/ straight dudes & that's more than fine with me

            Same to all of this.

            (By the way, for me, masculinity has nothing to do with lack of hygiene, or yelling, or bravado lmao. Actually, lots of feminine women yell and make bravado a lot and are even worse than men 😅)

            [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            yeah i totally have a weird, incorrect definition of it i know, like i know the difference between masculine & feminine body language, i just have difficulty wrapping my head around the concept completely in like a normal way for whatever reason. o well! lol

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            It's totally okay. Defining masculinity and femininity is actually pretty complicated because, for me, it's related to the body language (like you also suggested) and, more often than not, are subtle things. The way someone 'behaves' and shows emotions and engages in social situations overall.

            [–]thecorvidfamilysplit 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            It's very rare for me to connect with a man. Getting along and working with women has always felt much more natural to me. Whereas with men I feel like I have to be extra careful not say something that might upset them. And it has only ever been men who ignore me completly when talking to them, or pretend I'm not part of a group.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Thanks for your answer! :D Your experience is actually really similar to mine. There have been lots of men who straight up ignored me completely or just were clearly uncomfortable by my presence lmaaaaaao.

            Getting along and working with women has always felt much more natural to me.

            This, totally.

            [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            I can casually chat with men very easily (gay or straight) because I don’t have sexual interest in men. Same with straight women. It’s a boundary I don’t mentally or emotionally cross.

            I don’t have any males in my close personal circle.

            I am totally tongue-tied with butch lesbians because I have such a strong attraction to them. Sexual attraction adds another entire dimension to the interaction for me.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Thanks for your answer! :D

            Same with straight women. It’s a boundary I don’t mentally or emotionally cross.

            Definitely understand what you're saying and I do the same. If they're straight, I'll 'block' anything romantically wise I could eventually feel.

            Sexual attraction adds another entire dimension to the interaction for me.

            Definitely. You touch in a very important point. What happens with me is that if I assume a woman is straight, I'll 'block' (as I've mentioned before) and I won't have any problem being 'comfortable' around them. However, it has happened a few times when I actually find out that woman is bi (it never happened being a lesbian) and if I feel attraction, suddenly my mind stops 'blocking' and I'm like "she's kinda hot" and I start getting much more nervous and tongue-tied ugh 😅

            [–]carrotcake 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

            That mind blocking state being interrupted when you realize she's bi is SO TRUE

            [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            I can totally relate!

            [–]whateverman 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

            Men are different, but I can't say that I don't relate to or empathize with them at all. I have a couple of male friends I'd call close and I'm lucky to have them in my life. There are societal pressures they face that I will never experience or understand. I just try my best to be a good friend and relative when needed.

            I'm sometimes jealous of their natural physical strength. It's like a superpower!

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Thanks for your answer! :D Yes, you're making total sense. You sound like a good friend :)

            [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

            I relate the most with nerds, artists, eccentric people, total assholes that are funny, people that tend to question the world and are curious, whether or not they are emotionally sensitive, it’s important for them to have depth of thought, at least. These are the people I relate to the most, male or female aside.

            In terms of light friendships I relate to men more because they don’t demand as much emoting, on average, and tend to make a lot of jokes. We usually build off of each other’s jokes. That’s good for me because I can sort of get too into my head. Or maybe I just don’t feel as strongly about them so things can stay light. Not sure.

            My friendships with women are different, they can be much more heavy and require a lot of energy.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

            Thanks for your answer :D

            people that tend to question the world and are curious

            it’s important for them to have depth of thought, at least

            This is also very important to me, personally, especially the depth of thought lmao. I like to analyse and reflect on everything 😅

            In terms of light friendships I relate to men more because they don’t demand as much emoting, on average, and tend to make a lot of jokes. My friendships with women are different, they can be much more heavy and require a lot of energy.

            You sound like the opposite of me. I totally understand where you're coming from, the only thing is that I feel the exact opposite. For me, that constant everything-is-a-joke mood that often I see more in men than women is just... I don't get what's so funny about it 🤣🤣🤣 On the other hand, maybe because I am a very emotional person, I don't feel like friendships with women are heaaaaavy and require a looooot of energy, but I do understand why for some people it would lmao.

            [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

            I am also very emotional and that is exactly why they are more heavy and require energy. I get invested in relationships with women in a different way than I do with men. I feel a lot of things about them, and for them, so it can be draining sometimes. When a woman is upset or sad I am more likely to feel it with her, or want to help, or really try to empathize . That’s why the emotionally light connections with male buddies are less demanding.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

            Awww, yes it does makes sense and that's sweet! I can't even make light connections with men 😆 but I can make light, medium or deep connections with women 😂 One curious thing is that I rarely make guy friends, but when I finally do, I usually am reaaaaally close to them and I'll love them do death. But I can only remember of 3 guy friends that I had in total in comparison to uncountable female friends 😂

            [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            My best friends are: 2 straight guys, 2 trans guys , bisexual woman, 1 straight atheist woman, 1 straight Christian woman

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Wow, great diversity! I loved how you said the religion from the straight women involved 🤣

            [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Just to differentiate the straights by religion, because I am an atheist and I really disagree with a lot of religious bs. But I love my friend. My other friends are not religious but not atheists either, apart from a straight woman.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            I'm also an atheist. To be very specific, I'm an agnostic atheist. I personally don't get what's the point of religion. (But I'll obviously respect someone who's religious as long as it doesn't harm anyone)

            [–]CJLez 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            I'm the opposite - I'm a very socially awkward person and around women, even if I'm not physically attracted to them personally, it feels like an important conversation and I'm on constant high-alert to 'act normal' which has the opposite effect of making me look even stranger. With men, because I'm not interested in them, I'm not too bothered by what they think about me and can relax and just be myself.

            Plus I tend to just find more men to talk to in general. I studied computing at uni and my main hobby is board gaming which are both male-dominated environments. I'm fairly geeky and tend to find more men with the same interests than I do women, though it's not as one-sided as it used to be.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Thanks for your answer! :D Yes, you're kinda diferent from me, but your answer is definitely similar to several lesbians here - are more 'awkward' with females for some reason or at least aren't so at ease, but with men it's more 'chill'. It also helps for sure to have common interests :)

            [–]RedditHatesLesbians 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

            Some of my best friends in the world have been gay men. I relate really well to them for whatever reason. I also find it easier to talk to random men on a superficial level because there's no attraction, while even an average looking woman has me a bit tongue tied lol. I always try to create more of an impression with women and impress them, while with men I just don't give a fuck, which can be freeing. But I don't hang out with men who suck.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Thanks for your answer! :D I also think gay men are usually very easy to connect with and, personally, I find the effeminate, but non-bitchy and non-histeric ones, to be very sweet.

            I always try to create more of an impression with women and impress them

            I don't really relate to this. I only feel this towards my crush or lover.

            while with men I just don't give a fuck, which can be freeing

            I do relate to this a lot, I just don't give a flying f*ck lmaooo!

            [–]plumedoomer 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            I can relate. Because I'm not emotionally sensitive and we tend to have things in common.

            I'm not attracted to masculinity either, but I'm not looking to date men and most men aren't aggressively masculine, anyway.

            I think my sexual orientation is irrelevant because I'm not dating them, so I don't see a need to bring it up.

            It's women who are usually much more difficult for me to deal with. Because they tend to be sensitive and tend to be interested in things that are completely uninteresting to me. I also don't like women to know my orientation, because they start acting crazy and thinking I'm attracted to them.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Thank you for your answer! :D

            It sounds like we're the opposite I guess and really different from each other lmao.

            [–]mangosplums 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            3) I personally don't like/can't relate to masculinity in general (and I'm even turned off by it when it comes to masculine women) and most men are masculine - more uninterest

            I'm the same. I don't like masculinity in men or women. No offense to women who are masculine, but it's just not my jam. I don't relate to men either. I feel like there's something about being a woman that they just don't understand or that they lack.

            With that said there might be some people who actually perceive me as "masculine" because I'm not really a make-up person and I wear my hair up most of the time, and I'm really casual in my clothes. I don't wear male style clothing, I wear clothes that are cut for women, they're just plain. I've had people say to me "do you even own a skirt?". Honestly this is deeply hurtful to me, and I'm not ever sure why they'd say that to me because I do dress up sometimes. The reason I dress the way I do has more to do with body insecurities and not feeling pretty, because I have PCOS, which also makes me feel masculine, which makes me feel like absolute shit, because I don't like masculinity, in either someone's physicality or personality, and I don't want to be masculine so the fact that I have PCOS is horrible to me. It gives me low self esteem and that, coupled with depression, is partially why I dress the way I do. The fact that some people seem to take that as me being "masculine" feels like absolute shit, but oh well.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Thanks for your answer :D Yes, you seem to understand me, at least for the most part :P

            Masculinity and femininity isn't just about the clothes :) It seems that you're fixating a lot on that. I'm sure you wouldn't cross as 'masculine' to me.

            The reason I dress the way I do has more to do with body insecurities and not feeling pretty

            Awww, I think you could start small. So, wearing little things that you like to see yourself with, but it's definitely something that won't be overnight. Overall, small steps.

            I'm not really a make-up person

            I love make up but I won't use it on a daily basis. I personally see make up as an art and I'd use it in speacial occasions or days to make my look more 'bright' and beautiful. I personally also like to see the natural beauty of a woman, so that's another reason I won't use it on a daily basis (because it goes directly against what I prefer lmaaao).

            I'm sure you're just fine :)

            [–]mangosplums 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            I agree that it’s not about the clothes, that’s why it annoys me when other people seem to view it that way. They’re like drawing these conclusions about me that are just way off and I don’t know where it’s coming from.

            I’m sure you’re just fine. :)

            Aw, thanks.

            [–]carrotcake 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

            Nearly all of my close friends are female but like a lot of people here, i find it easier to talk to men in a superficial level. Besides that, they sort of respect what i say more than they usually do with other women? Usually they tend to respect my advice, opinion and maybe intelect a little bit more. I have no idea why. It's really offputing to experience being heard while their fucking girlfriend isn't being listened to. That has happened since way back when everyone thought i was straight so that isn't the point.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Thanks for your answer! :D I personally think your personal experience is more of an isolated case lmao.

            It's really offputing to experience being heard while their fucking girlfriend isn't being listened to.

            Yes, I find this highly disrespectful.

            I have no idea why.

            I also (obviously) don't know, but I'm definitely hoping it's because you're very intelligent/interesting/surprising and not because of your looks lmao.

            [–]carrotcake 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Oh i wish. I've been thinking. Maybe it could be because i have brothers and know how to "speak their language" since i was little? Definitely i don't think it's because I'm that interesting. I've never thought that it could be about looks, i hope not too. I don't fit that much in beauty standards either lol I was thinking that maybe other lesbians felt that, but probably just an odd experience.

            [–]mangosplums 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Why do you think that is? Is there something about the way you present that makes them respect/listen to you more? Are you butch or femme?

            [–]carrotcake 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            I'm somewhere in the middle, closer to femme than to butch. I used to be pretty feminine. I always had some non-girly mannerisms, though (the way i sit, for example). When i wrote i thought that maybe they used to sense that I didn't have interest in them even when I wasn't out, but since it isn't a common experience i think i was probably wrong.

            [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

            4) 99% of the times, I can't be open about my sexual orientation around them, so it makes me somehow uncomfortable because I genuinely have no idea if they ever think I like them romantically or if they get that I'm just being nice to them (I feel totally clueless and I don't know 'how they perceive things')

            1000% agree with this sentiment. This has happened to me multiple times with straight men-- I get somewhat close with them (read: long talks about interesting subjects, almost none of the intense personal variety), and they all express some sort of romantic interest in me. And I'm like !!! you don't know me that well!

            The most disturbing thing about it is, I keep hearing this same belief from them, phrased in different ways:

            "If I devote a lot of time to being a girl's friend, I would only do that if I am romantically interested, and it must mean that she is interested too."

            "Men always are looking for sex/a relationship even from their platonic female friends; it is always a possibility in their minds."

            Which, to that second one, WTF. I don't sit there wanting sex with every female friend I have!!

            Right now, my closest male friends are an asexual guy, a feminine / somewhat GNC straight guy who is in a relationship, and a straight guy who is as fluent in talking about his emotions and mental health as my female friends. So, basically everything that's not that mentality.

            I think there are a few genuinely stellar men, but they're hard to find among straight men.

            Also they keep fucking talking over me. 80-90%+ of them do it. Fucking stop.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

            Thank you thank you thank you. You f*cking nailed it - that's EXACTLY it! I really have nothing to add, you explained it perfectly, finally someone who got what I tried to say in this point. In conclusion, men, ESPECIALLY straight men, are just SO different from me in so many aspects that it makes it REALLY hard to actually connect with them lmao. I don't understand their logic, how they think, why they like the things they like. They're almost like aliens to me 🤣

            Right now, my closest male friends are an asexual guy, a feminine / somewhat GNC straight guy who is in a relationship, and a straight guy who is as fluent in talking about his emotions and mental health as my female friends. So, basically everything that's not that mentality.

            Spot on! I really don't have anything to add.

            Thank you so much for your awesome answer! :D

            [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

            Awwww thank you!! :') :') I'm so glad it resonated with you.

            I could go on about this shit for ages lol. It's extremely frustrating but pretty interesting to think about.

            I don't understand their logic, how they think, why they like the things they like. They're almost like aliens to me

            Well, idk if this will help but I think about it like this. Masculinity is a subtype of narcissism. Narcissism, generally speaking, is the adherence to an arbitrary hierarchy of value. If you "buy in" to this belief system, then you get compared to all the other people who "buy in" to it. (They'll compare you anyway even if you don't buy in, but that just makes them sad, sad human beings, lol.) With masculinity, the form of "currency" in the belief system is things that are rough, abrasive, solitary, aggressive, independent, etc... insert your gender stereotypes here. Quite frankly, religion is a good parallel comparison. Like with Christianity-- your "purity" is never certain, you have to keep doing shit to defend it (like praying, or hitting yourself, or whatever). With masculinity, your "manliness" is never certain. There are like, great articles and papers and shit about how easy it is to lose your "I'm a man" card, etc.

            The only way to win is not to play-- that is, in this context, for men to not give a shit about the whole "masculinity" thing and just do what they like, follow the hobbies they like, etc. The problem is that there are real social ostracization consequences for this. The somewhat-GNC guy I know-- he is actually not that feminine. But people keep calling him gay. You wanna know why? Because he has good fashion taste. That's LITERALLY it. It's not like he wears hot pink and feather boas. They just think he's gay because he dresses well. WTF.

            You said men confuse you. I think the fundamental difference between men and women's experience of gender oppression, is that women are so often "scapegoated" that they are more easily able to say, "This shit sucks. I'm out." We have boatloads of the worst negative outcomes linked to our gender's stereotypes-- worse sexual and physical assault rates, murders, etc. The negative effects on men are more insidious, less obvious. So they run in the hamster wheel longer than us, I think, on average. The whole thing sucks.

            Lol that turned into a rant I did not intend, sorry haha. Hopefully someone'll find something useful in there.

            edit: just realized my fashion comments might come across as rude towards gay men; I meant them as examples of exaggerated femininity, not what gay men actually wear! Just to be clear.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            Masculinity is a subtype of narcissism.

            I don't think masculinity is inherently bad. If you had said "toxic masculinity" instead of just masculinity I would've agreed with you. Both masculinity and femininity aren't inherently bad. But also both masculinity and femininity can be toxic. Women can also be really toxic too.

            Because many men engage in 'toxic masculinity' I'll have real trouble connecting. But when a man is able to 'get out of it' and is able to talk about his emotions and he's mature, it makes it a little bit easier for me to relate. But still, men with whom I realte with are definitely more an exception than a rule.

            [–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            That's okay if you don't agree :)

            I mean, for example, I don't think women who display masculine traits are narcissistic, or that guys who do are! But rather, that this whole framework we have about labeling some traits "masculine" and then those are viewed positively-- independence, leadership, even intelligence in some contexts-- and we label some traits "feminine" and then those are viewed as negative, or positive only when they are submissive-- e.g. being harmonious, weak, gentle-- is messed up. I don't think it's bad at all that people have those traits. I think that "masculine" and "feminine" are ways of judging those traits, and they are ways of forcing certain traits on individuals who may not necessarily want them.

            I guess I have trouble seeing what the terms "masculine" and "feminine" are outside of a bunch of stereotypes that are based on sex. If we could have a world where I call a woman independent, or authoritative, or powerful, and people don't perceive her as masculine-- which happens often today to women in power, for example-- that would be awesome, in my opinion.

            Also, yes, I totally agree that women can be very toxic, and that men who are able to talk about their emotions are refreshing. I personally believe those things are true and exist alongside my other beliefs.

            [–]oofreesouloo[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            I understand where youre coming from and I do agree that those notions of masculinity and femininity aren't good. For me personally, masculinity and femininity is more related to your body language, the way you show your emotions and how you engage in social situations and not personality traits per se. This is how I see it, i don't mean to say this is the universal meaning and definitely not how everyone sees it. (as there are still plenty of sexist people out there)

            EDIT: I personally love femmes with strong character and who are assertive. Because these women challenge the sexist notion that femininity is 'weak' and 'submissive' or 'obedient'. Watching a feminine woman challenging that is one of the hottest things for me to watch lmao. This is just a personal taste of mine though.

            [–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            For me personally, masculinity and femininity is more related to your body language, the way you show your emotions and how you engage in social situations

            Ah, okay. I just included all that under "personality traits". It sounds like we have pretty similar mindsets overall, otherwise. And honestly, my views on all this are all growing still, so who knows, maybe I will have a mentality more like yours in a year. :)

            That's legit haha, I agree. It's a turn-on for me too.

            [–]Liz-B-Anne 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Yep, but then I'm autistic so I can't relate to humans very well in general lol. But I'd absolutely live on an island free of men if given the chance. I'm a female separatist & not ashamed to say so. Crime rates would plummet without males...violent crime, the only kind that really matters. So yeah. I'm all for MGTOW if WGTOW too.