DiscussionIf women ran the world...

submitted by [deleted] from self.LGBDropTheT

Would the homophobia that is directed towards lesbians become worse? Seeing how the 95%+ of non-homosexual women treat us and how straight men treat gay men, I think it would be worse. Our situations and problems would just be flipped around.

Just to be clear, I am only speaking about homophobia here. If straight men have no problem being absolutely terrible to gay men, what makes straight women any better? Especially considering how many gay children are treated at home being brought up by their homophobic religious mothers.

This post is inspired by the comments made by u/exponent2 btw.

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[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

I think homophobia would be no more or less prevalent, just different.

Some straight women, particularly so-called "political lesbians", seem to view female homosexuality with a sort of benevolent-homophobia lens, similarly to how many TRAs do-- "it's so OPEN-MINDED to be a lesbian!" "Being lesbian is a choice that everybody should make!" etc. Ascribing character judgments on the basis of sexual orientation, and suggesting that sexual orientation is a choice. On the other hand, there are the heterosexual women who treat same-sex-attracted women like a disease; that's been more of my personal experience.

There is some sort of myth that women are "better" and "kinder" and "more caring" than men, so therefore they should run the world... that's some benevolent sexism bullshit. I don't think homophobia would be way less of a problem with women running the world, it would just be a different problem. The fact is, LGB people are naturally a statistical minority and so we're always going to be at a disadvantage because of that. (The same way that women are at a disadvantage compared to men because on average, they're noticeably physically weaker.)

Power-seeking groups of humans often see a smaller group as a prime target from which to steal resources and unify against; that fact alone may breed homophobia, even in the most fair, thoughtful, and ideal societies. That's just my opinion.

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Also, exponent2 is making broad generalizations about lesbians. Most lesbians are not radical feminists, and radical feminism has harmed lesbians as well as gay men.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (14 children)

Saying he is making "broad generalizations about lesbians" doesn't mean that many lesbians (or at least people who claim to be us) online don't act that way. I feel like all groups (but lesbians specifically) should listen to outside perspectives on us, especially since we are such a tiny minority. We should see how the homophobes speak about us, so we can have better reactions, and we need to hear how gay men view us since they are our opposites, just erase whatever misogyny you feel you have read, and see if there is anything valuable there.

I do feel like lesbian center our activism too much on stuff that directly benefits straight/bi women and not us; and in turn neither of those groups have helped us get to where we are, but gay men have since we do benefit off their work. Like I am a black lesbian, and many black lesbians of history (specifically Black-American btw) have been incredible writers and have contributed a lot to womenkind Audre Lorde, Pat Parker, Lorraine Hansberry, etc. It doesn't shame me to say as an 2nd gen African in Canada NOT the States, to say that I have the privilege of benefitting greatly off of the work they and other Black Americans did for themselves, I just showed up after the fact and was born in the west. All I am saying is that if gay white men did not exist, I find it very hard to believe that gay marriage would be legal here or gay people would have made the strides they have. Not because I think that being a white dude makes one an innately better human being, but they have power, and it just so happens that I, a homosexual, do benefit off of that. If it was just us lesbians alone and gay men did not exist, do you think we could have ever gotten married? We would be treated way worse than we are.

In the centuries and centuries of homosexual oppression, when have straight mothers as a collective, turned around to their lesbians daughters and treated them nicely, just cuz they are both women. Never. Womens rights are important but the 98% of women that arent lesbians can handle it, while we focus on homosexual issues.

It might be more clear to me because my community is super f-ing homophobic and wouldn't dream of doing shit for the gays; and I just so happen to have the privilege of being born in a super liberal country that values the rights of homosexuals, for now. I don't think you are wrong at all, you are both right and its fine that he pointed out a problem within us. It benefits us.

If we dont listen to criticism, even if its harsh, we end up looking just like the TRA's, who have have a better pr campaign than us anyways. Rather than constantly hating on TRA's for their stupidity, maybe we should just study them and figure out how they did it, so we can take our shit back. The flag stuff is stupid when we got the rainbow, and saying "lesbophobia" instead of "homophobia" detracts from our collective issues and us having allies. How did the TRA's get where they are? Well for one thing, they had a repetitive slogan "TWAW" think "peace, land, bread" which helps with marketing. We need more consistency, part of activism is working with people on issues you agree with rather than arguing with gay men about stupid things like misogyny. There is a reason why straight women flock to having gay male friends, they aren't frightening and use homophobia to put them in their place. Gay men arent out here abusing anything but the ego's of women, thats it. Straight women will sit there and argue with gay men about "offensive language" while they are getting sexually abused by the straight/bisexual men of their own communities.

I think we are too busy trying to spite the transes and are failing miserably. The conservatives women will just take over where we left off (see "irreversible damage") and take all the credit and can then use the platforms we created to start being homophobic af. But since they are straight women, they will be listened to, unlike us.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Saying he is making "broad generalizations about lesbians" doesn't mean that many lesbians (or at least people who claim to be us) online don't act that way.

  1. Yes, many people who claim to be us may be this way-- that doesn't mean it IS us! It's unfair to condemn female homosexuals because some straight women decided to LARP as lesbians for political reasons. It would be just as unfair to judge lesbians by the AGP men on r/actuallesbians.

  2. He still is making broad generalizations and that is against one of this sub's rules:

  1. General Guidelines / Civility: All LGB are welcome here. Be respectful of each other's differences. Discuss ideas, not individuals. No broad generalizations.

Even if some lesbians are that way, that is no justification to suggest that all are. For example, some number of gay men are misogynistic assholes, but it would be rude and unfair of me to say, "gay men are misognyistic assholes" because that suggests that they all are.

We should see how the homophobes speak about us, so we can have better reactions

I'm sorry, but what does this even mean? Are you suggesting he is a homophobe...? I've had plenty of homophobia already directed my way, thanks, I don't need to hear more from some random person on the internet.

and we need to hear how gay men view us since they are our opposites, just erase whatever misogyny you feel you have read

Nope, I'm going to call out anyone who says something illogical or hypocritical, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the rest of their claims. I even call out people I like, and I hope they call me out when I make a mistake, too. You are personally free to stay silent when someone says something misogynistic or illogical, if that makes you happier. Also, this dude doesn't speak for all gay men.

and see if there is anything valuable there.

I can call out the illogical parts of what exponent2 said as illogical, and simultaneously agree with parts of what he is saying. Those are not mutually exclusive.

...I just showed up after the fact and was born in the west. All I am saying is that if gay white men did not exist, I find it very hard to believe that gay marriage would be legal here or gay people would have made the strides they have.

I agree and feel similarly; but I don't see anyone disagreeing with this, so what's the issue?

Never. Womens rights are important but the 98% of women that arent lesbians can handle it, while we focus on homosexual issues.

I can care about women's rights if I damn please, or not care. This is not all or nothing lol. It is possible to a) care about LGB rights, b) also care about women's rights, all while also c) not pretending that being lesbian is a "noble choice" (the radfems' approach). I would argue that it is important for at least some lesbians, those who have the energy for it, to be involved in women's rights activism because some heterosexual women are homophobic, and will try to condemn us and speak over us. But that doesn't mean that "being lesbian IS itself fundamentally a women's rights issue," that's bullshit.

If we dont listen to criticism, even if its harsh, we end up looking just like the TRA's, who have have a better pr campaign than us anyways.

Sweeping generalizations and ad hominems are not logical criticism, they're insults. This is Saidit, we are free to criticize each other and engage of dialogue but we do so following the Pyramid of Debate and exponent2 keeps making these sweeping generalizations about lesbians. You know what actually makes a person end up looking like a TRA? Judging female homosexuals' characters on the basis of their sexual orientation... like how exponent2 keeps doing.

part of activism is working with people on issues you agree with rather than arguing with gay men about stupid things like misogyny.

If any person says something illogical and hypocritical, it ought to be called out, and if a gay man says something misogynistic and inaccurate then I will still call it out as being inaccurate and ridiculous even though he is gay. I do not have to suck it up and smile when anyone is being misogynistic, same as I don't have to suck it up and smile when anyone is being homophobic. What kind of bullshit is that? You're free to do that if it makes you happy but expecting other women to is laughable. I just want to be treated equally-- equally regardless of sexual orientation AND equally regardless of sex.

Gay men arent out here abusing anything but the ego's of women,

What is this black-and-white world you live in, where lesbians are evil problem-causers and gay men do no wrong? We are all humans and equally capable of mistakes, bigotry, and kindness. Many gay men are chill, some are bigoted assholes; many lesbian women are chill, some are bigoted assholes. And no, sweeping generalizations and misogynistic comments are not just "abusing women's egos," they are about judging women's character qualities on the basis of sex. And that's some narcissistic bullshit.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Thanks for replying. I enjoy reading your comments on this forum.

I dont think gay men do not do wrong and cant be misogynistic. I just their misogyny is so incomparable to that of straight and bisexual men that they arent that much of a worry. So Ill just personally choose to ignore it, if you dont then thats your choice. But having this bickering between lesbians and gay men about this stuff instead of uniting over a common goal does harm, especially since they (gay men) have more power than us. Thats how online (at least in my tiny ethnic community) LGBT people regardless of politics arent really fighting one another publicly cuz its useless in comparision to religious straight people. Thats also why the trans activists shut up when their bs hits straight people too hard; "superstraight" was able to flourish even tho lesbians been complaining about this shit for a decade. I just think we are throwing away some of our allies but pointing out every little thing that could possibly be concieved as "wrong".

I think he made valuable points about the how the original splintering within the community was probably cause by lesbians, I need to read up on it more tho.

The rights of women have made incredible enhancements thanks to lesbians. But how have straight women turned around and collectively helped our issues? Especially relating to the "cotton ceiling" bs before TRA's started coming for their rights too. Did straight women, who have hetero privilege, turn around and stop the transes from taking over our tiny community in thanks for all that lesbians have done for them. NO. They sat there and lectured us about "acceptance".

I just read the past comment from a lesbian who was talking about us giving "superior orgasms"...to straight women. Why should we honestly give af about their sex lives? I think lesbians care, I think we care too much about straight women. For some reason we talk as if our humanity should only be acknowledged or only seen as valuable for the stuff that we do for other people (mostly other women), and not ourselves.

Edit: When I said we should see how all homophobes speak about us so we can better react to them, I mean that sometimes we do let people (I was speaking about women) off of the hook when it comes to homophobia. You probably feel the same way about me and misogyny lol

I saw an old article about this and if I can find it Ill send it to you later, if thats okay. But basically said when Republican politicians were being homophobic the fact that they were republican was normally a highlight to the article. But when a democrat was homophobic, papers would leave that out. Because all gays should be democrats according to them. Even though I am gay and I am a liberal, I think that type of thinking alienates republican gays who could be our allies. Think of how Dave Rubin gets talked down to sometimes by liberals for being gay.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The rights of women have made incredible enhancements thanks to lesbians. But how have straight women turned around and collectively helped our issues? Especially relating to the "cotton ceiling" bs before TRA's started coming for their rights too. Did straight women, who have hetero privilege, turn around and stop the transes from taking over our tiny community in thanks for all that lesbians have done for them. NO. They sat there and lectured us about "acceptance".>>

i think this is a very important point... and touches on intersectionality, are you woman first or lesbian first? because there are alot of straight women not helping with the biggest lesbian issue, and that is the assault from the TRA's. Too many straight women on the side of the TRA's.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s hard for me to lay this at the feet of straight women. I see liberal women and men en masse ignoring lesbians on this including liberal lesbian women, liberal gay men, and liberal straight men. I’ve found it a lot easier to talk with straight women I’m close to about this. There’s a visibility problem. They don’t even know it’s happening. I think the hardest people to raise these issues with are other lesbians and straight liberal men.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am a lesbian first. The first thing homophobic non-lesbians do is try to seperate us from our womenhood. They can keep their shitty gender roles for all I care. Ill be a dyke.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks.

I just think we are throwing away some of our allies but pointing out every little thing that could possibly be concieved as "wrong".

I understand that concern. I do think that expecting some sort of purity test for this community is not only harmful but just unrealistic. That said, I have no problems calling out ridiculous comments that are individual since this is a discussion board. And, I think it is kinda hypocritical to say, "we shouldn't stereotype people based on same-sex attraction" (homophobia) but then turn around and say "it's fine to stereotype people based on sex" (misogyny).

But how have straight women turned around and collectively helped our issues? Especially relating to the "cotton ceiling" bs before TRA's started coming for their rights too. Did straight women, who have hetero privilege, turn around and stop the transes from taking over our tiny community in thanks for all that lesbians have done for them. NO. They sat there and lectured us about "acceptance".

I generally agree with you there, but I would add-- some straight women actually infiltrated lesbian communities, and claimed that being lesbian is a brave choice to break away from society. I don't really mind if exponent2 or anyone else complains about radfems, or about what I guess could be called the "lesbian movement" which radfems comandeered, but it's misleading to not acknowledge how this came about-- which is thanks to so-called "political lesbians" who are mostly straight women.

I just read the past comment from a lesbian who was talking about us giving "superior orgasms"...to straight women. Why should we honestly give af about their sex lives?

That's not what she said, she said:

we have superior skills giving women orgasms

She didn't say straight women, she said women, i.e. bisexual/lesbian women. I'm not sure whether or not I agree that lesbians actually do give better orgasms to lesbian/bisexual women than men give to straight women-- I'm not straight so I wouldn't know-- but that is a misquote.

I saw an old article about this and if I can find it Ill send it to you later, if thats okay.

Yeah totally, go for it. I actually saw a similar article to the one you described, if you want me to send it to you, lol.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ill try to look for the article later, Ill send it to you directly if I find it.

But Ill repeat that in the context of my post relating to homophobia. Srry if I just understood her words wrong I really thought she was talking about straight women since they are the majority and would hold power (she also didnt clairfy on whether or not she was only speaking about bi women before I blocked her)...but given your assumption how on earth do lesbians giving great orgasms to other lesbian and bisexual women; have anything to do with homophobia and our place in the world. Women are still homophobic now, and we (lesbians) have been having sex with at least some bi women, since forever so how would that give us power, thats just fantasy.

Im sure gay men have great sex with one another, but has that ever helped them out with getting more bi-male activist support. Nope. Im sure there are more bi men in the world than gay men; but as a collective when have bi men ever risked it in support of gay men despite of having the benefit of living in a patriarchy.

Why did it take a politician like Andrew Gullium, getting caught naked on drugs cheating on his wife, to come out as bisexual, if we still live in a patriarchy. If we lived in a matriarchy, why would straight women or bi women be on our side as lesbians? I mean many of them arent on our side now with the trans bs, even though many of the most effective feminists were lesbians. Straight women wanted us OUT of the feminist movement prior to the 70's because they didnt want to be mistaken as us. Then the 70's rolled around and many straight and bi women felt comfortable co-opting our identity for their own gain. Look up the history of the Lavender Menance and why it was created, non-homo feminists historically have hated on lesbians a lot. They wanted absolutely nothing to do with our "perversion" (homosexuality) or our issues facing us as a community. They still dont care (some just pretend), but would like our energy (since we make better feminists) redirected into help them and their needs. Homophobic women have no problem smiling at a lesbian, to later backstab her, when they want something. Why would straight women re-label themselves as us for no reason, unless they were taking up many of the ideas that came to us naturally? Keeping in mind the wanted nothing to do with us before.

We see how gay men get treated everyday by straight men; how are women inherently better? When we say that women would be better, we basically belittle all the issues that gay men face DESPITE growing up in a patriarchy.

Please watch this video, its a rad fem lesbians talking about other non-lesbians radfem co-opting our experiences and identity. They have done this before:

https://youtu.be/ywmbv3Q3UxI

Look how r/femaledatingstrategy (with many rad fem ideas) pretends to care about lesbians while deleting posts that would help wlw.

Link:https://www.reddit.com/r/LesbianDatingStrategy/comments/m9fdxg/beware_this_is_plain_bs_right_here_beware_ladies/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

but given your assumption how on earth do lesbians giving great orgasms to other lesbian and bisexual women; have anything to do with homophobia and our place in the world.

Agreed.

Then the 70's rolled around and many straight and bi women felt comfortable co-opting our identity for their own gain. Look up the history of the Lavender Menance and why it was created, non-homo feminists historically have hated on lesbians a lot. They wanted absolutely nothing to do with our "perversion" (homosexuality) or our issues facing us as a community.

Yes, exactly! This is what I was trying to talk about.

They still dont care (some just pretend), but would like our energy (since we make better feminists)

I don't see why lesbians would make better feminists. I suppose it is possible that lesbians are less prone to underestimating male violence, since our demographic is sexually assaulted at like twice the rate of straight women, and therefore are "better" feminists.

We see how gay men get treated everyday by straight men; how are women inherently better?

You are preaching to the choir.

When we say that women would be better, we basically belittle all the issues that gay men face DESPITE growing up in a patriarchy.

I would also call that benevolent sexism towards women. Not sure I'm convinced that I live in a patriarchy, though (I'm in the US; there are some users here from the Middle East, so I won't speak for them).

I'll take a look, thanks. I have avoided FDS because it seemed toxic but I didn't realize it had radfem links.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The ideas that lesbians put forth make (or made) us better feminists because we can see through the gender roles that are indoctrinated into young girls since birth, much more easily than straight women. That why a few strange straight/bi women STILL think of lesbianism as some sort of strange "enlightenment" to this day. We are more likely to stick to our principles and put more effort in because out of all women, we get screwed over the most in a patriarchy.

I dont think its wrong at all to think that one doesnt live in a patriarchy even though they live in the US. That still doesnt change the fact that men get paid more than women for the same work or that men hold more political and economic power. When I said "patriarchy" I dont mean only women living in a theocracy. You can still grow up with patriarchal concepts and ideas made by man- see religion and religious homophobia which can affect a persons daily life. Men are also physically stronger than women and can force themselves or their ideas onto them that way. No, I wouldnt compare it to someone's life in a different country tho because that is more extreme.

Part of why we keep getting called "mannish" by the straights because we dont benefit from adhering to their gender roles. The first thing a homophobic woman does is attack a lesbians relationship to womenhood because we are more comfortable not following the gender norms that they have set in place for themselves. We usually only use the term "gnc" to describe butches and studs among the lesbian community. But technically, we are ALL gender non-conforming by virtue of being homosexuals. It doesnt benefit us as much to play into gender, but it messes up straight women too, even tho many of them fight to keep the norms in place.

We were more capable of pointing out bs in the ways that straight women and men relate to one another since we arent them and dont want to be like them.

[–]exponent2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

You dont seem particularly insane and the broad generalizations are accurate because the pattern is...general. The overwhelming majority of lesbians keep forgetting that straight women are heterosexuals. How many ways are lesbians going to find ways to split off from gay men in the stupidest ways possible and constantly create weak links within the homosexual community. They even made up their own stupid flag and that ended up creating 60000 more flags for every idiotic group. And the whole "lesbo-phobia" thing distorts so much when discussing homophobia. And if lesbophobia exists, then it infers gay-a-phobia exists. Do people not see what a waste of fucking stupid time this separatism is?

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Why do you hate lesbians so much? Do you think they're the cause of all of LGBs woes? Nearly every comment you make is about how much lesbians suck because they're all radfems (they're not), or that they do things to ruin LGB, such as make their own flag and want to separate.

On the subject of lesbophobia, I do think it's a thing, as well as what you call gay-a-phobia. For example, straight women I've spoken to who show homophobia were often homophobic towards lesbians and bisexual women (often predatory in their minds), but had gay male friends that they clearly didn't feel were a threat in any way. The same way, straight men can find feminine lesbians 'hot', but can on the other hand despise gay men and see them as predatory. There is a pattern, wouldn't you say? These people are only homophobic towards one sex but see no threat in the other. Ergo, separate phobias.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You dont seem particularly insane

Thanks lmao.

the broad generalizations are accurate because the pattern is...general.

I really think you might be mistaking some of those "lesbians" when they may actually just be radfem straight women who pretend to be lesbian because they think it's a "noble choice" for them to make. Unfortunately, straight women can talk over us just the same as men in dresses can talk over us, because female homosexuality (like male homosexuality) is a statistical minority.

The overwhelming majority of lesbians keep forgetting that straight women are heterosexuals.

I'm curious, who are you talking about when you say this? Most self-described lesbians I've talked to on saidit do understand that straight women are heterosexual. If you're talking about the LARPers on Reddit, well, most of them are actually AGP men, and of the women, many are of the "spicy straight" persuasion, unfortunately.

Do people not see what a waste of fucking stupid time this separatism is?

To be honest, I completely agree with you. I have yet to hear a good argument for why we should "get the L out" for example. I appreciate hearing gay and bisexual men's experiences and while I also see the need for spaces specific to each sexual orientation-- e.g. having bars for gay men as well as bars for lesbian women-- I think it makes sense to have a united front for same-sex rights.

[–]exponent2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've been on ovarit. And when i mean "been on ovarit", i mean i've read almost every single comment on every single post there.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

i think you are confusing lesbians ans sjw's. Not all sjw's are lesbians. They are straight women, straight guys and even gay men who are pushing the gender garbage on us.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But Ovarit is a site for radical feminists, not specifically lesbians. That's where the GenderCritical crowd went after getting banned (besides s/GenderCritical). I think there is a lesbian group on there but that's only a minority of lesbians, anyway.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly

[–]censorshipment 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

Especially considering how many gay children are treated at home being brought up by their homophobic religious mothers.

Why do you believe mothers would be religious? Religions are patriarchal. Women wouldn't worship male deities, if women ruled the world, imo.

[–]exponent2 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

..... women are even more religious and insane than the heterosexual men. They've just never been given a chance at power to express their stupidity. You VERY WELL know that a lot of lesbians are abandoning our culture...you know, the culture that gave us right? The enlightenment that created the superiority of western civilization and its culture? Theyre into "witch craft", zodiac signs, garbage, more garbage, "mystical healing", gwenyth paltrow. This is how we keep destroying ourselves. And these idiots are extremely matriarchal. They sound EXACTLY like straight men. "nature is feminine energy....femininity is MYSTICAL" These women sound even dumber than their male counterparts. You want to explain that? THIS is why homosexuals need our own culture so people like you cant infect younger lesbians with this garbage.

[–]julesburm1891 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There’s a science fiction book called The Power by Naomi Alderman. The premise is that all the women of the world wake up one morning to find they can generate electricity with their hands and, consequently, have more physical power than men. Women end up taking over and the world is just as fucked up. I really think this is probably the best idea of what would happen if we were in charge—the same garbage, just different packaging.

So, yeah. I think we’d still see the same amount of homophobia if women ran things.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Loved that one. Especially the frame story, where it's a man tentatively presenting the narrative to his female editor, who laughs it off because 'who's ever heard of a story where men are strong and in charge???'

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for your comment and I will def look into reading that book :)

[–]MagnoliaxMirageSuperfemme 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Huh that's different. If the sexism as feminine=submission=woman and women were in power it might affect how people view gay men. In the sense of when people think of gay men they mainly think feminine=submission.

As for women, maybe there would be less fakebians? Since women wouldn't need to perform for men.

This is an interesting question.

[–]exponent2 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (12 children)

Reply 1 . It would be worse. Lesbians seem really clueless because theyre engulfed with and squandered all their time investing in "womanhood", not understanding how reality and politics work since theyre so obnoxiously insular. And they genuinely have no sense of culture or worldly perspective to see how an actual patriarchy works. Theyre too self centered. They seriously think gay males, you know "traitors" to the patriarchy for being homosexuals, somehow benefit from it. In all countries with true, authentic patriarchies, gay men are executed for being abominations and lesbians are just left alone as mere curiosities or theories. Lesbians put all their energy into thinking liberating themselves from heterosexual men would mean they would be free...and assumed heterosexual women wouldnt oppress them? They just keep forgetting theyre homosexuals and for 2000 years, heterosexuals have been trying to commit genocide against all homosexuals.

I already posted this before and i dont want to type it all out again but it's a back and forth i had with a lesbian on here so it's not fully within context of the question but here it is and it reveals how naive lesbians are with what a matriarchy would look like.

my not so very nice comment and back and forth with a lesbian on here:

"One thing lesbians wont tell you is how they basically destroyed the gay community with their narcssism. They always chose "womanhood" over their homosexuality and always tried to leave gay men behind...and when that didnt work, they "lost their place" and squandered all their efforts and never really took part in building up the gay community. So they project this on to gay men...but gay men couldnt build a "manly man paradise" with the straight men since they were the ones murdering us.

So the lesbians came crawling back to their "homosexual identity" begrudgingly since the straight and bisexual women wouldnt stop laughing at them behind their backs and betraying them for "men" and ruining their perfect little lesbian utopia.

Stonewall UK and multiple gay lobby groups were exclusively run by gay men. The lesbians werent kept out..they honestly just werent successful enough to run them. It took lots of money, networking and power and the gay lobby just represented homosexual interests. The lesbians came in (by doing exactly what transbians did) and used intersectional feminism to call everyone a racist, invaded the Stonewall UK gay group and formed coalitions with a bunch of people to betray gay people.THIS is the origin story of the transexual disaster. Now that these idiots invaded stonewall, guess what happened? The black lesbians betrayed the white lesbians and kicked them out...then their intersecitonal "whoever is the biggest victim gets all the money and attention" went to the black lesbians (you know, because black gay men arent the biggest victims of homophobia)...and then our community was no longer about gay and lesbian success, prosperity and power. It was about whomever whines the most gets the most attention. And guess what? The biggest winner in that case is the biggest liar so our emperor of the gays and lesbians was a black, transexual, 2 legged, wheel chair bound straight man who "identifies" as a lesbian lol. THIS is the origin story of how these people hijacked our movement.

So dont listen to these "radical feminist" types. Again, theyre mostly a useless joke.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Who here has ever said that gay males benefit from the patriarchy? Perhaps in some senses, but in many others, such as the pressure to have a nuclear family with a woman, the pressure to be masculine (but somehow gay men are considered unmasculine which makes no sense), and to go to war (which can be difficult for gay men if the people they're stuck with know and despise the fact that they're gay).

At no point have I ever seen lesbians say that gay men benefit from the patriarchy, just radfems, which don't always equate to being lesbians. Most radfems are straight, not to mention political lesbians who are also straight but often drop the political from their title and speak for us. I'm not saying no lesbians say this or believe this, but gay men usually aren't at the top of our priorities when we've got straight men and transbians (straight men again) to deal with.

[–]exponent2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

here's what your fellow psychotic lesbian typed. She's not a "rad fem"..just a regular lesbian. Im sure she wasnt masturbating while typing this shit: I personally haven't experienced that much homophobia from non-homosexual women. Occasionally, I will run into a myopic bisexual who insists that everyone in the world is secretly bi. But even the religious heterosexual women I encounter in my everyday life have not been homophobic towards me, though they have every reason to be. Then again, I live in the US.

I think if women ruled the world, there would probably be less homophobia towards lesbians because we have superior skills giving women orgasms, and they wouldn't see us as "violating the natural order" by refusing to spread our legs for men. Women also do not view sex as a form of "conquest" and therefore, do not have that nasty tendency to look down on everyone they "conquer." Lesbian could also serve as additional help in the task of childrearing, as we don't generally get pregnant by accident and can be trusted around children. Lesbians also have a tendency to be very handy, self-sufficient, which would be necessary in a woman-centered society."

Just go ahead and interact with this lunatic. Go ahead, lets see how you two talk back and forth. She's in the comment section here. Again, learn to grow up and stop being such a gigantic burden on the homosexual community.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You sure that's not a man LARPing as a lesbian though? There's nothing stopping anyone from joining, right?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I love how we are suddenly going to pretend that lesbian mothers didnt have their children taken away from them in the west for being homosexuals not too long ago. Was it masses of straight women protesting outside of the courts on the behalf of lesbian mums in the 50's?

I wonder how they feel about lesbian mums that use ivf and do not adopt; but Im too tired for that discussion.

[–]exponent2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (7 children)

look, i'm not saying this to flatter you but you seem like you have a much higher intelligence than most. Not because i find you agreeing with me, but because you parse through information and sources through paragraphs from people who havent let go of their frustration and anger and you look passed the immature emotions to see the points others have made when they could have clearly done a better job. If you're having trouble seeing if the lesbians you're with are on the right or wrong path, just try imagining a gay guy saying what that older lesbian said and if it sounds utterly insane to you, then stay away from them, ignore them or try to convert them. Like, what that imbecile said to you was insane so imagine if I said it: "the patriarchy is good. Gay guys give THE BEST blowjobs and THE BEST orgasms. We make the best uncles and if we lick the feet of straight men, they will help us. Did you know the patriarchy is amazing? It organize society into castes and straight men are amazing "warriors", theyre so strong and they show mercy to those who live under their feet"....i mean, do you see how seriously irredeemable some of these women are? NOW you understand whats wrong with them. Theyre broken, creepy perverts and you dont have to worry. These are old lesbians you're talking to. She might as well have been masturbating as she was talking to you. Im glad you had this experience. Because now you understand the disgust, anger and inability for gay people to forgive these creepy older lesbians for the kind of creepy things they do or say. Gay guys can be sexual but my god...the older lesbians you're talking to are too busy furiously masturbating to care about the younger generation. They hide behind the thin veneer of "we're women so we must not be as insane as the men" but i think you're experiencing it here. And i hate how the younger lesbians get so confused, defeated and broken because theyre taught to go to the heterosexual and bisexual women who end up "teaching them their place"...and the creepy older lesbians are masturbating to some fantasy they want to feed young innocent lesbian kids. Jesus. See why gays are disgusted by them? While we were busy getting stabbed in the streets fighting for homosexual rights...these people were masturbating to fantasies of "serving straight women". Can you IMAGINE if gay people were doing shit like that?

You're a good person, and very intelligent. Dont get demoralized because it's not just you. Some other lesbians (the young ones...the older ones are hopeless) are starting to REALLY understand theyre homosexuals first. And you think too highly of Trans rights activists. Theyre incapable of doing anything. No one knows theyre our enemies because heterosexuals are clueless. They Trans rights people were only able to invade because the older lesbians were too busy sabotaging gay rights lobbies and charities to invade them after gay men did all the work...and the second they successfully sabotaged all these organizations by calling them racist and sexist (they werent), then the transexuals immediately elbowed their way into them because gay men left in droves, took their billions and called it quits. So the problem isnt transexual power (they have none), it's gay and lesbian disunity.

[–]exponent2 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

REPLY 2. comment 2:I've browsed through ovarit. I've seen the differences in how they deal with homophobia towards gay males and lesbians. And there's no such thing as "lesbophobia"..thats literally another horrificly stupid invention by lesbians that creates systemic disasters. Their flag is a joke. Their flag is garbage. Their fake funny little flag should be burned right in front of their faces. It's their narcissism that causes problems for gays and lesbians. They just come off as utter idiots who never learn from history or their mistakes. They rainbow flag is the flag of gays and lesbians...the flag of gay and lesbian rights. It is internationally recognized all over the world. EVERYWHERE. It is more recognized than some powerful countries. It is what unites us. And what do these imbeciles do? They go on and create a special, useless, worthless little flag for their lesbian vaginas. And did it help them? NOPE. What did it do? It created ANOTHER systemic disaster for them AND gays. Now everyone has a flag and demands it be recognized. Asexual flags, feet-sexual flags. And in regards to "lesbophobia"...the word homophobia is over 100 years old and has over a century of academic research behind it. It's one of the most studied complex psychological phenomenon to be documented and understood. Lesbians are homosexuals. Ok, so what do these idiots do? "we need to create ANOTHER systemic, apocalyptic disaster for gays and lesbians and undo over 100 years worth of stuggles! we no longer experience HOMOPHOBIA..we experience lesbophobia!"...and what happened to these imbeciles? They were drowned out because now EVERYTHING is a phobia. Ace-a-phobia, bi-phobia (which isnt even a thing), panphobia... and idiot-phobia (you) for even using that word as if it means something.

Lesbians have caused disaster after disaster after disaster for one VERY specific reason they think gays dont know about. They HIGHLY benefit from gays and their activism, money and work but 100% of their energy hasnt gone into homosexual rights. They never believed in homosexual rights. What they believed in was creating some sort of fantasy matriarchy where they can be the rulers of bisexual women, straight women, fat women and gay men have always noticed this. I never understood why gays and lesbians never liked each other in the past because what could possibly divide them when theyre both being murdered for being homosexuals...but apparently the lesbians were too busy planning a fantasy utopia. And they got it. They achieved their fantasy utopia...on twitter. Where theyre being eaten alive and torn into pieces, laughed at, humiliated, destroyed piece by piece and its their own doing. The bisexual women think theyre a complete and utter joke...i guess lesbians forgot the horrors of homophobia and forgot the journey one must go through to accept being homosexual or engaging in a same sex marriage..people staring, spitting on the street. Again, they keep forgetting theyre homosexuals. Not a single bisexual would be crazy enough to accept that journey of indignity to forge a better path for lesbians in the future because why would they? Thats not their issue. The lesbians used gay money and resources to channel them into rape crisis centers for heterosexual women instead of gay and lesbian children kicked out for being gay...why? That was useless and builds no good will. Theyre trying to perfect and solve the problems of heterosexuals?? If you asked some woman's charity to help with gay and lesbian issues...the bisexual and straight women would laugh and spit in your face. Again, lesbians need to experience more homophobia to get the point. The lesbians got EXACTLY what they wanted; their garbage kingdom. They sort of forgot everyone would see them as jesters and clowns instead of the kings they thought they were and yes, they'll have a hard time crawling back and finally admitting theyre homosexuals....eating crow and accepting the privileges that they got because gay people were too busy focusing on our rights rather than off playing fantasy idiot games.

They always create weak points within the homosexual community because everything is always done for them and they forgot the homophobia that exists since under the patriarchy, gay men are the biggest victims since theyre considered traitors to the patriarchy for even being born gay. But when the homophobia comes for lesbians and the homophobes, bisexuals and start snarling and biting off the flesh off their faces...they'll get little sympathy from many gay people for how they sabotaged our community. The AGP straight male transbians arent super geniuses. Theyre just using the architecture of rhetoric that lesbians set up: "Respect MAH TROOOTH! ITS MY TROOTH" Ugh. Lesbians are homosexuals first. Woman is like 9 on the list. The majority of women dont even consider lesbians women. So yeah, i look down on them. And they know and feel that energy. comment 3: If people were rewarded based on their contribution to what they did for their larger groups, lesbians would be walking around in capes right now being knighted for their contrbutions to womens rights but they really get nothing in return. All that happens is that gay people end up hating lesbians because the lesbians end up "choosing" the heterosexuals over their own kind (homosexuals) so the lesbians arent welcomed into gay spaces...and then lesbians end up getting rejected by the women they help because again...theyre heterosexuals. Again, i always thought the division between gays and lesbians was insane and then i started seeing why it happened. All lesbian energy goes into contributing to heterosexual womens lives and comforts at the expense of their own homosexual rights. And then you go online now and bisexual women are lecturing lesbians..you know, their "allies" on how they need to focus their attention on resources on BIGGER victims than lesbians....bisexual and straight women and domestic abuse. Like....these were the people voting against gay marriage for lesbians not so long ago lol.

And the biggest homophobes are women. Except gays tend to be idiots and not notice it because all the homophobia bisexual and straight women have is reserved for their dating partners: "why wont you be a man and do whatever i say? Are you a FggT?" every 3 seconds, thats what comes out of their mouths. Straight and bi women perpetuate homophobia as well. I remember in the 90's straight women tolerated gay men as accessories and pets and were violently, viscerally disgusted by lesbians. So i dont know where lesbians got this idea theyre magical friends with women. It was gay men who had to teach them that if you're friends with gay men, then you shouldnt insult or at least keep your hatred of lesbians in private. And in gay clubs, where it was mostly gay men and their straight girlfriends. I remember when lesbians would come into the gay bar looking for friends. At the time, they were young and innocent and didnt understand how the world worked. Lesbians shouldnt have been in the gay clubs because they were filled with straight women. I felt bad for them. All the girls would be busy dancing with gay guys but the sneers, the disgust and the looks the straight girls gave them. They would just stand there and confused why no one would talk to them. The gays couldnt talk to them because then their straight women friends would punish them for it for "betraying" them and when a lesbian young girl would accidently approach a straight girl confusing her for a lesbian...it was the biggest insult for a straight girl for the lesbian girl to even confuse her for such a disgusting thing. Again, most of lesbian history is honestly a disaster "friendship" with straight women and a resentful relationship with gay men because of what they see as betrayal. And the funny thing is, when lesbians made massive sacrifices to help organize women...advancing peoples rights pisses EVERYONE off. You need a scapegoat and imagine an entire country..the nation of america scapegoating the superminority of lesbians for womens rights. Lesbians became the face to spit on when it came to womanhood and it gave them nothing in return. My sister, who's a straight girl who GREATLY benefits from lesbian work..looks down on "feminists" and thinks theyre all "a bunch of worthless lesbians". Lesbians dont benefit from the advancement of womanhood because lesbians arent seen as women. It's like they learn nothing from gay people. Gay men dont benefit from the patriarchy because they arent seen as men. And intelligent gays and lesbians accepted that. We just see ourselves as aliens from another culture and planet.

[–]exponent2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Whats the background of this poster by the way.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I am a young lesbian that was born and raised in North America in an ultra-religous muslim household. I grew up attending and Islamic school for elementary, and then went to a regular public highschool. So growing up with Islamic homophobia and learning how my family is from a country where the death penalty is legal towards homosexuals sucked. Gay men and lesbians get treated like utter shit in my community. The first lesbian I heard of online from my ethnic background came out in Norway, and she was greeted with over a hundred threats on her voice mail and needed to get security involved for attending a pride parade back around 2011-2012. The first other lesbian I found from my ethnic community on Twitter was from the States had to stop showing her face cuz some people smashed her car in. The first gay guy I saw come out back around 2018, who has done great work, was feminine and was bullied mocked and harrassed so much that he is now a transwoman that focuses most of his energy on transactivism. I think gay people from my ethnic community just sort of ditch it and try to make their way. Gay people back home do get murdered; most news doesnt pick it up cuz its not news. The oldest story I read online was about one lesbian couple that was hanged back around 2002. Some gay couples also crossdress to fit in with heterosexual couples as well if they can "pass" which is just another version of the transgenderism. In my community, it is common for straight parents to send their gay teens and young adults back home born in the west (to a country with the death penalty) to experience conversion therapy. They just trick them into "visiting the relatives" and then hide the passports.

I love my mother but if she was back home, I 100% believe she would support the death penalty towards gays, she is just that religious. I also grew up wearing a hijab fulltime since I was 4-5 years old which alienates me a bit cuz I live in a very liberal area with very few muslims. I also walk around in abayas (the black robe) and long skirts too.

Turning around to go to a public highschool and online to be greeted with woke homophobia was annoying but manageable for me because its so ridiculous, you have to laugh at it sometimes. I still wear hijab and started uni late during the pandemic, so I havent had the ability to meet other gays irl, cuz it was too hard in highschool explaining to the non-muslim kids that the only hijabi and one of the very few black kids in attendance was an atheist dyke.

Some radfems/gc types are funny when they act like women have some type of ownership over femininity and hate on gnc people. On a personal level, I am casually feminine, and I just get the energy that a lot of these people would not treat a stud/butch/feminine gay guy with much respect since they are often "read" as gay from first glance. And no one should care if a man wears a dress. I have seen a double standard on gc twitter where some young gnc lesbians are given sympathy and space to start using he/him pronouns, but if a guy started using she/her pronouns they wouldnt budge. Its all stupid, but its still shows how many of these women see us as men-light and feel like our energy belongs to them and their issues. Gender non-conforming gay people have been around on this earth just as long as long as gender conforming straight people have. Gay men in drag being feminine isnt offensive, they aren't trying to be women, that just the logic of transgenderism again. By that logic a lesbian in a suit is trying to "be a man".

I just saw a last night a video about a radfem facebook group where many bisexual women said they basically said they had the god given right to call themselves "lesbians" and how they can "choose" to become lesbians at any point in their lives after dating men. It was another radfem lesbian reading the messages they were saying to each other and its was disgusting. Religious parents are just going to turn around and see that mess, "accept" their gay kids as bisexual, and still demand them to get married to the opposite sex which is traumatizing for many people. I never chose to be gay, who tf chooses to be gay in the muslim community? But these women just dont care cuz they are homophobic.

Non of these straight women online cared about lesbians having the right to reject bisexual women without having "biphobia" brought up. But the second, a bi guy tries that on a straight woman, its over. I became friend with a 19yr old bi-exmuslim guy from the Uk and he plans on marrying a woman, which makes sense. He never plans on bring up the fact that he has kissed boys and stuff since he knows, it will never work, and our ethnic community would disown him and laugh him off the face of the earth if he tried.

Receipts: "Political lesbians...are you okay?": https://youtu.be/ywmbv3Q3UxI In this video a radfem lesbian reads out homophobic comments from other bisexual and straight radfems and how they feel the right to co-opt our identity and experiences for their own benefit, which is homophobic af.

[–]exponent2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

I know you're being very patient as a lesbian with the vitriol i've spewed but i think there's something very sick and very disgusting with the way white gays and lesbians (im white) squandered all our energy and didnt have a global perspective during globalization and didnt use our power to basically harm homophobes within ethnic communities and empower homosexuals within those communities. The "Politically correct" stooges thought it was wrong to leverage our "white privilege" to sabotage the human rights of ethnic minorities if they were homophobes...when and a lot of other gay people silently believed their "journey" to achieving equality here would be conditional on that they dont treat their own gay community members as subhuman. Some idiots were so naive that they thought if white gays and lesbians were nice to them, then they just HAD to change their mind and not be homophobic. This is what happens when you have imbeciles with privilege. They dont see threats and dangers and their entire understanding of the gay/lesbian civil rights movement was "we asked people for rights and they were nice to give them to us".