DiscussionIf women ran the world...

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[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

I think homophobia would be no more or less prevalent, just different.

Some straight women, particularly so-called "political lesbians", seem to view female homosexuality with a sort of benevolent-homophobia lens, similarly to how many TRAs do-- "it's so OPEN-MINDED to be a lesbian!" "Being lesbian is a choice that everybody should make!" etc. Ascribing character judgments on the basis of sexual orientation, and suggesting that sexual orientation is a choice. On the other hand, there are the heterosexual women who treat same-sex-attracted women like a disease; that's been more of my personal experience.

There is some sort of myth that women are "better" and "kinder" and "more caring" than men, so therefore they should run the world... that's some benevolent sexism bullshit. I don't think homophobia would be way less of a problem with women running the world, it would just be a different problem. The fact is, LGB people are naturally a statistical minority and so we're always going to be at a disadvantage because of that. (The same way that women are at a disadvantage compared to men because on average, they're noticeably physically weaker.)

Power-seeking groups of humans often see a smaller group as a prime target from which to steal resources and unify against; that fact alone may breed homophobia, even in the most fair, thoughtful, and ideal societies. That's just my opinion.

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Also, exponent2 is making broad generalizations about lesbians. Most lesbians are not radical feminists, and radical feminism has harmed lesbians as well as gay men.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (14 children)

Saying he is making "broad generalizations about lesbians" doesn't mean that many lesbians (or at least people who claim to be us) online don't act that way. I feel like all groups (but lesbians specifically) should listen to outside perspectives on us, especially since we are such a tiny minority. We should see how the homophobes speak about us, so we can have better reactions, and we need to hear how gay men view us since they are our opposites, just erase whatever misogyny you feel you have read, and see if there is anything valuable there.

I do feel like lesbian center our activism too much on stuff that directly benefits straight/bi women and not us; and in turn neither of those groups have helped us get to where we are, but gay men have since we do benefit off their work. Like I am a black lesbian, and many black lesbians of history (specifically Black-American btw) have been incredible writers and have contributed a lot to womenkind Audre Lorde, Pat Parker, Lorraine Hansberry, etc. It doesn't shame me to say as an 2nd gen African in Canada NOT the States, to say that I have the privilege of benefitting greatly off of the work they and other Black Americans did for themselves, I just showed up after the fact and was born in the west. All I am saying is that if gay white men did not exist, I find it very hard to believe that gay marriage would be legal here or gay people would have made the strides they have. Not because I think that being a white dude makes one an innately better human being, but they have power, and it just so happens that I, a homosexual, do benefit off of that. If it was just us lesbians alone and gay men did not exist, do you think we could have ever gotten married? We would be treated way worse than we are.

In the centuries and centuries of homosexual oppression, when have straight mothers as a collective, turned around to their lesbians daughters and treated them nicely, just cuz they are both women. Never. Womens rights are important but the 98% of women that arent lesbians can handle it, while we focus on homosexual issues.

It might be more clear to me because my community is super f-ing homophobic and wouldn't dream of doing shit for the gays; and I just so happen to have the privilege of being born in a super liberal country that values the rights of homosexuals, for now. I don't think you are wrong at all, you are both right and its fine that he pointed out a problem within us. It benefits us.

If we dont listen to criticism, even if its harsh, we end up looking just like the TRA's, who have have a better pr campaign than us anyways. Rather than constantly hating on TRA's for their stupidity, maybe we should just study them and figure out how they did it, so we can take our shit back. The flag stuff is stupid when we got the rainbow, and saying "lesbophobia" instead of "homophobia" detracts from our collective issues and us having allies. How did the TRA's get where they are? Well for one thing, they had a repetitive slogan "TWAW" think "peace, land, bread" which helps with marketing. We need more consistency, part of activism is working with people on issues you agree with rather than arguing with gay men about stupid things like misogyny. There is a reason why straight women flock to having gay male friends, they aren't frightening and use homophobia to put them in their place. Gay men arent out here abusing anything but the ego's of women, thats it. Straight women will sit there and argue with gay men about "offensive language" while they are getting sexually abused by the straight/bisexual men of their own communities.

I think we are too busy trying to spite the transes and are failing miserably. The conservatives women will just take over where we left off (see "irreversible damage") and take all the credit and can then use the platforms we created to start being homophobic af. But since they are straight women, they will be listened to, unlike us.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Saying he is making "broad generalizations about lesbians" doesn't mean that many lesbians (or at least people who claim to be us) online don't act that way.

  1. Yes, many people who claim to be us may be this way-- that doesn't mean it IS us! It's unfair to condemn female homosexuals because some straight women decided to LARP as lesbians for political reasons. It would be just as unfair to judge lesbians by the AGP men on r/actuallesbians.

  2. He still is making broad generalizations and that is against one of this sub's rules:

  1. General Guidelines / Civility: All LGB are welcome here. Be respectful of each other's differences. Discuss ideas, not individuals. No broad generalizations.

Even if some lesbians are that way, that is no justification to suggest that all are. For example, some number of gay men are misogynistic assholes, but it would be rude and unfair of me to say, "gay men are misognyistic assholes" because that suggests that they all are.

We should see how the homophobes speak about us, so we can have better reactions

I'm sorry, but what does this even mean? Are you suggesting he is a homophobe...? I've had plenty of homophobia already directed my way, thanks, I don't need to hear more from some random person on the internet.

and we need to hear how gay men view us since they are our opposites, just erase whatever misogyny you feel you have read

Nope, I'm going to call out anyone who says something illogical or hypocritical, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the rest of their claims. I even call out people I like, and I hope they call me out when I make a mistake, too. You are personally free to stay silent when someone says something misogynistic or illogical, if that makes you happier. Also, this dude doesn't speak for all gay men.

and see if there is anything valuable there.

I can call out the illogical parts of what exponent2 said as illogical, and simultaneously agree with parts of what he is saying. Those are not mutually exclusive.

...I just showed up after the fact and was born in the west. All I am saying is that if gay white men did not exist, I find it very hard to believe that gay marriage would be legal here or gay people would have made the strides they have.

I agree and feel similarly; but I don't see anyone disagreeing with this, so what's the issue?

Never. Womens rights are important but the 98% of women that arent lesbians can handle it, while we focus on homosexual issues.

I can care about women's rights if I damn please, or not care. This is not all or nothing lol. It is possible to a) care about LGB rights, b) also care about women's rights, all while also c) not pretending that being lesbian is a "noble choice" (the radfems' approach). I would argue that it is important for at least some lesbians, those who have the energy for it, to be involved in women's rights activism because some heterosexual women are homophobic, and will try to condemn us and speak over us. But that doesn't mean that "being lesbian IS itself fundamentally a women's rights issue," that's bullshit.

If we dont listen to criticism, even if its harsh, we end up looking just like the TRA's, who have have a better pr campaign than us anyways.

Sweeping generalizations and ad hominems are not logical criticism, they're insults. This is Saidit, we are free to criticize each other and engage of dialogue but we do so following the Pyramid of Debate and exponent2 keeps making these sweeping generalizations about lesbians. You know what actually makes a person end up looking like a TRA? Judging female homosexuals' characters on the basis of their sexual orientation... like how exponent2 keeps doing.

part of activism is working with people on issues you agree with rather than arguing with gay men about stupid things like misogyny.

If any person says something illogical and hypocritical, it ought to be called out, and if a gay man says something misogynistic and inaccurate then I will still call it out as being inaccurate and ridiculous even though he is gay. I do not have to suck it up and smile when anyone is being misogynistic, same as I don't have to suck it up and smile when anyone is being homophobic. What kind of bullshit is that? You're free to do that if it makes you happy but expecting other women to is laughable. I just want to be treated equally-- equally regardless of sexual orientation AND equally regardless of sex.

Gay men arent out here abusing anything but the ego's of women,

What is this black-and-white world you live in, where lesbians are evil problem-causers and gay men do no wrong? We are all humans and equally capable of mistakes, bigotry, and kindness. Many gay men are chill, some are bigoted assholes; many lesbian women are chill, some are bigoted assholes. And no, sweeping generalizations and misogynistic comments are not just "abusing women's egos," they are about judging women's character qualities on the basis of sex. And that's some narcissistic bullshit.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Thanks for replying. I enjoy reading your comments on this forum.

I dont think gay men do not do wrong and cant be misogynistic. I just their misogyny is so incomparable to that of straight and bisexual men that they arent that much of a worry. So Ill just personally choose to ignore it, if you dont then thats your choice. But having this bickering between lesbians and gay men about this stuff instead of uniting over a common goal does harm, especially since they (gay men) have more power than us. Thats how online (at least in my tiny ethnic community) LGBT people regardless of politics arent really fighting one another publicly cuz its useless in comparision to religious straight people. Thats also why the trans activists shut up when their bs hits straight people too hard; "superstraight" was able to flourish even tho lesbians been complaining about this shit for a decade. I just think we are throwing away some of our allies but pointing out every little thing that could possibly be concieved as "wrong".

I think he made valuable points about the how the original splintering within the community was probably cause by lesbians, I need to read up on it more tho.

The rights of women have made incredible enhancements thanks to lesbians. But how have straight women turned around and collectively helped our issues? Especially relating to the "cotton ceiling" bs before TRA's started coming for their rights too. Did straight women, who have hetero privilege, turn around and stop the transes from taking over our tiny community in thanks for all that lesbians have done for them. NO. They sat there and lectured us about "acceptance".

I just read the past comment from a lesbian who was talking about us giving "superior orgasms"...to straight women. Why should we honestly give af about their sex lives? I think lesbians care, I think we care too much about straight women. For some reason we talk as if our humanity should only be acknowledged or only seen as valuable for the stuff that we do for other people (mostly other women), and not ourselves.

Edit: When I said we should see how all homophobes speak about us so we can better react to them, I mean that sometimes we do let people (I was speaking about women) off of the hook when it comes to homophobia. You probably feel the same way about me and misogyny lol

I saw an old article about this and if I can find it Ill send it to you later, if thats okay. But basically said when Republican politicians were being homophobic the fact that they were republican was normally a highlight to the article. But when a democrat was homophobic, papers would leave that out. Because all gays should be democrats according to them. Even though I am gay and I am a liberal, I think that type of thinking alienates republican gays who could be our allies. Think of how Dave Rubin gets talked down to sometimes by liberals for being gay.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The rights of women have made incredible enhancements thanks to lesbians. But how have straight women turned around and collectively helped our issues? Especially relating to the "cotton ceiling" bs before TRA's started coming for their rights too. Did straight women, who have hetero privilege, turn around and stop the transes from taking over our tiny community in thanks for all that lesbians have done for them. NO. They sat there and lectured us about "acceptance".>>

i think this is a very important point... and touches on intersectionality, are you woman first or lesbian first? because there are alot of straight women not helping with the biggest lesbian issue, and that is the assault from the TRA's. Too many straight women on the side of the TRA's.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s hard for me to lay this at the feet of straight women. I see liberal women and men en masse ignoring lesbians on this including liberal lesbian women, liberal gay men, and liberal straight men. I’ve found it a lot easier to talk with straight women I’m close to about this. There’s a visibility problem. They don’t even know it’s happening. I think the hardest people to raise these issues with are other lesbians and straight liberal men.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am a lesbian first. The first thing homophobic non-lesbians do is try to seperate us from our womenhood. They can keep their shitty gender roles for all I care. Ill be a dyke.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks.

I just think we are throwing away some of our allies but pointing out every little thing that could possibly be concieved as "wrong".

I understand that concern. I do think that expecting some sort of purity test for this community is not only harmful but just unrealistic. That said, I have no problems calling out ridiculous comments that are individual since this is a discussion board. And, I think it is kinda hypocritical to say, "we shouldn't stereotype people based on same-sex attraction" (homophobia) but then turn around and say "it's fine to stereotype people based on sex" (misogyny).

But how have straight women turned around and collectively helped our issues? Especially relating to the "cotton ceiling" bs before TRA's started coming for their rights too. Did straight women, who have hetero privilege, turn around and stop the transes from taking over our tiny community in thanks for all that lesbians have done for them. NO. They sat there and lectured us about "acceptance".

I generally agree with you there, but I would add-- some straight women actually infiltrated lesbian communities, and claimed that being lesbian is a brave choice to break away from society. I don't really mind if exponent2 or anyone else complains about radfems, or about what I guess could be called the "lesbian movement" which radfems comandeered, but it's misleading to not acknowledge how this came about-- which is thanks to so-called "political lesbians" who are mostly straight women.

I just read the past comment from a lesbian who was talking about us giving "superior orgasms"...to straight women. Why should we honestly give af about their sex lives?

That's not what she said, she said:

we have superior skills giving women orgasms

She didn't say straight women, she said women, i.e. bisexual/lesbian women. I'm not sure whether or not I agree that lesbians actually do give better orgasms to lesbian/bisexual women than men give to straight women-- I'm not straight so I wouldn't know-- but that is a misquote.

I saw an old article about this and if I can find it Ill send it to you later, if thats okay.

Yeah totally, go for it. I actually saw a similar article to the one you described, if you want me to send it to you, lol.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ill try to look for the article later, Ill send it to you directly if I find it.

But Ill repeat that in the context of my post relating to homophobia. Srry if I just understood her words wrong I really thought she was talking about straight women since they are the majority and would hold power (she also didnt clairfy on whether or not she was only speaking about bi women before I blocked her)...but given your assumption how on earth do lesbians giving great orgasms to other lesbian and bisexual women; have anything to do with homophobia and our place in the world. Women are still homophobic now, and we (lesbians) have been having sex with at least some bi women, since forever so how would that give us power, thats just fantasy.

Im sure gay men have great sex with one another, but has that ever helped them out with getting more bi-male activist support. Nope. Im sure there are more bi men in the world than gay men; but as a collective when have bi men ever risked it in support of gay men despite of having the benefit of living in a patriarchy.

Why did it take a politician like Andrew Gullium, getting caught naked on drugs cheating on his wife, to come out as bisexual, if we still live in a patriarchy. If we lived in a matriarchy, why would straight women or bi women be on our side as lesbians? I mean many of them arent on our side now with the trans bs, even though many of the most effective feminists were lesbians. Straight women wanted us OUT of the feminist movement prior to the 70's because they didnt want to be mistaken as us. Then the 70's rolled around and many straight and bi women felt comfortable co-opting our identity for their own gain. Look up the history of the Lavender Menance and why it was created, non-homo feminists historically have hated on lesbians a lot. They wanted absolutely nothing to do with our "perversion" (homosexuality) or our issues facing us as a community. They still dont care (some just pretend), but would like our energy (since we make better feminists) redirected into help them and their needs. Homophobic women have no problem smiling at a lesbian, to later backstab her, when they want something. Why would straight women re-label themselves as us for no reason, unless they were taking up many of the ideas that came to us naturally? Keeping in mind the wanted nothing to do with us before.

We see how gay men get treated everyday by straight men; how are women inherently better? When we say that women would be better, we basically belittle all the issues that gay men face DESPITE growing up in a patriarchy.

Please watch this video, its a rad fem lesbians talking about other non-lesbians radfem co-opting our experiences and identity. They have done this before:

https://youtu.be/ywmbv3Q3UxI

Look how r/femaledatingstrategy (with many rad fem ideas) pretends to care about lesbians while deleting posts that would help wlw.

Link:https://www.reddit.com/r/LesbianDatingStrategy/comments/m9fdxg/beware_this_is_plain_bs_right_here_beware_ladies/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

but given your assumption how on earth do lesbians giving great orgasms to other lesbian and bisexual women; have anything to do with homophobia and our place in the world.

Agreed.

Then the 70's rolled around and many straight and bi women felt comfortable co-opting our identity for their own gain. Look up the history of the Lavender Menance and why it was created, non-homo feminists historically have hated on lesbians a lot. They wanted absolutely nothing to do with our "perversion" (homosexuality) or our issues facing us as a community.

Yes, exactly! This is what I was trying to talk about.

They still dont care (some just pretend), but would like our energy (since we make better feminists)

I don't see why lesbians would make better feminists. I suppose it is possible that lesbians are less prone to underestimating male violence, since our demographic is sexually assaulted at like twice the rate of straight women, and therefore are "better" feminists.

We see how gay men get treated everyday by straight men; how are women inherently better?

You are preaching to the choir.

When we say that women would be better, we basically belittle all the issues that gay men face DESPITE growing up in a patriarchy.

I would also call that benevolent sexism towards women. Not sure I'm convinced that I live in a patriarchy, though (I'm in the US; there are some users here from the Middle East, so I won't speak for them).

I'll take a look, thanks. I have avoided FDS because it seemed toxic but I didn't realize it had radfem links.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The ideas that lesbians put forth make (or made) us better feminists because we can see through the gender roles that are indoctrinated into young girls since birth, much more easily than straight women. That why a few strange straight/bi women STILL think of lesbianism as some sort of strange "enlightenment" to this day. We are more likely to stick to our principles and put more effort in because out of all women, we get screwed over the most in a patriarchy.

I dont think its wrong at all to think that one doesnt live in a patriarchy even though they live in the US. That still doesnt change the fact that men get paid more than women for the same work or that men hold more political and economic power. When I said "patriarchy" I dont mean only women living in a theocracy. You can still grow up with patriarchal concepts and ideas made by man- see religion and religious homophobia which can affect a persons daily life. Men are also physically stronger than women and can force themselves or their ideas onto them that way. No, I wouldnt compare it to someone's life in a different country tho because that is more extreme.

Part of why we keep getting called "mannish" by the straights because we dont benefit from adhering to their gender roles. The first thing a homophobic woman does is attack a lesbians relationship to womenhood because we are more comfortable not following the gender norms that they have set in place for themselves. We usually only use the term "gnc" to describe butches and studs among the lesbian community. But technically, we are ALL gender non-conforming by virtue of being homosexuals. It doesnt benefit us as much to play into gender, but it messes up straight women too, even tho many of them fight to keep the norms in place.

We were more capable of pointing out bs in the ways that straight women and men relate to one another since we arent them and dont want to be like them.

[–]exponent2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

You dont seem particularly insane and the broad generalizations are accurate because the pattern is...general. The overwhelming majority of lesbians keep forgetting that straight women are heterosexuals. How many ways are lesbians going to find ways to split off from gay men in the stupidest ways possible and constantly create weak links within the homosexual community. They even made up their own stupid flag and that ended up creating 60000 more flags for every idiotic group. And the whole "lesbo-phobia" thing distorts so much when discussing homophobia. And if lesbophobia exists, then it infers gay-a-phobia exists. Do people not see what a waste of fucking stupid time this separatism is?

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Why do you hate lesbians so much? Do you think they're the cause of all of LGBs woes? Nearly every comment you make is about how much lesbians suck because they're all radfems (they're not), or that they do things to ruin LGB, such as make their own flag and want to separate.

On the subject of lesbophobia, I do think it's a thing, as well as what you call gay-a-phobia. For example, straight women I've spoken to who show homophobia were often homophobic towards lesbians and bisexual women (often predatory in their minds), but had gay male friends that they clearly didn't feel were a threat in any way. The same way, straight men can find feminine lesbians 'hot', but can on the other hand despise gay men and see them as predatory. There is a pattern, wouldn't you say? These people are only homophobic towards one sex but see no threat in the other. Ergo, separate phobias.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You dont seem particularly insane

Thanks lmao.

the broad generalizations are accurate because the pattern is...general.

I really think you might be mistaking some of those "lesbians" when they may actually just be radfem straight women who pretend to be lesbian because they think it's a "noble choice" for them to make. Unfortunately, straight women can talk over us just the same as men in dresses can talk over us, because female homosexuality (like male homosexuality) is a statistical minority.

The overwhelming majority of lesbians keep forgetting that straight women are heterosexuals.

I'm curious, who are you talking about when you say this? Most self-described lesbians I've talked to on saidit do understand that straight women are heterosexual. If you're talking about the LARPers on Reddit, well, most of them are actually AGP men, and of the women, many are of the "spicy straight" persuasion, unfortunately.

Do people not see what a waste of fucking stupid time this separatism is?

To be honest, I completely agree with you. I have yet to hear a good argument for why we should "get the L out" for example. I appreciate hearing gay and bisexual men's experiences and while I also see the need for spaces specific to each sexual orientation-- e.g. having bars for gay men as well as bars for lesbian women-- I think it makes sense to have a united front for same-sex rights.

[–]exponent2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've been on ovarit. And when i mean "been on ovarit", i mean i've read almost every single comment on every single post there.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

i think you are confusing lesbians ans sjw's. Not all sjw's are lesbians. They are straight women, straight guys and even gay men who are pushing the gender garbage on us.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But Ovarit is a site for radical feminists, not specifically lesbians. That's where the GenderCritical crowd went after getting banned (besides s/GenderCritical). I think there is a lesbian group on there but that's only a minority of lesbians, anyway.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly