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[–]meranii 53 insightful - 3 fun53 insightful - 2 fun54 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Hating women is really fashionable right now among the "woke" as long as they put white in front of it. You could say this kind of misogyny never went out of style but pretending it's some sort of groundbreaking progressiveness is new.

I feel such a visceral revulsion for people that tell a woman to "shut up" like they do JK Rowling, even more so when it's such a concerted media effort. That sort of muzzling language is never used for men they disagree with.

[–]MarkTwainiac 37 insightful - 1 fun37 insightful - 0 fun38 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And in many of the cases we're seeing today, the misogyny and anti-white animus is combined with, and fortified by, ageism too. It's no accident that JKR is what sexist, ageist people would consider "past her sell date" - in her 50s, post menopause, no longer in her reproductive years or sexual prime. As the whole "Karen" thing shows, white women who are no longer dewy, nubile lasses in the bloom of youth/early adulthood are the ones getting routinely slagged off nowadays.

[–]supersmokio6420 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

And ironically its the same people who accuse GC people of not thinking post-menopausal women are women.

[–]anxietyaccount8 40 insightful - 2 fun40 insightful - 1 fun41 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Obsessed. Just, obsessed.

I'm pissed that our Reddit sub was banned, I bet a ton of more women would have woken up to this by now.

[–]questioningtw 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I am still angry that we were banned but MGTOW and Red pill are still there. I actually asked gendercynical when they were going after those subs too and got banned. It really shows that they don't give a shit about anything other then making sure everyone is on board with TRAS.

[–]GConly 28 insightful - 3 fun28 insightful - 2 fun29 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

I think it's because a most well known, vocal feminists are white. Gotta find some way to undermine them.

[–]yousaythosethings 25 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

We should remind them that they also told Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie to shut up for merely pointing out that women and trans-identified males have different life experiences, and that, therefore, women need to be able to talk about our unique experiences.

[–]Shesstealthy 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The thing that peaked me. Till that moment I had no idea we were supposed to pretend TW are identical to us in every way. And terfwise I'm pretty dsmn libfemmy

[–]yousaythosethings 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

This was at the beginning of my peak story too. It wasn't my gateway, but it's something I came upon when I was trying to study the reporting on trans issues. Because I was realizing there was a campaign to prevent us from learning what’s really happening, which explained why I could not find answers to basic questions, and I kept seeing a lot of "this isn't happening" messages about things that I had absolutely observed, particularly in lesbian spaces. At that time I stumbled upon a disingenuous article reporting on that situation with Chimamanda. They quoted all of these "gender experts" about why it was transphobic and providing "corrective" information about trans issues and psychology. Every so-called expert was themselves male to female trans, and that wasn't disclosed in the article. They just quoted multiple Professor So-And-Sos from Such-And-Such Universities. And I looked up them up, and each time learned they were male-to-female trans from that. And generally all white heterosexual males. The omission seemed really deceitful. I think it should at least be disclosed in the article that they're trans, considering they are often about it in their professional lives and it's the entire basis for their careers. I found it so interesting that the social hierarchy in liberal politics was white, hetero males who ID as women over black women. Anyway, this may be the point where I started saving a vault of articles related to trans issues so I could understand the nature of the political movement.

[–]Shesstealthy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean I believe we need to listen to trans voices on their own experiences just as we listen to other minority voices. But I can't shake the sense of being erased. Black women, other minority women and I have something in common. That thing, trans women do not have. And the vast majority were also not socialised as girls which in some ways feels even more significant than biology.

I believe being a woman is a complex nexus between biological realities and socially constructed ideologies. We can't discount either of these things when we examine women's lives and needs.

[–]questioningtw 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That was what peaked me as well. Actually it was this whole male pregnancy shit that did. Trying to pretend that biology doesn't matter is anti intellectualism at its finest.

[–]questioningtw 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have actually seen black feminists be called white feminists....how is that not racist?

[–]yousaythosethings 27 insightful - 3 fun27 insightful - 2 fun28 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Are they going to call out racism in the porn industry? And then also act like women caused that too?

[–]Veneficca 19 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Jezebel recently ran an article blaming white women for racist porn.

[–]yousaythosethings 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thankfully I think unless you're an out and out incel, everyone and their dog knows who to really blame for the state of the porn industry these days, and it ain't women. Men's tastes have gotten increasingly more disturbing.

[–]moody_ape 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

oh ffs! i wish i could say i'm surprised...

[–]questioningtw 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

huh? I am pretty sure porn racist or otherwise is viewed is made and viewed by men.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

they are pretty much pro porn, and think anyone thag opposes porn is a religious nut...so no.

[–]loveSloane 16 insightful - 6 fun16 insightful - 5 fun17 insightful - 6 fun -  (81 children)

“now using a sketch suggesting white women use black men's bodies for sex”

This does happen. A lot. And is worth acknowledging and talking about as it’s a huge issue for my community. I have no problem with this being called out and I’m glad they did.

“(meanwhile, men in mass exploit, degrade, buy, sell and objectify female bodies on an hourly basis across the world):”

Both are true. Both are wrong. Both are worth being discussed. I’m not equating white women who exploit black men with the objectification of female bodies- I’m saying the objectification of female bodies doesn’t give the white women that sketch was making fun of carte blanche (accident- Lol) to fetishize and exploit black men.

“last week that pointed to the absurdity of white women equating their oppression with racial oppression.”

Idk your race, but if you’re not black it may be best not to speak on that if you’re not well informed (I say this as politely as possible, and mean no offense)

[–]thrownawaycan 27 insightful - 3 fun27 insightful - 2 fun28 insightful - 3 fun -  (34 children)

So here's a question that i always want to ask in this convo but it never seems appropriate.

Who is all the "BBC destroys white teen pussy" porn for? I've seen a lot of people saying it's for white women, and I don't know, there's so much of it professionally produced that I find it hard to believe.

I guess I struggle from it because of my perspective, as a white woman who has dealt with men of color being really creepy/fetishistic over my being white. I get that preference for white women is absolutely part of racism and related to denigration of WoC, but I guess I see race and patriarchy intersecting in a weird way when followed to my car by a dude saying really weird shit about my skin color.

[–]lefterfield 30 insightful - 3 fun30 insightful - 2 fun31 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

No porn is made for women. As a white woman who was used by a black man for my whiteness, I think patriarchy and racism is a lot more complicated than the original comment implies.

[–]thrownawaycan 23 insightful - 2 fun23 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

There's also the "white women are for fucking, <women of my own race> are for loving and having families" attitude that I've run into a fair amount.

I'm not saying that white women aren't creepy and fetishistic towards men of color, they absolutely can be and are, I guess it's more the intersection between the two is more complicated than just "white women bad".

[–]Veneficca 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Like the Rotherham rapes in the UK, where predominantly Pakistani men targeted thousands of white girls for sexual abuse. Horrific scandal and everyone STILL gets uncomfortable talking about the real dynamics at play.

[–]lefterfield 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, absolutely.

[–]gravitywitch 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I always thought things like that were for white males to be honest. Just like how any porn with “Ebony” tacked onto it (ebony women, ebony bbw, ebony teen, etc.) seems to be popular among white males just the same. I’m honestly starting to think they’re obsessed with the stereotype of black men being beasts and bucks with long schlongs lol (not true at all btw). It’s true that black males (men of color in general) fetishize white women and it does have something to do with racism (the self hate and white women being seen as a buffer against experienced racism). There are, however, white women who fetishize black men (and men of color in general). There are women of color who fetishize white men as well as black men. As a black woman myself, I’ve run into plenty of white men who’ve fetishized me. Most of the time it’s accompanied by stereotyped thoughts of how I should act as a black woman. I’m to be open to sex at any time, open to receiving gross behavior, and open to receiving less than white women according to these particular men simply because they’re white and a catch to someone like me. Pfft. Ok. Point is, anyone can fetishize anyone, but if we’re really getting into it, most of the fetishized behavior come from males. The type of man who fetishizes others seem to think they own anything and anyone in their sight.

[–]yousaythosethings 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This is what I was getting at, and I'm sorry you've experienced that. Yes, there is a lot of fetishization going on between different groups, and none of it is good, but it does strike me as weird that it's getting increasingly popular to act like the primary perpetrators of pernicious discrimination are women, and especially white women. I don't think fetishization by white women would be a problem to call out if they weren't deliberately ignoring the bigger elephant in the room with a lot more social power. And in the greater context of what they're doing, it does look sinister.

I have also noticed black women being written out of the script in genderist discourse, including with all of this discussion about biological sex being a tool of colonialism meanwhile black trans-identified males can openly denigrate black women. Meanwhile lesbians are being told creepy shit like there's not much of difference in the skeletal structure of male bodies and black women's bodies so if we're attracted to black women, we have no excuse to not be attracted to males. It's all so disturbing and divisive.

[–]loveSloane 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (23 children)

I’d say, considering how much they profit from it, that that porn is for white people. They’ve turned it into a huge market. White female performers literally hold off on sleeping with black men on camera until they have made a name for themselves and then they sleep with black performers and get paid significantly more for doing so. That alone is exploitation imo

I don’t think that many white people understand how systemic racism has psychologically affected black people (which is okay- it’s not meant as a negative- it doesn’t affect them, why would they be well informed on it?) and I don’t know of the forum to direct you to for an education. I’m not defending black men or how they treat women of any race- literally all I said is that white women fetishizing black men is very much a thing that is worth discussing. And the comments I’ve received seem to ignore that or get defensive and try to shift “blame”- I didn’t say all white women do this or even that most do- I said it does happen and SNL was right to call it out. It doesn’t mean that females aren’t oppressed by males. It doesn’t mean white women equal evil and black men equal good. It means that the race that holds the upper hand and is responsible for a lot of oppression (and racism) over pretty much all other races also can have a tendency to fetishize the people they oppress. As far as intersectionality- sometimes that means that someone oppressed because of their sex is still highly privileged because of their race. And I think snl and the people who make comments about white Women fetishizing black men are just more willing to acknowledge that.

[–]lefterfield 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I could be wrong, but I've heard that white female performers who do racial porn get paid less, not more. The reason they hold off on it is because doing it tends to hurt their careers. Porn is exploitative, but I strongly doubt that the female performers are in a position to exploit the men they have sex with, regardless of race. Those decisions are being made by the producers or managers, who are high majority white men.

[–]loveSloane 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

You can literally watch interview upon interview of white female porn actresses discussing when they finally decide to “do a bbc”. I’m sure there are many who don’t have a choice- there are also very many who hold off on it and then make more money for doing it, I looked into this last year, they compare it to things like “finally doing anal”. It’s for the fetish, it’s because it’s considered taboo. Even this year when famous white people were pressured to make comments about blm, there’s a very famous white porn actress who addressed this. Whether it’s the white female performers making the choice, or the white men in charge- black men are still being exploited for their race (yes I realize those women are being exploited for being female regardless of who they have sex with. matter of fact, woc are treated worse, paid less, and told they are less desirable and marketable than white female performers). If you want to ignore that, there’s no point in this discussion. White women can suffer from patriarchy and still be privileged. They aren’t mutually exclusive situations.

[–]lefterfield 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

Of course it's done for the fetish, and for the taboo. The question is "who is making these decisions," and "who is it marketed for?" It's not white women, I would suspect, most of the time. And I don't count being paid more for doing porn a privilege for white women. Getting a bigger bite of a shit sandwich is not a great deal. We can certainly talk about the fact that women of color are treated worse, within porn or elsewhere, but being paid more for your exploitation is still being exploited. The goal should be for no women to be exploited at all.

[–]loveSloane 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

I didn’t say that them being paid more means they are less exploited. I’m saying that white women have privilege for being white. And it shows up, even when they are exploited for being females in porn. The point is- the white women are also making this decision. I know what I’m talking about, I know people who have worked in porn i understand a lot of what happens behind the scenes. it is a strategy to avoid sleeping with black men until the most opportune moment for their career. Sleeping with a black man is compared to fetish acts, and white women in this industry understand that and use that. They use it by not sleeping with black men, they use it by making it a big exciting deal when they finally do. I don’t know how you either ignore this or don’t get it.

The conversation is not “is porn exploitative”, we know it is.

The conversation is also not “are woc treated worse” hopefully we all know the truth of that answer.

You can say that getting a bigger bite of a shit sandwich is not a great deal. Sure it’s not, but it’s still a better deal. And unless you’re one of the women getting a smaller bite, you don’t really have any right to say how a woc may feel about a white woman in the exact same industry as her getting more money, better treatment, and having more freedom of choice than her. Yes they are both being exploited- but I don’t get how you can acknowledge that white women are getting treated significantly better and then dismiss that truth?

The conversation isn’t even about porn at all (though it was referenced in the midst of the actual discussion), it’s also not even about woc compared to white Women. It’s literally about black men being fetishized by white women. And you seem unwilling to even go there but have some need to prove some point that I still don’t get.

[–]lefterfield 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

No, I think this is BS. Your only example of white women fetishizing black men comes from porn, and what ACTRESSES say who are STILL IN THE INDUSTRY. IE, women who are paid to perform for other people being paid to say that they also enjoy it. As far as "how I ignore this" - I don't spend a lot of my time watching porn interviews, as you apparently do? Who gives a shit if white women are more valuable to exploit by men, WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE EXPLOITED BY MEN. THIS IS A FEMINIST FORUM I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO SAY THAT.

[–]loveSloane 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

It’s not my only example lmao. It’s the example that someone literally brought up to me and I addressed. What are you even talking about? Also- I literally said I know people who worked in this industry. I work in entertainment. Should I shun the women I know who used to do porn and want to talk to me about it? Sounds pretty shitty. Yes, I did research what I’m talking about. Because i discussed this at length with people who experienced it first hand and I wanted to understand better. I guess I’m just one of those people who likes to actually know what the fuck I’m talking about before I start talking. Sorry if that’s frustrating for you.

Can you show me where I said that women should be exploited by men? It sounds to me like you can’t handle the conversation because you’re not prepared to have it. No woman should be exploited, I agree. Im saying that you don’t have the right to try to sit here and say that women who are being treated even worse than women who are already being treated poorly is irrelevant. I didn’t say white women should shut up and be happy because at least they get called pretty and paid more while they’re being exploited. I said you’re ignoring important truths that exist- whether they should or shouldn’t exist. Truths that woc think are worth addressing. You can ignore them if you want, that’s your privilege, after all, but it doesn’t mean that woc don’t think these conversations are relevant and worth having. THIS IS A FEMINIST FORUM. I SHOULDNT HAVE TO SAY THAT WOC HAVE DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES THAN WHITE WOMEN OR THAT WHITE WOMEN SHOULDN’T BE DISMISSIVE OF THEIR EXPERIENCES. SEE? I CAN TYPE IN ALL CAPS TO SHOW I HAVE A POINT TO MAKE TOO.

[–]lefterfield 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (12 children)

Fuck off. You're not interested in discussing anything.

[–]just_lesbian_things 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It’s literally about black men being fetishized by white women.

It happens in real life, but I doubt it happens as much as the other way around, simply because men tend to have more fetishes. I occasionally get fetishized by women too; I just imply no and she backs off. She's not going to rape me, she's not going to attack me, she isn't physically intimidating, and she doesn't exhibit the entitlement to my body a lot of men have. It never feels great to be reduced to a stereotype, but she doesn't have any power over me. Maybe it's different with heterosexual women.

I don’t get how you can acknowledge that white women are getting treated significantly better and then dismiss that truth?

Because they aren't. Interracial porn isn't really done for women, it's done for men. Most porn is done for men.

The porn industry doesn't suck in men the way it does women. Men who are in that position aren't typically there by accident- it takes a lot of effort on their part. The industry isn't really out there recruiting vulnerable young men the way it is vulnerable young women. Last I checked, women aren't going around en mass tricking/pressuring black (or any race of) teenage boys into doing porn through drug addiction or abusive relationships. I don't sympathize with men in the porn industry, regardless of race.

[–]loveSloane 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. Oh. My. god. I am not defending black men. I am not talking about any of this. I was literally pointing out- initially to the op- that black men do get fetishized by white women sometimes and it is something that should be called out because it stems from and reinforces racism. And it’s like y’all are just saying “it’s okay get over it and don’t mention it” because black men are men? So white women can be racist to black men because they’re men, but snl can’t make fun of racist white women because they’re female?

I understand that men are stronger and more violent than women. I understand the fear and caution this necessitates. My whole point is that when white women get called out for racial fetishes, it’s shouldn’t just be dismissed because white women are female. Racism is racism regardless of your sex and I’d hope that real feminists would get that. I acknowledged that the situation can be reversed- But that’s not what the original post or my comment was referencing-it was about not dismissing a real issue amongst another marginalized group (black people) and saying that to me, SNL did nothing wrong by the sketch highlighting it. Since it’s not a feminist issue- it could’ve been left alone. instead of just ignoring it, or just saying “oh well Whatever that’s not related to feminism”and moving on, they decided to go back and forth with me over a topic that apparently shouldn’t even be discussed here.

I agree, it never feels great to be reduced to a stereotype. Be a it a sexist or racist one.

/2. Except we weren’t talking about just interracial porn. We were talking about porn, period, at that point. And yes, it is evident that white women get treated differently than woc in that industry. Yes they are still being exploited, yes it’s still all bad- my point, which I elaborated on, is that for a woc who works in that industry (not me- to be clear, I’m saying in general) it’s not as simple as saying “oh we’re both being exploited” there’s more to it than that because there is an element of racism in the discrepancies that the white performer is exempt from or benefiting from. Everybody loves to talk about intersectionality until we get to the parts where white women benefit from being white despite also being female.

I am not saying that the porn industry isn’t disgusting or abusive for any woman involved in it- I only said that there is even within that exploitative environment, a difference in the way those women are treated, and that difference is race. maybe people don’t want to hear that, maybe you don’t feel it’s relevant, but given the fact that we were talking about race through out the thread, it was relevant to me. I at no point said anything in support or defense of black men or men at all, let alone men in porn, I was asked- literally specifically asked about white women doing porn with black men- so that’s what I answered. I didn’t say I felt sorry for the black men allowing themselves to be exploited. I don’t, because in that situation they themselves are contributing to exploiting females. I was asked about the racial aspect of it- I gave my opinion. So all of this about men pressuring girls into porn and addiction and abuse- has nothing to do with any of what I said and There is nothing in what I said that indicates that I’m not aware of the dangers and abuses of this industry. I don’t need an education on this and would have said similar things as you If this were actually what I was discussing. It wasn’t. I swear I feel like every time I’ve ever discussed or seen someone else try to discuss anything concerning black people or poc on gender critical-even if it’s about black/poc women, these blinders go up and nobody can comprehend what is being said. And I think I figured out why lol. This is why woc made the gc sub for woc.

[–]thrownawaycan 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The reason I brought up the porn is because people have brought it up as proof of white women fetishizing/exploiting black men, and I guess I never got the impression that it was produced for white women. I wanted to understand if you felt it was related, since I really really struggle to see it as "for white women," but I never really could figure out who it was for if not black men and if not white women.

I guess to me, it just feels like a safe thing for them to call out for their audience (since shitting on white women is en vogue). I know that it being "safe" to call out doesn't mean it shouldn't be called out. From my perspective the way they carried it out just resulted in more harassment for being in a mixed race relationship (though my bf is not black, people I know quickly escalated to "white women fetishize all nonwhite men"). I guess ultimately you can't avoid such things and it's not the writers fault; I suppose it's just something I'll have to get use to dealing with going forward.

[–]loveSloane 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I actually think I read somewhere that that type of porn is most popular amongst white men. I could be wrong but I’ve heard that a few times.

I definitely agree that it’s “safe” and popular to call out white women currently. Sometimes it feels like what’s being called out should be, other times it feels like a way to deflect from a topic that makes white men (or just men) look bad. I think it’s good that privileged people, be they white, males, heterosexual etc, are being called out and asked to acknowledge their privilege, but I also think that it doesn’t (and shouldn’t) be okay for that criticism to spill over into questioning personal choices of any privileged person just because they have privilege. I don’t think that every white woman in a relationship with a poc is fetishizing them (my husband is white and I don’t think he fetishizes me), I do know that I’ve seen it often first hand, even sometimes I’ve seen white women in relationships with poc where they don’t even realize the racist and or fetishizing comments they’re making. I don’t think those types of assumptions should be made irl without knowing the people involved or seeing first hand someone fetishizing their partner, but I see how media can contribute to it happening.

[–]Shesstealthy 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a white woman I can think of little porn j would less be attracted to viewing, with a title like that.

It's for white men.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Who is all the "BBC destroys white teen pussy" porn for?

Gail Dines goes into it in Pornland and says it's for white men who hate white women. It's the same racist shit as the "cuck" idea coming from the incels. The most offensive thing is for your female or the females that are supposed to "belong" to you (in the racist sense of white women are white men's objects, etc.) to have sex with black men. It's supposed to hit another level of the degradation of a white woman to be getting "fucked" by the BBC.

[–]lefterfield 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

It also happens a lot that black men fetishize and use white women for sex.

[–]loveSloane 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (40 children)

I think of you want to have that particular discussion you should look into researching it more. You can call it mutually exploitative or try to deflect all you want but there’s literal slave mentality psychology behind why black men allow themselves to be fetishized by white women. Which is why I said if you’re not black maybe don’t try to have that discussion as I highly doubt you’re well informed on it. These types of subjects are why a lot of woc acknowledge the difference between feminism and white feminism. (This is not to say that white women are all people who only engage in “white feminism” it’s saying that a lot of them don’t seem to be able to acknowledge racial issues like this- and I’m not particularly interested in having this discussion with someone who coming from a POV where you don’t seem to want to understand from a black perspective)

[–]lefterfield 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Ok, but... this seems to imply that I can't have this discussion as a white woman either, from my perspective. Even though I've been in this exact situation. I'd love to have the conversation in reverse, but apparently we can't and I can't talk about my experiences? Then I guess there's no discussion to be had.

[–]loveSloane 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The thing is tho, why does this conversation have to be had in reverse? Particularly before we even had any conversation in the direction it started? That’s the type of stuff woc mean when we talk about “white feminism”. You don’t have to flip everything to make it about you and how you’re also a victim.

The discussion was “black men being fetishized by white women”. I say, “this oppressed group is fetishized by some of the people who oppress them” you say “sOMe oF tHe oPreSsEd pEopLe Do iT toO!!!” I never said they didn’t. I also, unlike you, understand why and understand that racism contributes to why some black men “do it too.” I’m not excusing them. They aren’t fetishizing you because they think you have a tighter vagina or because they think you’ll love them better- they do it because of the dynamics between white and black people, and being with a white woman can feel like approval or acceptance. It can feel like status. It can stem from self hatred. Because they’ve been taughtthat white women are the standard for women and that black women are too strong or less feminine. There’s so much behind it that you don’t seem to acknowledge. Is this true for white Women fetishizing black men? Or do they just think black men have big dicks and lots of stamina? Do you really not understand the difference? Like- my whole point is you’re calling out snl for mentioning something that actually does happen and your post came across as if you don’t think it does happen, or that it should be okay or not called out because females as a sex are oppressed. my point -my only point- is that black men being fetishized by white women is a thing that happens and it’s worth calling out when it does. You can absolutely talk about your experiences- your experience is not that of a black man being fetishized by a white woman so it wouldn’t have been relevant to what I was talking about. So, unless you’ve been either the black man being fetishized or the white woman fetishizing him, you haven’t been in this exact situation. So why the need to immediately reverse the conversation to the white woman being the victim of fetishizing? Why not actually address what I said? This is a thing that happens, it’s a thing that causes issues in my community, it’s a thing that contributes to racism and has an impact on dynamics between black men and black women and I’m glad that the white women who fetishize black men are being called out. There are repercussions and side effects of this fetish for black people of both sexes, are there for white people? What are they?

[–]lefterfield 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

First of all, this isn't my post. Second, I did acknowledge that what you said was happening by the use of the word 'also.' But knowing what I do of both men and women, and that the VAST majority of fetishistic behavior comes from men, I'm skeptical that it's more common for white women to fetishize black men than vice versa. As far as this skit, I don't understand it at all or why it's even supposed to be funny. I'm not sure I get it well enough to even call it out as offensive to white women... so all I did say was in response to you.

are there for white people?

I mean, rape. That's a thing that happens to white women that are fetishized by black men. It's not simple at all to say that white women oppress black men in all contexts. Black men are still men, white women are still women.

[–]loveSloane 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I’m sorry- are you saying that black men who fetishize white women are rapists? Are you saying that white women are usually raped by black men (who fetishize them)? Or are you saying that just as some white men rape women, some black men do? Because two of those would be racist to say and the other is irrelevant to what we are discussing. Some men rape women. Yes. Can you explain how black men fetishizing white women leads to this, directly? Can you link something showing us that black men who fetishize white women tend to rape them? Or are you throwing rape out there because you have no answer to the question I asked? I asked you how black men fetishizing white Women impacts the white community. I gave you examples (that I can expand upon if you still don’t get it) of how it impacts the black community, you... mentioned rape. That’s not an answer to what I asked. That’s you mentioning rape when I ask about something else entirely.

I understand that black men are still men, and a man of any race can be violent. I understand that white women are still women, and that they can be victims. I don’t really get how either of those truths has anything to do with that we are discussing, unless you think that black men are more likely to rape white women. Which, as far as I know, is not a thing.

[–]lefterfield 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Men are sometimes rapists. That's all I'm saying. If you want to get into more examples of how this fetishizing harms white women - the pressure to participate in racial porn. Being used for their appearance/race and being treated as an object to be acquired rather than a person. Same way that patriarchy harms all women. Stop firing off multiple questions when one would suffice, please.

[–]loveSloane 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

“Men are sometimes rapists.”

Of course. What does this have to do with the conversation we are having or the question I asked you?

“That's all I'm saying.”

Why are you saying it when we are talking about black men/white women fetishizing each other?

“If you want to get into more examples of how this fetishizing harms white women”

This wasn’t an example to begin with but go off

“the pressure to participate in racial porn.“

Are they pressured? Because before it was stated that they were encouraged not to. The whole reason “bbc” is a thing is because of th black man’s race- not the white woman. They do this with Asian and Latina porn actresses to. The fetish is still on the black man, not the women.

“Being used for their appearance/race and being treated as an object to be acquired rather than a person.”

I’m sorry- if the porn genre is “bbc” it sounds like the object to be acquired is the “bbc”. Which is attached to the black man, not the women. So in your example it’s the man’s race being exploited.

“Same way that patriarchy harms all women.”

As I said, you can be a victim of patriarchy and still be privileged because of your race. They are not mutually exclusive situations.

“Stop firing off multiple questions when one would suffice, please”

If you can’t keep up with the conversation you are obviously more than free to end it. It’s all relevant. If you can’t address it just admit that or walk away from it.

[–]lefterfield 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, fuck off. You're a troll.

[–]ColoredTwice 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

It does not really sound as "white feminism", as problems of any group of men are not really problems of feminism and problems that any feminism should be adressing and/or solving. When women of color are left behind - that is completely other topic.

[–]loveSloane 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

My point is that this person is talking about black men “using white women for sex” (which by the way is the same exact thing that a lot of black people feel like white women are doing to black men) and this woman instantly tried to change the direction of the conversation rather than address what my point was- that some members of an oppressive group (white people- yes including women) fetishize the people they oppress (black men) and that it should be called out. Black men don’t have power over white women. Physically possibly because they are men, but politically or any other way? Not really. History, recent and way back, can verify this. That doesn’t mean that I think this is a feminist discussion or issue, I know it’s not. I’m saying this person I was talking to reeks of the “white feminist” mentality that many woc are talking about, from her flipping things to make white women the victim when she could have just not commented since she was out of her depth, her calling me a troll and telling me to fuck off for suggesting that woc receive worse treatment and that shouldn’t be dismissed, to her bringing rape into it when I was talking about how this subject impacts our communities and where it stems from. I showed this thread to my friends (white and woc friends) and they all see what I was saying. I’m not going to try to convince any one to see it, if you get it you get it. If you don’t you don’t. You don’t have to be talking about a feminist issue for your “white feminist mentality” to shine through. It doesn’t matter. This isn’t a safe space for black women just as the reddit gc sub wasn’t. I said what I said and I stand by it.

[–]kwallio 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Black men don’t have power over white women

Which group got the vote first?

[–]loveSloane 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

You do realize that while black men technically had the right to vote before white Women, white people went out of their way to make sure that black people didn’t vote well after women got the right to vote, yes? That they made up laws and qualifications that denied black people voting rights? Maybe, look up poll taxes, literacy tests, and grandfather clauses? Or how black people were considered less than a whole human? That one of the reasons some white women protested not having the right to vote, literally one of the points they made in favor of being given the right to vote, was that the “unfit and alien race” had the right to vote already? Or that white suffragettes made sure to inform the powers that be that more white women than black would vote, so it was okay to let women vote? That Carrie Chapman Catt literally told white men to allow white women to vote because it “honorably upheld white supremacy”?

And that even as white Women were gaining the right to vote themselves, they actively participated in making sure to suppress black voters- of both sexes? Women got the right to vote in 1920- black votes being suppressed legally was an issue well into the 60’s. Nice try tho.

Does that answer your question?

Also, which group has a history of making false claims of violence (or even just attraction/flirtation) and getting the other killed? (Hint: it’s white Women, not black men)

[–]kwallio 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Black men actually did have the right to vote until the north abandoned the south and the south responded for with jim crow laws. So for about 10 years, black men had the franchise and women did not. You really seem to be invested in the idea that white women have power over black men and white woman are never fetishized for their race, when multiple women in the thread have said has happened to them. Either you are trolling or are so blind to misogyny you can't see it when its perpetrated by a black man.

[–]loveSloane 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I literally said so many times that I know some black men do fetishize white Women. I haven’t said shit in defense of any men. I said that I don’t think it’s wrong to call out fetishizing black men- black people being fetishized is a thing we talk about and get upset about (we being black people, not this sub) often- I should’ve known this wasn’t a safe space to discuss the issue. Everyone wants to argue- yet nobody can tell me why it’s wrong for white women who do actually fetishize black men to be called out? Why is that a problem? It’s not calling out all white women- its calling out the ones who reinforce racism in this particular way. The thing is, everyone wants to say that it’s not common- black people see it daily, it is common for us to encounter, it literally happens even to our children. And it should be talked about. That doesn’t mean that when we fetishize others it has to be ignored- but why am i not even allowed to mention when it happens to my race, when it relates to OP’s post, without it being flipped and dismissed rather than addressed?

And yes, I do believe that white people have power over black people. Which would, in some ways and some circumstances, mean that white women have power over black men. Are black men still stronger and still capable of harm? Absolutely. I never said this wasn’t the case. What I said was- White people, including women, have power over poc. I can’t believe this is disputed.

As for the voting- idk what history book you learned from but black votes being suppressed before the civil rights movement is common knowledge. There’s whole letters and speeches and arrest reports of black people being arrested for... trying to vote. But whatever.

[–]kwallio 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

You need to become more educated on reconstruction. There were black congressmen and even senators before jim crow was instituted. It did not last long but it did happen.

[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Black men don’t have power over white women. Physically possibly because they are men, but politically or any other way? Not really. History, recent and way back, can verify this.

I think it's just a question of different kinds of power. I would say broadly speaking that white people have social power over black people, and men have personal power over women, so black men can have personal power over white women, but white women can have a kind of social power over black men - and whereas this is straightforward when it's white men or black women in question, it becomes confusing when it's black men or white women. Having one form of power but not the other will work differently depending on the specifics of the situation. A large black man and a small white women gives an advantage to the black man. A rich, well-known or respected white woman and an unknown or scrappy looking black man can shift the advantage to the white woman. It is also important what the environment is: if the issue is private, fast, physical, the man has odds whereas if it is public, contextualized, socially judged, then the white person does...

The point is, both kinds of power are real and having them overwhelmed can be life-changing. We shouldn't ignore that or shake our heads at each other about it - it's not an either/or situation, and it's not a competition. It just depends. But we should be remembering the whole time, both forms matter. Non-black women matter and black men matter, just as much as black women. Misogyny and racism are both still active forces.

[–]whateverneverpine 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Are you a black male?

[–]loveSloane 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

No lmao I don’t have to be a man to see racism.

[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

If you were a woman, might help you to see sexism.

[–]loveSloane 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Lmao I am a woman. I see sexism. I also see racism.

[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Yet you only seem to care about men.

[–]loveSloane 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Then either your reading comprehension skills are flawed or you read what you want to read. I really don’t care either way what you think. I’m a multifaceted individual- I can care about feminism and also care about black men. Black men are my family of course I care about them. What I don’t care for is not wasting my time going back with racist white feminists, which is why I’m done talking to you.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I'm not racist. But women get called out all the damn time for defending men, including the men they marry or are related to. But because you make it about race, and threaten to call anyone who disagrees a racist, you think you ought to get a pass for your blatant misogyny. I don't buy it, miss "white women produce racial porn because they're so privileged". You hate women. You may love people of your own race, but you hate women as a class and don't believe in female oppression. Call me racist all the fuck you want, misogynist.

[–]Coconaut 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

“last week that pointed to the absurdity of white women equating their oppression with racial oppression.”

I’ve never heard white woman saying massage your knee is like racism.

[–]whateverneverpine 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think this happens. A lot. Where do you live, just generally?

[–]loveSloane 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are you a black person?

[–]kunt-vonnegut 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Getting real sick of this "wHiTe WAmmAn bAd," bullshit. How long are they going to pretend "pimpin' ain't easy," wasn't the black man's "white man's burden?" They aren't ready for the truth. 72% of all slaves on earth are women and girls. Black women know what's up. SNL had Kenan Thompson as their resident minstrel for how long? Black women are not cast members; they're costumes as far as these misogynists are concerned. Fuck em. Can't wait for them to get booted off the airwaves for low ratings.

[–]IridescentAnaconda 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

3rd week in a row SNL is calling out white women, now using a sketch suggesting white women use black men's bodies for sex

Can't catch a break from either side: shameless racist fetishists or degenerate race-mixers, you decide.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

It's lovely seeing the movement cannibalise itself. Ibram Kendi's rant about interracial adoption was retweeted by Richard Spencer.

[–]kunt-vonnegut 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Woke supremacy is really something...

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

3rd week in a row SNL is calling out white women, now using a sketch suggesting white women use black men's bodies for sex (meanwhile, men in mass exploit, degrade, buy, sell and objectify female bodies on an hourly basis across the world):

I hadn't watched the videos earlier, but now that I have I think the second one is being misrepresented somewhat.

To my view, the topic and point of that video isn't that "white women use black men's bodies for sex" within countries like the US, like perhaps it could be said of the Kardashians or Chelsea Handler.

This particular video is clearly and specifically about divorced, middle-aged British women of considerable means going to Africa - and not just any African country, but only countries that once were part of the British Empire - to find black men in a newfangled form of sex tourism. Sorta the like "The Real Housewives of of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Do Africa."

All the female characters in the SNL video have British accents, and the video goes to great pains to list the specific countries it's discussing. Some of these nations were initially colonized by other European colonial powers, such as the Portuguese and the Dutch/Boers, but in time each and every country mentioned is one that came under British rule and was an important part of the BE. There is no mention of any African countries that during the period of European colonization remained solely under the rule of other European powers, such as the Congo, Niger, Benin, Senegal, Rwanda, etc.

The fact that they are talking about nations in Africa that the British successfully colonized for quite a long time, and are spoofing still-extant colonialist views amongst the British (and other Westerners/global northerners) who don't know basic geography is underscored by a line towards the end where the women speak of seeing "all of Africa - from Angola to Jamaica."

But before people can laugh at that gaffe, Kate McKinnon jumps in with "but not Egypt." Which can be taken on many levels: on the most obvious level, it can be seen as a reference to the fact that the majority of men in Egypt are Arab or Middle Eastern ethnicity, not black.

But it also can be seen as a comment on the British failure to colonize Egypt and make it part of the BE as it attempted to do before, during and after its efforts to take down the Ottoman Empire in the late 19th and early 20th century. The British failure to make Egypt part of its empire has long been a huge topic much discussed and focused on in British culture, as the works of TE Lawrence and the movie about him and his legendary exploits "Lawrence of Arabia" make clear. The fact that various Egypt factions continually thwarted British attempts to make the country part of the BE traditionally was a big thorn in the side of the BE and its advocates. As is the fact that British attempts to exert control in Egypt finally culminated in spectacular events the British powers-that-were found quite embarrassing and enraging, such as Egypt seizing and nationalizing the British and French-owned Suez canal in 1956.

The fact that this a spoof about the condescending attitudes towards Africa of well-heeled Europeans, specifically British posh people, is made clear by the opening line: "The following is a message of the tourism board of Africa." Which is poking fun at British people who see Africa as a country under one administration rather than a continent of 54 different sovereign countries. This line also struck me as a direct and pointed dig at current UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who in a widely publicized speech in 2016 infamously called Africa a country.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1898426/boris-johnson-calls-africa-a-country-instead-of-a-continent-in-massive-slip-up-at-tory-conference-while-reflecting-on-his-three-months-as-foreign-secretery/

I think if the point of this particular sketch was to criticize white women in the Western world across the board for using black men for sex, including black men in their own countries, the writers could have found many more examples close(r) to home - there'd be no need to focus on wealthy women with British accents going to Africa to bed men. One such example could have been Adele herself, as since her divorce from her white husband Simon Konecki in 2019, her lover has been the black rapper/grime artist Skepta. Adele didn't have to go far afield to meet Skepta, coz he like her is not only from the UK, he's from and is currently based in her part of London.

https://celebrity.nine.com.au/latest/adele-dating-history-past-relationships-boyfriends-husband/ac93d8e3-fcb5-43fa-ac83-671f5276bb23

[–]just_lesbian_things 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

bill burr did a monologue saying white women have the same social positioning as white men and have appropriated wokeness

Bill Burr is a gross, misogynistic piece of shit who should take his own advice and get a vasectomy to stop the spread of his worthless genes but he won't do it because he's a hypocrite on top of everything else. Everyone out there advocating for population control should lead by example and get themselves fixed.

[–]questioningtw 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah yes--Bill Burr the guy that has misogyny as his full comedy act having the sheer audacity to even criticize feminism has a voice on there. I am so tired of this acting like JKR is a monster by liberals.

I am so glad I stopped watching SNL years ago.

[–]windrunner 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I wish they criticized white men the same way they feel entitled to criticize white women, but its not as 'woke' is it

[–]divingrightintowork 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Aw I think the Africa sketch is perfectly fine - I think it's mildly humorous. I don't see it as punching any particularly bad direction / in a problematic manner... but I'm not always supes sensitive... I'll have to watch the other ones (or maybe not... we'll see)

[–]lefterfield 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I don't understand what's wrong with the Africa one either. Not really funny to me, but not seeing the offense.

[–]just_lesbian_things 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It's prostitution. Some people would argue that prostitution and sexual exploitation isn't something to joke about. For me, the analogue would be an "Asia" joke with old white men parading around with young Asian women in the background. Neither scenario is funny to me, but I can see why some people would find it offensive.

[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Is it...? My impression is that it's mocking middle-aged women who go to Africa to pick up men. I suppose they might be fetishizing the men, but the men who sleep with them might be doing the same. If so... kinda crude I guess, but I don't see how it implies prostitution?

[–]just_lesbian_things 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

middle-aged women who go to Africa to pick up men

It's sometimes called beach boys. This isn't something that just "comes up", they must have researched it. I watched a documentary about it a few years ago. There's sex tourism in Africa where middle-aged+ white women go and pay impoverished African men for sex. The premise is similar to that of middle-age white men going to Asia to pay impoverished Asian women for sex. (Outcome is different, because men are men and women are women- men don't have pimps, men don't get pregnant, and boys are not typically preyed on by older women). Of course, it doesn't describe every instance, but it's definitely a trend. The joke is on the white women who do it, but some people might argue that people being prostituted shouldn't be something to laugh about.

[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hmm, ok. Thanks for the context.

[–]Veneficca 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not just white women. I've seen articles about black and Japanese women who do the same, often in Jamaica or the DR.

[–]FediNetizen 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Not gonna lie I thought that was a decent skit

[–]YourSister 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

You're male, so...

[–]FediNetizen 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I started identifying as a woman after I read this comment so this is hate speech. Write "Penises can be female" 30 times as penance, or I'm calling your employer and having you fired, you hateful bigot.

[–]Questionable 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're an individual, so... You don't have to answer to everyone online.