How much do we owe to strangers?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

I often see it argued that women should “dismantle” or simply put aside their discomfort, fear for safety, and needs for privacy, in order to accommodate males who wish to use spaces that had previously been for women only.

How much discomfort, fear, or risk of harm is acceptable to ask of a stranger?

Is it reasonable to request or expect another person to ignore their own perceptions or to hide and lie about their perceptions?

Tra, please note “common decency” is a handwave not an answer.

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[–]FlanJam 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think it is dangerous to not voice one's discomfort and fears. It can lead to very dangerous and abusive situations. And the fact that there is backlash for speaking up is really concerning to me.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The fact that the response is backlash instead of clarification and easing concerns is incredibly alarming.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Really scary tbh. And agree totally that it’s dangerous to not voice concerns. A lot of crime against women and girls relies on how female socialisation says be nice no matter what

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"How much discomfort, fear, or risk of harm is acceptable to ask of a stranger? "

Thing is- why is it that the female strangers have to do this for the male strangers, but the male strangers wouldn’t do it for the female strangers? Women can just as easily ask TW to "dismantle or simply put aside their discomfort, fear for safety, and needs for privacy, in order to accommodate females who wish to maintain/reinstate spaces that had previously been for women only." But they clearly won’t… so…

My answer to the question is: none. Strangers don’t owe each other shit.

"Is it reasonable to request or expect another person to ignore their own perceptions or to hide and lie about their perceptions?"

No. It’s narcissistic and any one who doesn’t understand how ridiculous this request is is a walking breathing red flag of a human being.

There are emergency situations where I could understand a stranger intervening (or a stranger expecting another to intervene on their behalf)- but they aren’t obligated to intervene (unless it’s literally their job- and even then, there are circumstances when even a professional would be advised not to intervene.)

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Reliance on female socialisation? Women are accommodating/nurturing/emotionally savvy, they like protecting vulnerable little critters.

Women asking for or demanding respect, privacy, and accommodation from others are mouthy, pushy, bitchy, bossy, bad women archetypes.

Imo it’s all reliant on punishing women who don’t put on an exaggerated show of being ~nice~ (read obedient) to the men who have cast themselves as victims in their little show.

Absolutely agree about the narcissistic tendencies required to demand the general public cater to them whilst refusing to give an inch to the public.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You owe to strangers not to send death or rape threats or assault them. You owe them not to dox them or get them fired because they know humans can't change sex. Yow owe them not to ignore their personal boundaries (e.g. don't expose your naked body where you aren't welcome like certain American swimmer).

Males who identify as trans can ask the men to get over their disconfort over them. It shouldn't be difficult given men already listen to them more than what they do with women.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Very curious that those reactions, (violence, threats, doxxing) are seen as acceptable retribution from men to women who do not put aside their fears or needs.

If it was women threatening and doxxing transgender people the outrage would break Twitter.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's also counterproductive. Like, sure after seeing all those threaths, violence and doxxing, etcetera towards disenting women I'm going to get over my fears and discomfort over males in women's spaces...

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Imo it’s indicative that there was never any intention to assuage fears or to prove that they can integrate. From the get go this movement was about intimidation and dominance over women who object.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

Anyone arguing this is simply looking for an easier victim to target. No one is credibly arguing that women should put aside discomfort any more that doctors legitimately diagnosed women with hysteria.

Common decency requires people to act in a trustworthy manner and to earn trust and to not betray it when provisionally earned. Common decency does not ask anyone to put their guard down, that's groomers and creeps and pervs and crooks.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

I thought you said you were leaving?

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

I stuck my head back in, but not for long with this kind of welcome. I'm glad to see you are still running the place the same way you were.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, I was surprised to see you here again after you made a big scene about how I should ban you because you didn't like here. I don't know what exactly you expected when you still have that "lovely" flair...

[–]one1won 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There is an assumption that it has been agreed everyone holds the belief that women are sentient humans. I fear this assumption is incorrect.

As women are simply physical bodies that perform roles, not individual persons in their own right, there is no limit to “ How much discomfort, fear, or risk of harm is acceptable”. To a frightening proportion of the populace, women simply are not worthy of consideration. So, there will be no limits. None.

Substitute “strangers” for “women” if you wish. We do appear to be descending into an increasingly egocentric dystopian age.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh I seriously dont doubt that a large chunk of men, transwomen included, consider women to be subhuman animals that secretly enjoy mistreatment. Been online and seen it coming from too many horses mouths to doubt it.

It’s amazing that it’s always and only women that are expected to sacrifice for the comfort of men and yet we are told we are being spoiled, selfish, hateful, catty, jealous, and cruel if we make the same request back.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Cathy Young had an interesting adjacent piece to this - about inconsistent leftist stances on the vulnerability of women while promoting the story of black vulnerability to / fear of whites, or at least the complicated ways these narratives get picked up, play out, etc. over identity politics.

https://medium.com/arc-digital/feminism-racism-and-the-damsel-in-distress-1aa65c5172cc

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Ooooh that’s gonna be an interesting read

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Would love your thoughts!

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You should leave people alone and not harass them. I feel like if someone is gender nonconforming or visibly trans, they should be able to go through their life without being harmed. It doesn’t mean that anyone has to use certain words or allow them to use sex segregated spaces (if that’s something they want), but they shouldn’t be harassed or harmed for just existing in the world. We all deserve at least that much from strangers I feel like.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Peaking, it's interesting that your take on this question is to assume that the only people, or the principle people, at risk of being harassed or harmed when out and about in the world are those who view themselves as gender nonconforming or visibly trans.

Whereas I viewed the questions asked in the OP as being about how much discomfort, harassment and risk women (and children) should have to put up with in order to accommodate, placate and not incur the wrath of mainly male persons who view themselves as gender nonconforming or trans. After all, OP said

I often see it argued that women should “dismantle” or simply put aside their discomfort, fear for safety, and needs for privacy, in order to accommodate males who wish to use spaces that had previously been for women only.

How much discomfort, fear, or risk of harm is acceptable to ask of a stranger?

To me, it was clear as day that she was asking how much discomfort, fear or risk of harm it's reasonable to ask "ordinary" females like your mum and gran to accept in order to accommodate the pushy demands of males bearing newfangled identities. Yet you automatically reversed the parties, making it seem like in today's new world males who make gender identity claims are the ones being asked to withstand discomfort, fear and risk of bodily and emotional harm for he benefit of others - be they strangers, acquaintances, work colleagues, neighbors, classmates, teachers, team mates and others encountered in the world.

Take the situation with Lia Thomas in the locker and change rooms used by the Penn women's swims team, for example. Some press reports say that female swim team members allege that Lia doesn't take care to keep Lia's penis and testicles covered up in the locker room, and this is distressing to Lia's female teammates. The female teammates have complained to the coach and the administration about Lia's behavior, but have been told to STFU because Lia is a member of the new sacred caste.

Similarly, when the Wi Spa indecent exposure occurred, TRAs said that the women and little girl who were distressed by the sight of a male with a semi-erect penis naked in the female section were at once prudes for being bothered by seeing a stranger's male genitals in the women-only section and perverts for not averting their eyes. Laurie Penny went so far as to criticize the little girl and her family in the case, saying she the little girl was rude - if she had been raised properly, she would have learned it's impolite to look at other people's genitals and would simply have averted her eyes. Because "see no evil..."

Or what about hospitals and health services? If an immobilized very ill and/or elderly woman, or very young girl with severe disabilities, confined to bed or a wheelchair in a care home or hospital expresses alarm, horror even, and balks against being bathed, dressed or receiving intimate care from a male who claims to identify as trans or as gender nonconforming like Alok Vaid-Menon or Danielle Muscato, do you think she is being hateful and is guilty of harassing and and causing harm to the male?

The present-day view that "trans rights" gives males who claim to "identify as" trans or GNC free rein to pretty much do as they please in all sorts of contexts means girls and women are now expected to put up with indecent exposure, sexual harassment, fear and intimidation from males wherever we go - all for the benefit of mostly male gender identity ideologues, and all to the detriment of us "ordinary" women and our children. I'm saddened to see that in your assessment, our feelings and our safety don't seem to factor in at all.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hi MT! My choice to talk about what I did isn’t because don’t see or don’t agree with the GC view on the main focus of this thread, which is male trans people violating women’s boundaries. It’s a huge issue and I considered prefacing what I said to agree with the point Houseplant was making, but decided not to. I want to try and comment in a way that might create discussion rather than just agreeing with the GC posters. I feel like it’s better to focus on any point of disagreement or issue that isn’t getting discussed rather than just agreeing with everyone.

To be clear though, women don’t owe male trans people any discomfort, fear, or risk of harm. “Trans rights” and everything that goes with them are things I am against. I guess the only exception would be if there was discomfort from seeing a visibly trans or GNC person in a public place like a restaurant or the market, who is just minding their business and not using any private space. That would just be something everyone needs to tolerate because other people exist in the world and doesn’t really have anything to do with “trans rights.” This could be said of other things that might make someone uncomfortable. For example, I feel especially uncomfortable with white men or boys with certain types of southern U.S. accents. When I was a child, there was trauma that happened at the hands of boys who talked that way. That doesn’t mean that those people can’t go places in the world, I just have to cope with feeling that way.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sure, I agree harassment is wrong. I don’t agree that it is harassment to calmly question a male presence, or to expect that males will afford a modicum of respect for female rights and spaces.

Frankly I find it hard to believe that the average woman is intimidating or threatening to a male, even one who has been on hormones for a long time.

Personally I can say that I will tolerate the presence of a transwoman who is minding their own business. I understand that there is no good option when there is no space made for someone. My displeasure is not harassment or harmful to them. My discomfort is not intimidation or a threat. Their maleness is intimidating to me however. Should that be taken into account or should it be put aside for the comfort of others?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t agree that it is harassment to calmly question a male presence, or to expect that males will afford a modicum of respect for female rights and spaces.

That isn’t harassment to me either. When I say, “existing in the world” I don’t mean in sex-segregated or private spaces.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh yeah, absolutely. Just sitting on a train or buying groceries or idk just existing in public is a right I wouldn’t want taken from anyone but dangerous convicted criminals. If someone is just walking around or whatever it’s totally out of line to say anything other than maybe hello.

[–]jet199 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Frankly unless the person is a doctor, fireman or such like saving your life in an emergency situation then consideration to any discomfort can be given.

The vast majority of companies and other orgs already do this for religious groups.

for instance

If you ever have a relative die tell the hospital you are Jewish or Muslim because then they give the body over to the undertakers straight away while all the christian and atheist bodies are left mouldering away in the morgue for weeks with the necrophiliacs.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I’m sorry..what?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (162 children)

We don’t owe anything to strangers. That said, it's not OK to harass a stranger that is sharing a PUBLIC space with you if they are otherwise not bothering you. If it's a public place, they have as much right to be there as you do. It's fine if you're afraid of that man on the street, I can't control your feelings. But your discomfort alone does not preclude his right to be there.

It reminds me of something that happened at the beach a few years ago. A man was jogging around in the sand and a woman came up to me and telling me she is afraid of the man, and they are presumably strangers. Mind you, he wasn't even going near her and in fact was jogging away from her. She told me to leave the beach and even waited till I left because she was worried for my safety even though I thought her fear was irrational. The man wasn't even going near her but she was afraid solely because he was a man.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (161 children)

Is it truly harassment to politely inform someone that their presence is a violation of your safety and privacy tho? A womens changing room is not a public street, and it is not a space that anyone is entitled to access.

Is it harassment to insist on being treated with dignity and respect by someone who has already displayed disdain for those things by intruding into a place they are not entitled to enter?

Why do you pretend like it’s wild and unreasonable for women to be wary of males when it’s already been explained to you that it’s a reasonable caution?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (160 children)

Is it truly harassment to politely inform someone that their presence is a violation of your safety and privacy tho? A womens changing room is not a public street, and it is not a space that anyone is entitled to access.

A changing room at a gym or store etc is a public place. A private place is your own home and land you own. Random people are allowed to enter stores or businesses. Some places require membership, but they are still open to the public, so that means you can expect to encounter strangers. Private places are your own home. It's not a place you can expect strangers to enter and you are welcome to decide who is allowed and you are welcome to non-owners/residents people to leave if you feel they are violating your safety and privacy.

Why do you pretend like it’s wild and unreasonable for women to be wary of males when it’s already been explained to you that it’s a reasonable caution?

I'm a cis woman myself. I'm wary of people of all sexes if they are behaving oddly or doing something to make me uncomfortable. They can be strangers or sometimes even people I know. I am never wary of someone solely because of their sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Is it harassment or not? Please just this once answer the questions I ask you? Just one time gb I’m begging you.

Uhh no changing rooms and toilets are not freely open to the public. It is absolutely not a legal or social norm for a man to waltz into the womens chNging rooms. It’s an offence in many places specifically due to the things males do on those spaces. Cameras, masturbation, spying. It is mathematically proven that males do this far more than females do.

So you’re saying that women have absolutely no right whatsoever to express discomfort, fear, or a desire for privacy unless they are inside their own homes? Or can we only speak up once a violation of one of those has already occurred?

Is any safeguarding allowed other than not going past the letterbox? Can we for example, cross to the other side of the street from a man if we are walking alone or is this also just silly sexism women commit against men? Should we avoid the streets entirely?

I don’t care that you’re female and don’t fear men. You bring it up every time you post here and it’s never been an argument. It’s just a choice you made and personally feel is morally correct. That’s your own choice. It is unreasonable to act as though other women who do not feel the same are wrong or silly to have more caution than you do. I’m gonna need you to just drop that entire argument in future discussions because it’s infuriating and dismissive and does not make any point I can see other than “other women bad but I’m better”

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Trans women are not men

You always say this but can’t ever prove it. How can you make this statement as if it’s fact when you can’t prove the fact of it?

If TWAW none of us would be here discussing this or anything else on this sub.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Is it harassment or not? Please just this once answer the questions I ask you? Just one time gb I’m begging you.

If you are questioning someone's presence in a public place where that person is not bothering anyone, than yes. If someone is doing something to make you feel uncomfortable (i.e. getting to close to you) than you can confront them and it's their behavior that's the problem, not their mere presence.

Uhh no changing rooms and toilets are not freely open to the public. It is absolutely not a legal or social norm for a man to waltz into the womens chNging rooms. It’s an offence in many places specifically due to the things males do on those spaces. Cameras, masturbation, spying. It is mathematically proven that males do this far more than females do.

In my state it is also a crime to harass someone for using the restroom. When I was in college there were signs posted outside of each restroom that NY state law prohibits harassing people for using the restroom that matches their gender identity and anyone that does so will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This sign is also posted in public parks and libraries.

So you’re saying that women have absolutely no right whatsoever to express discomfort, fear, or a desire for privacy unless they are inside their own homes? Or can we only speak up once a violation of one of those has already occurred?

Do you mean all women or just cis women? When you're in public, you are not entitled to privacy. There are limited exceptions, like bathroom stalls. It wouldn't be illegal for a business to install cameras in the bathrooms, as long as they are not installing cameras in the stalls where people undress and expose intimate parts. But in a stall you have the right to expect people won't see you. Any place where strangers can see you, you cannot expect privacy.

Is any safeguarding allowed other than not going past the letterbox? Can we for example, cross to the other side of the street from a man if we are walking alone or is this also just silly sexism women commit against men? Should we avoid the streets entirely?

I personally don't care if you cross the street if you see a man. I also have the right to cross the street if I see you.

I don’t care that you’re female and don’t fear men. You bring it up every time you post here and it’s never been an argument. It’s just a choice you made and personally feel is morally correct. That’s your own choice. It is unreasonable to act as though other women who do not feel the same are wrong or silly to have more caution than you do. 

You have every right to feel how you want. I can't control what other people fear. You do not have the right to harass people in a public space who aren't bothering you.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So you believe it is harassment for say, a little old lady to gently say ‘I think you might have the wrong bathroom love!’ To a boy she sees looking at her in the womens changing room where she is half nude?

A man is at the sink of the toilets taking photos of himself and a woman is asking him to please stop using a camera in a private space. Harassment or not?

It’s odd that you assume women are going to immediately harass someone not approach the situation like a functional adult.

What do you think harassment is?

Is it harassment to tell someone to fuck off and kill themselves if you notice they took a second glance at you? If so men harass me in the womens room not the other way around.

Is it harassment to go deliberately linger around someone that you are aware is frightened of you?

Is it harassment to not correctly guess that a random man would prefer to be perceived as a female and to address him as a man?

Is it harassment to say “excuse me but I am uncomfortable” and to then leave?

I genuinely have no idea what you think harassment is tbh.

Once again gb, can you answer the question instead of dismissing it as “that’s just ur opinion lul”

Should women have any safeguards in public? Should women simply stay indoors if any safeguarding we do is harassment according to you? I’m not asking a wishywashy can we please. I’m asking you to definitely state yes or no, should women just stay home or if women should be allowed to safeguard themselves.

If you don’t care if I and other women want to avoid men, why do you make such a point to always mention how you don’t do that and always have some example of another woman doing it being bad?

Seems like you absolutely do care because you have negative ideas or feelings towards women who do not share what appears to be an unwavering trust that sexed abuse is a lie we made up.

You cannot be unaware that I have never included transwomen when using the word women. If I am referring to transwomen I will say transwomen or men so as to be accurate and clear.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

So you believe it is harassment for say, a little old lady to gently say ‘I think you might have the wrong bathroom love!’ To a boy she sees looking at her in the womens changing room where she is half nude?

I don't believe that’s harassment. But if the man says he is in the right place and the woman keeps pressing him then yes that would be harassment. Here is a post from the old GC where poster harass a trans woman in the restroom.

https://archive.ph/IPJI4#selection-2051.0-2058.0

Was shamed last night for asking why there was a man in the women’s restroom.

I heard the voice of a man through the stall door at a bar last night and was taken aback. Why was there a man in the women’s restroom??? I asked why he was in there and was yelled at by him and his friend for misgendering him. We’re being shamed in our own restrooms now for legitimate questions of why a male voice would be heard in the women’s restroom. I’m so angry.

That is an example of harassment. One person even commented "The bar owner should step up against aggressive behaviour." even though no one was being aggressive per the OP.

A man is at the sink of the toilets taking photos of himself and a woman is asking him to please stop using a camera in a private space. Harassment or not?

Cis women also take photos of themselves in public restroom mirrors. I haven't seen it in person, but I have seen Facebook photos of what is obviously a public bathroom. If cis women can do it, other groups can also.

Is it harassment to tell someone to fuck off and kill themselves if you notice they took a second glance at you? If so men harass me in the womens room not the other way around.

Men tell you to fuck off and kill yourself? I’m sorry you experience this. I also glance at people when I'm out on the street and no one has done this to me. I wonder why. I wouldn't say it's harassment unless they are doing it in a way where you feel like you must leave the area.

Is it harassment to go deliberately linger around someone that you are aware is frightened of you?

Depends on the context.

Is it harassment to not correctly guess that a random man would prefer to be perceived as a female and to address him as a man?

Trans women are not men. I will use pronouns based on a person’s appearance. If someone tells me to use different pronouns, I will be happy to. I think it's rude to delicately not use someone’s pronouns.

Is it harassment to say “excuse me but I am uncomfortable” and to then leave?

No. You want to leave then leave. I also have the right to do this when I see you and it's not harassment.

Should women have any safeguards in public?

Everyone should have safeguards in public. It's not specific to women. I personally keep my belongings to myself so no one steals them or robs me. When I sell something online to a stranger we always meet in a public place, which has always been the local library because they have staff and security. I would never meet a stranger from the internet in a private place.

That said, if the "safeguards" you are referring to are "only X group of random strangers are allowed in this place but not Y group of random strangers" then no.

If you don’t care if I and other women want to avoid men, why do you make such a point to always mention how you don’t do that and always have some example of another woman doing it being bad?

If you want to avoid men, fine. If you want to run away when you see a man, fine. But you don't have the right to ask a man to leave a place that is open to the PUBLIC.

You cannot be unaware that I have never included transwomen when using the word women. If I am referring to transwomen I will say transwomen or men so as to be accurate and clear.

I guess I speak a different language than you but when I hear women I think all women, cis and trans. That's how I use the term myself. Sometimes I use the term women to refer to people who outwardly present as woman, regardless of their birth sex or how they identify when I'm talking about sexual harassment, etc.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So the man in the womens room yelled at her but she’s harassing him because she correctly points out he doesn’t belong there?

Interesting.

I’m not asking if women take selfies too. I’m asking if it harassment to ask a man to stop using his camera in the womens toilets. Yes or no gb, that’s all you need to say.

You think I antagonised the insecure man who knew damn well he didn’t belong on the womens toilets? I harassed him into saying “fuck off and kill yourself” to me and your reasoning for assuming this is because, in entirely different situations, it isn’t happening to you?

Did you really think that was any sort of answer to the question gb?

What makes the changing room legally accessible only to women a public place men can freely use? Is it just that you personally think that all gates are inherently bad and should not be kept? Or is it specifically women who absolutely may not have anything to protect them from the fifty percent of the population that commits over eighty percent of all crimes against women? What justifies accepting additional physical risk to women to protect men from an emotional insult?

I don’t care that you choose to call men women. Just don’t assume other people are going to do it.

Also just fyi but the whole “I lock my doors! I hold onto my purse! I don’t let strangers in my house!” Is heading towards the same rhetoric victim blamers use. Careful there.

Could you please answer whether or not women who do need safeguarding because they understand crime rates and risks should just stay at home or not.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (153 children)

A changing room at a gym or store etc is a public place

Why do you do this? Why do you act like you don’t know exactly what we are talking about? It does nothing but allow you to avoid addressing the topic while we all waste time trying to get you to address the topic. And then you ghost instead of ever actually addressing the topic lol

You know damn well that, while yes, these are technically public spaces (rather, they are semi private spaces in public spaces), they are spaces that are intended to be sex segregated. So no, actually, a man/male should not have access to those spaces despite them being in a public space.

I'm a cis woman myself. I'm wary of people of all sexes if they are behaving oddly or doing something to make me uncomfortable. They can be strangers or sometimes even people I know. I am never wary of someone solely because of their sex.

Must be nice. All women aren’t like you. Most of us have been taught to be wary of males (as a precaution) from a young age. Some of us don’t need to be taught to be wary because shit has already happened to make us wary from a young age. These subjects and issues are about all of us, not just you. I still can’t understand how you don’t get that. I never will understand how you don’t get that.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (152 children)

Why do you do this? Why do you act like you don’t know exactly what we are talking about? It does nothing but allow you to avoid addressing the topic while we all waste time trying to get you to address the topic. And then you ghost instead of ever actually addressing the topic lol

I talked about changing because u/Houseplant brought up changing rooms as an example. If this is not about changing rooms, than what is it about?

You know damn well that, while yes, these are technically public spaces (rather, they are semi private spaces in public spaces), they are spaces that are intended to be sex segregated. So no, actually, a man/male should not have access to those spaces despite them being in a public space.

I don't think these spaces should be segregated to begin with. This is now the law in many areas. My state prohibits "denying the use of rest rooms, locker rooms, or other facilities consistent with a person's gender identity".

https://dhr.ny.gov/genda

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (151 children)

Im saying you know the concept of changing rooms being sexed. So saying what you’re saying about public spaces is you avoiding the point. Changing rooms and bathrooms are meant to be (semi) private (sex based) spaces in public spaces. You know this. You understand this. It does nothing to act like you don’t.

And these facilities are still sex segregated- aside from people who think their sense of self matter more than actual reality. Gender identity can’t even be proven or accurately defined yet somehow how a man feels about himself matters more than the equality and safety of females as a whole.

Jim Crow laws were laws once. Humans could literally own, buy, and sell other humans. Husbands used to be able to rape their wives and the wives would be told that it wasn’t rape because they were marrried. Children ( actually no, pretty much just exclusively young girls, regardless of what their gender identity may have been) could legally be married to grown men.

Just because a law exists doesn’t mean it’s not absolutely wrong.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (150 children)

Im saying you know the concept of changing rooms being sexed.

I know the concept of changing rooms being sexed. You know I don't agree with sexed spaces.

And these facilities are still sex segregated- aside from people who think their sense of self matter more than actual reality. Gender identity can’t even be proven or accurately defined yet somehow how a man feels about himself matters more than the equality and safety of females as a whole.

But laws are changing. School districts are changing their policies, states are changing their laws, the YMCA and Planet Fitness changed their policy.

Just because a law exists doesn’t mean it’s not absolutely wrong.

We know you want sex segregated spaces. We don't.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (149 children)

I just feel like you only think about what you want and what an incredibly small portion of the population wants. It’s so incredibly selfish, harmful, and dangerous to others.

Jim Crow laws got worse before they got better, so idk why you think laws changing means they are fair and reasonable laws in the first place.

It will never be okay to hold 99% of the population hostage to the views and beliefs of 1%. Not ever. And any community that needs to step on the rights, equality and dignity of another group to get what they want is nothing less than toxic.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (148 children)

I just feel like you only think about what you want and what an incredibly small portion of the population wants.

Proof?

It will never be okay to hold 99% of the population hostage to the views and beliefs of 1%. Not ever.

No one is being held hostage. People can vote if they wish.

And any community that needs to step on the rights, equality and dignity of another group to get what they want is nothing less than toxic.

Sharing facilities with you is not violating your rights.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How people can vote when TRAs keep covering up the facts? Here's an example of your own country. First the ACLU attempted to block a request for information about how many TW were housed in women's prisons in Washington. Now lawmakers want to pass a law so citizens cannot request this information. Why so much secretism if there is no problems over housing TW in the female state and most Americans believe sex is meaningless?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (144 children)

Your comments all through out this sub are the proof and yes, males using their male privilege to rob women and girls of spaces free from them are absolutely violating our rights. We can’t even play sports without men forcing their way into that anymore. Even if they weren’t violating our rights they’re erasing us. You’ll see one day. And when you do I hope this sub is still here so I can say I told you so.

The reason I know you’ll see one day is because you’ve never commented anything that has come across as your own independent thought. It’s so obvious that you’re repeating the party lines that it’s pretty clear that you’ve been indoctrinated. You’ll learn. Most women eventually do.