How much do we owe to strangers?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (162 children)

We don’t owe anything to strangers. That said, it's not OK to harass a stranger that is sharing a PUBLIC space with you if they are otherwise not bothering you. If it's a public place, they have as much right to be there as you do. It's fine if you're afraid of that man on the street, I can't control your feelings. But your discomfort alone does not preclude his right to be there.

It reminds me of something that happened at the beach a few years ago. A man was jogging around in the sand and a woman came up to me and telling me she is afraid of the man, and they are presumably strangers. Mind you, he wasn't even going near her and in fact was jogging away from her. She told me to leave the beach and even waited till I left because she was worried for my safety even though I thought her fear was irrational. The man wasn't even going near her but she was afraid solely because he was a man.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (161 children)

Is it truly harassment to politely inform someone that their presence is a violation of your safety and privacy tho? A womens changing room is not a public street, and it is not a space that anyone is entitled to access.

Is it harassment to insist on being treated with dignity and respect by someone who has already displayed disdain for those things by intruding into a place they are not entitled to enter?

Why do you pretend like it’s wild and unreasonable for women to be wary of males when it’s already been explained to you that it’s a reasonable caution?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (160 children)

Is it truly harassment to politely inform someone that their presence is a violation of your safety and privacy tho? A womens changing room is not a public street, and it is not a space that anyone is entitled to access.

A changing room at a gym or store etc is a public place. A private place is your own home and land you own. Random people are allowed to enter stores or businesses. Some places require membership, but they are still open to the public, so that means you can expect to encounter strangers. Private places are your own home. It's not a place you can expect strangers to enter and you are welcome to decide who is allowed and you are welcome to non-owners/residents people to leave if you feel they are violating your safety and privacy.

Why do you pretend like it’s wild and unreasonable for women to be wary of males when it’s already been explained to you that it’s a reasonable caution?

I'm a cis woman myself. I'm wary of people of all sexes if they are behaving oddly or doing something to make me uncomfortable. They can be strangers or sometimes even people I know. I am never wary of someone solely because of their sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Is it harassment or not? Please just this once answer the questions I ask you? Just one time gb I’m begging you.

Uhh no changing rooms and toilets are not freely open to the public. It is absolutely not a legal or social norm for a man to waltz into the womens chNging rooms. It’s an offence in many places specifically due to the things males do on those spaces. Cameras, masturbation, spying. It is mathematically proven that males do this far more than females do.

So you’re saying that women have absolutely no right whatsoever to express discomfort, fear, or a desire for privacy unless they are inside their own homes? Or can we only speak up once a violation of one of those has already occurred?

Is any safeguarding allowed other than not going past the letterbox? Can we for example, cross to the other side of the street from a man if we are walking alone or is this also just silly sexism women commit against men? Should we avoid the streets entirely?

I don’t care that you’re female and don’t fear men. You bring it up every time you post here and it’s never been an argument. It’s just a choice you made and personally feel is morally correct. That’s your own choice. It is unreasonable to act as though other women who do not feel the same are wrong or silly to have more caution than you do. I’m gonna need you to just drop that entire argument in future discussions because it’s infuriating and dismissive and does not make any point I can see other than “other women bad but I’m better”

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Trans women are not men

You always say this but can’t ever prove it. How can you make this statement as if it’s fact when you can’t prove the fact of it?

If TWAW none of us would be here discussing this or anything else on this sub.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Is it harassment or not? Please just this once answer the questions I ask you? Just one time gb I’m begging you.

If you are questioning someone's presence in a public place where that person is not bothering anyone, than yes. If someone is doing something to make you feel uncomfortable (i.e. getting to close to you) than you can confront them and it's their behavior that's the problem, not their mere presence.

Uhh no changing rooms and toilets are not freely open to the public. It is absolutely not a legal or social norm for a man to waltz into the womens chNging rooms. It’s an offence in many places specifically due to the things males do on those spaces. Cameras, masturbation, spying. It is mathematically proven that males do this far more than females do.

In my state it is also a crime to harass someone for using the restroom. When I was in college there were signs posted outside of each restroom that NY state law prohibits harassing people for using the restroom that matches their gender identity and anyone that does so will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This sign is also posted in public parks and libraries.

So you’re saying that women have absolutely no right whatsoever to express discomfort, fear, or a desire for privacy unless they are inside their own homes? Or can we only speak up once a violation of one of those has already occurred?

Do you mean all women or just cis women? When you're in public, you are not entitled to privacy. There are limited exceptions, like bathroom stalls. It wouldn't be illegal for a business to install cameras in the bathrooms, as long as they are not installing cameras in the stalls where people undress and expose intimate parts. But in a stall you have the right to expect people won't see you. Any place where strangers can see you, you cannot expect privacy.

Is any safeguarding allowed other than not going past the letterbox? Can we for example, cross to the other side of the street from a man if we are walking alone or is this also just silly sexism women commit against men? Should we avoid the streets entirely?

I personally don't care if you cross the street if you see a man. I also have the right to cross the street if I see you.

I don’t care that you’re female and don’t fear men. You bring it up every time you post here and it’s never been an argument. It’s just a choice you made and personally feel is morally correct. That’s your own choice. It is unreasonable to act as though other women who do not feel the same are wrong or silly to have more caution than you do. 

You have every right to feel how you want. I can't control what other people fear. You do not have the right to harass people in a public space who aren't bothering you.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So you believe it is harassment for say, a little old lady to gently say ‘I think you might have the wrong bathroom love!’ To a boy she sees looking at her in the womens changing room where she is half nude?

A man is at the sink of the toilets taking photos of himself and a woman is asking him to please stop using a camera in a private space. Harassment or not?

It’s odd that you assume women are going to immediately harass someone not approach the situation like a functional adult.

What do you think harassment is?

Is it harassment to tell someone to fuck off and kill themselves if you notice they took a second glance at you? If so men harass me in the womens room not the other way around.

Is it harassment to go deliberately linger around someone that you are aware is frightened of you?

Is it harassment to not correctly guess that a random man would prefer to be perceived as a female and to address him as a man?

Is it harassment to say “excuse me but I am uncomfortable” and to then leave?

I genuinely have no idea what you think harassment is tbh.

Once again gb, can you answer the question instead of dismissing it as “that’s just ur opinion lul”

Should women have any safeguards in public? Should women simply stay indoors if any safeguarding we do is harassment according to you? I’m not asking a wishywashy can we please. I’m asking you to definitely state yes or no, should women just stay home or if women should be allowed to safeguard themselves.

If you don’t care if I and other women want to avoid men, why do you make such a point to always mention how you don’t do that and always have some example of another woman doing it being bad?

Seems like you absolutely do care because you have negative ideas or feelings towards women who do not share what appears to be an unwavering trust that sexed abuse is a lie we made up.

You cannot be unaware that I have never included transwomen when using the word women. If I am referring to transwomen I will say transwomen or men so as to be accurate and clear.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

So you believe it is harassment for say, a little old lady to gently say ‘I think you might have the wrong bathroom love!’ To a boy she sees looking at her in the womens changing room where she is half nude?

I don't believe that’s harassment. But if the man says he is in the right place and the woman keeps pressing him then yes that would be harassment. Here is a post from the old GC where poster harass a trans woman in the restroom.

https://archive.ph/IPJI4#selection-2051.0-2058.0

Was shamed last night for asking why there was a man in the women’s restroom.

I heard the voice of a man through the stall door at a bar last night and was taken aback. Why was there a man in the women’s restroom??? I asked why he was in there and was yelled at by him and his friend for misgendering him. We’re being shamed in our own restrooms now for legitimate questions of why a male voice would be heard in the women’s restroom. I’m so angry.

That is an example of harassment. One person even commented "The bar owner should step up against aggressive behaviour." even though no one was being aggressive per the OP.

A man is at the sink of the toilets taking photos of himself and a woman is asking him to please stop using a camera in a private space. Harassment or not?

Cis women also take photos of themselves in public restroom mirrors. I haven't seen it in person, but I have seen Facebook photos of what is obviously a public bathroom. If cis women can do it, other groups can also.

Is it harassment to tell someone to fuck off and kill themselves if you notice they took a second glance at you? If so men harass me in the womens room not the other way around.

Men tell you to fuck off and kill yourself? I’m sorry you experience this. I also glance at people when I'm out on the street and no one has done this to me. I wonder why. I wouldn't say it's harassment unless they are doing it in a way where you feel like you must leave the area.

Is it harassment to go deliberately linger around someone that you are aware is frightened of you?

Depends on the context.

Is it harassment to not correctly guess that a random man would prefer to be perceived as a female and to address him as a man?

Trans women are not men. I will use pronouns based on a person’s appearance. If someone tells me to use different pronouns, I will be happy to. I think it's rude to delicately not use someone’s pronouns.

Is it harassment to say “excuse me but I am uncomfortable” and to then leave?

No. You want to leave then leave. I also have the right to do this when I see you and it's not harassment.

Should women have any safeguards in public?

Everyone should have safeguards in public. It's not specific to women. I personally keep my belongings to myself so no one steals them or robs me. When I sell something online to a stranger we always meet in a public place, which has always been the local library because they have staff and security. I would never meet a stranger from the internet in a private place.

That said, if the "safeguards" you are referring to are "only X group of random strangers are allowed in this place but not Y group of random strangers" then no.

If you don’t care if I and other women want to avoid men, why do you make such a point to always mention how you don’t do that and always have some example of another woman doing it being bad?

If you want to avoid men, fine. If you want to run away when you see a man, fine. But you don't have the right to ask a man to leave a place that is open to the PUBLIC.

You cannot be unaware that I have never included transwomen when using the word women. If I am referring to transwomen I will say transwomen or men so as to be accurate and clear.

I guess I speak a different language than you but when I hear women I think all women, cis and trans. That's how I use the term myself. Sometimes I use the term women to refer to people who outwardly present as woman, regardless of their birth sex or how they identify when I'm talking about sexual harassment, etc.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So the man in the womens room yelled at her but she’s harassing him because she correctly points out he doesn’t belong there?

Interesting.

I’m not asking if women take selfies too. I’m asking if it harassment to ask a man to stop using his camera in the womens toilets. Yes or no gb, that’s all you need to say.

You think I antagonised the insecure man who knew damn well he didn’t belong on the womens toilets? I harassed him into saying “fuck off and kill yourself” to me and your reasoning for assuming this is because, in entirely different situations, it isn’t happening to you?

Did you really think that was any sort of answer to the question gb?

What makes the changing room legally accessible only to women a public place men can freely use? Is it just that you personally think that all gates are inherently bad and should not be kept? Or is it specifically women who absolutely may not have anything to protect them from the fifty percent of the population that commits over eighty percent of all crimes against women? What justifies accepting additional physical risk to women to protect men from an emotional insult?

I don’t care that you choose to call men women. Just don’t assume other people are going to do it.

Also just fyi but the whole “I lock my doors! I hold onto my purse! I don’t let strangers in my house!” Is heading towards the same rhetoric victim blamers use. Careful there.

Could you please answer whether or not women who do need safeguarding because they understand crime rates and risks should just stay at home or not.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (153 children)

A changing room at a gym or store etc is a public place

Why do you do this? Why do you act like you don’t know exactly what we are talking about? It does nothing but allow you to avoid addressing the topic while we all waste time trying to get you to address the topic. And then you ghost instead of ever actually addressing the topic lol

You know damn well that, while yes, these are technically public spaces (rather, they are semi private spaces in public spaces), they are spaces that are intended to be sex segregated. So no, actually, a man/male should not have access to those spaces despite them being in a public space.

I'm a cis woman myself. I'm wary of people of all sexes if they are behaving oddly or doing something to make me uncomfortable. They can be strangers or sometimes even people I know. I am never wary of someone solely because of their sex.

Must be nice. All women aren’t like you. Most of us have been taught to be wary of males (as a precaution) from a young age. Some of us don’t need to be taught to be wary because shit has already happened to make us wary from a young age. These subjects and issues are about all of us, not just you. I still can’t understand how you don’t get that. I never will understand how you don’t get that.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (152 children)

Why do you do this? Why do you act like you don’t know exactly what we are talking about? It does nothing but allow you to avoid addressing the topic while we all waste time trying to get you to address the topic. And then you ghost instead of ever actually addressing the topic lol

I talked about changing because u/Houseplant brought up changing rooms as an example. If this is not about changing rooms, than what is it about?

You know damn well that, while yes, these are technically public spaces (rather, they are semi private spaces in public spaces), they are spaces that are intended to be sex segregated. So no, actually, a man/male should not have access to those spaces despite them being in a public space.

I don't think these spaces should be segregated to begin with. This is now the law in many areas. My state prohibits "denying the use of rest rooms, locker rooms, or other facilities consistent with a person's gender identity".

https://dhr.ny.gov/genda

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (151 children)

Im saying you know the concept of changing rooms being sexed. So saying what you’re saying about public spaces is you avoiding the point. Changing rooms and bathrooms are meant to be (semi) private (sex based) spaces in public spaces. You know this. You understand this. It does nothing to act like you don’t.

And these facilities are still sex segregated- aside from people who think their sense of self matter more than actual reality. Gender identity can’t even be proven or accurately defined yet somehow how a man feels about himself matters more than the equality and safety of females as a whole.

Jim Crow laws were laws once. Humans could literally own, buy, and sell other humans. Husbands used to be able to rape their wives and the wives would be told that it wasn’t rape because they were marrried. Children ( actually no, pretty much just exclusively young girls, regardless of what their gender identity may have been) could legally be married to grown men.

Just because a law exists doesn’t mean it’s not absolutely wrong.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (150 children)

Im saying you know the concept of changing rooms being sexed.

I know the concept of changing rooms being sexed. You know I don't agree with sexed spaces.

And these facilities are still sex segregated- aside from people who think their sense of self matter more than actual reality. Gender identity can’t even be proven or accurately defined yet somehow how a man feels about himself matters more than the equality and safety of females as a whole.

But laws are changing. School districts are changing their policies, states are changing their laws, the YMCA and Planet Fitness changed their policy.

Just because a law exists doesn’t mean it’s not absolutely wrong.

We know you want sex segregated spaces. We don't.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (149 children)

I just feel like you only think about what you want and what an incredibly small portion of the population wants. It’s so incredibly selfish, harmful, and dangerous to others.

Jim Crow laws got worse before they got better, so idk why you think laws changing means they are fair and reasonable laws in the first place.

It will never be okay to hold 99% of the population hostage to the views and beliefs of 1%. Not ever. And any community that needs to step on the rights, equality and dignity of another group to get what they want is nothing less than toxic.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (148 children)

I just feel like you only think about what you want and what an incredibly small portion of the population wants.

Proof?

It will never be okay to hold 99% of the population hostage to the views and beliefs of 1%. Not ever.

No one is being held hostage. People can vote if they wish.

And any community that needs to step on the rights, equality and dignity of another group to get what they want is nothing less than toxic.

Sharing facilities with you is not violating your rights.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How people can vote when TRAs keep covering up the facts? Here's an example of your own country. First the ACLU attempted to block a request for information about how many TW were housed in women's prisons in Washington. Now lawmakers want to pass a law so citizens cannot request this information. Why so much secretism if there is no problems over housing TW in the female state and most Americans believe sex is meaningless?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (144 children)

Your comments all through out this sub are the proof and yes, males using their male privilege to rob women and girls of spaces free from them are absolutely violating our rights. We can’t even play sports without men forcing their way into that anymore. Even if they weren’t violating our rights they’re erasing us. You’ll see one day. And when you do I hope this sub is still here so I can say I told you so.

The reason I know you’ll see one day is because you’ve never commented anything that has come across as your own independent thought. It’s so obvious that you’re repeating the party lines that it’s pretty clear that you’ve been indoctrinated. You’ll learn. Most women eventually do.