thisneverhappens is being actively maintained on ovarit

TalkToTheVoid · 2021-11-27T18:54:14+00:00

Hello. Could I get a code for Ovarit please? Thank you.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-10-13T10:44:31+00:00

This was so annoying to read.

Basically what she's pretending to say can be summed up by saying sexual partners should communicate about and respect each other's sexual boundaries and needs. That's it. Every single human being alive will have needs and wants and preferences that their partner won't be able to guess. On-going communication and consent is important. Yes. For everyone.

What this person seems to want to say is that because she's trans/nonbinary, her sexual boundaries and needs are extra special and the entire focus of an encounter should be on her because she's extra special, and she's using the trans label is a way to ensure she gets to do that.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-10-12T09:54:58+00:00

I think I always knew and understood it, but I wanted it to not be true, so I avoided acknowledging it. I'm in my mid thirties and in recent months the whole TRA issue made me confront all of the ways women are considered and treated as lesser. Also, I don't think of it as "men", I think of it as dominant society. Which has been built mostly by men, but includes women propagating it as well.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-10-07T19:15:24+00:00

I didn't know about Rose of Dawn's surgeries. I thought she was mostly just dressing as a woman and maybe taking hormones. I still feel a bit conflicted about it though... I know she experiences dysphoria. I can't relate but I feel sympathy I guess? She wants to alleviate it by changing her body to be as close to female as she can manage. That's what dysphoria does to people who experience it right? None of the surgeries she's undertaken seem like they're about becoming an over-sexualized doll, so to me it feels like whatever she's done is driven by a desire to feel better, not really to be a stereotype.

I couldn't find cartoon imagery other than at the start of her videos. Did you mean that? Or something else? Based on just that, I agree with you that using a Jessica Rabbit sort of image to represent herself does make it seem like that's her ideal for herself.

I still feel inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt though. We've all come up in a world where we're constantly bombarded by images of what an ideal woman is supposed to look like. All of us have to fight that feeling of unworthiness for not having that stupid ideal body. Rose has fallen victim to that messaging too, in that when she imagines how she wishes her body was, she imagines the ideal we're all sold. It does feel odd that she's used that image for herself, but I don't know, I still feel she's not really driven by sexist stereotypes in her aesthetics.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-10-06T18:22:36+00:00

I'm guessing they'll still include trans men, because they know why they started offering a "women's" prize to begin with. I wonder if any transmen will want to win it. I can't wait to see a transwoman win it. It'll be so empowering for women when that happens.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-10-06T18:11:56+00:00

Sorry for replying again, but I realized I mentally fixated on Blair White when I first read your post, but you've also mentioned Rose of Dawn. I haven't seen a lot of Rose of Dawn, only a couple of videos and then her appearance on that morning show where she defended JKR. My impression of Rose of Dawn was that they're a male person who likes wearing dresses, makeup, and growing their hair long, and has dysphoria, but that's about it really. I didn't see her aesthetic as the same as Blair White who seems to want to look like a Kardashian. So to me Rose of Dawn seems pretty sensible in that sense, and not someone who's trying to ape some barbiegirl idea of "feminine". Am I missing something?

Also, I read some of your other comments about there not being enough men who choose a more feminine aesthetic without denying their maleness, and I agree with you, that it would be wonderful if there was more of that in the world. That's what I thought Alok Menon was to begin with, but I realized I was wrong. I did remember Billy Porter though. What do you think about him? I also remembered reading about Will Smith's son and Harry Styles as men who've expressed nothing about not being men, but whose aesthetics include feminine elements. I haven't seen enough, but reading about them made me feel hopeful.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-10-06T17:45:42+00:00

Yea that makes sense.

I used to think being polite in this matter was not much to ask, and for the most part I think I'd rather be polite than not and I'll call whoever whatever they want. But now, after reading a bunch, I think the enforcing of pronouns and equating mistakes in this matter with "violence" is a deliberate attempt to control.

I'm a reclusive person and I struggle with anxiety. I went to a conference/seminar sort of thing once, and they had a room of 30 people all say their pronouns out loud. Then when I was in a smaller group with a few people, there was a female person there whose pronouns were not she/her, but I couldn't remember what they were and so I had to ask again and the whole process was nerve-racking. Then I went on to default to "she/her" several times, by mistake, and feel like the worst person on the planet. In a space where we were supposed to discuss other ideas and concepts, my experience was consumed with getting this person's pronouns right. No one yelled at me or anything, so definitely me being an anxious mess is on me, but it's the TRA movement that's set up the whole specter of "misgendering as violence".

If there were no "literal violence" discourse around pronoun usage, I don't think it would matter, nor would it be a big deal, and most people would be willing to use preferred pronouns, because most people want to get along.

In online discussions and discussions with friends I've found my pronoun usage for trans people to be all over the place, and I'm not working too hard to make it go in either direction. I do wonder though, if I ever meet a trans person who is a jerk, will I be petty and use their biological sex based pronouns? It isn't usual for me to be petty, but if they're a jerk about gender issues, I wonder if I will feel compelled to stand-up to them through pronouns. I hope not, but all of this feels like a very confusing place to be in, and doesn't seem fair that it has to be that way.

"Yeah as a feminine presenting guy, I've been called "miss" or "her" a few times (especially at my job sometimes lol) but I just shrug it off." I knew a very male presenting lesbian who regularly got called "sir" because along with presentation, she had a relatively deep voice for a woman. She shrugged it off too, but sometimes people used it to harass her because she wasn't feminine. She didn't like that. I imagine it's the same for you?

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-10-05T19:06:36+00:00

I don't think you're (or anyone is) rude or wrong or mean in calling trans people by the pronouns matching their actual sex.

Personally, I haven't known too many trans people in real life, but I have tried to call them by the pronouns they prefer. I have done it to be polite, and I've found that I struggle to stop being polite in this way, so for now I'll likely continue. Mostly because I feel distress when I am not, and sometimes because I either like or am indifferent to the trans person involved and I want to be accommodating to them. I don't see trans women as women or trans men as men at all though. Never have.

Over the last few months, I've realized that much like "TWAW", this "must use preferred pronouns" decree isn't about just politeness. It literally is a form of controlling someone's feelings. We make word associations in our heads and "she/her" and "he/his/him" are linked to different ideas and thoughts and feelings that come up in us when we use them. Using the opposite pronoun from someone's sex can cause cognitive dissonance. It can alter perceptions. It can plain old confuse us or cause us distress when we use the "wrong" pronoun. All of which is a burden, and not one trans people have a right to demand anyone carries for them.

I do think it's easier to use someone's preferred pronouns when they pass well. They don't deserve it more or anything just because they're able to play up to stereotypes, but I think it makes the burden on the other person lesser.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-24T15:35:51+00:00

Wow. This is so upsetting and disturbing. The stuff of horror movies. These and other such comments and posts keep making me think about the movie Get Out. I can imagine, that if there were a way to transfer consciousness and hijack someone's body, all of these men, who fetishize female bodies and their functions, would have no qualms in bidding on and taking over a woman's body. It would be a thriving underworld business.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-16T16:02:30+00:00

I was wondering more about whether a straight woman who likes masculine men would be categorized as androphilic heterosexual? And a straight man who likes feminine women as gynephilic heterosexual?

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-16T16:01:15+00:00

I think I mostly agree with you. That one-time sex scenario is the only one I thought of where a transwoman can lie about her trans status and get away with it.

I think, or hope, it would be very hard for any man to date a transwoman and sleep with her and hang out with her regularly, and not notice that she is not a biological woman.

Although I do wonder. This thread reminded me of an episode of How I Met Your Mother. In it the lead is concerned about some secret his girlfriend has and is imagining the worst case scenarios and in one of them he's marrying her and she says "I used to be a dude." I always wondered if it was really possible for a transwoman to fool someone like that. Maybe some straight men are just so self-obsessed that they couldn't care lesser about their partner's body, or about female-kind in general. It's not a fun thought, but sadly I don't think it's impossible for straight men to be that ignorant.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-15T18:13:27+00:00

Separately, do you know if there is such a thing as androphilic heterosexual?

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-15T18:02:09+00:00

I think attraction matters.

So if a man isn't immediately entirely put off by someone being trans but is curious about seeing his own response, I think I'd consider him curious. I think people can learn about their sexuality through pushing their boundaries. I think sexual attraction is very clear and definite but sometimes people do sexual things even without sexual attraction. So I suppose I'd call the behaviour bisexual, but I wouldn't consider the person bisexual if they aren't explicitly attracted to the trans person.

I was considering a scenario where a man is very dense or very naive and very unaware about female bodies and he meets a transwoman who passes and they have sex once and the transperson doesn't disclose their transness ever or for years. I think I would consider the man straight still, even though they did engage in sex with another male.

Well I've not been in the situation so I can't say for sure what I would do, but from where I am right now, yes, I would most definitely leave her. I would feel grossly lied to and violated, and incredibly stupid that I didn't notice it, and I wouldn't want to continue to engage in any sexual activity with them. Both because they lied, and because they're female and now I know.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-15T17:46:18+00:00

So much this! My journey has been similar to yours. I always felt like something was off with the rabid insistence of TWAW, especially when it came to sports and sex, because then it's about more than how one feels. But overall I thought okay fine, expand "women". Whatever. I want to be accepting and supportive of people who're struggling with being different from most of the world, so I'll just go along with some things even though I don't believe them. I hate it, but I'll even accept the whole "cis" thing, just as long as there is a clear way to group biological women. The JK Rowling debacle made me look more closely and now the insidious nature of TWAW is so much more apparent to me.

Also, even if there is some way a "woman" feels and some women have a sense of it, how on earth would a transwoman know what that is? It isn't an emotion. All a transwoman knows is how she feels. She knows nothing about how any other woman on the planet feels like a woman. I don't know that about any other woman on the planet. Even when someone with dysphoria gets surgery and feels better, all they know is they feel better than they did earlier. They don't know what I feel or what the 3.5 billion women on the planet feel.

Because of this whole gender ideology, I had friends telling me they think there is a distinct part of them that "feels" female. Okay. I don't have that. Now what? Even if you have it, it's obviously not universal to all women, and I'll be damned if you try to tell me I'm agender or genderless or whatever else. You don't get to define me for me right? I'm a woman.

It's so senseless and pointless and annoying.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-15T17:21:15+00:00

I couldn't get through the entire video.

What's pissing me off the MOST about this is that there are people out there who thought the sentence "you don't get to be offended by science" is transphobic! What? WHAT? I mean what? Why defend this at all???

I was expecting the t-shirt to say something about women and ovaries or vaginas or birth or something along those lines. Something that transmen share with women and transwomen can't relate to and so they all get upset. But this was just a general statement about science.

Such complaints should've just been ignored. Why did she even bother addressing them? Ugh!

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-15T17:05:34+00:00

I think it should be considered rape, but I don't know whether it would be. It's beyond contemptible at the very least, and an incredibly scary thought.

I think a person's heterosexuality or homosexuality or bisexuality is based on their awareness, on what they perceive a person to be. Whether that is through their sense of smell, sight, touch, or knowledge of the other person's biological reality, it's their awareness that defines their sexuality.

So, if a man knows a transwoman is a transwoman, and is still attracted to her, I agree with you, he is likely bisexual.

If he isn't put off by their trans status, then I wouldn't necessarily say he's bisexual, I'd say he's open minded and willing to experiment with and test his sexuality and boundaries perhaps. I think active attraction is important in defining someone's sexuality, not simply the lack of revulsion.

If a man believes a transwoman is a biological woman, he's thinking of a biological woman when he sleeps with her. So I think the man would be considered straight still. And the transwoman should be considered a selfish liar.

Lately, I've thought a lot about this from my own perspective. I'm female, and while I think women can be beautiful, I feel no attraction to them at all. I can say that in terms of aesthetics, I think the female form is more pleasing than the male form, but the male form draws me to it. Ruby Rose in Orange is the New Black was attractive to me. Her character in the show gave me a very boyish feel and I was drawn to that. So I thought, am I bisexual now? Well, the second I consider what's underneath her clothes, and it matches what's underneath mine, I lose all attraction to her. Men are different from me. Their bodies are different and mysterious and alluring because of that. It isn't just the presence of a penis or their flatter chests, but the fact that their bodies are different from mine. No matter what you change on the surface, a male body will remain different from my female body. That difference matters to me when it comes to attraction.

A transman can look as manly as possible, but knowing there's a female body there that is essentially the same as mine in the way it works, is an immediate turn off. If a transman lied about being trans and I somehow managed to not notice it either, it wouldn't make me bisexual. It would make them a liar.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-06T09:33:42+00:00

And it sounds her boyfriend didn't care that while he was enjoying himself, she was suffering. Smh.

I don't get such men. Isn't their sexual experience diminished by seeing their partner not enjoy the activity? On the one hand it seems like it's brag-worthy for men to be great at sex and give women orgasms, and on the other hand women are told it's normal for them to experience pain during sex and men keep going even when their partner is in pain.

I read somewhere once that a man suggested anal sex to his partner because they didn't have a condom. Like that is the only alternative. Nothing must get in the way of the male orgasm.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-06T09:25:49+00:00

Any guy who thinks the words "too feminist" is showing a giant red flag. I'm sorry you had to suffer him, and he'll likely continue to be a jerk to the women he meets. It really sucks how so many men abuse their physical and societal advantages :(

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-06T09:21:10+00:00

I didn't say it in my previous reply. I realized it after I saw another reply. I'm sorry you had to go through such violence at the hands of a man you probably trusted.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-06T05:25:58+00:00

I'm not replying to the bits about my question because I think you're not listening and I don't care to try and make you listen.

But, I wanted to let you know that I don't actually disagree with anything you've said, I just think most of it is irrelevant to my question. My only major point of disagreement with you would be that I don't think western women are as supported by men in the work of child rearing as you seem to think, but I agree things are more balanced than they used to be, and much much better than for women in other places in the world.

I'm surprised that you perceive my telling you that I don't think you're getting what I'm trying to talk about and I don't want to spend my energy on a post I made on things I didn't ask, as a "stomp off". Perhaps you'd prefer if I said let's agree to disagree about the topic I tried to discuss. If so, please accept that from me. I don't think it applies so I didn't use it. Others in the responses have disagreed, and I'm okay with that. My friend didn't agree with me either.

Let's let it be now. Thanks

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-05T18:27:19+00:00

Thank you :) I'll check it out

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-05T17:51:13+00:00

I agree completely as well.

And I think this is what most laypeople also believe when they support trans-rights. That trans people are people and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. That is all that's relevant to any fight for rights - their humanity, which should never come into question.

Insisting they are men or women when they're not biologically so, is not about rights. It's some other trip they're on.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-05T17:41:40+00:00

Those are some sobering numbers :( Learning all of this has been shocking and upsetting. Do you happen to know why the incarceration rate has such a wide range of 19-65%? Shouldn't it be something like a single number like it is for the general US population?

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-05T17:31:23+00:00

Hah, I just had a thought. Every time a dude asks for anal sex, the woman should enthusiastically agree and then bring out a dildo and ask him to turn around. Let's see how they like that!

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-05T17:11:08+00:00

I think I completely agree with this comment :)

Perhaps where I struggle is more with the issue of how to encourage knowing and establishing your boundaries (girls as a whole need this more), and respecting boundaries (boys as a whole need this more), while at the same time not making the topic of sex and kinks and fantasies some sort of taboo that can't be discussed. Like you said, it's a more nuanced discussion, and I feel a bit afraid and lost in discussing it. Thank you for bringing it up :)

Also, yes my friend is a pretty bad-ass, strong-willed person :) though she's definitely come to this point after going through other more vulnerable times.

Which reminds me of another issue that bothers me in this vanilla shaming tendency. I think it's likely to hurt those who're already traumatised, more.
I've a different friend who tends to be less strong-willed, has a difficult history with men, including some abuse, and has been affected by society's narrative of "unwed women are worthless". She was convinced by a guy she was seeing to have sex with him multiple times, without protection. She didn't want to, but she felt she had to please him, because he kept making it about how she's being difficult and it would be so much better without condoms. This man was able to push her to violate her own boundaries because she's already weak with holding them. This relationship and that she kept agreeing to doing it his way weighs on her now, several years later.

It's not the same thing, but I think similar mechanisms are at play.

A lot of people, who are already carrying hurts, will give in and do things they're not comfortable with, because the need to be accepted and to please is strong in them, and then the effects will weigh on them and further hurt them.

I think all of this is hard to say without making it like I'm saying all non-vanilla sex is bad.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-05T16:39:59+00:00

LOL. This man seemed exactly like you describe. Unfortunately, my friend continued to see him for a bit though it was all super casual. She was seeing another guy with the same name "X" so we used to refer to this one as "Woke X" because he made such a show of his wokeness, and after a point it was obvious he thinks he's suuuuuch a gift to womenkind because he's a "feminist"!

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-05T16:33:36+00:00

"if they are asking, that's because they expect it" Exactly. They aren't asking thinking you'll enjoy it. They're asking thinking they'll enjoy it, and you're supposed to help them have a good time.

I can understand a man having curiosity, and perhaps he can share he's curious about this activity, not put a woman in the spot of saying yes or no.

They should try having some fucking empathy and consider whether they'd like to be on the receiving end of what they're asking. Nope. A man will "ask", and she then has to defend why she is not on-board with that.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-05T14:04:43+00:00

I almost completely agree with you. I'm not super sure where I've landed on other people doing consensual things in privacy.

What I know I'm super sure about is that shaming anyone for "vanilla" sex is the worst.

Very recently, a friend of mine was shamed by a so called feminist man she met on Tinder, using exactly this word - "vanilla". She said she hasn't tried anal sex and is also not interested in it, and he dismissively called her vanilla. She wasn't as incensed as I was about it, but after we'd discussed it a bit, she did think it warranted some push back. So she told him it isn't cool to shame her for her sex-related boundaries, and he said he "wasn't judging". Really? Why would you feel the need to call a prospective sex-partner boring, if not to judge them as a sex-partner? She then asked him if HE would want to be anally penetrated, since as a man he's got a prostate and will feel it more, and suddenly he was all defensive and "I'm vanilla too". Except he called only her vanilla to begin with when they were discussing sex, and admitted to his own vanillaness only after she pushed back the next time they talked.

It was so obvious he'd never even considered the question. As a straight-man he was so sure he should get to put his penis anywhere he wants to, and a woman who disagrees is being a boring stick in the mud. But his anus is obviously not in play.

This type of man uses "feminist" like a weapon to disarm women. I'm so mad even thinking about him again.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-05T13:19:21+00:00

Like worried19 says, most are probably picturing post-operative transsexuals. That is who I used to picture anytime I thought about trans-rights, up until a few months ago, when the whole JK Rowling flare-up happened, and I looked into it more. I thought of someone like Laverne Cox's character in Orange is the New Black. I didn't think of her as a woman, but she didn't seem dangerous to women either. I thought most people who're called "trans" are post-op. I think most people are good, kind souls and want others to be okay, and this has been hijacked by the TRAs.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-05T09:58:02+00:00

This is re-writing and obfuscating history. The Matrix movies are huge and to try and associate them with women creators is to paint a picture of a Hollywood that was so very welcoming and supportive of women creators. All the way back in 1999.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-04T08:51:36+00:00

My reply was to squintypreyeyes

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-04T08:50:25+00:00

Yes because I'm discussing attitudes towards the fact of the burden of pregnancy being on women.

Either way, even if it wasn't clear to you earlier, perhaps it can be now. If it's still not, I don't know what else to do. You're not engaging with the question I asked and are having an entirely different conversation. You're welcome to it, but I don't care to have that conversation so I'm done.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-04T08:46:56+00:00

It's irrelevant because the question isn't about how they'll parent, it's about how they will come to be adult humans who are in charge of a young human. I don't know whether you're being willfully obtuse or if this is genuinely not registering with you, but the topic I raised was simply how a child enters into the mix, not what happens after. Yes, lots of people don't really realize the enormity of having a kid and blah blah. That's not the topic here. I hope you get it. I will not engage with you on this anymore.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-03T17:06:50+00:00

You know, I kind of understand what you mean about men's attitudes about this. I don't think they're gross, but I do think there's a lot of entitlement on the male side of the equation. Men can't birth. No matter what, a man will need a female body to go through a difficult process, if he wants biological children. Why is this something all men feel like they're entitled to have, instead of something they hope to be lucky enough to have? Isn't this exactly what patriarchy is? That men feel they're entitled equally to have biological children? That's sort of where I've been hovering in my thinking over this topic.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-03T16:54:56+00:00

I don't disagree with you :)

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-03T16:51:52+00:00

I'm not an anti-natalist. Just decidedly childfree. I'd be happy to be your friend :) I do consider myself sort of contributing to the voluntary human extinction movement though. Maybe you've heard of it?

I agree, that if a man doesn't want to have children or use his sperm to create children, he shouldn't be pushed into it. No one should ever be coerced, tricked, or forced to participate in the creation of new human life.

I do believe that plenty of women are not put off by pregnancy. I'm horrified at the prospect of pregnancy, and growing up I thought everyone must be horrified and scared like I was. I also thought I had no choice and I would eventually have to be pregnant and have children, just like everyone else. Eventually I realized I didn't have to have kids, and in the process I found a lot of people want to and look forward to being pregnant, even when they know how hard it can be and the lasting impact it can have on their bodies. Confounds the crap outta me, but there it is.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-03T16:45:05+00:00

"Yes, that's true if we focus solely on the burdens imposed on women by pregnancy, childbirth and the post-partum period, and perhaps for as long as she breastfeeds."

Correct. That is the focus here.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-03T16:44:03+00:00

No offence, but a lot of this seems irrelevant.

First, the scenario consists of people who've agreed they want to be parents and are contending with the how of it. And the "asking for sperm" is relevant only in that context. That is literally all the man is required to do in creating a child.

Second, the woman would likely be seeking support from her partner, but that would be the case if they were adopting too. Couples undertake difficult endeavours and support each other. I don't know why that is relevant here.

Third, I've said nothing about the 18-20 years of parenting of how bright or stupid the people involved are, or how ready they are to have and raise children. All of that seems entirely irrelevant to the question I asked.

I do agree with you that a woman who views her male partner as simply a sperm donor isn't that much better than a man who views his female partner as simply a gestation vessel. I do think there's a difference though, even if minor. Because a woman might want to experience pregnancy. What's a man longing for? To watch a woman be pregnant?

Also, don't you think that in much of human society, outside of Saudi Arabia even, most of the work of child rearing and raising continues to fall on women? Even in the western world.

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-03T16:30:29+00:00

Sorry, I don't know how quoting works here.

To your first point: Yes, to me one choice seems worse than the other. "Asking" because they likely engage in sex and he's producing sperm anyway. "Demanding" because she doesn't want to be pregnant and he wants her to be pregnant and it'll have no material impact on him. I framed it as I see it, and so my bias of seeing one as worse than the other is apparent.

To your second point: I put that there not as what my opinion is, but what the hypothetical man's attitude seems like to me. I do find it incredibly misogynistic as well.

To your third point: Yes, I would hope so too

TalkToTheVoid · 2020-09-03T16:24:06+00:00

I don't think the examples are relevant to the question I asked, but I appreciate your thoughtfulness in responding. I'm not trying to suggest what anyone in my hypothetical should do. My thoughts and pondering are more about the attitudes that the choices I talked about reflect.

TalkToTheVoid